Since it has come up a couple of times in the main (Gruul Aggro/Midrange thread), I thought I would start a new variant thread to keep any further discussion out of the main thread. I started dabbling again in Jund after adding a few Overgrown Tomb and/or Blood Crypt to the manabase fairly early on to make it possible to more easily fuse Flesh//Blood; it wasn't too much longer I was trying Jund Aggressive Midrange with R as the splash third color and including a few Varolz, the Scar-Striped and Reaper of the Wilds in the deck. However, I wasn't as happy with the list and started working back towards more what I'll present here. I've previously worked on Jund Aggressive Midrange both this standard season and last standard season. I was also working on a Gruul Midrange primer last season. I'm not saying this to claim I'm any sort of expert (they play at bigger events than I ever will) but rather to show I have considerable experience with similar decks and to help provide context for any readers who aren't familiar with my contributions.
The point of splashing B in Gruul Monsters is primarily to allow for a few specific possible upgrades - most of which appear in the sideboard. Consider the following typical list:
If we're only interested in improving a few cards without really changing this list much, here's where I would begin after trying quite a few variations:
OUT: 3 Boon Satyr IN: 3 Dreg Mangler
Dreg Mangler has haste which is still faster than end-step flash Boon Satyr and can survive blocking a 2/x if you are forced to play defensively. Dreg Mangler has the flexibility of being played as a three-drop and then potentially scavenged as a five-drop which is comparable or perhaps even better than playing a Boon Satyr as a three-drop or five-drop (but not both!). Dreg Mangler plays better against black removal as it cannot be targeted by Doom Blade or Ultimate Price and can be scavenged later if you sacrifice it to Devour Flesh or Desecration Demon.
OUT: 2 Plummet IN: 2 Dreadbore
While harder to cast and lacking instant speed, Dreadbore can kill most creatures instead of just flyers and can also hit planeswalkers. It is rarely a dead draw and decent against almost any common deck in the metagame. I personally run Dreadbore in the main instead of Mizzium Mortars for these reasons.
OUT: 2 Shock IN: 2 Abrupt Decay
Whitle harder to cast, Abrupt Decay eliminates almost any commonly played creature you would Shock but also creatures that can be hard to efficiently deal with in combat like Advent of the Wurm tokens, Boros Reckoner, or Loxodon Smiter. Abrupt Decay can also get rid of annoying non-creature permanents such as opposing Domri Rade, D-sphere, or Underworld Connections.
OUT: 3 Forest, 3 Mountain, 2 Mutavault IN: 4 Overgrown Tomb, 4 Blood Crypt
The deck wouldn't be Jund without Tomb and Crypt; however, some people would understandably hesitate at giving up Mutavault. I feel like Mutavault is too greedy in most three-color manabases. The deck can have some trouble finding mana as it is without including lands that tap for colorless. I think 2 Mutavault is truly the opportunity cost of switching from Gruul Monsters to Jund Monsters, but I personally feel like the net gain from the other switches more than makes up for it.
To recap, these exchanges some consistency in the manabase for much greater flexibility in a handful of the card slots and represent the bare minimum of moving from Gruul Monsters to Jund Monsters. Other cards worth considering:
Vraska, the Unseen - I've been trying this card as a singleton in the sideboard; however, I'm not sure we really need her as she's often for other planeswalker heavy decks (and we're decent at attacking planeswalkers). I've also brought her in as extra removal against aggro, and she is just too slow even when you're not having to wait until turn five to cast her.
Varolz, the Scar-Striped & Reaper of the Wilds - as I mentioned, I've tried these and I feel like they push the deck too far into midrange. Both are really good in long grindy games, but you don't want to intentonally play that game. I often describe the decks I tend to favor as the 'fastest midrange deck in the room,' but I sometimes have trouble maintaining that focus and dabble in cards like these.
Thoughtseize - I've run this as a two-of in the main and sideboard. The life-loss is problematic against more aggressive decks especially when coupled with the number of shocklands in the deck, so I quickly moved it to sideboard only. It can be pretty disruptive against a control-opponent who should already be scrambling to stabilize and weakness to Thoughtseize is often cited as the reason to play Monsters over Gruul-based devotion decks (so I generally bring them in there and against Boros Devotion).
Doom Blade, Ultimate Price, & Hero's Downfall - I would forgive anyone for giving in to the allure of black-based instant speed removal. However, I prefer Dreadbore's flexibility without the difficult BB mana requirement of Hero's Downfall.
Other cards I want to discuss in this shell ...
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed - I love this card, but we bring in spells against U-based control. Is he good enough against B-based control to deserve a slot? To this point, my answer has always been 'no.'
Scavenging Ooze - the incidental life-gain is appreciated here a lot more than in the straight Gruul build. Does this card deserve three slots? Some people have cut copies or even removed the card completely from their Gruul decks.
Kalonian Tusker & Witchstalker - I've been trying these cards for a while and am starting to see more results that include these instead of either ScOoze or Boon Satyr. Tusker is a turn two play that can slow down weenie aggro decks or provide early pressure against the rest of the field but is inferior to any of the other GG options (Scavenging Ooze, Witchstalker, Boon Satyr, Polukranos) beyond the early game. Witchstalker's text box makes him pretty good in the current metagame. Witchstalker is actually my preferred target for things like Ghor-Clan Rampager, scavenged Dreg Mangler, and Blood as he cannot be easily removed in response.
Flesh//Blood - Kibler also says to give up the occasional surprise Blood win for more consistent creature-kill. Chris VanMeter argues it's an important part of winning against monoblue. I've won a few games out of nowhere with Blood, but I've also had a copy sit around in my hand as well. Is playing a singleton copy the correct compromise between these very different professional opinions?
Domri Rade - there are several match-ups where we would sideboard a copy or two of Domri out due to all the spells coming in. He's also no longer practically an autowin against control on turn 2. Can we get a way with shaving a copy?
With those discussions and leading questions out of the way, I present my current build of Jund Monsters - hopefully, this will prove useful to someone other than just myself (typing these up does help me clarify my own thoughts!). I made a disappointing showing at a PTQ with an inferior version of the deck a couple of weeks ago, but the event was won by green-heavy Gruul devotion splashing black for a lot of similar reasons. This kept me working on the deck to bring it to this point of focusng on what Gruul Monsters is trying to accomplish but with some intended improvements in card selection. I hope to take one more shot at a PTQ this weekend before I start trying to incorporate cards like Temple of Malice, Fanatic of Xenagos, and Xenagos, God of Revels ...
Part of me wants to cut the Sylvan Caryatid down to only two copies for either a third Tusker or Ooze or something else that would be better in the mid-to-late game. However, the deck is three colors and running a lot of four and five drops - I think I will end up playing this one safe.
I only have three Stormbreath Dragon, but I'm not sure I could run a full playset and Chandra anyway - I have as many red sources as a Gruul version, but it doesn't always feel like it in game.
The pair of Skylasher in the sideboard is entirely due to the fact that monoblue is still beating me too often on the back of a bunch of small flyers.
The ? in the sideboard has been a Bow of Nylea for its versatility; however, I think I'd rather have another copy of something else from the side or main or the singleton Vraska, the Unseen in this slot. I've also been wanting to try a singleton Gaze of Granite to wreck weenie and devotion strategies (generally cast for x=2).
EDIT: With Cedric Phillips posting an article/list after trying something similar at a PTQ the weekend of 2-15-14, I want to make it explicity clear that he was my inspiration and motivation for brewing this deck. I've repeatedly referenced Cedric's work in my usual Stomping Grounds (pun!): Gruul Aggressive Midrange primer from last season, ryansolid's Domri Jund thread from this season, and ryansolid's Gyre Sage Jund thread from last season. However, I'm expecting increased interest in the deck in the near future and had not given him his due when I started this thread. ... I didn't start this thread as a primer, so I didn't appropriately credit Cedric Phillips or several other SCG writers such as Todd Anderson, Brian-Braun Duin, Brad Nelson, and especially Chris VanMeter for producing content about the Gruul decks that would be my starting point (for example, I included a history section in my Gruul primer). Cedric Phillips unleashed 'Unfriendly Skies' upon the world a few months into my most recent return to this game and his work has informed every deck I've taken to any non-FNM event since I started playing competitively again about a year ago. end disclaimer/gush
Moo, it looks like that's a 59 card deck list and you only have 22 lands. Should it be 5 forests to go to 23 lands, since you took 3 from the original 8.
Moo, it looks like that's a 59 card deck list and you only have 22 lands. Should it be 5 forests to go to 23 lands, since you took 3 from the original 8.
thanks - you are correct; I know I run 5 Forest yet had been typing '4' for the other lands up to that point, I guess?
in other news, one of my MtG friends whose opinion I respect (has won IQs and t8'd an SCG Open) says drop the Kalonian Tusker completely to get the third Scavenging Ooze and something else (Witchstalker or Dreg Mangler ???) back in there - used my own argument that it's really good but only on turn 2 to persuade me that they're not necessary - doesn't help that there are a few occasions when you would have the Tusker but not GG on turn 2 either - glad to see it popping up in the devotion lists some though
I did try the list. I can't remember what the flex slot was but I did go 3-1 at FNM.
Round 1 mono black 2-0
I didn't take notes, game 1 I saw no pack rats. Game 2, I managed to use Domri's fight. Both games I drew multiple walkers.
Round 2 orzov control. 0-2 pack rats just tore me apart. Game 2 I abrupt decayed the first rat, but he had another one in hand and I couldn't get an answer in time.
Round 3 Dimir build with rats and other goodies. 2-1.
First 2 games were pretty good, I know game 1 he took with nightveil spectors. Game 3 he got mana screwed and I was able to take it.
Round 4 Naya 2-1.
Game 1, she managed to load up the board and won. I tried to drag it out but couldn't come up with a good answer before being overwhelmed. Game 2 overloaded mortars cleared the board, then I managed to gain some life with an scavenging ooze (I was at 1) and come back from there. Game 3 I landed a dragon and she had no answer.
I won't get a chance to play this again at the local store until bng comes in. The tuskers were okay, but I don't think I ever had a turn 2 tusker. I'm also thinking of changing up the planeswalkers in there.
Possible changes
-2 tuskers
+1 witchstalker
+1 dreg mangler
-3 xenagos
-1 Chandra
+1 Domri
+2 Garruk
-2 dreadbore
+2 hero's downfall (I almost always had double black up and only cast 1 dreadbore all night)
or
+2 ultimate price
My personal thoughts are that I don't think domri and xenagos work great together in the same deck. It might just be because of the black dominated meta and if it was more control heavy they'd be better but right now, if you can't answer pack rat then you're screwed. If you can get them off pack rat then you're much better off. If you want to run lots of creatures, go domri + garruk. If you want the more control version run xenagos + Chandra.
weather prevented me from attending the PTQ (I promised my wife that I wouldn't go if there was a significant amount of snow on the road, and they were pretty messy that morning) - however, I was able to attend the follow-up $1k cash event being held by the same shop the next day. I haven't seen a promotion like this before, you could earn free entry into the follow-up tourney by playing in the PTQ and spending at least $5 with each of the other vendors present. I had to pay the full $25 entry free, but it ended up being worth it as probability was on my side that particular day and rolled through my matches fairly easily into the top 8 ...
The morning of I borrowed a Garruk, Caller of Beasts for the main and decided to keep the singleton Vraska the Unseen in the sideboard to give me access to five different planeswalkers in the 75. I also cut the third Mistcutter Hydra (reminder: I was also trying two Skylasher) for the third Abrupt Decay; my idea being that Abrupt Decay is as good or better against mono-blue devotion as Mistcutter but offers more flexibility against other devotion and weenie aggro decks at the cost of possibly hurting my UWx control match-up that I now feel is actually one of my better match-ups. I had also already cut the 2 Kalonian Tusker for the third Scavenging Ooze and fourth Witchstalker and reluctantly trimmed the lone Flesh//Blood for to make room for a fourth unique planeswalker in the maindeck (originally Vraska but Garruk is just so much in line with the maindeck strategy) since my original post. I almost thought about playing one or two Flesh//Blood in the sideboard to have access to it in the match-ups where I really like it but hoped to trade explosiveness for consistency in the end.
I start the tournament 4-0 only losing one game on a so-so keep putting me at the top table and double-draw into top 8 ... the details are hidden since the format is about to change and some readers may not really want a couple sentences on each round
Round 1: W 2-0 against Esper Devotion - a key moment in this match (my opponent brought it back up himself as we signed the slip) was deciding to play Domri Rade and fight an Elvish Mystic on a Pack Rat in the early turns of a game knowing a Mutavault would finish the Domri.
Round 2: W 2-0 against Esper Control - I lived the dream and had all four maindeck planeswalkers going in game 2. I ended the turn before I won by discarding 2 Elvish Mystic and 2 Mizzium Mortars as I had played something off Chandra's +0, drawn a creature off Domri's +1, and drawn four creatures off Garruk's +1.
I feel like I have a pretty good Esper match-up as long as their draw isn't perfect and I can apply consistent pressure without over-extending into Supreme Verdict as I can save Witchstalker or Stormbreath for the follow-up and both dodge Detention Sphere. This is pretty much exactly what happened in both these matches. I believe I did mulligan one opening hand to 6 (would have to check my notes to be sure) in these four games.
Round 3: W 2-1 against Boros Devotion. Nerves were starting to kick in as I was already at the top tables since I hadn't lost a game yet. I won game 1 thinking I was playing against Big Boros Midrange; however, it was fair as he didn't see any black out of my deck in game 1 either. Opponent commented something like 'didn't expect Witchstalker to blank all my removal.' We went into game 2 both operating off of incomplete information ... Game 2, I thought about taking a mulligan on the draw, but I had Thoughtseize into Abrupt Decay to stall hopefully long enough to draw into a third land. I went for it and didn't play anything. Between the Thoughtseize and dying, I saw a lot more of his deck than he did mine ... I re-sideboarded taking out a few aggro cards for even more removal. Game 3, I stuck a threat and kept blowing up stuff of his for the win.
Round 4: W 2-0 against Esper Control. This opponent seemed to be a fairly good control player but he had mulligans compared to my snap keeps. He actually did the turn 1 Thoughtseize ... pause ... nervous laugh ... 'I don't think I can win, but I'm taking the ____' He ended up 9th I believe ... Around this time, it was starting to feel pretty real, and there were a couple people giving me kudos and asking questions about the list.
Round 5: My probable opponent is an acquaintance and approached me after games during round 4. I wasn't sure what he was playing, but he said "I'm afraid of your deck; if we're at table 1, do you want to intentional draw? We'll both be able to double-draw and still make top 8" I told him that I would think about it, but I was also fairly interested in being guaranteed to be on the play too. I consulted some other friends/acquaintances who have more experience with such things and kept hearing the same thing - just draw in to guarantee t8 without worrying about seeding. Sure enough, we're at table one and the only other undefeated player was a UW control player who had just won a mirror match via decking without ever going to sideboarded games (talk about miserable). I agree to the draw.
Round 6: I'm still at table 1 for the final round despite the draw and my pairing is against another acquaintance that I know even better. We talked when I first arrived and we both know what each is playing (he's on Orzhov Weenie Aggro with lots of Humans + Xathrid Necromancer) Based on posted standings, the entire top 4 tables can mutually agree to just start the top 8 if everyone agrees to draw. I would somehow still be the #1 seed, so I don't even begin to question it this time. I start sorting my deck as I try to remember and/or figure out what everyone else is playing ...
Jund Monsters, Naya Monsters, Gruul Monsters, two monoblack control, Orzhov Humans (ID from round 6), Boros Devotion (ID from round 5), and the Azorious Control deck I mentioned ... I felt pretty good except for the near mirrors. I feel like I'm better on paper than straight Gruul Monsters as long as I don't stumble on mana as it curves out (foreshadowing ...).
Top 8, Quarterfinals: I win 2-0 against Naya Monsters; both games I play a threat and just remove their blockers and walkers via Ghor-Clan Rampager in game 1 and removal game 2. Splashing for Dreadbore and Vraska was better than Chained to the Rocks at least this one time (I only remember him playing one - I had Witchstalker, Stormbreath, and an Elvish Mystic out, so it didn't matter much at that point). Game 2 is more of the same and included a Vraska -3 to kill something and then trading with a opposing Stormbreath a few turns later thanks to the +1. I had the draws to keep them on the backfoot the entire time.
Top 8, Semifinals: Anti-climatic ... I lose 0-2 against Gruul Monsters. This pilot had taken the stock Gruul Monsters list (BBD - see 1st post) to the finals at the PTQ the day before and is potentially one of the best two or three players in that area. I keep two weak but not terrible openers (no Elvish Mystic in either); I felt like a random six was too greedy in both cases as I had lands and spells just no acceleration. His draws are better and he's a good player - sealed the match with a blow-out monstrous Polukranos to 7/7 and kill my ScavOoze, attack my Chandra to force me to either let her die or chump with my 5/5 Polukranos, and then Blood my Polukranos post-combat when I decline to block. I got flustered a little game 1, and I think the following was a misplay in game 2 ...
I have the option to either play Chandra or Polukranos at four - I drop Chandra and kill his elf and tick his Domri down and attack with a Witchstalker. I now realize I should've played my own Polukranos, let him play his own Polukranos, monstrous mine first and attack - putting him in the situation similar to he put me in. I didn't know he had the Blood at the time, so I think he still would've had it in the end. Now, my play would've been really good if he had gotten stuck on three-mana and not been able to cast his Polukranos. I guess I focused more on that than what happens if he does still get his World Eater on board first.
So I lose to Gruul Monsters in the semifinals, and he goes on to beat the Azorious control deck in finals - my only match loss also sent me home instead of letting me take one a match-up I generally feel pretty good about for some fairly serious $$$.
Post-tournament Analysis:
I still really like the list overall but would consider a few minor tweaks before playing it again if Born of the Gods wasn't about to release.
1.) I clearly didn't need a third Scavenging Ooze since I never played against a weenie aggro deck and generally never had my life total pressured by much other than my own shocklands in my wins and couldn't gain enough to matter in my losses. I would've loved for this or the third Abrupt Decay in the sideboard to be a third Dreadbore. I had been running a third Dreadbore in one iteration of the deck and definitely missed it against the near mirrors. It would also be fine against monoblack, devotion, and weenie aggro compared to ScOoze and Abrupt.
2.) In a related note, Lordpiglet is potentially right; Ultimate Price hits almost the creatures we probably want to kill on sight, sacrificing a few corner cases (such as hard-cast Ghor-Clan Rampager, Loxodon Smiter, Reaper of the Wilds) and the ability to hit planeswalkers for instant speed and being slightly easier to cast. We can pressure planeswalkers pretty well with all big dudes, haste, and ability to bloodrush GCR; however, Dreadbore lets you focus on the opponent's life total. Of course, Hero's Downfall would be awesome, but I'm just not sure if we can afford the BB casting cost. I didn't try it for very long before abandoning two of these for Dreadbore. Perhaps I could test cutting the fifth Forest for a Swamp, but the deck is awfully green-heavy. I did not care for the Mountains being Rakdos Guildgate in testing either to better support the black splash - more on this in a bit ...
3.) The Gruul Monsters pilot said he prefers a more consistent manabase but understands why I'm splashing for black except he doesn't care for Dreg Mangler. I found it and Witchstalker to surprise people with their effectiveness at getting people dead and being somewhat resilient threats - however, I won't guarantee that I have the numbers correct here but rather that I don't miss Boon Satyr at all.
4.) If I squeeze a third Dreadbore in the main, then I would probably add a third Thoughtseize to the sideboard. You don't want them in a lot of match-ups, but you don't see them very often as a two-of either. I also almost ran a singleton Flesh//Blood if the third Dreadbore doesn't work out ...
5.) This deck feels downright unfair due to the multiple planeswalkers - I'm not sure if green/red have ever had anything resembling this sort of raw power and potential card advantage. Most of you may not remember cards like Sylvan Library ... but the current planeswalkers offer the same sort of advantage (card selection, options, possibly drawing multiple cards per turn) and maintain aggressive focus. I would consider a second Garruk in the sideboard, but running singleton copies of Chandra and Garruk worked out well for me that day.
No regrets but here's my updated 75 for pre-BNG ...
I can see people trying to jam Xenagos, God of Revels into Gruul Monsters. I think it would be a one- or two-of in my deck and would probably have to replace a planeswalker instead of a top-end creature, and I'm not sure if I'm okay with that yet. If I luck into one, I'll try it early - but not in a rush to possibly overpay for them yet.
On the other hand, Fanatic of Xenagos makes a case for replacing Witchstalker or Dreg Mangler. Replacing Witchstalker gives you more haste but hexproof seems pretty good right now with a lot decks relying on one-for-one removal - it remains my favorite creature to pump by bloodrush. Replacing Dreg Mangler lightens the demand for black mana but makes Doom Blade better against you and gives up scavenge which has pretty good at times. I like the card, but I'm not sure I love it yet.
I also think I prefer Skylasher to Skyreaping as a way to keep monoblue's flyers under control.
Temple of Malice will probably be the first new card in - I already said I didn't like Rakdos Guildgate, but I can excuse potentially getting two or three of these in there (who knew scry 1 would be so exciting!). Maybe three of these replace one Temple of Abandon and two Mountains, or perhaps you only want 5 Temples and 1 Mountain instead.
If there is another card I should be considering, I can't think of it right now ...
LordPiglet - no else has said a word, so consider this update my gift to you for believing in it enough to give it try!
I actually really really like this build. I plan to run it this Friday and I will take notes and let you know how it does. Thanks for posting all the insight that you have.
I'll be running this playtesting and possibly bringing it on Friday. I've maindecked the Vraska in lieu of the Chandra (accessibility more than anything). She's done work as a maindeck in the GB build I had been running. Replaced in the side by a third Mistcutter.
I'd agree that Satyr seems disappointing anywhere I try to jam him. The bestow, while nice with Flash seems to be overcosted/underwhelming. When you've got the mana to drop him where you want him, you're either too far ahead or behind for it to really matter.
My personal though, I might cut Polukranos for the Fanatics. As much as I want to love the world eater, I just feel it's along the class of boon satyr. A great looking card with potential but not right for the current meta (at least the pack rat dominated one I'm in)
I would also look at Mogus as a possibility over Xenagos.
I might consider Reaper of the Wilds over Polukranos. The possibility for hexproof, deathtouch and especially scry 1 each creature dies really essential in finding answers.
p/s : I don't think we're allowed to talk about BNG cards just yet.
I might consider Reaper of the Wilds over Polukranos. The possibility for hexproof, deathtouch and especially scry 1 each creature dies really essential in finding answers.
see this post to see my not very successful experience with a more midrange variant featuring Reaper (though I do like the card)
in theory, bloodrush Ghor-Clan Rampager onto Reaper of the Wilds with mana also up for activating Reaper seems good - however, it just wasn't fast enough in that deck at least
Probably a bit meta dependent. I ended up moving off of my Reaper/straight Junk build, no due to a lack of consistency, but more due to the speed dichotomy of midrange around me. It was too slow for aggro and not fast enough for control.
By moving further towards Exava and Cerberus or anything along those lines, we're also moving further from a splash into a hard split and less consistency. The scry land might help that, but until I'm playing with it, I'm not sure.
Ok so I have done some testing with this build. I really like it, it seems to have a good chance against the current field right now.
Thing is I am struggling to not have at least one Nykthos in there some where. I feel as long as we are still using Polukranos, World Eater a one of Nykthos just helps in those odd times we want to really blow up Polukranos. On that front not having a Blood in the 75 is really a struggle for me as well. It's ability to some times just win games is amazing.
Thing is I can't seem to find a way to get either card back in or for that matter if I really should be trying to.
Ok so I have done some testing with this build. I really like it, it seems to have a good chance against the current field right now.
Thing is I am struggling to not have at least one Nykthos in there some where. I feel as long as we are still using Polukranos, World Eater a one of Nykthos just helps in those odd times we want to really blow up Polukranos.
I built it hoping to have better match-ups against UW/x control, monoblack, monoblue, and Big Boros than Gruul monsters without any splash. I think my results at the tourney are largely a result of running into Esper multiple games in a row; I used to hate playing against UW/x control before the black splash now it might be the match-up of the top tier decks. I considered a singleton Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx when I was running even more permanents with GG in the casting cost. Without ever testing it, I decided that it was a bit of a 'win-more' in this deck. Most of the time it's going to help filter mana at best not really provide a burst of mana. I actually have been thinking about trying a singleton Unknown Shores instead of the fifth Forest for efficiently filtering mana. Remember I think the opportunity cost of playing this deck is giving up the option of playing lands that tap for colorless (i.e. Mutavault) in exchange for the options black mana provides.
On that front not having a Blood in the 75 is really a struggle for me as well. It's ability to some times just win games is amazing.
Thing is I can't seem to find a way to get either card back in or for that matter if I really should be trying to.
Recall that I had been originally looking at 2 Dreadbore and 1 Flesh//Blood as the non-creature, non-planeswalkers in the deck in the original post. If your metagame does not have a lot of mono-red or other weenie aggro decks (not monoblue devotion - that's more of a tempo or aggro-control deck), then cutting from three Scavenging Ooze to two copies would let you get a singleton Flesh//Blood back in there instead of a third Dreadbore. I contemplated this myself, but I think the 3rd Dreadbore might be better in near-mirrors like Gruul Monsters or Big Boros.
I built it hoping to have better match-ups against UW/x control, monoblack, monoblue, and Big Boros than Gruul monsters without any splash. I think my results at the tourney are largely a result of running into Esper multiple games in a row; I used to hate playing against UW/x control before the black splash now it might be the match-up of the top tier decks. I considered a singleton Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx when I was running even more permanents with GG in the casting cost. Without ever testing it, I decided that it was a bit of a 'win-more' in this deck. Most of the time it's going to help filter mana at best not really provide a burst of mana. I actually have been thinking about trying a singleton Unknown Shores instead of the fifth Forest for efficiently filtering mana. Remember I think the opportunity cost of playing this deck is giving up the option of playing lands that tap for colorless (i.e. Mutavault) in exchange for the options black mana provides.
Ok this makes perfect sense, I was not looking at it the right way. But you have made some very good points and I am going to stick with the mana base the deck has now. It has been working just fine, I am trying to do some more testing tonight vs ESPER humans and Mono black wish it was going to be more but thats all the decks I can round up tonight for testing.
Recall that I had been originally looking at 2 Dreadbore and 1 Flesh//Blood as the non-creature, non-planeswalkers in the deck in the original post. If your metagame does not have a lot of mono-red or other weenie aggro decks (not monoblue devotion - that's more of a tempo or aggro-control deck), then cutting from three Scavenging Ooze to two copies would let you get a singleton Flesh//Blood back in there instead of a third Dreadbore. I contemplated this myself, but I think the 3rd Dreadbore might be better in near-mirrors like Gruul Monsters or Big Boros.
My meta is all over the place, the better players seem to be playing UW/x builds or mono black. As someone who has just come from playing mono black since the start of Theros block I feel good about that match up. I know the deck better then anyone in my area who is now trying to play it. I think I might try the singleton blood in deck tonight just to see how it does. So far in my testing the dreadbores have been great but I really do like the sudden ending factor that blood can bring.
I will make sure to take notes Friday on how this does. I am really looking at making this my goto deck for the BNG time period. There are so many people at my LGS that are jumping on the mono black wagon now and I would love to be that guy that just beats it all the time and I see this being the right deck for my meta.
I did pull the 5th Forest for a Swamp - I considered running a singleton Unknown Shores and wish I'd tried it for giggles. I did have one opening hand with the Swamp that I wished it was a Forest, but the deck will have gain additional scry-temples soon. I also considered running a Flesh//Blood over the third Dreadbore again; Blood can win a game out of nowhere, but I just feel like Dreadbore is better at getting you back in a game if you're behind.
I went 3-1 which was good enough for 3rd place - not nearly as exciting/impressive as last weekend t8 in the cash event
W 2-1 over monoblack: won both sideboarded games though he flooded a little and I topdecked a Mizzium Mortars right after Thoughtseize stole one the turn before I was planning to overload it in game 3 to turn the corner against a small army of Pack Rats and eventually won the match with Garruk emblem into double Stormbreath.
L 0-2 against monoblue: remains the toughest match-up among tier-1 decks in my opinion - long grindy game 1 Rapid Hybridization kept Polukranos from helping me stabilize twice - game 2 I mulligan four land and three cards that are 4/5 drops as I just don't feel it stands a chance against an aggressive start and keep a slightly better 6 but do not draw enough of the removal I brought in from the sideboard
W 2-0 over Azorious control - I won these games fair and square but they were against my son - he almost forced a game 3 on the back of six 1/1 soldier tokens (I killed the Elspeth, Sun's Champion with a Dreadbore), but I forced him to Supreme Verdict with me at 5 life to reset the board and won the topdeck race.
W 2-0 over Izzet Blitz deck with things Young Pyromancer, Spellheart Chimera, Akroan Crusader, and spells - was a bit of a home brew. Game 1 I was quickly at 10 life before stabilizing. Game 2 I wasn't really pressured as quickly and took control more easily.
a couple of you said you were going to play something similar at 'last chance' FNM tonight - hope you did well but let me know either way
weather prevented me from attending the PTQ (I promised my wife that I wouldn't go if there was a significant amount of snow on the road, and they were pretty messy that morning) - however, I was able to attend the follow-up $1k cash event being held by the same shop the next day. I haven't seen a promotion like this before, you could earn free entry into the follow-up tourney by playing in the PTQ and spending at least $5 with each of the other vendors present. I had to pay the full $25 entry free, but it ended up being worth it as probability was on my side that particular day and rolled through my matches fairly easily into the top 8 ...
The morning of I borrowed a Garruk, Caller of Beasts for the main and decided to keep the singleton Vraska the Unseen in the sideboard to give me access to five different planeswalkers in the 75. I also cut the third Mistcutter Hydra (reminder: I was also trying two Skylasher) for the third Abrupt Decay; my idea being that Abrupt Decay is as good or better against mono-blue devotion as Mistcutter but offers more flexibility against other devotion and weenie aggro decks at the cost of possibly hurting my UWx control match-up that I now feel is actually one of my better match-ups. I had also already cut the 2 Kalonian Tusker for the third Scavenging Ooze and fourth Witchstalker and reluctantly trimmed the lone Flesh//Blood for to make room for a fourth unique planeswalker in the maindeck (originally Vraska but Garruk is just so much in line with the maindeck strategy) since my original post. I almost thought about playing one or two Flesh//Blood in the sideboard to have access to it in the match-ups where I really like it but hoped to trade explosiveness for consistency in the end.
I start the tournament 4-0 only losing one game on a so-so keep putting me at the top table and double-draw into top 8 ... the details are hidden since the format is about to change and some readers may not really want a couple sentences on each round
Round 1: W 2-0 against Esper Devotion - a key moment in this match (my opponent brought it back up himself as we signed the slip) was deciding to play Domri Rade and fight an Elvish Mystic on a Pack Rat in the early turns of a game knowing a Mutavault would finish the Domri.
Round 2: W 2-0 against Esper Control - I lived the dream and had all four maindeck planeswalkers going in game 2. I ended the turn before I won by discarding 2 Elvish Mystic and 2 Mizzium Mortars as I had played something off Chandra's +0, drawn a creature off Domri's +1, and drawn four creatures off Garruk's +1.
I feel like I have a pretty good Esper match-up as long as their draw isn't perfect and I can apply consistent pressure without over-extending into Supreme Verdict as I can save Witchstalker or Stormbreath for the follow-up and both dodge Detention Sphere. This is pretty much exactly what happened in both these matches. I believe I did mulligan one opening hand to 6 (would have to check my notes to be sure) in these four games.
Round 3: W 2-1 against Boros Devotion. Nerves were starting to kick in as I was already at the top tables since I hadn't lost a game yet. I won game 1 thinking I was playing against Big Boros Midrange; however, it was fair as he didn't see any black out of my deck in game 1 either. Opponent commented something like 'didn't expect Witchstalker to blank all my removal.' We went into game 2 both operating off of incomplete information ... Game 2, I thought about taking a mulligan on the draw, but I had Thoughtseize into Abrupt Decay to stall hopefully long enough to draw into a third land. I went for it and didn't play anything. Between the Thoughtseize and dying, I saw a lot more of his deck than he did mine ... I re-sideboarded taking out a few aggro cards for even more removal. Game 3, I stuck a threat and kept blowing up stuff of his for the win.
Round 4: W 2-0 against Esper Control. This opponent seemed to be a fairly good control player but he had mulligans compared to my snap keeps. He actually did the turn 1 Thoughtseize ... pause ... nervous laugh ... 'I don't think I can win, but I'm taking the ____' He ended up 9th I believe ... Around this time, it was starting to feel pretty real, and there were a couple people giving me kudos and asking questions about the list.
Round 5: My probable opponent is an acquaintance and approached me after games during round 4. I wasn't sure what he was playing, but he said "I'm afraid of your deck; if we're at table 1, do you want to intentional draw? We'll both be able to double-draw and still make top 8" I told him that I would think about it, but I was also fairly interested in being guaranteed to be on the play too. I consulted some other friends/acquaintances who have more experience with such things and kept hearing the same thing - just draw in to guarantee t8 without worrying about seeding. Sure enough, we're at table one and the only other undefeated player was a UW control player who had just won a mirror match via decking without ever going to sideboarded games (talk about miserable). I agree to the draw.
Round 6: I'm still at table 1 for the final round despite the draw and my pairing is against another acquaintance that I know even better. We talked when I first arrived and we both know what each is playing (he's on Orzhov Weenie Aggro with lots of Humans + Xathrid Necromancer) Based on posted standings, the entire top 4 tables can mutually agree to just start the top 8 if everyone agrees to draw. I would somehow still be the #1 seed, so I don't even begin to question it this time. I start sorting my deck as I try to remember and/or figure out what everyone else is playing ...
Jund Monsters, Naya Monsters, Gruul Monsters, two monoblack control, Orzhov Humans (ID from round 6), Boros Devotion (ID from round 5), and the Azorious Control deck I mentioned ... I felt pretty good except for the near mirrors. I feel like I'm better on paper than straight Gruul Monsters as long as I don't stumble on mana as it curves out (foreshadowing ...).
Top 8, Quarterfinals: I win 2-0 against Naya Monsters; both games I play a threat and just remove their blockers and walkers via Ghor-Clan Rampager in game 1 and removal game 2. Splashing for Dreadbore and Vraska was better than Chained to the Rocks at least this one time (I only remember him playing one - I had Witchstalker, Stormbreath, and an Elvish Mystic out, so it didn't matter much at that point). Game 2 is more of the same and included a Vraska -3 to kill something and then trading with a opposing Stormbreath a few turns later thanks to the +1. I had the draws to keep them on the backfoot the entire time.
Top 8, Semifinals: Anti-climatic ... I lose 0-2 against Gruul Monsters. This pilot had taken the stock Gruul Monsters list (BBD - see 1st post) to the finals at the PTQ the day before and is potentially one of the best two or three players in that area. I keep two weak but not terrible openers (no Elvish Mystic in either); I felt like a random six was too greedy in both cases as I had lands and spells just no acceleration. His draws are better and he's a good player - sealed the match with a blow-out monstrous Polukranos to 7/7 and kill my ScavOoze, attack my Chandra to force me to either let her die or chump with my 5/5 Polukranos, and then Blood my Polukranos post-combat when I decline to block. I got flustered a little game 1, and I think the following was a misplay in game 2 ...
I have the option to either play Chandra or Polukranos at four - I drop Chandra and kill his elf and tick his Domri down and attack with a Witchstalker. I now realize I should've played my own Polukranos, let him play his own Polukranos, monstrous mine first and attack - putting him in the situation similar to he put me in. I didn't know he had the Blood at the time, so I think he still would've had it in the end. Now, my play would've been really good if he had gotten stuck on three-mana and not been able to cast his Polukranos. I guess I focused more on that than what happens if he does still get his World Eater on board first.
So I lose to Gruul Monsters in the semifinals, and he goes on to beat the Azorious control deck in finals - my only match loss also sent me home instead of letting me take one a match-up I generally feel pretty good about for some fairly serious $$$.
Post-tournament Analysis:
I still really like the list overall but would consider a few minor tweaks before playing it again if Born of the Gods wasn't about to release.
1.) I clearly didn't need a third Scavenging Ooze since I never played against a weenie aggro deck and generally never had my life total pressured by much other than my own shocklands in my wins and couldn't gain enough to matter in my losses. I would've loved for this or the third Abrupt Decay in the sideboard to be a third Dreadbore. I had been running a third Dreadbore in one iteration of the deck and definitely missed it against the near mirrors. It would also be fine against monoblack, devotion, and weenie aggro compared to ScOoze and Abrupt.
2.) In a related note, Lordpiglet is potentially right; Ultimate Price hits almost the creatures we probably want to kill on sight, sacrificing a few corner cases (such as hard-cast Ghor-Clan Rampager, Loxodon Smiter, Reaper of the Wilds) and the ability to hit planeswalkers for instant speed and being slightly easier to cast. We can pressure planeswalkers pretty well with all big dudes, haste, and ability to bloodrush GCR; however, Dreadbore lets you focus on the opponent's life total. Of course, Hero's Downfall would be awesome, but I'm just not sure if we can afford the BB casting cost. I didn't try it for very long before abandoning two of these for Dreadbore. Perhaps I could test cutting the fifth Forest for a Swamp, but the deck is awfully green-heavy. I did not care for the Mountains being Rakdos Guildgate in testing either to better support the black splash - more on this in a bit ...
3.) The Gruul Monsters pilot said he prefers a more consistent manabase but understands why I'm splashing for black except he doesn't care for Dreg Mangler. I found it and Witchstalker to surprise people with their effectiveness at getting people dead and being somewhat resilient threats - however, I won't guarantee that I have the numbers correct here but rather that I don't miss Boon Satyr at all.
4.) If I squeeze a third Dreadbore in the main, then I would probably add a third Thoughtseize to the sideboard. You don't want them in a lot of match-ups, but you don't see them very often as a two-of either. I also almost ran a singleton Flesh//Blood if the third Dreadbore doesn't work out ...
5.) This deck feels downright unfair due to the multiple planeswalkers - I'm not sure if green/red have ever had anything resembling this sort of raw power and potential card advantage. Most of you may not remember cards like Sylvan Library ... but the current planeswalkers offer the same sort of advantage (card selection, options, possibly drawing multiple cards per turn) and maintain aggressive focus. I would consider a second Garruk in the sideboard, but running singleton copies of Chandra and Garruk worked out well for me that day.
No regrets but here's my updated 75 for pre-BNG ...
I can see people trying to jam Xenagos, God of Revels into Gruul Monsters. I think it would be a one- or two-of in my deck and would probably have to replace a planeswalker instead of a top-end creature, and I'm not sure if I'm okay with that yet. If I luck into one, I'll try it early - but not in a rush to possibly overpay for them yet.
On the other hand, Fanatic of Xenagos makes a case for replacing Witchstalker or Dreg Mangler. Replacing Witchstalker gives you more haste but hexproof seems pretty good right now with a lot decks relying on one-for-one removal - it remains my favorite creature to pump by bloodrush. Replacing Dreg Mangler lightens the demand for black mana but makes Doom Blade better against you and gives up scavenge which has pretty good at times. I like the card, but I'm not sure I love it yet.
I also think I prefer Skylasher to Skyreaping as a way to keep monoblue's flyers under control.
Temple of Malice will probably be the first new card in - I already said I didn't like Rakdos Guildgate, but I can excuse potentially getting two or three of these in there (who knew scry 1 would be so exciting!). Maybe three of these replace one Temple of Abandon and two Mountains, or perhaps you only want 5 Temples and 1 Mountain instead.
If there is another card I should be considering, I can't think of it right now ...
LordPiglet - no else has said a word, so consider this update my gift to you for believing in it enough to give it try!
Local game store ran a free Thursday night tournament with BNG available at midnight. After it, while waiting for the clock to strike, I did some play testing running a red/white boros burn against a frieds r/g deck. Xenagos is nuts, fanatacs are okay, but xenagos is nuts. Especially in the mirror.
Think the mix I'll try is to cut the Garruk and Chandra for 2 xenagos. Replace 1 world eater with 1 kalonian hydra.
Any testing with Rakdos's Return? I keep feeling like I want to splash light black in G/R monsters for Rakdos's Return (plus the sideboard tech already identified here), but I just don't have the time to playtest thoroughly. RR has the potential to be such a nice anti-control card with the upside of eating planeswalkers or serving as a simple fireball.
Any reason to avoid it? Is it not worth it to run a sorcery that thins your deck when you're running 3-4x Domri?
Any testing with Rakdos's Return? I keep feeling like I want to splash light black in G/R monsters for Rakdos's Return (plus the sideboard tech already identified here), but I just don't have the time to playtest thoroughly. RR has the potential to be such a nice anti-control card with the upside of eating planeswalkers or serving as a simple fireball.
Any reason to avoid it? Is it not worth it to run a sorcery that thins your deck when you're running 3-4x Domri?
I don't think you meant to say something about "thins your deck" ...
I've ran Rakdos's Return as a SB card in Jund Aggressive Midrange at some point in the last year. I haven't tested with it in this version. I haven't considered it too much as I feel like it's redundant with some of the other cards like Thoughtseize as discard or Dreadbore for planeswalkers or Mistcutter Hydra as a pseudo-Fireball (or Flesh//Blood if you choose to run that). Primarily, Rakdos's Return is a card that is really good in a long, grindy match-up where it might win you the game off the top of the deck - it pushes the deck even farther into midrange. I often say the goal of the decks I play is to be the most aggressive midrange deck in the room; a little bigger than weenie aggro but a turn or so faster than dedicated midrange decks. By all means try it, let me know how it does for you - what would you cut from my sideboard? Vraska the Unseen? The X-spell I've really wanted to try and haven't is Gaze of Granite; I think it would help shore up worse match-ups like weenie aggro or U devotion assuming you live long enough to peel it off the top and fire it off for x = 2. I'm currently debating trying to fit in 1-2 Underworld Cerberus as a five-drop with impact since I haven't valued Xenagos, God of Revels as priority yet, but this decision might also push the deck even further into midrange than I want to go. I also plan to swap Mountains for Temple of Malice and could jam Courser of Kruphix over Dreg Mangler if I decide to try it a little more midrange. The other change required by Born of the Gods is probably moving 2 Mizzium Mortars into the main to combat Brimaz, King of Oreskos pushing white weenie and putting the rest of the playset in the sideboard. I'll run 2 Dreadbore and 2 Mizzium Mortars main the next time I play this more than likely.
I'd like to know about your opinion on Illness in the ranks in Jund. It would help a great deal against Master of Waves, Pack rat, and most of all, Brimaz with his 1/1 cat tokens, and even a removal for a 1/1 voice token. (Though the probability of that is low.)
I'd like to know about your opinion on Illness in the ranks in Jund. It would help a great deal against Master of Waves, Pack rat, and most of all, Brimaz with his 1/1 cat tokens, and even a removal for a 1/1 voice token. (Though the probability of that is low.)
I didn't pull any Temple of Malice, so I haven't tested them. Also, Courser looked crazy on the latest SCG, but I want to test with Fanatic first. Courser probably works better in the list from The Meadery.
Okay, so you are running the Courser/Domri card advantage engine, but I am disturbed by the lack of Sire of Insanity.
This guy will end control matches by making them topdeck for answers, and your topdecks WILL be better than theirs.
With the new engine, you could be getting as many as three cards per turn while they find nothing.
Definitely needs to be a 2 of in Domri Jund.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
thanks for the link - interesting read ... Courser of Kruphix is better if you're leaning midrange and just trying to surivive until you can start dropping 4+ drops that each threaten to take over a game if unchecked. I pre-ordered Fanatic of Xenagos, but Dreg Mangler might honestly still be better in that slot if you're leaning towards aggressive midrange. Fanatic of Xenagos might end up being best in a Gruul Deck Wins where it and Ghor-Clan Rampager are the top of the curve as the opponent will hopefully be in trouble either way. I was going to try to play in the Louisville TCG $1k event tomorrow, but it's been cancelled. If I play somewhere else, I'll let you all know how it goes ... I guess I'll be playing this?
some card choices aren't actually quite where I want them yet - Temple of Malice are in transit and would be 2 Mountain, 1 Swamp right now if I have to live without - I'm going to try a singleton Underworld Cerberus if I can't borrow or easily get a Xenagos, God of Revels - I've only managed to get 1 Courser of Kruphix so far; I can play Dreg Mangler a little longer!
Sideboard hasn't changed much - Thoughtseize actually might be the only thing I would try as something else. I hate running Skylasher but the match up against monoblue devotion and its flyers still just feels so bad. Rakdos's Return and Sire of Insanity are good cards, but I already feel pretty good against UW/x control and monoblack control isn't too bad - do these do enough in problematic match-ups in someone else's opinion? they feel like more slots devoted to the Sphinx's Revelation decks that we do not need any more help in. Actually, I'd feel like these cards would have to replace Mistcutter Hydra in terms of role - maybe I should test one or the other in that slot ...
I was going to try to play in the Louisville TCG $1k event tomorrow, but it's been cancelled. If I play somewhere else, I'll let you all know how it goes ... I guess I'll be playing this?
some card choices aren't actually quite where I want them yet - Temple of Malice are in transit and would be 2 Mountain, 1 Swamp right now if I have to live without - I'm going to try a singleton Underworld Cerberus if I can't borrow or easily get a Xenagos, God of Revels - I've only managed to get 1 Courser of Kruphix so far; I can play Dreg Mangler a little longer!
I played in a SCG IQ today. I was able to get a 2nd Courser of Kruphix from a friend on site, and my playset of Temple of Malice literally arrived in the mail just before I left (lucky me!). I decided not to worry about finding a Xenagos, God of Revels to borrow and just jam the singleton Underworld Cerberus as the dog actually does something if you have to play it onto an empty board. I did play the fourth Temple of Malice over the fifth Forest as well. I was somehow able to pull it off again; started 4-0 and was able to double intentional draw into top 8 - managed to end up the two-seed, but we weren't using modified play/draw rule so seeding didn't matter except to set the bracket.
Round 1 - Won 2-0 over TurboFog Maze's End - highlight was attacking for lethal multiple times just to get damage prevented - finally lost 9ish creatures to Supreme Verdict with the plan to make Domri Rade and Garruk, Caller of Beasts (Garruk was at 8 even) emblems, playing a Stormbreath Dragon, and tutoring up the Underworld Cerberus just for glitzy insurance that I'd reload yet again if need be
Round 2 - Won 2-1 over MonoU Devotion - getting this win early felt really good. Games 1 his deck did what it was supposed; games 2 and 3 I sided in all the extra removal and kept his devotion in check. Turn 2 Skylasher in game 3 almost made me wish I had room for another.
Round 3 - Won 2-1 over Gruul Monsters - he gets a better start game 1 but I stabilize and turn the corner against his smaller creatures - game 2 I keep a hand with no green mana but a Temple of Malice, Blood Crypt, and a Mizzium Mortars and lots of other awesome stuff to do once I draw a land that produces G - with 16 such lands in the deck, I decide it should be all right - bad decision: don't get tempted to keep the 'playable' no green hands - I didn't make any notes about game 3 but it looks like I put all the pressure on him
Round 4 - Won 2-0 over Bant Walkers-Control - I steal game 1 and use a Golgari Charm to counter Fated Retribution for the win in game 2. First time I've played him but know him from other tournaments. He was a little unhappy that he feel like he gave away game 1 and was beaten by card he "didn't know to play around" - the good part about playing a modified form of cookie-cutter list is sometimes you steal a win on the back of an opponent not knowing the exact contents of your 75
Round 5 - Table 1 with two rounds left - time for ID against a non-cookie cutter Gruul Monsters deck that included a couple Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and two of each Gruul god; he said that he was siding out Purphoros, God of the Forge practically every match
Round 6 - still at table 1 so ID against cookie cutter Gruul Monsters deck and hope I still somehow have a high seed (most of thought it would matter until judge started top 8 and said we would be rolling dice to see who goes first still yet)
Quarterfinals - Bant opponent from Round 4 - win 2-1 - game 1 goes to plan - game 2 he comes back and wins at 5 life; there were a couple small Sphinx's Revelations in there - I win game 3 despite a mulligan to 5 on a Golgari Charm in response to a Supreme Verdict of course ... in a this game involves both luck and skill note, the game I lost was actually my best opening hand
Semifinals - MonoB Devotion/Control - I steal a long grind game 1 when he doesn't really draw any of black's long grindy game cards but plenty of swamps - I can't beat double Desecration Demon in game 2 - game 3 a topdecked Mizzium Mortars clears his growing Pack Rat army and a topdecked Ghor-Clan Rampager to bloodrush on something? wins it on the following turn ... so I was pretty lucky to get there
Finals - ID opponent from last round of Swiss - game 1 I mulligan and he rolls me - game 2 I mulligan again but still put up a little more fight ...I think I stand a chance of winning, but a 6/6 Scavenging Ooze on his side of the table gets beefed by both a Xenagos, God of Revels trigger and a Ghor-Clan Rampager bloodrush to make my efforts to block seem pretty feeble - I won against this guy in top 8 a few weeks back when he was splashing white; he got his revenge today ... to add insult to injury, I ended up trading for the Xenagod that killed me because it was borrowed from someone who owes me; in fact, most of the deck was the same physical copies of cards that put me out of the other top 8
I saw a lot of other people piloting Gruul today; I think we're looking at a top-4 deck format now (Monoblack, Monoblue, UW/x control, Gruul Monsters) - I'm going to put some thought into how to win the mirror. The black is still helping against the top tier decks from pre-BNG Standard but I don't want to keep losing the mirror in the top 8 - needs the third Dreadbore back in the 75 maybe? Or perhaps Temple of Malice lets us upgrade to instant speed and run 2 Hero's Downfall which is better against Gruul Monsters (assuming you can cast it). Gruul might also push Witchstalker out if it cuts the percentage of blue and/or black decks down - this would let me get Dreg Mangler back in there at least. Courser of Kruphix was good, but I'm not sure I really want a third. My son will be happy to finally get to crack some BNG packs at least ...
EDIT: (3-5-14) the decklists from the top 8 of this event are finally up on SCG
The point of splashing B in Gruul Monsters is primarily to allow for a few specific possible upgrades - most of which appear in the sideboard. Consider the following typical list:
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Boon Satyr
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Mutavault
8 Forest
5 Mountain
4 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Shock
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Plummet
2 Destructive Revelry
If we're only interested in improving a few cards without really changing this list much, here's where I would begin after trying quite a few variations:
OUT: 3 Boon Satyr IN: 3 Dreg Mangler
Dreg Mangler has haste which is still faster than end-step flash Boon Satyr and can survive blocking a 2/x if you are forced to play defensively. Dreg Mangler has the flexibility of being played as a three-drop and then potentially scavenged as a five-drop which is comparable or perhaps even better than playing a Boon Satyr as a three-drop or five-drop (but not both!). Dreg Mangler plays better against black removal as it cannot be targeted by Doom Blade or Ultimate Price and can be scavenged later if you sacrifice it to Devour Flesh or Desecration Demon.
OUT: 2 Destructive Revelry IN: 2 Golgari Charm
Destructive Revelry is primarily for opposing Detention Sphere. Golgari Charm can not only take care of D-sphere but also wrath away Elspeth, Sun's Champion tokens or regenerate the team in response to Supreme Verdict. The card is almost strictly better against UWx control.
OUT: 2 Plummet IN: 2 Dreadbore
While harder to cast and lacking instant speed, Dreadbore can kill most creatures instead of just flyers and can also hit planeswalkers. It is rarely a dead draw and decent against almost any common deck in the metagame. I personally run Dreadbore in the main instead of Mizzium Mortars for these reasons.
OUT: 2 Shock IN: 2 Abrupt Decay
Whitle harder to cast, Abrupt Decay eliminates almost any commonly played creature you would Shock but also creatures that can be hard to efficiently deal with in combat like Advent of the Wurm tokens, Boros Reckoner, or Loxodon Smiter. Abrupt Decay can also get rid of annoying non-creature permanents such as opposing Domri Rade, D-sphere, or Underworld Connections.
OUT: 3 Forest, 3 Mountain, 2 Mutavault IN: 4 Overgrown Tomb, 4 Blood Crypt
The deck wouldn't be Jund without Tomb and Crypt; however, some people would understandably hesitate at giving up Mutavault. I feel like Mutavault is too greedy in most three-color manabases. The deck can have some trouble finding mana as it is without including lands that tap for colorless. I think 2 Mutavault is truly the opportunity cost of switching from Gruul Monsters to Jund Monsters, but I personally feel like the net gain from the other switches more than makes up for it.
To recap, these exchanges some consistency in the manabase for much greater flexibility in a handful of the card slots and represent the bare minimum of moving from Gruul Monsters to Jund Monsters. Other cards worth considering:
Vraska, the Unseen - I've been trying this card as a singleton in the sideboard; however, I'm not sure we really need her as she's often for other planeswalker heavy decks (and we're decent at attacking planeswalkers). I've also brought her in as extra removal against aggro, and she is just too slow even when you're not having to wait until turn five to cast her.
Varolz, the Scar-Striped & Reaper of the Wilds - as I mentioned, I've tried these and I feel like they push the deck too far into midrange. Both are really good in long grindy games, but you don't want to intentonally play that game. I often describe the decks I tend to favor as the 'fastest midrange deck in the room,' but I sometimes have trouble maintaining that focus and dabble in cards like these.
Thoughtseize - I've run this as a two-of in the main and sideboard. The life-loss is problematic against more aggressive decks especially when coupled with the number of shocklands in the deck, so I quickly moved it to sideboard only. It can be pretty disruptive against a control-opponent who should already be scrambling to stabilize and weakness to Thoughtseize is often cited as the reason to play Monsters over Gruul-based devotion decks (so I generally bring them in there and against Boros Devotion).
Doom Blade, Ultimate Price, & Hero's Downfall - I would forgive anyone for giving in to the allure of black-based instant speed removal. However, I prefer Dreadbore's flexibility without the difficult BB mana requirement of Hero's Downfall.
Other cards I want to discuss in this shell ...
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed - I love this card, but we bring in spells against U-based control. Is he good enough against B-based control to deserve a slot? To this point, my answer has always been 'no.'
Scavenging Ooze - the incidental life-gain is appreciated here a lot more than in the straight Gruul build. Does this card deserve three slots? Some people have cut copies or even removed the card completely from their Gruul decks.
Kalonian Tusker & Witchstalker - I've been trying these cards for a while and am starting to see more results that include these instead of either ScOoze or Boon Satyr. Tusker is a turn two play that can slow down weenie aggro decks or provide early pressure against the rest of the field but is inferior to any of the other GG options (Scavenging Ooze, Witchstalker, Boon Satyr, Polukranos) beyond the early game. Witchstalker's text box makes him pretty good in the current metagame. Witchstalker is actually my preferred target for things like Ghor-Clan Rampager, scavenged Dreg Mangler, and Blood as he cannot be easily removed in response.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts - Brian Kibler suggests in a SCG premium article that he would replace Garruk for Chandra, Pyromaster largely to shore up the monoblack match-up. Is another RR card feasible in this manabase?
Flesh//Blood - Kibler also says to give up the occasional surprise Blood win for more consistent creature-kill. Chris VanMeter argues it's an important part of winning against monoblue. I've won a few games out of nowhere with Blood, but I've also had a copy sit around in my hand as well. Is playing a singleton copy the correct compromise between these very different professional opinions?
Domri Rade - there are several match-ups where we would sideboard a copy or two of Domri out due to all the spells coming in. He's also no longer practically an autowin against control on turn 2. Can we get a way with shaving a copy?
With those discussions and leading questions out of the way, I present my current build of Jund Monsters - hopefully, this will prove useful to someone other than just myself (typing these up does help me clarify my own thoughts!). I made a disappointing showing at a PTQ with an inferior version of the deck a couple of weeks ago, but the event was won by green-heavy Gruul devotion splashing black for a lot of similar reasons. This kept me working on the deck to bring it to this point of focusng on what Gruul Monsters is trying to accomplish but with some intended improvements in card selection. I hope to take one more shot at a PTQ this weekend before I start trying to incorporate cards like Temple of Malice, Fanatic of Xenagos, and Xenagos, God of Revels ...
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Kalonian Tusker
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Dreg Mangler
3 Witchstalker
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, the Pyromaster
1 Flesh//Blood
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Skylasher
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 ?
A few other closing remarks:
Part of me wants to cut the Sylvan Caryatid down to only two copies for either a third Tusker or Ooze or something else that would be better in the mid-to-late game. However, the deck is three colors and running a lot of four and five drops - I think I will end up playing this one safe.
I only have three Stormbreath Dragon, but I'm not sure I could run a full playset and Chandra anyway - I have as many red sources as a Gruul version, but it doesn't always feel like it in game.
The pair of Skylasher in the sideboard is entirely due to the fact that monoblue is still beating me too often on the back of a bunch of small flyers.
The ? in the sideboard has been a Bow of Nylea for its versatility; however, I think I'd rather have another copy of something else from the side or main or the singleton Vraska, the Unseen in this slot. I've also been wanting to try a singleton Gaze of Granite to wreck weenie and devotion strategies (generally cast for x=2).
Some of these choices were so clear when Falkenrath Aristocrat, Thundermaw Hellkite, and Bonfire of the Damned were in print ...
EDIT: With Cedric Phillips posting an article/list after trying something similar at a PTQ the weekend of 2-15-14, I want to make it explicity clear that he was my inspiration and motivation for brewing this deck. I've repeatedly referenced Cedric's work in my usual Stomping Grounds (pun!): Gruul Aggressive Midrange primer from last season, ryansolid's Domri Jund thread from this season, and ryansolid's Gyre Sage Jund thread from last season. However, I'm expecting increased interest in the deck in the near future and had not given him his due when I started this thread. ... I didn't start this thread as a primer, so I didn't appropriately credit Cedric Phillips or several other SCG writers such as Todd Anderson, Brian-Braun Duin, Brad Nelson, and especially Chris VanMeter for producing content about the Gruul decks that would be my starting point (for example, I included a history section in my Gruul primer). Cedric Phillips unleashed 'Unfriendly Skies' upon the world a few months into my most recent return to this game and his work has informed every deck I've taken to any non-FNM event since I started playing competitively again about a year ago. end disclaimer/gush
thanks - you are correct; I know I run 5 Forest yet had been typing '4' for the other lands up to that point, I guess?
in other news, one of my MtG friends whose opinion I respect (has won IQs and t8'd an SCG Open) says drop the Kalonian Tusker completely to get the third Scavenging Ooze and something else (Witchstalker or Dreg Mangler ???) back in there - used my own argument that it's really good but only on turn 2 to persuade me that they're not necessary - doesn't help that there are a few occasions when you would have the Tusker but not GG on turn 2 either - glad to see it popping up in the devotion lists some though
Round 1 mono black 2-0
I didn't take notes, game 1 I saw no pack rats. Game 2, I managed to use Domri's fight. Both games I drew multiple walkers.
Round 2 orzov control. 0-2 pack rats just tore me apart. Game 2 I abrupt decayed the first rat, but he had another one in hand and I couldn't get an answer in time.
Round 3 Dimir build with rats and other goodies. 2-1.
First 2 games were pretty good, I know game 1 he took with nightveil spectors. Game 3 he got mana screwed and I was able to take it.
Round 4 Naya 2-1.
Game 1, she managed to load up the board and won. I tried to drag it out but couldn't come up with a good answer before being overwhelmed. Game 2 overloaded mortars cleared the board, then I managed to gain some life with an scavenging ooze (I was at 1) and come back from there. Game 3 I landed a dragon and she had no answer.
I won't get a chance to play this again at the local store until bng comes in. The tuskers were okay, but I don't think I ever had a turn 2 tusker. I'm also thinking of changing up the planeswalkers in there.
Possible changes
-2 tuskers
+1 witchstalker
+1 dreg mangler
-3 xenagos
-1 Chandra
+1 Domri
+2 Garruk
-2 dreadbore
+2 hero's downfall (I almost always had double black up and only cast 1 dreadbore all night)
or
+2 ultimate price
My personal thoughts are that I don't think domri and xenagos work great together in the same deck. It might just be because of the black dominated meta and if it was more control heavy they'd be better but right now, if you can't answer pack rat then you're screwed. If you can get them off pack rat then you're much better off. If you want to run lots of creatures, go domri + garruk. If you want the more control version run xenagos + Chandra.
The morning of I borrowed a Garruk, Caller of Beasts for the main and decided to keep the singleton Vraska the Unseen in the sideboard to give me access to five different planeswalkers in the 75. I also cut the third Mistcutter Hydra (reminder: I was also trying two Skylasher) for the third Abrupt Decay; my idea being that Abrupt Decay is as good or better against mono-blue devotion as Mistcutter but offers more flexibility against other devotion and weenie aggro decks at the cost of possibly hurting my UWx control match-up that I now feel is actually one of my better match-ups. I had also already cut the 2 Kalonian Tusker for the third Scavenging Ooze and fourth Witchstalker and reluctantly trimmed the lone Flesh//Blood for to make room for a fourth unique planeswalker in the maindeck (originally Vraska but Garruk is just so much in line with the maindeck strategy) since my original post. I almost thought about playing one or two Flesh//Blood in the sideboard to have access to it in the match-ups where I really like it but hoped to trade explosiveness for consistency in the end.
Thus, I registered the following 75:
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Witchstalker
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
5 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Skylasher
1 Vraska the Unseen
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Thoughtseize
Round-by-Round Summary:
I start the tournament 4-0 only losing one game on a so-so keep putting me at the top table and double-draw into top 8 ... the details are hidden since the format is about to change and some readers may not really want a couple sentences on each round
Round 2: W 2-0 against Esper Control - I lived the dream and had all four maindeck planeswalkers going in game 2. I ended the turn before I won by discarding 2 Elvish Mystic and 2 Mizzium Mortars as I had played something off Chandra's +0, drawn a creature off Domri's +1, and drawn four creatures off Garruk's +1.
I feel like I have a pretty good Esper match-up as long as their draw isn't perfect and I can apply consistent pressure without over-extending into Supreme Verdict as I can save Witchstalker or Stormbreath for the follow-up and both dodge Detention Sphere. This is pretty much exactly what happened in both these matches. I believe I did mulligan one opening hand to 6 (would have to check my notes to be sure) in these four games.
Round 3: W 2-1 against Boros Devotion. Nerves were starting to kick in as I was already at the top tables since I hadn't lost a game yet. I won game 1 thinking I was playing against Big Boros Midrange; however, it was fair as he didn't see any black out of my deck in game 1 either. Opponent commented something like 'didn't expect Witchstalker to blank all my removal.' We went into game 2 both operating off of incomplete information ... Game 2, I thought about taking a mulligan on the draw, but I had Thoughtseize into Abrupt Decay to stall hopefully long enough to draw into a third land. I went for it and didn't play anything. Between the Thoughtseize and dying, I saw a lot more of his deck than he did mine ... I re-sideboarded taking out a few aggro cards for even more removal. Game 3, I stuck a threat and kept blowing up stuff of his for the win.
Round 4: W 2-0 against Esper Control. This opponent seemed to be a fairly good control player but he had mulligans compared to my snap keeps. He actually did the turn 1 Thoughtseize ... pause ... nervous laugh ... 'I don't think I can win, but I'm taking the ____' He ended up 9th I believe ... Around this time, it was starting to feel pretty real, and there were a couple people giving me kudos and asking questions about the list.
Round 5: My probable opponent is an acquaintance and approached me after games during round 4. I wasn't sure what he was playing, but he said "I'm afraid of your deck; if we're at table 1, do you want to intentional draw? We'll both be able to double-draw and still make top 8" I told him that I would think about it, but I was also fairly interested in being guaranteed to be on the play too. I consulted some other friends/acquaintances who have more experience with such things and kept hearing the same thing - just draw in to guarantee t8 without worrying about seeding. Sure enough, we're at table one and the only other undefeated player was a UW control player who had just won a mirror match via decking without ever going to sideboarded games (talk about miserable). I agree to the draw.
Round 6: I'm still at table 1 for the final round despite the draw and my pairing is against another acquaintance that I know even better. We talked when I first arrived and we both know what each is playing (he's on Orzhov Weenie Aggro with lots of Humans + Xathrid Necromancer) Based on posted standings, the entire top 4 tables can mutually agree to just start the top 8 if everyone agrees to draw. I would somehow still be the #1 seed, so I don't even begin to question it this time. I start sorting my deck as I try to remember and/or figure out what everyone else is playing ...
Jund Monsters, Naya Monsters, Gruul Monsters, two monoblack control, Orzhov Humans (ID from round 6), Boros Devotion (ID from round 5), and the Azorious Control deck I mentioned ... I felt pretty good except for the near mirrors. I feel like I'm better on paper than straight Gruul Monsters as long as I don't stumble on mana as it curves out (foreshadowing ...).
Top 8, Quarterfinals: I win 2-0 against Naya Monsters; both games I play a threat and just remove their blockers and walkers via Ghor-Clan Rampager in game 1 and removal game 2. Splashing for Dreadbore and Vraska was better than Chained to the Rocks at least this one time (I only remember him playing one - I had Witchstalker, Stormbreath, and an Elvish Mystic out, so it didn't matter much at that point). Game 2 is more of the same and included a Vraska -3 to kill something and then trading with a opposing Stormbreath a few turns later thanks to the +1. I had the draws to keep them on the backfoot the entire time.
Top 8, Semifinals: Anti-climatic ... I lose 0-2 against Gruul Monsters. This pilot had taken the stock Gruul Monsters list (BBD - see 1st post) to the finals at the PTQ the day before and is potentially one of the best two or three players in that area. I keep two weak but not terrible openers (no Elvish Mystic in either); I felt like a random six was too greedy in both cases as I had lands and spells just no acceleration. His draws are better and he's a good player - sealed the match with a blow-out monstrous Polukranos to 7/7 and kill my ScavOoze, attack my Chandra to force me to either let her die or chump with my 5/5 Polukranos, and then Blood my Polukranos post-combat when I decline to block. I got flustered a little game 1, and I think the following was a misplay in game 2 ...
I have the option to either play Chandra or Polukranos at four - I drop Chandra and kill his elf and tick his Domri down and attack with a Witchstalker. I now realize I should've played my own Polukranos, let him play his own Polukranos, monstrous mine first and attack - putting him in the situation similar to he put me in. I didn't know he had the Blood at the time, so I think he still would've had it in the end. Now, my play would've been really good if he had gotten stuck on three-mana and not been able to cast his Polukranos. I guess I focused more on that than what happens if he does still get his World Eater on board first.
So I lose to Gruul Monsters in the semifinals, and he goes on to beat the Azorious control deck in finals - my only match loss also sent me home instead of letting me take one a match-up I generally feel pretty good about for some fairly serious $$$.
Post-tournament Analysis:
I still really like the list overall but would consider a few minor tweaks before playing it again if Born of the Gods wasn't about to release.
1.) I clearly didn't need a third Scavenging Ooze since I never played against a weenie aggro deck and generally never had my life total pressured by much other than my own shocklands in my wins and couldn't gain enough to matter in my losses. I would've loved for this or the third Abrupt Decay in the sideboard to be a third Dreadbore. I had been running a third Dreadbore in one iteration of the deck and definitely missed it against the near mirrors. It would also be fine against monoblack, devotion, and weenie aggro compared to ScOoze and Abrupt.
2.) In a related note, Lordpiglet is potentially right; Ultimate Price hits almost the creatures we probably want to kill on sight, sacrificing a few corner cases (such as hard-cast Ghor-Clan Rampager, Loxodon Smiter, Reaper of the Wilds) and the ability to hit planeswalkers for instant speed and being slightly easier to cast. We can pressure planeswalkers pretty well with all big dudes, haste, and ability to bloodrush GCR; however, Dreadbore lets you focus on the opponent's life total. Of course, Hero's Downfall would be awesome, but I'm just not sure if we can afford the BB casting cost. I didn't try it for very long before abandoning two of these for Dreadbore. Perhaps I could test cutting the fifth Forest for a Swamp, but the deck is awfully green-heavy. I did not care for the Mountains being Rakdos Guildgate in testing either to better support the black splash - more on this in a bit ...
3.) The Gruul Monsters pilot said he prefers a more consistent manabase but understands why I'm splashing for black except he doesn't care for Dreg Mangler. I found it and Witchstalker to surprise people with their effectiveness at getting people dead and being somewhat resilient threats - however, I won't guarantee that I have the numbers correct here but rather that I don't miss Boon Satyr at all.
4.) If I squeeze a third Dreadbore in the main, then I would probably add a third Thoughtseize to the sideboard. You don't want them in a lot of match-ups, but you don't see them very often as a two-of either. I also almost ran a singleton Flesh//Blood if the third Dreadbore doesn't work out ...
5.) This deck feels downright unfair due to the multiple planeswalkers - I'm not sure if green/red have ever had anything resembling this sort of raw power and potential card advantage. Most of you may not remember cards like Sylvan Library ... but the current planeswalkers offer the same sort of advantage (card selection, options, possibly drawing multiple cards per turn) and maintain aggressive focus. I would consider a second Garruk in the sideboard, but running singleton copies of Chandra and Garruk worked out well for me that day.
No regrets but here's my updated 75 for pre-BNG ...
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Witchstalker
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
5 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Skylasher
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Thoughtseize
Post-BNG Changes:
I can see people trying to jam Xenagos, God of Revels into Gruul Monsters. I think it would be a one- or two-of in my deck and would probably have to replace a planeswalker instead of a top-end creature, and I'm not sure if I'm okay with that yet. If I luck into one, I'll try it early - but not in a rush to possibly overpay for them yet.
On the other hand, Fanatic of Xenagos makes a case for replacing Witchstalker or Dreg Mangler. Replacing Witchstalker gives you more haste but hexproof seems pretty good right now with a lot decks relying on one-for-one removal - it remains my favorite creature to pump by bloodrush. Replacing Dreg Mangler lightens the demand for black mana but makes Doom Blade better against you and gives up scavenge which has pretty good at times. I like the card, but I'm not sure I love it yet.
Unravel the AEther - I like this better than Destructive Revelry as it can get a Thassa, God of the Sea off the table. However, I don't think I like better than Golgari Charm.
I also think I prefer Skylasher to Skyreaping as a way to keep monoblue's flyers under control.
Temple of Malice will probably be the first new card in - I already said I didn't like Rakdos Guildgate, but I can excuse potentially getting two or three of these in there (who knew scry 1 would be so exciting!). Maybe three of these replace one Temple of Abandon and two Mountains, or perhaps you only want 5 Temples and 1 Mountain instead.
If there is another card I should be considering, I can't think of it right now ...
LordPiglet - no else has said a word, so consider this update my gift to you for believing in it enough to give it try!
I'd agree that Satyr seems disappointing anywhere I try to jam him. The bestow, while nice with Flash seems to be overcosted/underwhelming. When you've got the mana to drop him where you want him, you're either too far ahead or behind for it to really matter.
I would also look at Mogus as a possibility over Xenagos.
p/s : I don't think we're allowed to talk about BNG cards just yet.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
see this post to see my not very successful experience with a more midrange variant featuring Reaper (though I do like the card)
in theory, bloodrush Ghor-Clan Rampager onto Reaper of the Wilds with mana also up for activating Reaper seems good - however, it just wasn't fast enough in that deck at least
What about Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch and Underworld Cerberus ? I might be using Exava but I like the hound. Too bad it can't fit in.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Probably a bit meta dependent. I ended up moving off of my Reaper/straight Junk build, no due to a lack of consistency, but more due to the speed dichotomy of midrange around me. It was too slow for aggro and not fast enough for control.
By moving further towards Exava and Cerberus or anything along those lines, we're also moving further from a splash into a hard split and less consistency. The scry land might help that, but until I'm playing with it, I'm not sure.
Thing is I am struggling to not have at least one Nykthos in there some where. I feel as long as we are still using Polukranos, World Eater a one of Nykthos just helps in those odd times we want to really blow up Polukranos. On that front not having a Blood in the 75 is really a struggle for me as well. It's ability to some times just win games is amazing.
Thing is I can't seem to find a way to get either card back in or for that matter if I really should be trying to.
I built it hoping to have better match-ups against UW/x control, monoblack, monoblue, and Big Boros than Gruul monsters without any splash. I think my results at the tourney are largely a result of running into Esper multiple games in a row; I used to hate playing against UW/x control before the black splash now it might be the match-up of the top tier decks. I considered a singleton Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx when I was running even more permanents with GG in the casting cost. Without ever testing it, I decided that it was a bit of a 'win-more' in this deck. Most of the time it's going to help filter mana at best not really provide a burst of mana. I actually have been thinking about trying a singleton Unknown Shores instead of the fifth Forest for efficiently filtering mana. Remember I think the opportunity cost of playing this deck is giving up the option of playing lands that tap for colorless (i.e. Mutavault) in exchange for the options black mana provides.
Recall that I had been originally looking at 2 Dreadbore and 1 Flesh//Blood as the non-creature, non-planeswalkers in the deck in the original post. If your metagame does not have a lot of mono-red or other weenie aggro decks (not monoblue devotion - that's more of a tempo or aggro-control deck), then cutting from three Scavenging Ooze to two copies would let you get a singleton Flesh//Blood back in there instead of a third Dreadbore. I contemplated this myself, but I think the 3rd Dreadbore might be better in near-mirrors like Gruul Monsters or Big Boros.
Ok this makes perfect sense, I was not looking at it the right way. But you have made some very good points and I am going to stick with the mana base the deck has now. It has been working just fine, I am trying to do some more testing tonight vs ESPER humans and Mono black wish it was going to be more but thats all the decks I can round up tonight for testing.
My meta is all over the place, the better players seem to be playing UW/x builds or mono black. As someone who has just come from playing mono black since the start of Theros block I feel good about that match up. I know the deck better then anyone in my area who is now trying to play it. I think I might try the singleton blood in deck tonight just to see how it does. So far in my testing the dreadbores have been great but I really do like the sudden ending factor that blood can bring.
I will make sure to take notes Friday on how this does. I am really looking at making this my goto deck for the BNG time period. There are so many people at my LGS that are jumping on the mono black wagon now and I would love to be that guy that just beats it all the time and I see this being the right deck for my meta.
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Witchstalker
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Skylasher
2 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Thoughtseize
I did pull the 5th Forest for a Swamp - I considered running a singleton Unknown Shores and wish I'd tried it for giggles. I did have one opening hand with the Swamp that I wished it was a Forest, but the deck will have gain additional scry-temples soon. I also considered running a Flesh//Blood over the third Dreadbore again; Blood can win a game out of nowhere, but I just feel like Dreadbore is better at getting you back in a game if you're behind.
I went 3-1 which was good enough for 3rd place - not nearly as exciting/impressive as last weekend t8 in the cash event
L 0-2 against monoblue: remains the toughest match-up among tier-1 decks in my opinion - long grindy game 1 Rapid Hybridization kept Polukranos from helping me stabilize twice - game 2 I mulligan four land and three cards that are 4/5 drops as I just don't feel it stands a chance against an aggressive start and keep a slightly better 6 but do not draw enough of the removal I brought in from the sideboard
W 2-0 over Azorious control - I won these games fair and square but they were against my son - he almost forced a game 3 on the back of six 1/1 soldier tokens (I killed the Elspeth, Sun's Champion with a Dreadbore), but I forced him to Supreme Verdict with me at 5 life to reset the board and won the topdeck race.
W 2-0 over Izzet Blitz deck with things Young Pyromancer, Spellheart Chimera, Akroan Crusader, and spells - was a bit of a home brew. Game 1 I was quickly at 10 life before stabilizing. Game 2 I wasn't really pressured as quickly and took control more easily.
a couple of you said you were going to play something similar at 'last chance' FNM tonight - hope you did well but let me know either way
Local game store ran a free Thursday night tournament with BNG available at midnight. After it, while waiting for the clock to strike, I did some play testing running a red/white boros burn against a frieds r/g deck. Xenagos is nuts, fanatacs are okay, but xenagos is nuts. Especially in the mirror.
Think the mix I'll try is to cut the Garruk and Chandra for 2 xenagos. Replace 1 world eater with 1 kalonian hydra.
Any reason to avoid it? Is it not worth it to run a sorcery that thins your deck when you're running 3-4x Domri?
RG Urza Tron (Modern)
BGR Punishing Jund (Legacy)
I don't think you meant to say something about "thins your deck" ...
I've ran Rakdos's Return as a SB card in Jund Aggressive Midrange at some point in the last year. I haven't tested with it in this version. I haven't considered it too much as I feel like it's redundant with some of the other cards like Thoughtseize as discard or Dreadbore for planeswalkers or Mistcutter Hydra as a pseudo-Fireball (or Flesh//Blood if you choose to run that). Primarily, Rakdos's Return is a card that is really good in a long, grindy match-up where it might win you the game off the top of the deck - it pushes the deck even farther into midrange. I often say the goal of the decks I play is to be the most aggressive midrange deck in the room; a little bigger than weenie aggro but a turn or so faster than dedicated midrange decks. By all means try it, let me know how it does for you - what would you cut from my sideboard? Vraska the Unseen? The X-spell I've really wanted to try and haven't is Gaze of Granite; I think it would help shore up worse match-ups like weenie aggro or U devotion assuming you live long enough to peel it off the top and fire it off for x = 2. I'm currently debating trying to fit in 1-2 Underworld Cerberus as a five-drop with impact since I haven't valued Xenagos, God of Revels as priority yet, but this decision might also push the deck even further into midrange than I want to go. I also plan to swap Mountains for Temple of Malice and could jam Courser of Kruphix over Dreg Mangler if I decide to try it a little more midrange. The other change required by Born of the Gods is probably moving 2 Mizzium Mortars into the main to combat Brimaz, King of Oreskos pushing white weenie and putting the rest of the playset in the sideboard. I'll run 2 Dreadbore and 2 Mizzium Mortars main the next time I play this more than likely.
Welcome by the way!
I'd like to know about your opinion on Illness in the ranks in Jund. It would help a great deal against Master of Waves, Pack rat, and most of all, Brimaz with his 1/1 cat tokens, and even a removal for a 1/1 voice token. (Though the probability of that is low.)
don't forget 1/1 soldier tokens from Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Assemble the Legion
Have considered it but haven't tried it - I prefer Golgari Charm since it can also be used to destroy Detention Sphere or 'counter' Supreme Verdict
http://themeadery.org/blogs/13/325/monsters-jund-and-domri-rade
3 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Kalonian Hydra
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
PLANESWALKERS
4 Domri Rade
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dreadbore
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ultimate Price
LANDS
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Malice
3 Blood Crypt
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Forest
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Dreadbore
3 Thoughtseize
4 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Unravel the Aether
If I run Jund tonight, here is my list.
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Slyvan Caryatid
3 Witchstalker
3 Dreg Mangler
3 Fanatic of Xenagos
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Kalonian Hydra
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Xenagos, God of Revels
3 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
Spells
3 Dreadbore
Lands
5 Forest
2 mountain
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
1 Flesh//Blood
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Skylasher
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Mizzium Mortars
I didn't pull any Temple of Malice, so I haven't tested them. Also, Courser looked crazy on the latest SCG, but I want to test with Fanatic first. Courser probably works better in the list from The Meadery.
This guy will end control matches by making them topdeck for answers, and your topdecks WILL be better than theirs.
With the new engine, you could be getting as many as three cards per turn while they find nothing.
Definitely needs to be a 2 of in Domri Jund.
thanks for the link - interesting read ... Courser of Kruphix is better if you're leaning midrange and just trying to surivive until you can start dropping 4+ drops that each threaten to take over a game if unchecked. I pre-ordered Fanatic of Xenagos, but Dreg Mangler might honestly still be better in that slot if you're leaning towards aggressive midrange. Fanatic of Xenagos might end up being best in a Gruul Deck Wins where it and Ghor-Clan Rampager are the top of the curve as the opponent will hopefully be in trouble either way. I was going to try to play in the Louisville TCG $1k event tomorrow, but it's been cancelled. If I play somewhere else, I'll let you all know how it goes ... I guess I'll be playing this?
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Witchstalker
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Temple of Malice
5 Forest
2 Skylasher
2 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Thoughtseize
some card choices aren't actually quite where I want them yet - Temple of Malice are in transit and would be 2 Mountain, 1 Swamp right now if I have to live without - I'm going to try a singleton Underworld Cerberus if I can't borrow or easily get a Xenagos, God of Revels - I've only managed to get 1 Courser of Kruphix so far; I can play Dreg Mangler a little longer!
Sideboard hasn't changed much - Thoughtseize actually might be the only thing I would try as something else. I hate running Skylasher but the match up against monoblue devotion and its flyers still just feels so bad. Rakdos's Return and Sire of Insanity are good cards, but I already feel pretty good against UW/x control and monoblack control isn't too bad - do these do enough in problematic match-ups in someone else's opinion? they feel like more slots devoted to the Sphinx's Revelation decks that we do not need any more help in. Actually, I'd feel like these cards would have to replace Mistcutter Hydra in terms of role - maybe I should test one or the other in that slot ...
I played in a SCG IQ today. I was able to get a 2nd Courser of Kruphix from a friend on site, and my playset of Temple of Malice literally arrived in the mail just before I left (lucky me!). I decided not to worry about finding a Xenagos, God of Revels to borrow and just jam the singleton Underworld Cerberus as the dog actually does something if you have to play it onto an empty board. I did play the fourth Temple of Malice over the fifth Forest as well. I was somehow able to pull it off again; started 4-0 and was able to double intentional draw into top 8 - managed to end up the two-seed, but we weren't using modified play/draw rule so seeding didn't matter except to set the bracket.
Round 1 - Won 2-0 over TurboFog Maze's End - highlight was attacking for lethal multiple times just to get damage prevented - finally lost 9ish creatures to Supreme Verdict with the plan to make Domri Rade and Garruk, Caller of Beasts (Garruk was at 8 even) emblems, playing a Stormbreath Dragon, and tutoring up the Underworld Cerberus just for glitzy insurance that I'd reload yet again if need be
Round 2 - Won 2-1 over MonoU Devotion - getting this win early felt really good. Games 1 his deck did what it was supposed; games 2 and 3 I sided in all the extra removal and kept his devotion in check. Turn 2 Skylasher in game 3 almost made me wish I had room for another.
Round 3 - Won 2-1 over Gruul Monsters - he gets a better start game 1 but I stabilize and turn the corner against his smaller creatures - game 2 I keep a hand with no green mana but a Temple of Malice, Blood Crypt, and a Mizzium Mortars and lots of other awesome stuff to do once I draw a land that produces G - with 16 such lands in the deck, I decide it should be all right - bad decision: don't get tempted to keep the 'playable' no green hands - I didn't make any notes about game 3 but it looks like I put all the pressure on him
Round 4 - Won 2-0 over Bant Walkers-Control - I steal game 1 and use a Golgari Charm to counter Fated Retribution for the win in game 2. First time I've played him but know him from other tournaments. He was a little unhappy that he feel like he gave away game 1 and was beaten by card he "didn't know to play around" - the good part about playing a modified form of cookie-cutter list is sometimes you steal a win on the back of an opponent not knowing the exact contents of your 75
Round 5 - Table 1 with two rounds left - time for ID against a non-cookie cutter Gruul Monsters deck that included a couple Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and two of each Gruul god; he said that he was siding out Purphoros, God of the Forge practically every match
Round 6 - still at table 1 so ID against cookie cutter Gruul Monsters deck and hope I still somehow have a high seed (most of thought it would matter until judge started top 8 and said we would be rolling dice to see who goes first still yet)
Quarterfinals - Bant opponent from Round 4 - win 2-1 - game 1 goes to plan - game 2 he comes back and wins at 5 life; there were a couple small Sphinx's Revelations in there - I win game 3 despite a mulligan to 5 on a Golgari Charm in response to a Supreme Verdict of course ... in a this game involves both luck and skill note, the game I lost was actually my best opening hand
Semifinals - MonoB Devotion/Control - I steal a long grind game 1 when he doesn't really draw any of black's long grindy game cards but plenty of swamps - I can't beat double Desecration Demon in game 2 - game 3 a topdecked Mizzium Mortars clears his growing Pack Rat army and a topdecked Ghor-Clan Rampager to bloodrush on something? wins it on the following turn ... so I was pretty lucky to get there
Finals - ID opponent from last round of Swiss - game 1 I mulligan and he rolls me - game 2 I mulligan again but still put up a little more fight ...I think I stand a chance of winning, but a 6/6 Scavenging Ooze on his side of the table gets beefed by both a Xenagos, God of Revels trigger and a Ghor-Clan Rampager bloodrush to make my efforts to block seem pretty feeble - I won against this guy in top 8 a few weeks back when he was splashing white; he got his revenge today ... to add insult to injury, I ended up trading for the Xenagod that killed me because it was borrowed from someone who owes me; in fact, most of the deck was the same physical copies of cards that put me out of the other top 8
I saw a lot of other people piloting Gruul today; I think we're looking at a top-4 deck format now (Monoblack, Monoblue, UW/x control, Gruul Monsters) - I'm going to put some thought into how to win the mirror. The black is still helping against the top tier decks from pre-BNG Standard but I don't want to keep losing the mirror in the top 8 - needs the third Dreadbore back in the 75 maybe? Or perhaps Temple of Malice lets us upgrade to instant speed and run 2 Hero's Downfall which is better against Gruul Monsters (assuming you can cast it). Gruul might also push Witchstalker out if it cuts the percentage of blue and/or black decks down - this would let me get Dreg Mangler back in there at least. Courser of Kruphix was good, but I'm not sure I really want a third. My son will be happy to finally get to crack some BNG packs at least ...
EDIT: (3-5-14) the decklists from the top 8 of this event are finally up on SCG