EDIT: (2-23-14) Follow-up Kent Ketter (deck tech video) plays Cedric's deck at SCG St. Louis (t16 decklists which include LOTS of Monsters decks); goes into top 8 as #1 seed but loses to Chris VanMeter playing Gruul Monsters.
Side note, any clue how to make "aether" show up with the hover mouse/card preview function?
I've played against my own red devotion deck, and at FNM this week. Unfortunately, my FNM match-ups were local jank, nothing to really report. So instead, here are some thoughts on the card choices.
Hero's Downfall and Dreadbore are sweet. People don't expect them, and they hit plenty that mizzium mortars just can't, my favorites being polukranos and boros reckoner. I originally tried dredge mangler over scavenging ooze. Both are good, but I think with the 4 coursers, ooze is better, because it doesn't compete with the 3 cmc slot. Also, scavenging for a huge ooze after a field wipe is something the mangler can't do. Using the mangler's "scavenge" ability is just not the same.
I tried underworld Cerberus as well. Hated it. If your opponent can afford to block it, he's more of a liability than a benefit, since their creatures come back, too. I don't really want them to recast that Fanatic of Mogis. If Cerberus has an open field, he should be Kalonian Hydra or Polukranos, since both of them grow, while the Cerberus does not.
Arbor Colossus is big, has reach, and goes monstrous to be even bigger.
Kalonian Hydra grows (sometimes immediately with Xenagod), and makes scooze or any already monstrous stuff grow, too. He demands an answer (which I like), but mostly, he's in there for the random turbo fog match ups. My local shop has a few of them. Last time I played one, I won with a 256/256 Hydra.
About the 4 Coursers. Courser + Domri, Courser + Chandra, or (living the dream) Courser + Domri + Chandra is a mountain of consistency, card advantage, and inevitability. So first I draw a card, now let me play that land off the top (gain some life), +1 Domri to draw that [creature], and +0 Chandra to cast that [whatever]. Mix in the 8 scry lands so I can tuck unneeded cards, and I basically get 2 extra cards every turn if I have Courser + Walker. It also blocks everything on the ground with less than 4 power. It is an engine, not a win-con, but my other 3 drop options are dredge mangler and witchstalker, neither of which help as much (imo).
I like Xenagos, the Reveler. He helps play those extra cards you get from Domri, or just ultimates to produce a whole field of fun. Xenagod is pretty crazy, too, but I think everyone is on the same page with him. I would like to add 1 more to the mainboard, and see how that plays.
Cedric's list is cool. Anyone tried Reaper of the Wilds?
Final thought, to combat top decking, I would run the black/red scry lands in R/G anyway. The Black splash is hella easy to do, and definitely expands the rather generic R/G list. I'm a fan.
*edit* I'll probably drop flesh // blood. It's a cute trick, but I think we have plenty of kill, and I can overrun my opponents with my monsters. I should probably have another utility card in the sideboard.
I dropped the Xenagos, the reveler and added in coursers, dropping the Fanatics also. I went 1-2 drop on fnm.
Mazes end, he managed to rev for the fogs at the right times, even when I could monstrous stormbreath. It was a super long game, we went to time on the 2nd game and he had the fog (again) on turn 5.
Round 2 was gruul. Game 1 he dropped 3 walkers in the first 5 turns, I should have gone to the face rather then get distracted and taking out the walkers. Went to time again in this match, my opponent was really slow and seriously would have called a judge if that had been something more serious then FNM.
Round 3 was a take on monoblack devotion brewed up with chromanticore.
Courser is definitely nice, as much as I hate the giving information aspect, it was pretty good.
I would actually be interested in testing Shadowborn Demon, probably cutting dreg manglers and/or witchstalkers.
I dropped the Xenagos, the reveler and added in coursers, dropping the Fanatics also. I went 1-2 drop on fnm.
Mazes end, he managed to rev for the fogs at the right times, even when I could monstrous stormbreath. It was a super long game, we went to time on the 2nd game and he had the fog (again) on turn 5.
I would actually be interested in testing Shadowborn Demon, probably cutting dreg manglers and/or witchstalkers.
I hate losing to mazes end, it seams like just luck half the time
Idk about shadowborn demon. I don't see many scenarios where it will stay on the field. It'll probably just kill something, then die too.
Next weekend is a PTQ and Gameday, so I'll be play alot of standard. I'm going to play test reaper of the wilds this weekend. If I don't like her, I'm just going to make 2 small changes to my list above:
-1 Scooze
-2 Flesh // Blood (from the sideboard)
+1 Xenagod
+1 Gruul Charm (to the side)
All things considered, this really is just a splash, but I think Golgari Charm and Dreadbore make it worth it. Besides, I've come to like the scry lands, so I'd run the temples of malice anyway. I might as well use the black, haha.
Hero's Downfall and Dreadbore are sweet. People don't expect them, and they hit plenty that mizzium mortars just can't, my favorites being polukranos and boros reckoner.
After losing to Gruul in top 8 again, I think I'll find a way to get the 3rd Dreadbore back into the main deck. The double-black casting cost on Hero's Downfall scares me ... is it not getting stranded in your opening hand?
I originally tried dredge mangler over scavenging ooze. Both are good, but I think with the 4 course
When I was using both Scavenging Ooze and Dreg Mangler, they filled very different niches in the deck - Dreg competes with Courser of Kruphix (or also Witchstalker in my build). I agree that the third Scavenging Ooze isn't necessary unless the amount of smaller aggro decks like monored or white weenie picks up.
If we didn't have so many options, I'd be fine with this card as a singleton - could be good out of the SB against monoblack but do we really have a slot for it?
Arbor Colossus is big, has reach, and goes monstrous to be even bigger.
I liked running 2 Arbor Colossus main in Gruul Aggressive Midrange right at the start of Theros standard - has triple green been an issue? I don't mind double in here - triple seems as tough as double black.
Kalonian Hydra grows (sometimes immediately with Xenagod), and makes scooze or any already monstrous stuff grow, too. He demands an answer (which I like)
I haven't tried it so you keep coming back and letting us know how it's working for you.
About the 4 Coursers. Courser + Domri, Courser + Chandra, or (living the dream) Courser + Domri + Chandra is a mountain of consistency, card advantage, and inevitability. ... It also blocks everything on the ground with less than 4 power. It is an engine, not a win-con, but my other 3 drop options are dredge mangler and witchstalker, neither of which help as much (imo).
EDIT: this response somehow was never typed or accidentally deleted - I was fine with 2 Courser of Kruphix; if I cut Witchstalker, I would probably go up to 3 copies.
I like Xenagos, the Reveler. He helps play those extra cards you get from Domri, or just ultimates to produce a whole field of fun. Xenagod is pretty crazy, too, but I think everyone is on the same page with him. I would like to add 1 more to the mainboard, and see how that plays.
Won't fault you for trying 2 copies - I'm going to leave it as a single copy for now as I can use the emblem from Garruk, Caller of Beasts to tutor it up.
Cedric's list is cool. Anyone tried Reaper of the Wilds?
Final thought, to combat top decking, I would run the black/red scry lands in R/G anyway. The Black splash is hella easy to do, and definitely expands the rather generic R/G list. I'm a fan.
Cedric's article has convinced me to try it again over Witchstalker? Temple of Malice has hopefully solved some problems in the manabase - not to mention going to 24 lands and having Courser of Kruphix to help stall and pseudo-accelerate into four and five drops.
*edit* I'll probably drop flesh // blood. It's a cute trick, but I think we have plenty of kill, and I can overrun my opponents with my monsters. I should probably have another utility card in the sideboard.
I miss the fun and explosiveness of Blood, but I wholeheartedly agree with your comment.
Lordpiglet: Let me know if you try Shadowborn Demon and it works for you - I'm hesitant about the casting cost and it doesn't do much against Desecration Demon
Will try to update my list taking into account Cedric Phillip's and Ari Lax's SCG articles and finally get around to trying to describe my rough sideboarding strategies ...
I do not have the patience to do the cool layers of quotes thing you did Moo, so I'll just lay it out.
1) No mana problems what so ever. I actually ran 3 arbor colossus and no Xenagod for an event, and that worked fine. You'll notice that I have the same number of Green to Red sources as a standard RG Monsters list, but I've tacked on black. If you can cast it in RG Monsters, you can cast it here.
2)Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall are in the deck to kill the seriously big scary stuff that doesn't drop until turn 4 onward. By then, I'll have hit the black. Keep in mind that Sylvan Caryatid produces black mana, too, so I have 9 land sources, and 4 black manadorks. So far it hasn't tripped me up. I definitely will keep 4 kills of some combination in the mainboard. Abrupt Decay is another option, too, but probably more for the sideboard.
3) I should try Garruk, Caller of Beasts. I like my current 6 walkers, 3 Xenagos, 3 Domri's and a Chandra. Chandra is basically Domri #4, since they're both mainly there to put creatures into my hand and then the battlefield. I think her +1 has potential to be useful. I'll never use her ult.
4) Flesh // Blood should be Gruul Charm, as I've mentioned in another post.
I'll keep ya'll posted after this weekend of testing, and then after the PTQ end of next week. I've been following the standard RG thread, too. Someone posted a splash black for golgari charm list and they tore him apart. I would not go back to playing standard RG, as it (at the absolute worst) doesn't change the core of the deck to run Black.
Ok, after reading Cedric Phillip's article a couple times and watching part of his stream the last two nights, I think I would evolve my deck more torwards his as some of his choices do make a lot of sense and are things I've tried in the past or thought about ... his deck seems better against Gruul Monsters as well which is seriously upticking in popularity (at least around here).
I've deicided Reaper of the Wilds is sort of like Falkenrath Aristocrat in this deck. It's a four power four-drop that makes combat interesting and can convert late game useless draws into something; Aristocrat can sacrifice a late game Elvish Mystic for an indestructible effect while Reaper just scrys the Elf away. Of course, it's not a perfect comparison as Reaper isn't nearly as aggressive without haste and is missing evasion.
If I were to go to FNM this week, here's what I think I would play (not sure what my next larger event would be yet):
Summary of Changes from loss in SCG IQ finals:
MAIN
-3 Witchstalker, -1 Xenagos, the Reveler for +2 Reaper of the Wilds, +1 Dreadbore, +1 Courser of Kruphix
Witchstalker has done a lot of work for me, but Gruul Monsters could push some of the UW/x and monoblack percentages down and Witchstalker gets outclassed quickly against Gruul ... so I'll pay a little extra mana for a bigger creature whose hexproof is conditional and also add in an extra Dreadbore to help me get to the mid/late game since my curve is a little higher now ... it's entirely possible that I could want another Reaper of the Wilds instead of having the Chandra, Pyromaster main, but I want to try it first. Courser blocks better than Witchstalker and helps you get lands out of the way of all the action in the deck; the incidental life gain is also somewhat helpful due to half of the manabase being shocklands. Also, recall I wanted a Xenagos, God of Revels in there, didn't have it, called an Underworld Cerberus good enough, lost to Xenagod in finals, and traded for the copy that beat me.
SIDEBOARD
-2 Skylasher, -3 Thoughtseize for +2 Hero's Downfall, +2 Rakdos's Return, +1 Underworld Cerberus
Skylasher seemed to help the monoblue match-up, but it only helps that match up - run even more removal and cross my fingers. Thoughtseize was always a little troubling because you can't afford the life-loss against an aggressive deck; I'm going to try the topdeck bomb Rakdos's Return instead to help finish games instead of trying to unreliably steal a card on an early turn. The Cerberus stays for another outing but moves to the sideboard.
EDIT: (2-22-14) 3-1 at FNM (fourth place) with wins over monoblack, Gruul Monsters (with Kalonian Tusker), and monored devotion but with more burn cards than usual in the main and my match loss was to an Esper Ephara aggro deck piloted by arguably the best player at my shop that finished in the top two - games were interesting - lost game 3 to an Ephara, God of the Polis that could attack off devotion being turned on from multiple copies of Detention Sphere - Reaper of the Wilds is much better now than when I first built the deck two months ago (or so). I largely credit Temple of Malice as it really helps with the mana to run a playset (if you don't want 8 Temples, trim copies of the Gruul one). I had been avoiding double-red for Stormbreath Dragon (only ran 2, now 3) at the time - which was probably just a mistake as Reaper can hold the ground while the Dragon flies over for the win. I still am fine with playing Witchstalker pre-BNG as it was about the same card in a metagame dominated by monoblue, monoblack, and UW/x control. However, Reaper is just so much better in the near mirror, and I firmly believe the top-tier now also includes Gruul Monsters variants. Hero's Downfall was fine to cast as two copies of the sideboard in limited action - if there are issues it can become either Putrefy, Ultimate Price (per Cedric Phillip's build), or Doom Blade. Some sort of instant speed removal is necessary, and I primarily want it for the near mirror to take out opposing Dragons, Ghor-Clan Rampager bloodrush targets, or something made giant by Xenagos, God of Revels. Thus, if Downfall is hard to cast, I'll probably switch it to Putrefy even though it costs two mana compared to the other options. Rakdos's Return was okay; I actually brought it in a near mirror and was able to hit them with x=4 while they had 5 cards in hand and were stuck at 3 mana to keep them from being able to recover once they did start drawing land; I had been playing Thoughtseize to rip apart a shaky keep in some match-ups games 2/3, but Return is definitely a mid-to-late game haymaker which is how Cedric Phillips as tuned his version. The Underworld Cerberus is probably just too cute and needs to be another Golgari Charm(?). I think I'm largely fine with the maindeck - I see Courser of Kruphix often enough with only two copies and Xenagod was fine as a singleton.
I see so the discussion has moved here. I see Cedrics list and I tried that sort of thing early on, but this isn't like last years Unfriendly Skies and I think Cedric is trying too hard to go there. What drew me to that deck (or independently to a very similar list lets say, as I basically came up with the list right at release of GTC and Cedric's early lists didn't start showing up til about a month and a half later) was following some principles mostly focused on the timing. I am huge proponent of working out the tempo of these aggro midrange decks. It's the whole difference between them working. People go "Oh it's, jund (or junk) just play all the good cards".. The reason Unfriendly Skies was good was the redundancy on 4 levels.
1. 4 mana on T3.. Elf, or Sage + BTE + (Falkenrath, or Ghor Clan).. with potential of 5 mana T3 (risky)
2. 8 Haste fliers in Falkenrath and Thundermaw to get past board stalls (even more if you consider Ghor Clan)
3. Flinthoof Boar + Dreg Mangler. Boar could be played off BTE or Elf.. meaning that no matter what you had a huge number of 3/3 hasters to get early damage in.
4. 6-7 I win sweep and hit cards in Thundermaw and Bonfire
In my opinion 1 and 3 are the most important. 3 is very much related to 1 mind you since the reason BTE was playable was because of Boar, being a worthwhile 2 or 3. The other 2's that fall in that category (like Lotleth Troll are not castable off BTE). 3 is so important is it was what made Thundermaw good enough. It made the big threats just big enough to do the job. If that was less successful maybe Thundermaw plan wouldn't have been good enough. There was a reason it didn't see much play initially. Every format has it's timing.
Now obviously in every format has it's tools as well. Generally when looking at these decks I use Zvi's Fires as a guide. Zvi's My Fires, Mythic Origins, and Hypermana Deckbuilding articles are must reads. However, Unfriendly Skies had less mana to work with so it has some different constraints that fringe on Brian Kibler Territory. Unfortunately the current Standard is even more constrained. So while this stuff doesn't completely apply I think you have to look at it from this perspective whenever you look to use green mana accelerants.
This is his 7 rules:
1. Your mana base, including your color, has to be ironclad.
2. You must be able to turn your mana cards into powerful weapons in their own right.
3. The threats you accelerate to must be able to win the game on their own.
4. The biggest threat must be powerful enough to overwhelm opponents.
5. You need a way to make your cards keep you alive against aggression.
6. Every card must either be mana or a threat.
7. You need a way to not die to mass removal.
Let's look at Unfriendly Skies..
1. We had the best mana in Standard in years.. As far as 3 color decks go it was solid.
2. Gyre Sage comes to mind here. The Elves weren't great but we did have a Kessig Wolf Run or 2. Elves also could sac to keep Falkenrath alive.
3. Falkenrath (plus any other body), Thundermaw,.. I mean these type of threats carried games. Not quite as big but our mana investment wasn't quite as much either (this deck had a decent aggro game). Domri could beat control single handedly almost.
4. Thundermaw and Bonfire (not really a threat, but it was a fireball) could be complete blow outs. They are strong enough to be do or die.
5. This deck was weak here.. We did not have a Loxodon Smiter, or Rhox War Monk. I ended up ultimately going to a 4 color build that splashed Boros Reckoner.. but this was the decks weakness for sure. Basically it was Bonfire or die in some places. (Loved Cedric's Bonfire chant).
6. Except for some Bonfires or like 2 Dreadbore. The bigger the ramp investment the less removal you can run. Domri being a threat and removal helps a lot here. But it's proportional. If you don't go super big you can play some non-threat, non-mana cards.. in these decks generally take the Mana Creatures(any creature you play for mana that is below it's threat curve.. ie KoTR doesn't count here since it's on curve, but Bordland does) + Lands + Removal and you shouldn't really be over 38-40.
7. Falkenrath Indestructible was huge for this, and Domri card advantage.
Ok.. that's all the past let's look at what we are doing here and what's our constraints.
1. We have to play Scry lands.. We only had 1 before,.. now we have 2.. It's getting close enough to be a decent mana base. Elvish Mystic has it's 12 sources. Double Green on T2 is handled there. However, if we want to lean on Mystic to go 1 to 3, we actually need to ensure we don't have to play that many lands tapped. The last format that wasn't an issue. Zvi felt in fires that the untapped lands were so important he did not play any even though it limited him to 4 GR dual lands where he could have had 8. I think in general this is a huge consideration. In a deck that plays Elf.. I don't think 8 Scry lands is the right number at all. I think 5 is about the max (seems Cedric's list also plays 5). Consider what that does to your mana colour consistency.
2. This is so hard in this format. We don't have much in the way of mana sinks. Mutavault isn't doing much. Any permanent that can do something dies too easily. This is what drew me to Archangel of Thune.. but it isn't doing much in your graveyard. In fact that's the key here the graveyard. I think the best way to leverage mana creatures is in the graveyard after they've had their use. This is why I like Lotleth Troll to discard extra creatures that don't matter late game. It's why I've been a proponent of Nighthowler. Scavenging Ooze and Varolz are excellent too albeit take more time to get online reasonably and aren't reusable (ie.. if they are dealt with you lose the bonus and then a second copy won't necessarily bring you back).
It's also why I like Bow of Nylea. It gives little things death touch and it let's you grow threats a bit. It's slow as molasses though on the building and is much better at forcing the last few bits of damage in, but it is versatile as a removal spell, and a way to stay alive against aggro.
Anyway this is a constant thought on my mind. The answer isn't as simple as Gyre Sage this time since we don't have Boar redundancy to make BTE good enough. My current thought is less mana dorks make sense. Courser is almost on curve in this format in the sense that if everything dies to removal it doesn't matter if the average 3 mana low value creature is a 4/4. Fanatics of Xenagos, Smiter, even Brimaz can't beat the 4 drops anyway so if these cards generally are going to eat a Doom Blade why not see if you can gain a life and draw a card first. So this is one of many reasons why I think Caryatid is a hard sell as a 4 of.
3. This is hard too. This is where I got stuck a lot although it's not as hard as the next one. I mean most of our threats can win games of magic. Like Polukranos is huge, Reaper can be hard to kill, Stormbreath can dodge problematic threats and fly over. What caught me the most inthis format is how tailored these have had to be in a sense, but in so every choice feels generic and only alright. Like Mistcutter Hydra is maindeckable, in the sense it's good against the blue decks (which can be problematic) and because a big haster is decent. Usually this card wouldn't be but it's at about the same rate as Stormbreath. So while I will say we have these there are no clear winner.
Stormbreath Dragon is so close to right, but it falls short in that it doesn't One Shot Elspeth. I don't know if that was intentional but it means that a card that should be a control killer doesn't even prevent them from tapping out to play their finisher. This timing issue is a huge huge issue with Dragon. It's compounded by Desecration Demon a bigger flier. Stormbreath being vulnerable to black means that generally that is enough to put it on the backseat. Obviously a card like Mistcutter or any of our 5's aren't any better. Can't ever attack with Hydra or Archangel.. That's still passable mind you, given when you get to 7 you can monstrous but you have to wait. Or make Demon bigger still so Monstrous doesn't matter. I found in Archangel decks I could gain life in the interim and get bigger than demon. Basically I like to line up threat threat for threat with these sort of decks and none really stand out. Reaper with Deathtouch atleast trades when blocked and walls out ground creatures. Polukranos can trade similarly with a Demon when it monstrous .. or be bigger if it can kill something else. I should mention Arbor Colossus here. The card seems like a good one to one response answer but it still takes a lot of work. Like if say a Demon is already neutralizing your board (GW with Voice so far is the only deck I've played where I could win through tapping down Demon pretty regularly even from the opponent with a high life total), then they dont need to use their removal, which means what ever you play to follow up probably dies. Mind you having a sideboard full of removal doesn't work for these sort of decks either. You want to win with bodies (which brings up Ghor Clan.. more on that later).
In my opinion Polukranos and Reaper are the best threats in Standard to win games on their own. Like Polukranos against aggro or Master of Waves neutralizes strategies. The problem is you can't play Polukranos in multiples and Reaper isn't quite a big enough clock. Everything else is optional though in my opinion. Remember how I said earlier that Thundermaw was only as good as it was due to what lead up to it. Well.. we're slower out the gates and our 5 mana spells clock that tiny bit slower. Stormbreath is not nearly as good. If you can support the double red, it's the way to go for sure, but it isn't worth constraining your mana if you have other options.
4. Similar to 3, and unfortunately this is just where we fall short. Reaper does not overwhelm the opponent. It pushes us to lean on things like Ghor Clan or Flesh and Blood, which are awkward often in a format where so many things just die. Thragtusk if anything made playing removal less desirable. Here everyone will have the answer unless they don't. What I mean is for everyone of those awesome hands that it works there will be ones where it causes you to lose basically. What's worse is it's hard to judge because the play skill of your opponent is even more relevant here. Against worse opponents these sort of tactics will overperform. Ever play against the UW Heroic deck? Or remember Infect? I've had those rounds where game 1 they just nut draw you and you realize there was no way to win unless you had the removal spell at the right time and we don't play enough of them. However, I find on average I win against those decks. They rarely get those draws and if you are careful you can pick them apart.. often with maybe one removal spell, not a dozen. I think the problem with Ghor Clan especially is that this is a format where Scry is good.. I mean seriouslly it's good. Good enough that Reaper's ability is relevant (where it wouldn't be in most Standards), that Courser is a premier card where elsewhere it would be laughed at. Throwing cards away into things that lack permanence are not worth it. I mean Troll is a throw away perhaps but it has some resilience.
So what can we do to overwhelm the opponent. I tried Underworld Cerberus initially in Theros Standard but it's not it. Xenagos, the god is one thing that's reasonable and I've excited about. Garruk, Caller of Beasts is reasonable (but slow) and requires a large mana investment.. Basically Kiblers Fear the Reaper deck had nothing here and that's why it failed. We have some better options. I'm not sure anything completely does it. It's again why I like Nighthowler. It's not a great card always but it's big game. Especially on a trampler or flier, or creature with protection. All that being said I do like Blood since it can double as removal. It just is awkward against bigger creatures and Master of Waves, and depending on your other removal choices those are 2 creatures that are problematic anyway so playing more removal that doesn't deal with them well is tiresome.
5. Atleast that isn't a huge problem here with Caryatid, and more so with Courser coming into the mix. There is some need for other removal perhaps but I think we have access. In these colours removal isn't a problem and it's fairly consistent. Whereas in Unfriendly Skies Bonfire could be iffy.. everything dies these days and nothing is particularly powerful except critical mass. So Anger or Mortars or Gruul charm (against Mono blue) or whatever else will do the trick. I don't think this is a concern really at all.
6. We're pretty good here. I think Thoughtseize is wrong for this deck atleast main because the few spells we need, need to impact (mind you postboard especially against decks like this, it's amazing, especially ones that play more ramp). Also most lists don't play enough black to support it properly. I like Dreadbore a lot other than it doesn't kill Master or Blood Baron, but Mortars handles that. Actually I think the concern for Blood Baron might be generally overstated. I actually don't particularly like Mortars. I mean it's fine but relying on it late game is not good enough. It's fine against some decks but the decks where you go long to overload it matters a lot less.. I mean you can ramp to it, but again having a ton of Ramp seems, problematic for consistency when the top end is guarenteed to be that effective. I think Cedric's list has too many Mortars. But I also think he has too many Carytids and Coursers. I've been playing against GR and GRb variants online so much recently and I keep on coming back to the fact with Bow I can power through. I guess Gruul Charm would do it too. But the problem is with all the Carytids I generally keep the tempo initiative.
7. Yeah.. well.. there is Domri/Xenagos except well Esper plays 8 cards that kill it outright.. There is Troll, there is bestow creatures.. There is Golgari Charm. It's basically a struggle. We don't actually need that much mana so it isn't like we need to depend on mana dorks that much. So I think it's fine. A little big haste goes pretty far.
Anyway all that being said here is my current list. It's more of a continuation of what I was doing in the Domri Jund thread but it's relevant here. It's much closer to mixing this deck with like Kibler's Fear the Reaper deck. The biggest advantage I find is it can be much faster. I've been saying Dreg Mangler is so so key to the timing of these decks. It's what makes my list different but it also wins me a lot of games. The scavenge can further push the mine is bigger game which works very well in the situations where the board gets cluttered. A big deathtouch creature is very problematic on a CA perspective when blocking, however, a Stormbreath Dragon can be kept off for a turn by a lowly Skylasher. Don't get me wrong Stormbreath is better than Mistcutter Hydra which I main deck, but I don't play enough red to support it, and where it matters the differences are surprisingly few. I think double black is much more relevant where we are weak.
Oh and I'm still on Skylasher as I find it fairly relevant almost everywhere except other green decks.. Mind you other green decks are gaining popularity. Mainly that it takes so much pressure off removal. Otherwise I'd need Abrupt Decay for those Nightveil Specters and Chandra's Pheonix's .. or even Soldier of Pantheon. I was trying other 2's but being able to play a scry land T2 after and elf, then on T3 attack for 6 can be big .. alot of decks are so so slow, that having any 2 that can attack is reasonable. Although I imagine a Caryatid plan cares less for it.
I've been impressed with Reaper of the wilds and with scavenging ooze. I can see using lotleth Troll over the ooze. You can pitch unused elfs, skylashers or trolls to it, and it has regenerate. I may miss the life gain, and I like that ooze shuts down random "let me grab this with my whip" tech. They're all over my local meta. I do not understand Exava, or the lack of Stormbreath's at all. A 4/4 flyer that can become monstrous is definitely going in my deck. I also think you should always pack spot removal.
I've been getting the crap kicked out of me by black decks. Thoughtseize + Lifebane Zombie ruins my opening hands, and I can't block the zombie because of intimidate. Any recommendations of creatures I can try to get around that? It what I've struggled with the most.
I am not a fan of Bow of Nylea. It's just too slow for me, and my problem has not been making my threats lethal, it's been keeping threats on the field period. I've decreased my number of mana dorks and added the Reaper of the wilds, just to have more threats that can hit the table.
I didn't run JUND this week at FNM / TCGPlayer appreciation. I ran Charging Badger / Hidden Hydra, which unfortunately has no game against mono black (store is filled with it and I lost both matches 0-2). I went 4-0 against aggro and ended up 10th out of almost 40 people. It wasn't spectacular, but since I started 1-2 it was okay. My buddy took it down 6-0 with r/g monsters though.
After watching the SCG stream yesterday, and today, I was impressed with the performance of the new list as Kent Ketter went 9-0-2 with Cedrics lists (slightly different sideboard).
Personally, I'd like a couple gore clans and/or xenagod in the main. I'd also like to test Mogis. I'll probably sleeve up Jund to test on Wednesday between league rounds in preparation for this weekend.
I've been impressed with Reaper of the wilds and with scavenging ooze. I can see using lotleth Troll over the ooze. You can pitch unused elfs, skylashers or trolls to it, and it has regenerate. I may miss the life gain, and I like that ooze shuts down random "let me grab this with my whip" tech. They're all over my local meta. I do not understand Exava, or the lack of Stormbreath's at all. A 4/4 flyer that can become monstrous is definitely going in my deck. I also think you should always pack spot removal.
I've been getting the crap kicked out of me by black decks. Thoughtseize + Lifebane Zombie ruins my opening hands, and I can't block the zombie because of intimidate. Any recommendations of creatures I can try to get around that? It what I've struggled with the most.
I am not a fan of Bow of Nylea. It's just too slow for me, and my problem has not been making my threats lethal, it's been keeping threats on the field period. I've decreased my number of mana dorks and added the Reaper of the wilds, just to have more threats that can hit the table.
You are right about Stormbreath.. I pretty much need it to beat control. However, I'm not having issues at all in those other matchups. The problem comes in that the resilient creatures generally are a bit smaller bodied for their costs, and we can't keep up a one for one removal game anyway. So I've been destroying black decks. Mind you I have to consider that I even want some amount of removal against control game 1 so I'm probably pushing Bow a bit too hard. It's a lot of the reason I play cards like Exava or Dreg Mangler which looks small bodied on paper but carry the type of momentum that it's very hard for anyone to get back in front of. Then you play Bow and it's GG. It's this awkward Tension between the sheer power of cards and their resiliency. Haste is about the only thing sort of linking these. But generally we are already in awkward ground in that we have to rely on stuff like Caryatid to play the top end people want to.. I play a lot less top simply because the timing is off. Have you ever played an Aggressive midrange deck with Farseek? Caryatid works the same sort of way. It's fine, but it means it's the 4 drops that soak up the initial removal. Any deck with Discard will clean you out. Thoughtseize forces us fundamentally to go smaller if anything. Lifebane Zombie is just more of that. However, Dreg Mangler (especially with Bow) beats Zombie for instance. I got so pumped on Bow when I took a month or so break from Jund and was play GW splash black. It's better there mind you since Voice takes so little work to get going.
It seems the only way to reconcile both parts for me is to put in my removal slightly, cut a bow, and find a way to support double red without losing my ability to play Troll, and Manger.. I'm not sure if it's possible. I like my access to black. Bringing in things like Thoughtseize for instance do a huge number in green mirrors. And troll often wants double black by T3.
As for you probably need to down curve just a little. The deck is like mana - 4 drops. Doing so little the first couple turns especially if the dorks go down is hard. You need atleast a couple good things to slam on T2 that matter on T2.. Domri off Elf is good, Courser is ok but better when you miss a land drop, Caryatid doesn't put on any pressure and probably runs your 4 into removal, Ooze is literally a Bear at this point of the game and is dealt with easily. 10 4 drops and 7 5 drops is fine and in this format you will get there, but it might be a slow road that is very disruptable if you don't curve out properly.
I have played a ton of GR monsters over the last month and a half, including making top 8 of a 292 player tcgplayer.com Diamond Event just 2 weeks ago. I have recently begun experimenting with splashing black for Jund monsters and have been having a lot of success. This build is heavily patterned on e Gr monsters decks I've had a lot of success with, and the black splash is pretty light. That said, I plan on playing something close to is 75 at GP Cincinnati in March, the deck is insanely good.
I'm not totally sold yet on all the Skylashers in the board, but the mono-blue matchup is definitely the worst of the major archetypes for us, and I don't want to auto-scoop to it at a large event like a GP. I had cut Scooze from earlier versions of GR Monsters, but with the added shock lands, I like having the life gain in the main, and he's always welcome against aggro decks anyway. Otherwise I pretty much like all the slots in the main deck and sideboard. Having main deck Rakdos's Return in a ramp deck is just sick in this format, and one of the big draws for the black splash. Otherwise, Ultimate Price just deals with all the threats we have trouble with (Desecration Demon, Polukranos, Master of Waves, Pack Rat) with the single exception of Boros Reckoner. Since Rw devotion is not very big right now, I'm willing to give up on that one, although in a different metagame I could be convinced to find room for some abrupt decays somewhere in the 75 to help deal with him (perhaps in place of the charms - both cards kill detention spheres).
You are right about Stormbreath.. I pretty much need it to beat control. However, I'm not having issues at all in those other matchups. The problem comes in that the resilient creatures generally are a bit smaller bodied for their costs, and we can't keep up a one for one removal game anyway. So I've been destroying black decks. Mind you I have to consider that I even want some amount of removal against control game 1 so I'm probably pushing Bow a bit too hard. It's a lot of the reason I play cards like Exava or Dreg Mangler which looks small bodied on paper but carry the type of momentum that it's very hard for anyone to get back in front of. Then you play Bow and it's GG. It's this awkward Tension between the sheer power of cards and their resiliency. Haste is about the only thing sort of linking these. But generally we are already in awkward ground in that we have to rely on stuff like Caryatid to play the top end people want to.. I play a lot less top simply because the timing is off. Have you ever played an Aggressive midrange deck with Farseek? Caryatid works the same sort of way. It's fine, but it means it's the 4 drops that soak up the initial removal. Any deck with Discard will clean you out. Thoughtseize forces us fundamentally to go smaller if anything. Lifebane Zombie is just more of that. However, Dreg Mangler (especially with Bow) beats Zombie for instance. I got so pumped on Bow when I took a month or so break from Jund and was play GW splash black. It's better there mind you since Voice takes so little work to get going.
It seems the only way to reconcile both parts for me is to put in my removal slightly, cut a bow, and find a way to support double red without losing my ability to play Troll, and Manger.. I'm not sure if it's possible. I like my access to black. Bringing in things like Thoughtseize for instance do a huge number in green mirrors. And troll often wants double black by T3.
As for you probably need to down curve just a little. The deck is like mana - 4 drops. Doing so little the first couple turns especially if the dorks go down is hard. You need atleast a couple good things to slam on T2 that matter on T2.. Domri off Elf is good, Courser is ok but better when you miss a land drop, Caryatid doesn't put on any pressure and probably runs your 4 into removal, Ooze is literally a Bear at this point of the game and is dealt with easily. 10 4 drops and 7 5 drops is fine and in this format you will get there, but it might be a slow road that is very disruptable if you don't curve out properly.
I agree on downing my curve. I guess the only logical cut left is arbor colossus. I originally played RG devotion, and that deck hinged on colossus, so I'm a little sad to see him go.
Not sure if I can get Rakdos's Return by this weekend, but I have had a few games where I slammed my opp down to only a few health, only to have to do it all over again thanks to ooze or blood baron. RR would definitely stop that mess.
You are right about Stormbreath.. I pretty much need it to beat control. However, I'm not having issues at all in those other matchups. The problem comes in that the resilient creatures generally are a bit smaller bodied for their costs, and we can't keep up a one for one removal game anyway. So I've been destroying black decks. Mind you I have to consider that I even want some amount of removal against control game 1 so I'm probably pushing Bow a bit too hard. It's a lot of the reason I play cards like Exava or Dreg Mangler which looks small bodied on paper but carry the type of momentum that it's very hard for anyone to get back in front of. Then you play Bow and it's GG. It's this awkward Tension between the sheer power of cards and their resiliency. Haste is about the only thing sort of linking these. But generally we are already in awkward ground in that we have to rely on stuff like Caryatid to play the top end people want to.. I play a lot less top simply because the timing is off. Have you ever played an Aggressive midrange deck with Farseek? Caryatid works the same sort of way. It's fine, but it means it's the 4 drops that soak up the initial removal. Any deck with Discard will clean you out. Thoughtseize forces us fundamentally to go smaller if anything. Lifebane Zombie is just more of that. However, Dreg Mangler (especially with Bow) beats Zombie for instance. I got so pumped on Bow when I took a month or so break from Jund and was play GW splash black. It's better there mind you since Voice takes so little work to get going.
It seems the only way to reconcile both parts for me is to put in my removal slightly, cut a bow, and find a way to support double red without losing my ability to play Troll, and Manger.. I'm not sure if it's possible. I like my access to black. Bringing in things like Thoughtseize for instance do a huge number in green mirrors. And troll often wants double black by T3.
As for you probably need to down curve just a little. The deck is like mana - 4 drops. Doing so little the first couple turns especially if the dorks go down is hard. You need atleast a couple good things to slam on T2 that matter on T2.. Domri off Elf is good, Courser is ok but better when you miss a land drop, Caryatid doesn't put on any pressure and probably runs your 4 into removal, Ooze is literally a Bear at this point of the game and is dealt with easily. 10 4 drops and 7 5 drops is fine and in this format you will get there, but it might be a slow road that is very disruptable if you don't curve out properly.
I agree on downing my curve. I guess the only logical cut left is arbor colossus. I originally played RG devotion, and that deck hinged on colossus, so I'm a little sad to see him go.
Not sure if I can get Rakdos's Return by this weekend, but I have had a few games where I slammed my opp down to only a few health, only to have to do it all over again thanks to ooze or blood baron. RR would definitely stop that mess.
You won't be happy with troll as you don't have enough black sources. It's part of the whole dilemma really. It's hard to make GR reasonably aggressive in that the 2 and 3 drops aren't really doing it. Like BTE is too low impact but everything has strict colour requirements that pushes the boundary there. As I ssaid the issue is more fundamental to playing with caryatid. I actually think 3 drops is how I'd want to fill that curve. Keep the 3 oozes there just isn't a better 2 with those colour requirements. I am not sure if there is a 3 that will do it. Obviously I like Dreg Mangled but maybe Varolz works better with the tempo and the weakness to black.
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This post is more of a thought experiment than anything. Keep that in mind when reading.
Thinking about BTE got me thinking what if there was a way to get it to be worthwhile. Obviously Bile Blight puts it in weaker place. I don't think Gyre Sage is any good since its either slow or decks pack enough removal for basically anything. Still BTE + other 2 is still the closest GR gets to overwhelming removal early where GB has Troll and GW Voice. Mind you we could always BTE + Caryatid but that was never quite good enough.
So how to make BTE worth the slots? First we need a reason to play it beyond the obvious early board presence. How about another way to get 3 mana on T2? I mean that could be worth it. We only have Mystic which produces green. Springleaf Drum T1 into BTE basically gives us BoP. Even without BTE we make any 2 drop a poor man's Caryatid(no hexproof, although it still can attack when desired/have it's own value). Still that's 2 cards. So not sure how many Drums are playable. However that'd require cutting Caryatid to reduce air. Although I think the potential to go 1-3 and change the curve slightly makes 23 lands more realistic. Having an early game like that might even be enough to push Ghor Clan.
Other ways to leverage BTE is Devotion. Does Nykthos become better than Mutavault? Is Xenagos, God of Revels better? Varolz seems pretty good too in some matchups making BTE sacs and scavenges powerful. Again this isn't really anything we didn't try before, so I guess the question is if Springleaf Drum is a big enough game changer and if we have the wealth of 3 drops worth playing now?
I've been testing a heavier GR list (since don't need to support Troll) and it seems to be doing well, but it's hard to tell if it's any better Yet.
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This post is more of a thought experiment than anything. Keep that in mind when reading.
Thinking about BTE got me thinking what if there was a way to get it to be worthwhile. Obviously Bile Blight puts it in weaker place. ...
So how to make BTE worth the slots? First we need a reason to play it beyond the obvious early board presence. How about another way to get 3 mana on T2? I mean that could be worth it. We only have Mystic which produces green. Springleaf Drum T1 into BTE basically gives us BoP. ... So not sure how many Drums are playable. However that'd require cutting Caryatid to reduce air. Although I think the potential to go 1-3 and change the curve slightly makes 23 lands more realistic. Having an early game like that might even be enough to push Ghor Clan.
Other ways to leverage BTE is Devotion. Does Nykthos become better than Mutavault? Is Xenagos, God of Revels better? Varolz seems pretty good too in some matchups making BTE sacs and scavenges powerful. Again this isn't really anything we didn't try before, so I guess the question is if Springleaf Drum is a big enough game changer and if we have the wealth of 3 drops worth playing now?
Here's my first response to your thought experiment without any testing ... and do you want to force Pain Seer into the deck if you're playing Springleaf Drum and Ghor-Clan Rampager? Are we lowering the curve to a very aggressive deck similar to that of Jund Aggro right after Gatecrash (I think we were both on it at that point if I recall correctly)?
Sideboard would include things like Skylasher, Abrupt Decay, Golgari Charm, and instant speed black removal. This is the Jund Blitz Aggro deck I penciled out when I saw the BNG-spoilers - not taking your ideas and trying to modify Jund Monsters as you requested.
I also did some pain seer sketches. Tried to work Xathrid Necromancer in there. But someone quite rightly pointed out how few of my spells I could play off BTE T2. I figured if I had Pain Seer I'd want to T2 it anyway. So maybe that wasn't bad to just T3 BTE into something. The problem mind you with these sort of decks is limited reach. No matter how many cards you draw there is a point where you go from not being able to play your threats fast enough due to mana constraints to very little your drawing matters. All aggro suffers from this to some degree but this sort of list lacks the reach of red and the anthems of white and the resilience of black aggro generally. I was never a huge fan of Experiment Jund admittedly and spent most of time in that thread trying to endorse a Gyre Sage to bigger threats strategy.
Mind you I can't really say if what I'm proposing is very good.I just know if 8 mana dorks existed in this format at 1cmc, especially one that fixed colors we'd have a completely different format. It'd tear it wide open. So my thought was more on how to get more Elvish Mystics. I realize we can just play Caryatid but Caryatid will never attack nor play a 3 drop on T2.I'm thinking 23 lands, 4 Mystics, 3(maybe 2) drums, 4 BTE, 3 other 2 drops castable off BTE, as a base.8 3 drops, 8 4 drops, 4 5 drops, + 3 flex slots. Realistically the deck can't play 8 real 4's so it would likely have some number of Ghor Clans.At least one of the flex spots would have to be an over the top sort of effect, and at least 2 would need to be solid removal.Anyway that's roughly it I build by curve and mana tempo more than cards. I will likely try this in every GRx colour combination as usual if I see any promise. I think the concept might be too cute though. Springleaf Drum feels a little like Abundant Growth. Basically a card that looks almost good enough but requires certain card pool considerations as to whether the effect is worth the card. I just feel a deck that can T2 Dreg Mangler most games would be quite a force. Whether this is realistic (3 mana on T2) enough to outweigh this much air I'm justifiably skeptical of, but exploring it seems reasonable to me.
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Updated my GR/b version after reading Kent Ketter's article on Jund Monsters, particularly him singing the praises of Reaper in the pseudo-mirror. However, I'm not sold on totally cutting Rampager from the deck. I think I'm going to try this:
The one-of Scavenging Ooze in the main seems a bit strange, but I still want the life-gain it offers, and I didn't want the curve to get too high. With Reapers offering even more scrying, I feel comfortable running 24 lands plus all 8 mana guys and not getting flooded too much.
Mind you I can't really say if what I'm proposing is very good.I just know if 8 mana dorks existed in this format at 1cmc, especially one that fixed colors we'd have a completely different format. It'd tear it wide open. So my thought was more on how to get more Elvish Mystics. I realize we can just play Caryatid but Caryatid will never attack nor play a 3 drop on T2.I'm thinking 23 lands, 4 Mystics, 3(maybe 2) drums, 4 BTE, 3 other 2 drops castable off BTE, as a base.8 3 drops, 8 4 drops, 4 5 drops, + 3 flex slots. Realistically the deck can't play 8 real 4's so it would likely have some number of Ghor Clans.At least one of the flex spots would have to be an over the top sort of effect, and at least 2 would need to be solid removal.Anyway that's roughly it I build by curve and mana tempo more than cards. I will likely try this in every GRx colour combination as usual if I see any promise. I think the concept might be too cute though. Springleaf Drum feels a little like Abundant Growth. Basically a card that looks almost good enough but requires certain card pool considerations as to whether the effect is worth the card. I just feel a deck that can T2 Dreg Mangler most games would be quite a force. Whether this is realistic (3 mana on T2) enough to outweigh this much air I'm justifiably skeptical of, but exploring it seems reasonable to me.
@Ryan - I completely agree with you on the point about if 4x more 1x CMC dorks existed, this could be a completely different format. It's hard to not compare the previous standard's green decks and how 8 mana dorks had such a tremendous impact on ALL the green decks...from GR Kibler aggro-midrange, to even Reanimator sporting the full 7-8.
I also absolutely love your posts and am a huge fan of your work, I never invested much myself into Jund last season, but I very strongly appreciate the work you (and countless others here) put in, exploring all the possible changes at multiple parts of curves.
That being said, I think I have to caution against/disagree with you, on going in with a deck that wants to jam Dreg Manglers on T2. I see nothing wrong with Dreg Mangler at all, and maybe that aggressive strategy could work, not even looking at the field. What I am going to point out though, is how the deck is very stacked against this kind of thing, in a 3 color shell as you obviously know.
A very similar complaint I have against ALL G/R decks at the moment - I'm not a fan of 4x of Domri Rade, and usually run 3 copies. 3 drops in general just are not where I want to be right now - you have a significantly lower chance of that T1 mana guy, (since we don't have 8 copies) and you MUST play a second land ON COLOR in order to achieve that magical Turn Two Three Drop. T2 Domri is great...when it happens. The vast majority of the time, it doesn't.
It seems like a lot of things just have to go right. That's also, not taking into account, a VAST MAJORITY of the games where I'm on the draw, I really enjoy keeping 1 or 2 land hands, if it's a scry land. That aside, sometimes the correct play early on is to scry in the early turns in order to ensure/better your chances of not missing lands. You have a great outlook and willingness to try the Springleaf Drum + BTE route, and I'd absolutely love to be proven wrong and see it work.
The other thing though - G/R Monsters as a deck isn't really that "fast", and even in comparison to decks like MUD - both decks absolutely require a good 3-4 turns of "setup" whether it's mana development, or getting a planeswalker online. Most games, G/R Monsters takes it's time deploying one for one high impact threats.
Dreg Mangler almost feels interchangable with Fanatic of Xenagos, to me, personally, and Lotleth Troll as we all know is frequently a 3 drop in disguise, asking for BB. I also strongly miss Falkenrath Aristocrat, and that to me, was the kind of super hard hitting + evasive 4 drop you wanted to follow up Dreg Mangler with in "fast+big aggro jund".
I'm not in a position to make any critiques on your list, and trust that you have reasons behind each card in there/not in there. The general sentiment I'm of the opinion of, it's far more consistent at the moment in this format to just go for the T3 4 drop.
Considering all of these things, it seems to me a "Big Jund" route may be worth exploring, as trying to force a FAST and aggressive tri-color deck is difficult to do (deck consistency fights itself sometimes) regardless of if it's the thing to do/well positioned at the moment. But a slower, bigger deck? A slower deck can take full advantage of the extra scrys from both Reaper and the additional scry land. The argument can almost always be made, that with the slow mana we have right now, it's going to favor a slower tri-color deck, barring some very unique circumstances - if you can crack the Burning Drum Curve, for instance.
EDIT: Aside - Love the way the lists are looking in here, and have been following Ketter's work too on the evolution of splashing black into "G/R Monsters". I'm firmly of the opinion Moo is dead on in saying you're essentially giving up 2 Mutavaults to add a black splash to this deck, and in my mind, that's a pure upgrade, as I never needed the Mutavaults to begin with. Some of the most recent GR Monsters lists are actually omitting Mutavault entirely and claiming they'd rather have the early consistency/up their R source count. Black splash GR Monsters is something I'm happy to get on board with, and will look at exploring a "bigger" or "devotion" version with the B splash.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Ok, thought I'd share my observations from the past few days of testing.
1. On Springleaf Drum: As anticipated it was a bit too awkward. In most cases not really anymore awkward than Caryatid, but the number of times early it just sat dormant most of the game was not trivial. The fixing was good and ramp was decent. It especially excelled in low land situations. I actually still like it better than Caryatid except in one situation. Drum doesn't play well with Mystic on draws where they are the only low draws. I try to remind myself it's actually the BTE that replaces Caryatid and the drum some removal or expensive drop in other lists that I couldn't play there anyway, but it is sort of feel bad. Ultimately I think it means 2 is the max and Caryatid at that low of quantity is probably better(it's multiple Caryatid's that are awkward).
2. On Ghor-Clan Rampager: Yeah still couldn't make it good enough. Even with some blood trickery. The timing is just wrong and the effect barely worth a card in most places. Games just don't play out that way. Bestow is pretty much completely better in this metagame. Mind Ghor Clan gives some evasion. Most Bestow doesn't. I mean the problem is Boon Satyr generally still leads to trades, Nighthowler is only good in high removal matchups, which have lessened due to green board decks finally being viable. Neither punch through on their own. And that's the thing the risk of 2 for 1's are too high but similarly the body left behind from Bestow has been generally insufficient. I'm currently testing Herald of Torment to good effect. It lets manglers become Desecration Demons and a 3/3 flier is relevant in many places. It's over the top enough to one shot Elspeth as well. Double black mind you.
3. On Reaper of the Wilds: Yeah I'm on 4 too. In my last analysis post I said Polulkranos and Reaper were the only threats you can really depend on.Now that there are green board decks the format has become even slower. Reaper is the biggest on board other than Demon and Demon can be much easier mitigated.It is no longer sufficient to try to just throw hasters at things without evasion at4 cmc or more. Xenagos planeswalker is good some places but things have gotten more awkward for it.
4. On Varolz the Scar Striped: Wow, now here is a card that is suddenly way better now. Sure I'm BTE it up it's amazing, but if we're talking he who has the last threat. In the same way Reaper is good this card is. Having trouble with Mono Black? Not anymore. This card is a lot like Nighthowler but there is much more time to leverage it now. It creates actual checkmate type positions. I'm not suggesting main decking a bunch but a couple In the 75 seem good. Varolz worst matchups are mono blue and mono white so it and doesn't particularly like Boros, but mono red, mono black and control are all good.
5. On 5 drops: Stormbreath is king and is the main reason I'm playing red. I've seen UW decks try to adapt a lot to beat it. I've even seen stuff like Rapid Hybridization. The problem is this new white creature sideboard plan with Brimaz or Archangel doesn't beat Dragon. Domri can land and just cleanup if needed. Still there is some awkwardness. There are definitely games that slamming 2 dragons in a row is the only way to win which can open you up a bit.Similarly I think Xenagos, the God is just not where to be. It generally puts you a turn behind and it isn't as effective as an attacker itself a lot of the time.
6. On mana: Not as bad as I thought. This is a slow format with lots of card selection. While double of all 3 colours for 4 cmc is unrealistic double for 5 is. At 14, 13, 13, and 2 fixers I've been fine with double in all 3 colours. We appear to already swinging back to a good stuff format.
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@ Cassial
Yeah BTE/Drum was pretty much a bust as suspected. I'm obviously trying to force 1-3 too hard. However I think 2-4 only works if 2 things are true:
1. Your 4 drop can't easily be removed by removal at no additional value.
2. It is sufficient to bring you back in the game against an explosive aggro start.
Now Caryatid being able to block lightens up the 2nd requirement a bit. But the first is troublesome. The difference with a 1-3,4 is that you already are in the game against aggro and still have pressure for the inevitable 1 for 1 that will kill your 4 drop. This allows you to keep attacking while they try to deal with the new threat each turn. If they ever stabilize a single piece of removal will generally put the game out of reach. In this Dreg Mangler is way better than the alternative s, but I wasn't restricting this to Mangler. Domri etc are good too. Domri as a 4 is always a hard sell. I'm actually only playing 2 right now.
Mind you just because I want something doesn't mean it will happen. But I suspect that having more 3's in general (and 2's that can attack or trade) is better time spent than being stuck with ramp when the first big threat dies and you're already in the low teens in life or the opponent has enough mana to one for one you for the foreseeable future.
The thing I didn't understand when I initially looked at the lists was how important Stormbreath is. The deck is counting on it not to die in certain matchups. That was a dynamic my GB and Junk decks lacked. It's also is what makes the monsters lists have so many issues against black decks . I just assumed it would always die and be just alright as a card but it turns around matchups that otherwise be almost impossible. The thing is all this makes me want to curve down not up. Mono Black is the best Midrange deck period. Big Jund doesn't actually bring that many better tools. There is even a black sweeper which sort of degrades the need to heavy splash red for Anger. Rakdos' Return any better than Gray Merchant and Erebos? The only bigger game than some Devotion mechanism in this format is Sphinx's Revelation and 6 mana planeswalkers. The only temporal big game involves making singular creatures bigger which tends to be reversed at great value and/or tempo loss. If the hope is to exploit the latter there is no slowing down.The format already has slowed down. So while in a sense going bigger will help against this new middle it plays into already existing strategies. The bigger question to me is if there anything in slightly more aggressive space that is still viable. We know what happens when we go bigger but now that a real middle exists and it's actually some of the more aggressive devotion decks on the back foot is there another angle there. I mean Mono Blue has kept those decks back and it isn't just us splashing black that solved it. It's become more hostile across the board. This is very much approaching a Kibler sort of metagame.I'd love to see if he's been brewing for Standard.
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A very similar complaint I have against ALL G/R decks at the moment - I'm not a fan of 4x of Domri Rade, and usually run 3 copies. 3 drops in general just are not where I want to be right now - you have a significantly lower chance of that T1 mana guy, (since we don't have 8 copies) and you MUST play a second land ON COLOR in order to achieve that magical Turn Two Three Drop. T2 Domri is great...when it happens. The vast majority of the time, it doesn't.
It seems like a lot of things just have to go right. That's also, not taking into account, a VAST MAJORITY of the games where I'm on the draw, I really enjoy keeping 1 or 2 land hands, if it's a scry land. That aside, sometimes the correct play early on is to scry in the early turns in order to ensure/better your chances of not missing lands.
Considering all of these things, it seems to me a "Big Jund" route may be worth exploring, as trying to force a FAST and aggressive tri-color deck is difficult to do (deck consistency fights itself sometimes) regardless of if it's the thing to do/well positioned at the moment. But a slower, bigger deck? A slower deck can take full advantage of the extra scrys from both Reaper and the additional scry land. The argument can almost always be made, that with the slow mana we have right now, it's going to favor a slower tri-color deck, barring some very unique circumstances - if you can crack the Burning Drum Curve, for instance.
EDIT: Aside - Love the way the lists are looking in here, and have been following Ketter's work too on the evolution of splashing black into "G/R Monsters". I'm firmly of the opinion Moo is dead on in saying you're essentially giving up 2 Mutavaults to add a black splash to this deck, and in my mind, that's a pure upgrade, as I never needed the Mutavaults to begin with. Some of the most recent GR Monsters lists are actually omitting Mutavault entirely and claiming they'd rather have the early consistency/up their R source count. Black splash GR Monsters is something I'm happy to get on board with, and will look at exploring a "bigger" or "devotion" version with the B splash.
I'm going to use your comments as justification for some of my choices from before Cedric Phillips and Kent Ketter popularized the deck like only running 3 Domri Rade and all kinds of scry lands. Actually, I am quite happy to see you finally found your way in here Cassial. I've been tinkering the deck towards more and more midrange as I've dropped a lot of my aggressive threes from pre-BNG (Dreg Mangler and Witchstalker). Also, I'm having trouble finding where I've previously posted it, but a Gruul Devotion splash black deck that won a PTQ I was at and basically scrubbed out with a Jund Aggro deck is one of the major reasons I kept working on the deck; it was confirmation that some part of my idea had merit. I'll try to find it again and PM it to you or something ... thanks for the kind words, it felt almost surreal to be slightly ahead of the curve for once. 6 weeks ago Witchstalker was a surprising choice (in my opponents' opinions) that could steal a lot of game 1s in that metagame where each top tier deck was blue and/or black; now, I have to run Reaper of the Wilds and up my curve for the near-mirror.
2. On Ghor-Clan Rampager: Yeah still couldn't make it good enough. Even with some blood trickery. The timing is just wrong and the effect barely worth a card in most places. Games just don't play out that way. Bestow is pretty much completely better in this metagame. Mind Ghor Clan gives some evasion. Most Bestow doesn't. I mean the problem is Boon Satyr generally still leads to trades, Nighthowler is only good in high removal matchups, which have lessened due to green board decks finally being viable. Neither punch through on their own. And that's the thing the risk of 2 for 1's are too high but similarly the body left behind from Bestow has been generally insufficient. I'm currently testing Herald of Torment to good effect. It lets manglers become Desecration Demons and a 3/3 flier is relevant in many places. It's over the top enough to one shot Elspeth as well. Double black mind you.
3. On Reaper of the Wilds: Yeah I'm on 4 too. In my last analysis post I said Polulkranos and Reaper were the only threats you can really depend on.Now that there are green board decks the format has become even slower. Reaper is the biggest on board other than Demon and Demon can be much easier mitigated.It is no longer sufficient to try to just throw hasters at things without evasion at4 cmc or more. Xenagos planeswalker is good some places but things have gotten more awkward for it.
I love my mix of 4 Ghor-Clan Rampager, 3 Polukranos, World Eater, and 3 Reaper of the Wilds at four. Maybe Reaper should be a four over GCR, but I really like having access to each one ... like Cassial mentions and you've referenced in the past, sometimes there's just too many four drops to select from ... I moved the Xenagos, the Reveler completely to the SB - bring 2 in for Poly-k against monoblack and UW/x where he's just okay.
4. On Varolz the Scar Striped: Wow, now here is a card that is suddenly way better now. Sure I'm BTE it up it's amazing, but if we're talking he who has the last threat. In the same way Reaper is good this card is. Having trouble with Mono Black? Not anymore. This card is a lot like Nighthowler but there is much more time to leverage it now. It creates actual checkmate type positions. I'm not suggesting main decking a bunch but a couple In the 75 seem good. Varolz worst matchups are mono blue and mono white so it and doesn't particularly like Boros, but mono red, mono black and control are all good.
It's really coming full circle if you've almost talked me into trying Varolz, the Scar-Striped again. I was playing Golgari splash red at first and it just felt so slow, but yeah, it had a powerful endgame if/when you got there. Besides, this was before Last Breath was a fairly common card which would feel pretty terrible to lose a Varolz that way. However, I get that it's a variation on "dies to Doom Blade" argument.
5. On 5 drops: Stormbreath is king and is the main reason I'm playing red. I've seen UW decks try to adapt a lot to beat it. I've even seen stuff like Rapid Hybridization. The problem is this new white creature sideboard plan with Brimaz or Archangel doesn't beat Dragon. Domri can land and just cleanup if needed. Still there is some awkwardness. There are definitely games that slamming 2 dragons in a row is the only way to win which can open you up a bit.Similarly I think Xenagos, the God is just not where to be. It generally puts you a turn behind and it isn't as effective as an attacker itself a lot of the time.
Crazy talk, but I'm running the Xenagos, God of Revels in the slot of the fourth Stormbreath Dragon (I still don't have 4 dragons, but now I have another five drop that can just win a game out of nowhere). It can have issues, but I've seen Gruul Monsters trounce me with it to top 8s in a row.
6. On mana: Not as bad as I thought. This is a slow format with lots of card selection. While double of all 3 colours for 4 cmc is unrealistic double for 5 is. At 14, 13, 13, and 2 fixers I've been fine with double in all 3 colours. We appear to already swinging back to a good stuff format.
Crazy talk part 2, but I still like running all the scry lands too - Temple of Malice lets me pack 2 Hero's Downfall in the board for games when I don't have enough Dreadbore or need instant speed version.
Next thing I want to do in here is walk through CVM's recent article (the part about sideboarding) from the perspective of a player committed to Jund - he seems to indicate he'll be playing some sort of Jund Monsters himself soon enough. I'll see if I have time for that later tonight - it's as much for me to get better at that part of the game as anything, but I thought I should document my thoughts on it in here. Keep at it everyone!
Ryan, great points, let me divvy this up a bit and see if we can't thought experiment some new angles here. Let me preface by saying I want to bring up some specifics first, and then do more "thought experimenting" in the vacuum-abstract-meta evaluation. I'm also looking at more of a GRb "Devotion/big ramp" shell for my ideas, and what that could do.
However I think 2-4 only works if 2 things are true:
1. Your 4 drop can't easily be removed by removal at no additional value.
I definitely understand and see your desire to curve down here, since the 2-4 curve or 1-3/4 curve is sometimes clunky. Looking big picture here at the moment, Mono-Black and U/W decks are both becoming very...unconcerned with what you're actually playing. Let me link an article by P Sully, who I believe explains it brilliantly (even if it's slightly before BNG released, not much has changed with regards to MBD and U/W) http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27810_Reflections-From-Baltimore.html
The biggest point I'm trying to stress/only takeaway from it, which you probably already know, the catchall 3 mana removal spells Detention Sphere and Hero's Downfall simply do not care at all about enemy text boxes, of course as well as Thoughtseize. In a tempo sense, I personally am not that bothered by losing a PolyK or GCR, or Reaper on a one for one, it's a very negligible 1 for 1 most of the time, since we're playing the extra mana guys, their 3 mana is our 4 mana, "in a sense". You are completely correct in theory that overloading the expensive catch-all removal with cheap threats can definitely work (while you build up too), but I believe there's definitely some angles to consider in utilizing some expensive threats. You're also right that trying to 1 for 1 them all day with our 12+ 4 drops is ultimately playing their game...I believe that's primarily because our archetype is hurting for a Kessig Wolf Run or *some* kind of inevitability for when games really go late.
2. It is sufficient to bring you back in the game against an explosive aggro start.
Now Caryatid being able to block lightens up the 2nd requirement a bit. But the first is troublesome. The difference with a 1-3,4 is that you already are in the game against aggro and still have pressure for the inevitable 1 for 1 that will kill your 4 drop. This allows you to keep attacking while they try to deal with the new threat each turn. If they ever stabilize a single piece of removal will generally put the game out of reach. In this Dreg Mangler is way better than the alternative s, but I wasn't restricting this to Mangler. Domri etc are good too. Domri as a 4 is always a hard sell. I'm actually only playing 2 right now.
I'd say yes, PolyK, and Reaper are both your ideal T3 plays against explosive aggro, obviously. I'm in agreement with you for sure otherwise on here.
Big Jund doesn't actually bring that many better tools. There is even a black sweeper which sort of degrades the need to heavy splash red for Anger. Rakdos' Return any better than Gray Merchant and Erebos? The only bigger game than some Devotion mechanism in this format is Sphinx's Revelation and 6 mana planeswalkers. The only temporal big game involves making singular creatures bigger which tends to be reversed at great value and/or tempo loss. If the hope is to exploit the latter there is no slowing down.The format already has slowed down. So while in a sense going bigger will help against this new middle it plays into already existing strategies. The bigger question to me is if there anything in slightly more aggressive space that is still viable.
Here's where I disagree, and it's not because you're wrong at all, I just think there's more to be explored here, let me use a few examples.
-First off, sure Rakdos's Return is fine, and doesn't really have a home, but I could care less/not speculating on the best use of it right now...instead, what about Sire of Insanity? Even if you're not against a Black or U/W deck, I honestly believe using him as the top of your curve is completely valid, and synergistic in this shell. With 8 Scry-lands, Reaper scrys, Domri and Courser filtering, your topdecks are going to be absolutely backbreaking compared to an opponent's, theoretically speaking, he seems like a perfect fit in here IMO. Furthermore, if you resolve the Sire against Monoblack/U/W and they don't immediately kill it, it's pretty safe to say you lock the game up.
-Xenagos, God of Revels - This card is bonkers, and black decks have no solution to him other than the lucky Thoughtseize. I'm not saying anything new about Xenagod, and it's quickly being adopted as a 2-of in mains and sides, there's no need to extrapolate on him. What I do find great about Xenagod though, is running him in tandem with Nylea (2-of). They don't necessarily have to see each other, but, having a mix of beefy monsters, planeswalkers, and indestructible gods is the angle I want to be attacking at, in the face of 1 for 1 kill spells and sweepers for days. Eventually one of the Big Punishers will stick, and if they don't have the right answer at the right time, they're screwed.
-Last point - I see Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and Sire of Insanity as kind of like Xenagod/Nylea numbers 5-8. No, not because they're resilient, but, because they demand instant interaction, or break the game wide open. Thar - I've been an advocate of this guy in the main as a 2-of for a very long time. Yes, he's expensive, but, in these "go big midrange wars" there's nothing I'd rather have, especially if I'm playing from behind. He trumps the Stormbreath Dragons in the mirrors, and helps me stabilize while going back on the offense at the same time. The concept here I'm getting at is that with the mix of our medium threats and planeswalkers, we are first trying to force the removal/attack the cards in their hand, ignoring life total. Or, 4 indestructible Gods can beat face, while being significantly harder to interact with. Eventually, you go for the "lockout" card like Thar/Sire.
I suppose you could say I'm looking for expensive silver bullets, that can quickly put a game away on their own if unanswered, while letting your 4's soak up removal. I hope these examples illustrated what I'm getting at somewhat, but there's definitely more to it than just saying going bigger is only going to make us more prone to removal. It might, or, it may put us in a position to trump games, and that's where I believe there's merit in "going big". Not to be a Timmy and make 99/99 BFM's, but for the sake of utilizing big cards that have multiple powerful angles of attack.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Yeah.. we're basically talking about 5-6 drops here. I like them and I also love trying to do the go big thing here and there. But landing one has to be pretty monumental. The difficulty besides Thoughtseize is that these are still answerable by the 3 mana answer alls or permission when you get up there. Although I think you are suggesting in numbers much higher than the 2 sideboard to bring in against control etc.. We do need that Kessig Wolf Run, way to leverage mana if we are going to invest in dorks. If you go back to the first 2 weeks of Theros brewing you will see every GR and Jund midrange take pack a couple of these 6's in there but ultimately dropped them. Yes it was because decks like Mono Blue/Red laughed at them but I think it has a lot to do with the quality of the ramp. Mind you I don't like Ramp decks generally. They are too one way or another for my liking. I just think about how many sources were in a deck like Mythic to support 10 5 drops and 3 6 drops. Conscription actually as it got tuned ended up with all that ramp and only 4 5 drops, and 3 6 drops (and 2 8 drops, but you never intended to cast them). Without like a Primeval Titan or cheating mechanism like Unburial Rites I think we can't be too greedy. And is all ramp + a bit of this enough. Like how do we turn on the Gods. We need to fill the curve with some heavy GR permanents. I mean we can look at the gods as just enchantments but I'm not sure that Xenagos is much better than Gruul War Chant by that merit. The only way around this is rely heavily on Nykthos. That will produce enough mana while playing more relevant cards. There has to be a update of Colossul Gruul that is even better, with less mana dorks now that they can play Courser and more Xenagos. Of course Nykthos probably means no black.
That's sort of the difficult in what they did with devotion in this format. It annoys me to no end. Devotion has the best ramp, best value creatures, biggest swingy effects. Furthermore it has the most redundancy which makes cards like Thoughtseize that much more good in it and middle ground against it. Like if you find a way to leverage Ramp, it's likely a Devotion version will be better. If you find a way to play big into the end game it's likely you just flat lose to Mono Black. It has loosened up a bit and I have to give Wizards some cred as making mono or near mono colour this good takes a lot of work (and balance not to make it too oppressive). Mind you from my perspective it feels more oppressive than Caw Blade. Because atleast there you could always borrow a bit of what they are doing and find a way to fight it directly. Here you can't borrow, as they will always be better at being Devoted. The only thing they can't do is play the all best threats in a vacuum. They need to build momentum, so either you can look at this as an opportunity to build yourself and try to ride a threat(or class of threats) that is hard for them but this is different for almost every matchup, you can dedicate yourself to preventing their game plan but probably lose to mono black, or you pull ahead in tempo that what they play doesn't matter. The latter 2 have worked pretty consistently at times (ie.. Control, a deck like Mono White). The first is really hit or miss. Obviously we have to do all these things in some way which firmly plants us in the middle somewhere. It's easy to just end up not good enough at anything.
Specifics.. um, yeah Nylea is a card I've been trying to get working for a while. At first I looked at Bow as a way to leverage, Xenagos seemed a bit better and started replacing Bow in my lists. Trample everything just seems so good just to get in there. I mean obviously we'd kill for Overrun in this format (but Devotion would be better.. picture T3 swing for 18 sort of action). Gods will eventually take over unless the opponent is Mono Removal(Black) or control. I was especially psyched on Xenagos for some sort of resilience, but it doesn't matter if everything else dies. The gods are pretty awkward that way. Some pinpoint removal and it is all over (unless you are Gruul Devotion, ie spewing BTE's). Mono Black doesn't have to care about Xenagos once it gets ahead of the gambit. The turn you play Xenagos is the turn they do so as well most likely. It's funny cause it encourages them to kill creatures which in turn makes it less likely for Xenagos to ever turn on. The thing is if they couldn't kill your creatures already.. you probably already won.
Thar seems really good right now. I like Thar. I stopped playing it when I realized that the deck I built to support it did so much less until I played it, then the opponent took 6 down to 12, and went on with their day. Still very good against Control. Mono Black less so but atleast respectable. I also tried Sire but got rid of it the instant I realized that if I was playing such a plodding game my CA meant just as much if not more. Like you have to kill that Connections or Pack Rat or Sire backfires. Play it too early and it's less likely you draw out of it, play it too late and it doesn't matter. The problem is we have scry, the real midrange/control decks have draw+scry. I mean we can play our own Connections I suppose + ramp .. sort of goes back to that deck doing nothing before landing the 6 drop. I'm sure these will take some games but I wonder what the cost of construction is, and how much it mitigates your own play skill if the opponent lucks out of it and you've given up your resources as well. Sire is a very dangerous weapon. I always remember the one game the opponent lands it with 4 cards left in hand I with 3.. we both discard not too much relevant crap.. I have like a Dreg Mangler against his 6/4.. Then I top deck Nighthowler and have a 15/15 Dreg Manger.. you can guess how that went. Obviously an exception. You don't always draw Varolz, or Nighthowler,.. but it has happened enough times that the player draws Downfall that it isn't fullproof enough for me to trust. When UW only had sorcery speed removal for it and relied solely on Sphinx.. go for it. Now it's a pretty big gamble. Enough about Sire.
Maybe thing is every format we look for those silver bullets. Any at 5 generally make the cut. It takes a very special format for 6's to work and while they have existed (Zendikar Standards) it usually requires just the stupidest 6 (Primeval Titan) or crazy ramp cards(think Lotus Cobra, or even reasonable ramp cards). This format seems to be all about 4 drops.. the threshold at which the cost of the removal and the power level of the creature is on par. In some formats you can't play 4 drops without value.. in this format it's 5 drops. It's been pushed back a full turn since we can't get there really any faster.
Usually I think targeted Discard is unimpressive. It doesn't cost your opponent tempo, so they just draw out of it. This format makes Thoughtseize look better than it is. Thoughtseize isn't ever luck, it's a science. The science that you start ever game at a Mulligan to 6 without your best card. It doesn't matter what that card is, just that you won't have it. Usually that wouldn't matter much, but we tend to be pretty ambitious since we know that nothing lives and we lack real redundancy. Maybe we play enough threats that it won't keep us off our end game.. Maybe back Thoughtseize up with Lifebane Zombie and kill alls. Mono Black is such a funny deck in that a lot of people underestimate it, and sometimes it just isn't very good. But it's so much like last summers Jund. The deck is so good if played by skilled players against most things. I don't think it has many bad matchups (the mirror?).
That concept of UW and Black not caring about the text of early cards is spot on. Actually I think when playing full GB was the only deck that I felt like I forced them to care. I remember reading that Patrick Sullivan article and thinking how true it general was and how annoying that is as an aggro deck. Oh wait.. rereading.. it sounds like most of this post is just paraphrasing him .. And he ends off talking about the Gods (or GW). I haven't tried Mogis yet.. hmm.. Anyway I guess I'm done for now.
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EDIT: (2-23-14) Follow-up Kent Ketter (deck tech video) plays Cedric's deck at SCG St. Louis (t16 decklists which include LOTS of Monsters decks); goes into top 8 as #1 seed but loses to Chris VanMeter playing Gruul Monsters.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Kalonian Hydra
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
Instants/Sorc
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Dreadbore
3 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Malic
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Golgari Charm
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Unravel the Aether
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Flesh // Blood
Side note, any clue how to make "aether" show up with the hover mouse/card preview function?
I've played against my own red devotion deck, and at FNM this week. Unfortunately, my FNM match-ups were local jank, nothing to really report. So instead, here are some thoughts on the card choices.
Hero's Downfall and Dreadbore are sweet. People don't expect them, and they hit plenty that mizzium mortars just can't, my favorites being polukranos and boros reckoner. I originally tried dredge mangler over scavenging ooze. Both are good, but I think with the 4 coursers, ooze is better, because it doesn't compete with the 3 cmc slot. Also, scavenging for a huge ooze after a field wipe is something the mangler can't do. Using the mangler's "scavenge" ability is just not the same.
I tried underworld Cerberus as well. Hated it. If your opponent can afford to block it, he's more of a liability than a benefit, since their creatures come back, too. I don't really want them to recast that Fanatic of Mogis. If Cerberus has an open field, he should be Kalonian Hydra or Polukranos, since both of them grow, while the Cerberus does not.
Arbor Colossus is big, has reach, and goes monstrous to be even bigger.
Kalonian Hydra grows (sometimes immediately with Xenagod), and makes scooze or any already monstrous stuff grow, too. He demands an answer (which I like), but mostly, he's in there for the random turbo fog match ups. My local shop has a few of them. Last time I played one, I won with a 256/256 Hydra.
About the 4 Coursers. Courser + Domri, Courser + Chandra, or (living the dream) Courser + Domri + Chandra is a mountain of consistency, card advantage, and inevitability. So first I draw a card, now let me play that land off the top (gain some life), +1 Domri to draw that [creature], and +0 Chandra to cast that [whatever]. Mix in the 8 scry lands so I can tuck unneeded cards, and I basically get 2 extra cards every turn if I have Courser + Walker. It also blocks everything on the ground with less than 4 power. It is an engine, not a win-con, but my other 3 drop options are dredge mangler and witchstalker, neither of which help as much (imo).
I like Xenagos, the Reveler. He helps play those extra cards you get from Domri, or just ultimates to produce a whole field of fun. Xenagod is pretty crazy, too, but I think everyone is on the same page with him. I would like to add 1 more to the mainboard, and see how that plays.
Cedric's list is cool. Anyone tried Reaper of the Wilds?
Final thought, to combat top decking, I would run the black/red scry lands in R/G anyway. The Black splash is hella easy to do, and definitely expands the rather generic R/G list. I'm a fan.
*edit* I'll probably drop flesh // blood. It's a cute trick, but I think we have plenty of kill, and I can overrun my opponents with my monsters. I should probably have another utility card in the sideboard.
Mazes end, he managed to rev for the fogs at the right times, even when I could monstrous stormbreath. It was a super long game, we went to time on the 2nd game and he had the fog (again) on turn 5.
Round 2 was gruul. Game 1 he dropped 3 walkers in the first 5 turns, I should have gone to the face rather then get distracted and taking out the walkers. Went to time again in this match, my opponent was really slow and seriously would have called a judge if that had been something more serious then FNM.
Round 3 was a take on monoblack devotion brewed up with chromanticore.
Courser is definitely nice, as much as I hate the giving information aspect, it was pretty good.
I would actually be interested in testing Shadowborn Demon, probably cutting dreg manglers and/or witchstalkers.
I hate losing to mazes end, it seams like just luck half the time
Idk about shadowborn demon. I don't see many scenarios where it will stay on the field. It'll probably just kill something, then die too.
Next weekend is a PTQ and Gameday, so I'll be play alot of standard. I'm going to play test reaper of the wilds this weekend. If I don't like her, I'm just going to make 2 small changes to my list above:
-1 Scooze
-2 Flesh // Blood (from the sideboard)
+1 Xenagod
+1 Gruul Charm (to the side)
All things considered, this really is just a splash, but I think Golgari Charm and Dreadbore make it worth it. Besides, I've come to like the scry lands, so I'd run the temples of malice anyway. I might as well use the black, haha.
looked up that alt+146 produces the special AE character - not sure how to get it to work on here
After losing to Gruul in top 8 again, I think I'll find a way to get the 3rd Dreadbore back into the main deck. The double-black casting cost on Hero's Downfall scares me ... is it not getting stranded in your opening hand?
When I was using both Scavenging Ooze and Dreg Mangler, they filled very different niches in the deck - Dreg competes with Courser of Kruphix (or also Witchstalker in my build). I agree that the third Scavenging Ooze isn't necessary unless the amount of smaller aggro decks like monored or white weenie picks up.
If we didn't have so many options, I'd be fine with this card as a singleton - could be good out of the SB against monoblack but do we really have a slot for it?
I liked running 2 Arbor Colossus main in Gruul Aggressive Midrange right at the start of Theros standard - has triple green been an issue? I don't mind double in here - triple seems as tough as double black.
I haven't tried it so you keep coming back and letting us know how it's working for you.
EDIT: this response somehow was never typed or accidentally deleted - I was fine with 2 Courser of Kruphix; if I cut Witchstalker, I would probably go up to 3 copies.
Won't fault you for trying 2 copies - I'm going to leave it as a single copy for now as I can use the emblem from Garruk, Caller of Beasts to tutor it up.
Cedric's article has convinced me to try it again over Witchstalker? Temple of Malice has hopefully solved some problems in the manabase - not to mention going to 24 lands and having Courser of Kruphix to help stall and pseudo-accelerate into four and five drops.
I miss the fun and explosiveness of Blood, but I wholeheartedly agree with your comment.
Lordpiglet: Let me know if you try Shadowborn Demon and it works for you - I'm hesitant about the casting cost and it doesn't do much against Desecration Demon
Will try to update my list taking into account Cedric Phillip's and Ari Lax's SCG articles and finally get around to trying to describe my rough sideboarding strategies ...
1) No mana problems what so ever. I actually ran 3 arbor colossus and no Xenagod for an event, and that worked fine. You'll notice that I have the same number of Green to Red sources as a standard RG Monsters list, but I've tacked on black. If you can cast it in RG Monsters, you can cast it here.
2)Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall are in the deck to kill the seriously big scary stuff that doesn't drop until turn 4 onward. By then, I'll have hit the black. Keep in mind that Sylvan Caryatid produces black mana, too, so I have 9 land sources, and 4 black manadorks. So far it hasn't tripped me up. I definitely will keep 4 kills of some combination in the mainboard. Abrupt Decay is another option, too, but probably more for the sideboard.
3) I should try Garruk, Caller of Beasts. I like my current 6 walkers, 3 Xenagos, 3 Domri's and a Chandra. Chandra is basically Domri #4, since they're both mainly there to put creatures into my hand and then the battlefield. I think her +1 has potential to be useful. I'll never use her ult.
4) Flesh // Blood should be Gruul Charm, as I've mentioned in another post.
I'll keep ya'll posted after this weekend of testing, and then after the PTQ end of next week. I've been following the standard RG thread, too. Someone posted a splash black for golgari charm list and they tore him apart. I would not go back to playing standard RG, as it (at the absolute worst) doesn't change the core of the deck to run Black.
I've deicided Reaper of the Wilds is sort of like Falkenrath Aristocrat in this deck. It's a four power four-drop that makes combat interesting and can convert late game useless draws into something; Aristocrat can sacrifice a late game Elvish Mystic for an indestructible effect while Reaper just scrys the Elf away. Of course, it's not a perfect comparison as Reaper isn't nearly as aggressive without haste and is missing evasion.
If I were to go to FNM this week, here's what I think I would play (not sure what my next larger event would be yet):
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
3 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Chandra, the Pyromaster
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Malice
4 Forest
2 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Underworld Cerberus
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
Summary of Changes from loss in SCG IQ finals:
MAIN
-3 Witchstalker, -1 Xenagos, the Reveler for +2 Reaper of the Wilds, +1 Dreadbore, +1 Courser of Kruphix
Witchstalker has done a lot of work for me, but Gruul Monsters could push some of the UW/x and monoblack percentages down and Witchstalker gets outclassed quickly against Gruul ... so I'll pay a little extra mana for a bigger creature whose hexproof is conditional and also add in an extra Dreadbore to help me get to the mid/late game since my curve is a little higher now ... it's entirely possible that I could want another Reaper of the Wilds instead of having the Chandra, Pyromaster main, but I want to try it first. Courser blocks better than Witchstalker and helps you get lands out of the way of all the action in the deck; the incidental life gain is also somewhat helpful due to half of the manabase being shocklands. Also, recall I wanted a Xenagos, God of Revels in there, didn't have it, called an Underworld Cerberus good enough, lost to Xenagod in finals, and traded for the copy that beat me.
SIDEBOARD
-2 Skylasher, -3 Thoughtseize for +2 Hero's Downfall, +2 Rakdos's Return, +1 Underworld Cerberus
Skylasher seemed to help the monoblue match-up, but it only helps that match up - run even more removal and cross my fingers. Thoughtseize was always a little troubling because you can't afford the life-loss against an aggressive deck; I'm going to try the topdeck bomb Rakdos's Return instead to help finish games instead of trying to unreliably steal a card on an early turn. The Cerberus stays for another outing but moves to the sideboard.
EDIT: (2-22-14) 3-1 at FNM (fourth place) with wins over monoblack, Gruul Monsters (with Kalonian Tusker), and monored devotion but with more burn cards than usual in the main and my match loss was to an Esper Ephara aggro deck piloted by arguably the best player at my shop that finished in the top two - games were interesting - lost game 3 to an Ephara, God of the Polis that could attack off devotion being turned on from multiple copies of Detention Sphere - Reaper of the Wilds is much better now than when I first built the deck two months ago (or so). I largely credit Temple of Malice as it really helps with the mana to run a playset (if you don't want 8 Temples, trim copies of the Gruul one). I had been avoiding double-red for Stormbreath Dragon (only ran 2, now 3) at the time - which was probably just a mistake as Reaper can hold the ground while the Dragon flies over for the win. I still am fine with playing Witchstalker pre-BNG as it was about the same card in a metagame dominated by monoblue, monoblack, and UW/x control. However, Reaper is just so much better in the near mirror, and I firmly believe the top-tier now also includes Gruul Monsters variants. Hero's Downfall was fine to cast as two copies of the sideboard in limited action - if there are issues it can become either Putrefy, Ultimate Price (per Cedric Phillip's build), or Doom Blade. Some sort of instant speed removal is necessary, and I primarily want it for the near mirror to take out opposing Dragons, Ghor-Clan Rampager bloodrush targets, or something made giant by Xenagos, God of Revels. Thus, if Downfall is hard to cast, I'll probably switch it to Putrefy even though it costs two mana compared to the other options. Rakdos's Return was okay; I actually brought it in a near mirror and was able to hit them with x=4 while they had 5 cards in hand and were stuck at 3 mana to keep them from being able to recover once they did start drawing land; I had been playing Thoughtseize to rip apart a shaky keep in some match-ups games 2/3, but Return is definitely a mid-to-late game haymaker which is how Cedric Phillips as tuned his version. The Underworld Cerberus is probably just too cute and needs to be another Golgari Charm(?). I think I'm largely fine with the maindeck - I see Courser of Kruphix often enough with only two copies and Xenagod was fine as a singleton.
1. 4 mana on T3.. Elf, or Sage + BTE + (Falkenrath, or Ghor Clan).. with potential of 5 mana T3 (risky)
2. 8 Haste fliers in Falkenrath and Thundermaw to get past board stalls (even more if you consider Ghor Clan)
3. Flinthoof Boar + Dreg Mangler. Boar could be played off BTE or Elf.. meaning that no matter what you had a huge number of 3/3 hasters to get early damage in.
4. 6-7 I win sweep and hit cards in Thundermaw and Bonfire
In my opinion 1 and 3 are the most important. 3 is very much related to 1 mind you since the reason BTE was playable was because of Boar, being a worthwhile 2 or 3. The other 2's that fall in that category (like Lotleth Troll are not castable off BTE). 3 is so important is it was what made Thundermaw good enough. It made the big threats just big enough to do the job. If that was less successful maybe Thundermaw plan wouldn't have been good enough. There was a reason it didn't see much play initially. Every format has it's timing.
Now obviously in every format has it's tools as well. Generally when looking at these decks I use Zvi's Fires as a guide. Zvi's My Fires, Mythic Origins, and Hypermana Deckbuilding articles are must reads. However, Unfriendly Skies had less mana to work with so it has some different constraints that fringe on Brian Kibler Territory. Unfortunately the current Standard is even more constrained. So while this stuff doesn't completely apply I think you have to look at it from this perspective whenever you look to use green mana accelerants.
This is his 7 rules:
1. Your mana base, including your color, has to be ironclad.
2. You must be able to turn your mana cards into powerful weapons in their own right.
3. The threats you accelerate to must be able to win the game on their own.
4. The biggest threat must be powerful enough to overwhelm opponents.
5. You need a way to make your cards keep you alive against aggression.
6. Every card must either be mana or a threat.
7. You need a way to not die to mass removal.
Let's look at Unfriendly Skies..
1. We had the best mana in Standard in years.. As far as 3 color decks go it was solid.
2. Gyre Sage comes to mind here. The Elves weren't great but we did have a Kessig Wolf Run or 2. Elves also could sac to keep Falkenrath alive.
3. Falkenrath (plus any other body), Thundermaw,.. I mean these type of threats carried games. Not quite as big but our mana investment wasn't quite as much either (this deck had a decent aggro game). Domri could beat control single handedly almost.
4. Thundermaw and Bonfire (not really a threat, but it was a fireball) could be complete blow outs. They are strong enough to be do or die.
5. This deck was weak here.. We did not have a Loxodon Smiter, or Rhox War Monk. I ended up ultimately going to a 4 color build that splashed Boros Reckoner.. but this was the decks weakness for sure. Basically it was Bonfire or die in some places. (Loved Cedric's Bonfire chant).
6. Except for some Bonfires or like 2 Dreadbore. The bigger the ramp investment the less removal you can run. Domri being a threat and removal helps a lot here. But it's proportional. If you don't go super big you can play some non-threat, non-mana cards.. in these decks generally take the Mana Creatures(any creature you play for mana that is below it's threat curve.. ie KoTR doesn't count here since it's on curve, but Bordland does) + Lands + Removal and you shouldn't really be over 38-40.
7. Falkenrath Indestructible was huge for this, and Domri card advantage.
Ok.. that's all the past let's look at what we are doing here and what's our constraints.
1. We have to play Scry lands.. We only had 1 before,.. now we have 2.. It's getting close enough to be a decent mana base. Elvish Mystic has it's 12 sources. Double Green on T2 is handled there. However, if we want to lean on Mystic to go 1 to 3, we actually need to ensure we don't have to play that many lands tapped. The last format that wasn't an issue. Zvi felt in fires that the untapped lands were so important he did not play any even though it limited him to 4 GR dual lands where he could have had 8. I think in general this is a huge consideration. In a deck that plays Elf.. I don't think 8 Scry lands is the right number at all. I think 5 is about the max (seems Cedric's list also plays 5). Consider what that does to your mana colour consistency.
2. This is so hard in this format. We don't have much in the way of mana sinks. Mutavault isn't doing much. Any permanent that can do something dies too easily. This is what drew me to Archangel of Thune.. but it isn't doing much in your graveyard. In fact that's the key here the graveyard. I think the best way to leverage mana creatures is in the graveyard after they've had their use. This is why I like Lotleth Troll to discard extra creatures that don't matter late game. It's why I've been a proponent of Nighthowler. Scavenging Ooze and Varolz are excellent too albeit take more time to get online reasonably and aren't reusable (ie.. if they are dealt with you lose the bonus and then a second copy won't necessarily bring you back).
It's also why I like Bow of Nylea. It gives little things death touch and it let's you grow threats a bit. It's slow as molasses though on the building and is much better at forcing the last few bits of damage in, but it is versatile as a removal spell, and a way to stay alive against aggro.
Anyway this is a constant thought on my mind. The answer isn't as simple as Gyre Sage this time since we don't have Boar redundancy to make BTE good enough. My current thought is less mana dorks make sense. Courser is almost on curve in this format in the sense that if everything dies to removal it doesn't matter if the average 3 mana low value creature is a 4/4. Fanatics of Xenagos, Smiter, even Brimaz can't beat the 4 drops anyway so if these cards generally are going to eat a Doom Blade why not see if you can gain a life and draw a card first. So this is one of many reasons why I think Caryatid is a hard sell as a 4 of.
3. This is hard too. This is where I got stuck a lot although it's not as hard as the next one. I mean most of our threats can win games of magic. Like Polukranos is huge, Reaper can be hard to kill, Stormbreath can dodge problematic threats and fly over. What caught me the most inthis format is how tailored these have had to be in a sense, but in so every choice feels generic and only alright. Like Mistcutter Hydra is maindeckable, in the sense it's good against the blue decks (which can be problematic) and because a big haster is decent. Usually this card wouldn't be but it's at about the same rate as Stormbreath. So while I will say we have these there are no clear winner.
Stormbreath Dragon is so close to right, but it falls short in that it doesn't One Shot Elspeth. I don't know if that was intentional but it means that a card that should be a control killer doesn't even prevent them from tapping out to play their finisher. This timing issue is a huge huge issue with Dragon. It's compounded by Desecration Demon a bigger flier. Stormbreath being vulnerable to black means that generally that is enough to put it on the backseat. Obviously a card like Mistcutter or any of our 5's aren't any better. Can't ever attack with Hydra or Archangel.. That's still passable mind you, given when you get to 7 you can monstrous but you have to wait. Or make Demon bigger still so Monstrous doesn't matter. I found in Archangel decks I could gain life in the interim and get bigger than demon. Basically I like to line up threat threat for threat with these sort of decks and none really stand out. Reaper with Deathtouch atleast trades when blocked and walls out ground creatures. Polukranos can trade similarly with a Demon when it monstrous .. or be bigger if it can kill something else. I should mention Arbor Colossus here. The card seems like a good one to one response answer but it still takes a lot of work. Like if say a Demon is already neutralizing your board (GW with Voice so far is the only deck I've played where I could win through tapping down Demon pretty regularly even from the opponent with a high life total), then they dont need to use their removal, which means what ever you play to follow up probably dies. Mind you having a sideboard full of removal doesn't work for these sort of decks either. You want to win with bodies (which brings up Ghor Clan.. more on that later).
In my opinion Polukranos and Reaper are the best threats in Standard to win games on their own. Like Polukranos against aggro or Master of Waves neutralizes strategies. The problem is you can't play Polukranos in multiples and Reaper isn't quite a big enough clock. Everything else is optional though in my opinion. Remember how I said earlier that Thundermaw was only as good as it was due to what lead up to it. Well.. we're slower out the gates and our 5 mana spells clock that tiny bit slower. Stormbreath is not nearly as good. If you can support the double red, it's the way to go for sure, but it isn't worth constraining your mana if you have other options.
4. Similar to 3, and unfortunately this is just where we fall short. Reaper does not overwhelm the opponent. It pushes us to lean on things like Ghor Clan or Flesh and Blood, which are awkward often in a format where so many things just die. Thragtusk if anything made playing removal less desirable. Here everyone will have the answer unless they don't. What I mean is for everyone of those awesome hands that it works there will be ones where it causes you to lose basically. What's worse is it's hard to judge because the play skill of your opponent is even more relevant here. Against worse opponents these sort of tactics will overperform. Ever play against the UW Heroic deck? Or remember Infect? I've had those rounds where game 1 they just nut draw you and you realize there was no way to win unless you had the removal spell at the right time and we don't play enough of them. However, I find on average I win against those decks. They rarely get those draws and if you are careful you can pick them apart.. often with maybe one removal spell, not a dozen. I think the problem with Ghor Clan especially is that this is a format where Scry is good.. I mean seriouslly it's good. Good enough that Reaper's ability is relevant (where it wouldn't be in most Standards), that Courser is a premier card where elsewhere it would be laughed at. Throwing cards away into things that lack permanence are not worth it. I mean Troll is a throw away perhaps but it has some resilience.
So what can we do to overwhelm the opponent. I tried Underworld Cerberus initially in Theros Standard but it's not it. Xenagos, the god is one thing that's reasonable and I've excited about. Garruk, Caller of Beasts is reasonable (but slow) and requires a large mana investment.. Basically Kiblers Fear the Reaper deck had nothing here and that's why it failed. We have some better options. I'm not sure anything completely does it. It's again why I like Nighthowler. It's not a great card always but it's big game. Especially on a trampler or flier, or creature with protection. All that being said I do like Blood since it can double as removal. It just is awkward against bigger creatures and Master of Waves, and depending on your other removal choices those are 2 creatures that are problematic anyway so playing more removal that doesn't deal with them well is tiresome.
5. Atleast that isn't a huge problem here with Caryatid, and more so with Courser coming into the mix. There is some need for other removal perhaps but I think we have access. In these colours removal isn't a problem and it's fairly consistent. Whereas in Unfriendly Skies Bonfire could be iffy.. everything dies these days and nothing is particularly powerful except critical mass. So Anger or Mortars or Gruul charm (against Mono blue) or whatever else will do the trick. I don't think this is a concern really at all.
6. We're pretty good here. I think Thoughtseize is wrong for this deck atleast main because the few spells we need, need to impact (mind you postboard especially against decks like this, it's amazing, especially ones that play more ramp). Also most lists don't play enough black to support it properly. I like Dreadbore a lot other than it doesn't kill Master or Blood Baron, but Mortars handles that. Actually I think the concern for Blood Baron might be generally overstated. I actually don't particularly like Mortars. I mean it's fine but relying on it late game is not good enough. It's fine against some decks but the decks where you go long to overload it matters a lot less.. I mean you can ramp to it, but again having a ton of Ramp seems, problematic for consistency when the top end is guarenteed to be that effective. I think Cedric's list has too many Mortars. But I also think he has too many Carytids and Coursers. I've been playing against GR and GRb variants online so much recently and I keep on coming back to the fact with Bow I can power through. I guess Gruul Charm would do it too. But the problem is with all the Carytids I generally keep the tempo initiative.
7. Yeah.. well.. there is Domri/Xenagos except well Esper plays 8 cards that kill it outright.. There is Troll, there is bestow creatures.. There is Golgari Charm. It's basically a struggle. We don't actually need that much mana so it isn't like we need to depend on mana dorks that much. So I think it's fine. A little big haste goes pretty far.
____________________________________________________
Anyway all that being said here is my current list. It's more of a continuation of what I was doing in the Domri Jund thread but it's relevant here. It's much closer to mixing this deck with like Kibler's Fear the Reaper deck. The biggest advantage I find is it can be much faster. I've been saying Dreg Mangler is so so key to the timing of these decks. It's what makes my list different but it also wins me a lot of games. The scavenge can further push the mine is bigger game which works very well in the situations where the board gets cluttered. A big deathtouch creature is very problematic on a CA perspective when blocking, however, a Stormbreath Dragon can be kept off for a turn by a lowly Skylasher. Don't get me wrong Stormbreath is better than Mistcutter Hydra which I main deck, but I don't play enough red to support it, and where it matters the differences are surprisingly few. I think double black is much more relevant where we are weak.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Temple of Abandon
3 Temple of Malice
Creatures(31):
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Skylasher
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Nighthowler
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Domri Rade
2 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Gift of Orzhova
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Rakdos' Return
Oh and I'm still on Skylasher as I find it fairly relevant almost everywhere except other green decks.. Mind you other green decks are gaining popularity. Mainly that it takes so much pressure off removal. Otherwise I'd need Abrupt Decay for those Nightveil Specters and Chandra's Pheonix's .. or even Soldier of Pantheon. I was trying other 2's but being able to play a scry land T2 after and elf, then on T3 attack for 6 can be big .. alot of decks are so so slow, that having any 2 that can attack is reasonable. Although I imagine a Caryatid plan cares less for it.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Here's my list:
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Arbor Colossus
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Xenagos, God of Revels
Instants/Sorc
1 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dreadbore
3 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Temple of Malice
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
4 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Golgari Charm
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Unravel the Aether
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Dreadbore
2 Gruul Charm
I've been getting the crap kicked out of me by black decks. Thoughtseize + Lifebane Zombie ruins my opening hands, and I can't block the zombie because of intimidate. Any recommendations of creatures I can try to get around that? It what I've struggled with the most.
I am not a fan of Bow of Nylea. It's just too slow for me, and my problem has not been making my threats lethal, it's been keeping threats on the field period. I've decreased my number of mana dorks and added the Reaper of the wilds, just to have more threats that can hit the table.
After watching the SCG stream yesterday, and today, I was impressed with the performance of the new list as Kent Ketter went 9-0-2 with Cedrics lists (slightly different sideboard).
Personally, I'd like a couple gore clans and/or xenagod in the main. I'd also like to test Mogis. I'll probably sleeve up Jund to test on Wednesday between league rounds in preparation for this weekend.
You are right about Stormbreath.. I pretty much need it to beat control. However, I'm not having issues at all in those other matchups. The problem comes in that the resilient creatures generally are a bit smaller bodied for their costs, and we can't keep up a one for one removal game anyway. So I've been destroying black decks. Mind you I have to consider that I even want some amount of removal against control game 1 so I'm probably pushing Bow a bit too hard. It's a lot of the reason I play cards like Exava or Dreg Mangler which looks small bodied on paper but carry the type of momentum that it's very hard for anyone to get back in front of. Then you play Bow and it's GG. It's this awkward Tension between the sheer power of cards and their resiliency. Haste is about the only thing sort of linking these. But generally we are already in awkward ground in that we have to rely on stuff like Caryatid to play the top end people want to.. I play a lot less top simply because the timing is off. Have you ever played an Aggressive midrange deck with Farseek? Caryatid works the same sort of way. It's fine, but it means it's the 4 drops that soak up the initial removal. Any deck with Discard will clean you out. Thoughtseize forces us fundamentally to go smaller if anything. Lifebane Zombie is just more of that. However, Dreg Mangler (especially with Bow) beats Zombie for instance. I got so pumped on Bow when I took a month or so break from Jund and was play GW splash black. It's better there mind you since Voice takes so little work to get going.
It seems the only way to reconcile both parts for me is to put in my removal slightly, cut a bow, and find a way to support double red without losing my ability to play Troll, and Manger.. I'm not sure if it's possible. I like my access to black. Bringing in things like Thoughtseize for instance do a huge number in green mirrors. And troll often wants double black by T3.
As for you probably need to down curve just a little. The deck is like mana - 4 drops. Doing so little the first couple turns especially if the dorks go down is hard. You need atleast a couple good things to slam on T2 that matter on T2.. Domri off Elf is good, Courser is ok but better when you miss a land drop, Caryatid doesn't put on any pressure and probably runs your 4 into removal, Ooze is literally a Bear at this point of the game and is dealt with easily. 10 4 drops and 7 5 drops is fine and in this format you will get there, but it might be a slow road that is very disruptable if you don't curve out properly.
----------------
Currently trying:
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
5 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Malice
Creatures(28):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Skylasher
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Dreadbore
1 Golgari Charm
1 Bow of Nylea
3 Domri Rade
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
3 Gift of Orzhova
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Nighthowler
2 Rakdos' Return
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
2 Temple of Malice
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Blood Crypt
4 Forest
2 Mutavault
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Ultimate Price
1 Rakdos's Return
4 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Skylasher
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Ultimate Price
I'm not totally sold yet on all the Skylashers in the board, but the mono-blue matchup is definitely the worst of the major archetypes for us, and I don't want to auto-scoop to it at a large event like a GP. I had cut Scooze from earlier versions of GR Monsters, but with the added shock lands, I like having the life gain in the main, and he's always welcome against aggro decks anyway. Otherwise I pretty much like all the slots in the main deck and sideboard. Having main deck Rakdos's Return in a ramp deck is just sick in this format, and one of the big draws for the black splash. Otherwise, Ultimate Price just deals with all the threats we have trouble with (Desecration Demon, Polukranos, Master of Waves, Pack Rat) with the single exception of Boros Reckoner. Since Rw devotion is not very big right now, I'm willing to give up on that one, although in a different metagame I could be convinced to find room for some abrupt decays somewhere in the 75 to help deal with him (perhaps in place of the charms - both cards kill detention spheres).
Thanks to Avatar for the rockin' Sig and Avvy!
I agree on downing my curve. I guess the only logical cut left is arbor colossus. I originally played RG devotion, and that deck hinged on colossus, so I'm a little sad to see him go.
Main:
-1 scavenging ooze
-2 arbor colossus
+3 lotleth troll
Side:
-2 Bow
+2 skylasher
Not sure if I can get Rakdos's Return by this weekend, but I have had a few games where I slammed my opp down to only a few health, only to have to do it all over again thanks to ooze or blood baron. RR would definitely stop that mess.
You won't be happy with troll as you don't have enough black sources. It's part of the whole dilemma really. It's hard to make GR reasonably aggressive in that the 2 and 3 drops aren't really doing it. Like BTE is too low impact but everything has strict colour requirements that pushes the boundary there. As I ssaid the issue is more fundamental to playing with caryatid. I actually think 3 drops is how I'd want to fill that curve. Keep the 3 oozes there just isn't a better 2 with those colour requirements. I am not sure if there is a 3 that will do it. Obviously I like Dreg Mangled but maybe Varolz works better with the tempo and the weakness to black.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Thinking about BTE got me thinking what if there was a way to get it to be worthwhile. Obviously Bile Blight puts it in weaker place. I don't think Gyre Sage is any good since its either slow or decks pack enough removal for basically anything. Still BTE + other 2 is still the closest GR gets to overwhelming removal early where GB has Troll and GW Voice. Mind you we could always BTE + Caryatid but that was never quite good enough.
So how to make BTE worth the slots? First we need a reason to play it beyond the obvious early board presence. How about another way to get 3 mana on T2? I mean that could be worth it. We only have Mystic which produces green. Springleaf Drum T1 into BTE basically gives us BoP. Even without BTE we make any 2 drop a poor man's Caryatid(no hexproof, although it still can attack when desired/have it's own value). Still that's 2 cards. So not sure how many Drums are playable. However that'd require cutting Caryatid to reduce air. Although I think the potential to go 1-3 and change the curve slightly makes 23 lands more realistic. Having an early game like that might even be enough to push Ghor Clan.
Other ways to leverage BTE is Devotion. Does Nykthos become better than Mutavault? Is Xenagos, God of Revels better? Varolz seems pretty good too in some matchups making BTE sacs and scavenges powerful. Again this isn't really anything we didn't try before, so I guess the question is if Springleaf Drum is a big enough game changer and if we have the wealth of 3 drops worth playing now?
I've been testing a heavier GR list (since don't need to support Troll) and it seems to be doing well, but it's hard to tell if it's any better Yet.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Here's my first response to your thought experiment without any testing ... and do you want to force Pain Seer into the deck if you're playing Springleaf Drum and Ghor-Clan Rampager? Are we lowering the curve to a very aggressive deck similar to that of Jund Aggro right after Gatecrash (I think we were both on it at that point if I recall correctly)?
2 Springleaf Drum
4 Experiment One
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
3 Pain Seer
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Domri Rade
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
3 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malice
Sideboard would include things like Skylasher, Abrupt Decay, Golgari Charm, and instant speed black removal. This is the Jund Blitz Aggro deck I penciled out when I saw the BNG-spoilers - not taking your ideas and trying to modify Jund Monsters as you requested.
Mind you I can't really say if what I'm proposing is very good.I just know if 8 mana dorks existed in this format at 1cmc, especially one that fixed colors we'd have a completely different format. It'd tear it wide open. So my thought was more on how to get more Elvish Mystics. I realize we can just play Caryatid but Caryatid will never attack nor play a 3 drop on T2.I'm thinking 23 lands, 4 Mystics, 3(maybe 2) drums, 4 BTE, 3 other 2 drops castable off BTE, as a base.8 3 drops, 8 4 drops, 4 5 drops, + 3 flex slots. Realistically the deck can't play 8 real 4's so it would likely have some number of Ghor Clans.At least one of the flex spots would have to be an over the top sort of effect, and at least 2 would need to be solid removal.Anyway that's roughly it I build by curve and mana tempo more than cards. I will likely try this in every GRx colour combination as usual if I see any promise. I think the concept might be too cute though. Springleaf Drum feels a little like Abundant Growth. Basically a card that looks almost good enough but requires certain card pool considerations as to whether the effect is worth the card. I just feel a deck that can T2 Dreg Mangler most games would be quite a force. Whether this is realistic (3 mana on T2) enough to outweigh this much air I'm justifiably skeptical of, but exploring it seems reasonable to me.
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4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malice
2 Mutavault
4 Forest
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Ultimate Price
4 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Skylasher
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Ultimate Price
2 Golgari Charm
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
The one-of Scavenging Ooze in the main seems a bit strange, but I still want the life-gain it offers, and I didn't want the curve to get too high. With Reapers offering even more scrying, I feel comfortable running 24 lands plus all 8 mana guys and not getting flooded too much.
Thanks to Avatar for the rockin' Sig and Avvy!
@Ryan - I completely agree with you on the point about if 4x more 1x CMC dorks existed, this could be a completely different format. It's hard to not compare the previous standard's green decks and how 8 mana dorks had such a tremendous impact on ALL the green decks...from GR Kibler aggro-midrange, to even Reanimator sporting the full 7-8.
I also absolutely love your posts and am a huge fan of your work, I never invested much myself into Jund last season, but I very strongly appreciate the work you (and countless others here) put in, exploring all the possible changes at multiple parts of curves.
That being said, I think I have to caution against/disagree with you, on going in with a deck that wants to jam Dreg Manglers on T2. I see nothing wrong with Dreg Mangler at all, and maybe that aggressive strategy could work, not even looking at the field. What I am going to point out though, is how the deck is very stacked against this kind of thing, in a 3 color shell as you obviously know.
A very similar complaint I have against ALL G/R decks at the moment - I'm not a fan of 4x of Domri Rade, and usually run 3 copies. 3 drops in general just are not where I want to be right now - you have a significantly lower chance of that T1 mana guy, (since we don't have 8 copies) and you MUST play a second land ON COLOR in order to achieve that magical Turn Two Three Drop. T2 Domri is great...when it happens. The vast majority of the time, it doesn't.
It seems like a lot of things just have to go right. That's also, not taking into account, a VAST MAJORITY of the games where I'm on the draw, I really enjoy keeping 1 or 2 land hands, if it's a scry land. That aside, sometimes the correct play early on is to scry in the early turns in order to ensure/better your chances of not missing lands. You have a great outlook and willingness to try the Springleaf Drum + BTE route, and I'd absolutely love to be proven wrong and see it work.
The other thing though - G/R Monsters as a deck isn't really that "fast", and even in comparison to decks like MUD - both decks absolutely require a good 3-4 turns of "setup" whether it's mana development, or getting a planeswalker online. Most games, G/R Monsters takes it's time deploying one for one high impact threats.
Dreg Mangler almost feels interchangable with Fanatic of Xenagos, to me, personally, and Lotleth Troll as we all know is frequently a 3 drop in disguise, asking for BB. I also strongly miss Falkenrath Aristocrat, and that to me, was the kind of super hard hitting + evasive 4 drop you wanted to follow up Dreg Mangler with in "fast+big aggro jund".
I'm not in a position to make any critiques on your list, and trust that you have reasons behind each card in there/not in there. The general sentiment I'm of the opinion of, it's far more consistent at the moment in this format to just go for the T3 4 drop.
Considering all of these things, it seems to me a "Big Jund" route may be worth exploring, as trying to force a FAST and aggressive tri-color deck is difficult to do (deck consistency fights itself sometimes) regardless of if it's the thing to do/well positioned at the moment. But a slower, bigger deck? A slower deck can take full advantage of the extra scrys from both Reaper and the additional scry land. The argument can almost always be made, that with the slow mana we have right now, it's going to favor a slower tri-color deck, barring some very unique circumstances - if you can crack the Burning Drum Curve, for instance.
EDIT: Aside - Love the way the lists are looking in here, and have been following Ketter's work too on the evolution of splashing black into "G/R Monsters". I'm firmly of the opinion Moo is dead on in saying you're essentially giving up 2 Mutavaults to add a black splash to this deck, and in my mind, that's a pure upgrade, as I never needed the Mutavaults to begin with. Some of the most recent GR Monsters lists are actually omitting Mutavault entirely and claiming they'd rather have the early consistency/up their R source count. Black splash GR Monsters is something I'm happy to get on board with, and will look at exploring a "bigger" or "devotion" version with the B splash.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
1. On Springleaf Drum: As anticipated it was a bit too awkward. In most cases not really anymore awkward than Caryatid, but the number of times early it just sat dormant most of the game was not trivial. The fixing was good and ramp was decent. It especially excelled in low land situations. I actually still like it better than Caryatid except in one situation. Drum doesn't play well with Mystic on draws where they are the only low draws. I try to remind myself it's actually the BTE that replaces Caryatid and the drum some removal or expensive drop in other lists that I couldn't play there anyway, but it is sort of feel bad. Ultimately I think it means 2 is the max and Caryatid at that low of quantity is probably better(it's multiple Caryatid's that are awkward).
2. On Ghor-Clan Rampager: Yeah still couldn't make it good enough. Even with some blood trickery. The timing is just wrong and the effect barely worth a card in most places. Games just don't play out that way. Bestow is pretty much completely better in this metagame. Mind Ghor Clan gives some evasion. Most Bestow doesn't. I mean the problem is Boon Satyr generally still leads to trades, Nighthowler is only good in high removal matchups, which have lessened due to green board decks finally being viable. Neither punch through on their own. And that's the thing the risk of 2 for 1's are too high but similarly the body left behind from Bestow has been generally insufficient. I'm currently testing Herald of Torment to good effect. It lets manglers become Desecration Demons and a 3/3 flier is relevant in many places. It's over the top enough to one shot Elspeth as well. Double black mind you.
3. On Reaper of the Wilds: Yeah I'm on 4 too. In my last analysis post I said Polulkranos and Reaper were the only threats you can really depend on.Now that there are green board decks the format has become even slower. Reaper is the biggest on board other than Demon and Demon can be much easier mitigated.It is no longer sufficient to try to just throw hasters at things without evasion at4 cmc or more. Xenagos planeswalker is good some places but things have gotten more awkward for it.
4. On Varolz the Scar Striped: Wow, now here is a card that is suddenly way better now. Sure I'm BTE it up it's amazing, but if we're talking he who has the last threat. In the same way Reaper is good this card is. Having trouble with Mono Black? Not anymore. This card is a lot like Nighthowler but there is much more time to leverage it now. It creates actual checkmate type positions. I'm not suggesting main decking a bunch but a couple In the 75 seem good. Varolz worst matchups are mono blue and mono white so it and doesn't particularly like Boros, but mono red, mono black and control are all good.
5. On 5 drops: Stormbreath is king and is the main reason I'm playing red. I've seen UW decks try to adapt a lot to beat it. I've even seen stuff like Rapid Hybridization. The problem is this new white creature sideboard plan with Brimaz or Archangel doesn't beat Dragon. Domri can land and just cleanup if needed. Still there is some awkwardness. There are definitely games that slamming 2 dragons in a row is the only way to win which can open you up a bit.Similarly I think Xenagos, the God is just not where to be. It generally puts you a turn behind and it isn't as effective as an attacker itself a lot of the time.
6. On mana: Not as bad as I thought. This is a slow format with lots of card selection. While double of all 3 colours for 4 cmc is unrealistic double for 5 is. At 14, 13, 13, and 2 fixers I've been fine with double in all 3 colours. We appear to already swinging back to a good stuff format.
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Yeah BTE/Drum was pretty much a bust as suspected. I'm obviously trying to force 1-3 too hard. However I think 2-4 only works if 2 things are true:
1. Your 4 drop can't easily be removed by removal at no additional value.
2. It is sufficient to bring you back in the game against an explosive aggro start.
Now Caryatid being able to block lightens up the 2nd requirement a bit. But the first is troublesome. The difference with a 1-3,4 is that you already are in the game against aggro and still have pressure for the inevitable 1 for 1 that will kill your 4 drop. This allows you to keep attacking while they try to deal with the new threat each turn. If they ever stabilize a single piece of removal will generally put the game out of reach. In this Dreg Mangler is way better than the alternative s, but I wasn't restricting this to Mangler. Domri etc are good too. Domri as a 4 is always a hard sell. I'm actually only playing 2 right now.
Mind you just because I want something doesn't mean it will happen. But I suspect that having more 3's in general (and 2's that can attack or trade) is better time spent than being stuck with ramp when the first big threat dies and you're already in the low teens in life or the opponent has enough mana to one for one you for the foreseeable future.
The thing I didn't understand when I initially looked at the lists was how important Stormbreath is. The deck is counting on it not to die in certain matchups. That was a dynamic my GB and Junk decks lacked. It's also is what makes the monsters lists have so many issues against black decks . I just assumed it would always die and be just alright as a card but it turns around matchups that otherwise be almost impossible. The thing is all this makes me want to curve down not up. Mono Black is the best Midrange deck period. Big Jund doesn't actually bring that many better tools. There is even a black sweeper which sort of degrades the need to heavy splash red for Anger. Rakdos' Return any better than Gray Merchant and Erebos? The only bigger game than some Devotion mechanism in this format is Sphinx's Revelation and 6 mana planeswalkers. The only temporal big game involves making singular creatures bigger which tends to be reversed at great value and/or tempo loss. If the hope is to exploit the latter there is no slowing down.The format already has slowed down. So while in a sense going bigger will help against this new middle it plays into already existing strategies. The bigger question to me is if there anything in slightly more aggressive space that is still viable. We know what happens when we go bigger but now that a real middle exists and it's actually some of the more aggressive devotion decks on the back foot is there another angle there. I mean Mono Blue has kept those decks back and it isn't just us splashing black that solved it. It's become more hostile across the board. This is very much approaching a Kibler sort of metagame.I'd love to see if he's been brewing for Standard.
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I'm going to use your comments as justification for some of my choices from before Cedric Phillips and Kent Ketter popularized the deck like only running 3 Domri Rade and all kinds of scry lands. Actually, I am quite happy to see you finally found your way in here Cassial. I've been tinkering the deck towards more and more midrange as I've dropped a lot of my aggressive threes from pre-BNG (Dreg Mangler and Witchstalker). Also, I'm having trouble finding where I've previously posted it, but a Gruul Devotion splash black deck that won a PTQ I was at and basically scrubbed out with a Jund Aggro deck is one of the major reasons I kept working on the deck; it was confirmation that some part of my idea had merit. I'll try to find it again and PM it to you or something ... thanks for the kind words, it felt almost surreal to be slightly ahead of the curve for once. 6 weeks ago Witchstalker was a surprising choice (in my opponents' opinions) that could steal a lot of game 1s in that metagame where each top tier deck was blue and/or black; now, I have to run Reaper of the Wilds and up my curve for the near-mirror.
I love my mix of 4 Ghor-Clan Rampager, 3 Polukranos, World Eater, and 3 Reaper of the Wilds at four. Maybe Reaper should be a four over GCR, but I really like having access to each one ... like Cassial mentions and you've referenced in the past, sometimes there's just too many four drops to select from ... I moved the Xenagos, the Reveler completely to the SB - bring 2 in for Poly-k against monoblack and UW/x where he's just okay.
It's really coming full circle if you've almost talked me into trying Varolz, the Scar-Striped again. I was playing Golgari splash red at first and it just felt so slow, but yeah, it had a powerful endgame if/when you got there. Besides, this was before Last Breath was a fairly common card which would feel pretty terrible to lose a Varolz that way. However, I get that it's a variation on "dies to Doom Blade" argument.
Crazy talk, but I'm running the Xenagos, God of Revels in the slot of the fourth Stormbreath Dragon (I still don't have 4 dragons, but now I have another five drop that can just win a game out of nowhere). It can have issues, but I've seen Gruul Monsters trounce me with it to top 8s in a row.
Crazy talk part 2, but I still like running all the scry lands too - Temple of Malice lets me pack 2 Hero's Downfall in the board for games when I don't have enough Dreadbore or need instant speed version.
Next thing I want to do in here is walk through CVM's recent article (the part about sideboarding) from the perspective of a player committed to Jund - he seems to indicate he'll be playing some sort of Jund Monsters himself soon enough. I'll see if I have time for that later tonight - it's as much for me to get better at that part of the game as anything, but I thought I should document my thoughts on it in here. Keep at it everyone!
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Temple of Abandon
3 Temple of Malice
Creatures(33):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Burning Tree Emissary
3 Skylasher
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Herald of Torment
1 Varolz, the Scar Striped
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Dreadbore
2 Domri Rade
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
2 Golgari Charm
3 Gift of Orzhova
1 Varolz, the Scar Striped
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
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I definitely understand and see your desire to curve down here, since the 2-4 curve or 1-3/4 curve is sometimes clunky. Looking big picture here at the moment, Mono-Black and U/W decks are both becoming very...unconcerned with what you're actually playing. Let me link an article by P Sully, who I believe explains it brilliantly (even if it's slightly before BNG released, not much has changed with regards to MBD and U/W) http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27810_Reflections-From-Baltimore.html
The biggest point I'm trying to stress/only takeaway from it, which you probably already know, the catchall 3 mana removal spells Detention Sphere and Hero's Downfall simply do not care at all about enemy text boxes, of course as well as Thoughtseize. In a tempo sense, I personally am not that bothered by losing a PolyK or GCR, or Reaper on a one for one, it's a very negligible 1 for 1 most of the time, since we're playing the extra mana guys, their 3 mana is our 4 mana, "in a sense". You are completely correct in theory that overloading the expensive catch-all removal with cheap threats can definitely work (while you build up too), but I believe there's definitely some angles to consider in utilizing some expensive threats. You're also right that trying to 1 for 1 them all day with our 12+ 4 drops is ultimately playing their game...I believe that's primarily because our archetype is hurting for a Kessig Wolf Run or *some* kind of inevitability for when games really go late.
I'd say yes, PolyK, and Reaper are both your ideal T3 plays against explosive aggro, obviously. I'm in agreement with you for sure otherwise on here.
Here's where I disagree, and it's not because you're wrong at all, I just think there's more to be explored here, let me use a few examples.
-First off, sure Rakdos's Return is fine, and doesn't really have a home, but I could care less/not speculating on the best use of it right now...instead, what about Sire of Insanity? Even if you're not against a Black or U/W deck, I honestly believe using him as the top of your curve is completely valid, and synergistic in this shell. With 8 Scry-lands, Reaper scrys, Domri and Courser filtering, your topdecks are going to be absolutely backbreaking compared to an opponent's, theoretically speaking, he seems like a perfect fit in here IMO. Furthermore, if you resolve the Sire against Monoblack/U/W and they don't immediately kill it, it's pretty safe to say you lock the game up.
-Xenagos, God of Revels - This card is bonkers, and black decks have no solution to him other than the lucky Thoughtseize. I'm not saying anything new about Xenagod, and it's quickly being adopted as a 2-of in mains and sides, there's no need to extrapolate on him. What I do find great about Xenagod though, is running him in tandem with Nylea (2-of). They don't necessarily have to see each other, but, having a mix of beefy monsters, planeswalkers, and indestructible gods is the angle I want to be attacking at, in the face of 1 for 1 kill spells and sweepers for days. Eventually one of the Big Punishers will stick, and if they don't have the right answer at the right time, they're screwed.
-Last point - I see Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and Sire of Insanity as kind of like Xenagod/Nylea numbers 5-8. No, not because they're resilient, but, because they demand instant interaction, or break the game wide open. Thar - I've been an advocate of this guy in the main as a 2-of for a very long time. Yes, he's expensive, but, in these "go big midrange wars" there's nothing I'd rather have, especially if I'm playing from behind. He trumps the Stormbreath Dragons in the mirrors, and helps me stabilize while going back on the offense at the same time. The concept here I'm getting at is that with the mix of our medium threats and planeswalkers, we are first trying to force the removal/attack the cards in their hand, ignoring life total. Or, 4 indestructible Gods can beat face, while being significantly harder to interact with. Eventually, you go for the "lockout" card like Thar/Sire.
I suppose you could say I'm looking for expensive silver bullets, that can quickly put a game away on their own if unanswered, while letting your 4's soak up removal. I hope these examples illustrated what I'm getting at somewhat, but there's definitely more to it than just saying going bigger is only going to make us more prone to removal. It might, or, it may put us in a position to trump games, and that's where I believe there's merit in "going big". Not to be a Timmy and make 99/99 BFM's, but for the sake of utilizing big cards that have multiple powerful angles of attack.
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South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
That's sort of the difficult in what they did with devotion in this format. It annoys me to no end. Devotion has the best ramp, best value creatures, biggest swingy effects. Furthermore it has the most redundancy which makes cards like Thoughtseize that much more good in it and middle ground against it. Like if you find a way to leverage Ramp, it's likely a Devotion version will be better. If you find a way to play big into the end game it's likely you just flat lose to Mono Black. It has loosened up a bit and I have to give Wizards some cred as making mono or near mono colour this good takes a lot of work (and balance not to make it too oppressive). Mind you from my perspective it feels more oppressive than Caw Blade. Because atleast there you could always borrow a bit of what they are doing and find a way to fight it directly. Here you can't borrow, as they will always be better at being Devoted. The only thing they can't do is play the all best threats in a vacuum. They need to build momentum, so either you can look at this as an opportunity to build yourself and try to ride a threat(or class of threats) that is hard for them but this is different for almost every matchup, you can dedicate yourself to preventing their game plan but probably lose to mono black, or you pull ahead in tempo that what they play doesn't matter. The latter 2 have worked pretty consistently at times (ie.. Control, a deck like Mono White). The first is really hit or miss. Obviously we have to do all these things in some way which firmly plants us in the middle somewhere. It's easy to just end up not good enough at anything.
Specifics.. um, yeah Nylea is a card I've been trying to get working for a while. At first I looked at Bow as a way to leverage, Xenagos seemed a bit better and started replacing Bow in my lists. Trample everything just seems so good just to get in there. I mean obviously we'd kill for Overrun in this format (but Devotion would be better.. picture T3 swing for 18 sort of action). Gods will eventually take over unless the opponent is Mono Removal(Black) or control. I was especially psyched on Xenagos for some sort of resilience, but it doesn't matter if everything else dies. The gods are pretty awkward that way. Some pinpoint removal and it is all over (unless you are Gruul Devotion, ie spewing BTE's). Mono Black doesn't have to care about Xenagos once it gets ahead of the gambit. The turn you play Xenagos is the turn they do so as well most likely. It's funny cause it encourages them to kill creatures which in turn makes it less likely for Xenagos to ever turn on. The thing is if they couldn't kill your creatures already.. you probably already won.
Thar seems really good right now. I like Thar. I stopped playing it when I realized that the deck I built to support it did so much less until I played it, then the opponent took 6 down to 12, and went on with their day. Still very good against Control. Mono Black less so but atleast respectable. I also tried Sire but got rid of it the instant I realized that if I was playing such a plodding game my CA meant just as much if not more. Like you have to kill that Connections or Pack Rat or Sire backfires. Play it too early and it's less likely you draw out of it, play it too late and it doesn't matter. The problem is we have scry, the real midrange/control decks have draw+scry. I mean we can play our own Connections I suppose + ramp .. sort of goes back to that deck doing nothing before landing the 6 drop. I'm sure these will take some games but I wonder what the cost of construction is, and how much it mitigates your own play skill if the opponent lucks out of it and you've given up your resources as well. Sire is a very dangerous weapon. I always remember the one game the opponent lands it with 4 cards left in hand I with 3.. we both discard not too much relevant crap.. I have like a Dreg Mangler against his 6/4.. Then I top deck Nighthowler and have a 15/15 Dreg Manger.. you can guess how that went. Obviously an exception. You don't always draw Varolz, or Nighthowler,.. but it has happened enough times that the player draws Downfall that it isn't fullproof enough for me to trust. When UW only had sorcery speed removal for it and relied solely on Sphinx.. go for it. Now it's a pretty big gamble. Enough about Sire.
Maybe thing is every format we look for those silver bullets. Any at 5 generally make the cut. It takes a very special format for 6's to work and while they have existed (Zendikar Standards) it usually requires just the stupidest 6 (Primeval Titan) or crazy ramp cards(think Lotus Cobra, or even reasonable ramp cards). This format seems to be all about 4 drops.. the threshold at which the cost of the removal and the power level of the creature is on par. In some formats you can't play 4 drops without value.. in this format it's 5 drops. It's been pushed back a full turn since we can't get there really any faster.
Usually I think targeted Discard is unimpressive. It doesn't cost your opponent tempo, so they just draw out of it. This format makes Thoughtseize look better than it is. Thoughtseize isn't ever luck, it's a science. The science that you start ever game at a Mulligan to 6 without your best card. It doesn't matter what that card is, just that you won't have it. Usually that wouldn't matter much, but we tend to be pretty ambitious since we know that nothing lives and we lack real redundancy. Maybe we play enough threats that it won't keep us off our end game.. Maybe back Thoughtseize up with Lifebane Zombie and kill alls. Mono Black is such a funny deck in that a lot of people underestimate it, and sometimes it just isn't very good. But it's so much like last summers Jund. The deck is so good if played by skilled players against most things. I don't think it has many bad matchups (the mirror?).
That concept of UW and Black not caring about the text of early cards is spot on. Actually I think when playing full GB was the only deck that I felt like I forced them to care. I remember reading that Patrick Sullivan article and thinking how true it general was and how annoying that is as an aggro deck. Oh wait.. rereading.. it sounds like most of this post is just paraphrasing him .. And he ends off talking about the Gods (or GW). I haven't tried Mogis yet.. hmm.. Anyway I guess I'm done for now.
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