So, didn't really see any buzz about this but, have a feeling this will be a strong force in the new meta. Probably what I will end up playing once Theros is legal in Standard.
I'm going to throw my list up, one I have been revising as more spoilers got added. Seems really efficient, and plays similar like RG "Kiblar". It really maintains threat density, and can transition into ramping into monstrosity via Xenagos, or just rely on Purpheros to turn late game "dead" draws into shocks. I feel confidant in this list for the upcoming States 2013, I will be playing this extensively and updating this as more testing for states occur.
This thread is about making the best version of RG Gruul Mid-range/Sledge-Hammer version as we can. Please, can't stress this enough, we are preparing for various tournaments and trying to make this deck a VIABLE choice. Match-ups and testing should be behind any and all discussion in this thread. If you have innovations, that's great! Though it should be backed with the proper testing.
For another Gruul strategy, Skyrian's RG RAMP Primer, which can be found here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=538269. Focusing more on a traditional ramp style list that has different variations. In the coming weeks who knows which version may end up being better, but I will be here and hoping other dedicated members strive to make it the best possible for upcoming State tournaments or what have you.
ver 3.0
-Using Caryatid and Zhur-taa
-High P/T creatures, all resiliant.
-Arbor Colossus to help bad matchups/big body
-removal of BTE
-Removal of Purphoros
-not MD'ing Mistcutter hydra
ver. 2.5
- Trying out Ember Swallower per feedback from community.
- Still going with the "safe" pick: Sylvan Carytid. Might change this due to area meta.
-Dropping Polis Crusher
-Cutting Xenagos down. Adding Mizzium Mortars.
-Still keeping a couple copies of Purphoros, feel it's still not worth dropping him.
-Cutting one Stormbreath dragon to try other threats.
Other Midrange versions: Player feedback//submissions
Cassial's "Gruul Earthshaker 1.0
Words from Cassial about his deckbuilding style:
I'm an extreme Timmy merged with a Spike. I tend to start my decks with slavish adherence to 4-of's (to put it in Kibler terms) - I work best with extremes first. With this approach, I'll immediately see that a 4-of should become a 3-of, and so on and so on. I prefer it this way as opposed to trying to make a "balanced" deck from the drawing board, I'll just never get it off the ground. You have to push the limits of a deck's greed to first understand what it can or cannot feasibly get away with in a format, and eventually you arrive at the point where you have exactly what you need.
Other aggressive versions: Player feedback//submissions
Mainly, this deck can have really explosive hands, that's a given.
This can also transition into the mid-game very well with Xenagos and Pupheros, giving the new R/G "Slegdehammer" aggro//Mid-range a new way to continue with added pressure and making our dead draws late game into 2 damage to the dome at the very least. Not to mention Pupheros + Xenagos is quite the great little engine. Monstrosity activation's also are a thing to look at under the scope because it gives us something to do with unwanted mana. Over time and testing can we determine whether or not the final version will be more "Mid-range aggro" or "Mid-range".
Cassial has taken his own time to write up a breakdown of card choices and evaluations, thanks Cassial! (ANYONE MAY ADD TO THIS TO GET A GENERAL CONSENSUS)
Specific card choices: *Edited for certain match-ups.* *Use this depending on what your specific meta is like*
Polis Crusher: I felt it would be advantageous to use the Crusher over say Ghor-Clan Rampager, with the format slowing down a tiny bit, I don't feel there's a reason to be blood-rushing, and losing my creature which I would of normally played and got an extra 2 damage anyway from Pupheros. Not to mention I have a strong feeling Chained to the Rocks and Detention Sphere will be at large in new standard, this guy not only dodges both, but with the help of our ramp via Druid//Satyr or Xenagos can take our permanents back using the Crusher's Monstrosity.
Stormbreath Dragon: This card is a shoe in, basically. There shouldn't be a good reason to not play this card, he's end of the curve and is a fantastic threat that bypasses most removal in post-Theros Standard. Not to mention his Monstrosity gives us some serious reach and game plan for Sphinx's Revelation and similar control strategies.
Boon Satyr: Great threat, can play as an instant, sticks around after a board wipe and you can't get 2-for-1'd when you try to bestow. He's all around flexible and has a great P/T ratio for his cost. It may be worth testing Reverant Hunter as well, he can easily be a 5/5 or 4/4 for 3 mana, but I have a feeling bestow and flash will put Boon Satyr over the edge.
Satyr Hedonist //Zhur-Taa Druid//Sylvan Carytid: I don't know which I will end up using, or a combination of the two.
Impressions from testing:
Scavenging Ooze: Seems like a good creature to have in general, grave-yard themed decks and cards may have rotated, but let's be serious creatures are going to be dying, mainly yours, or your opponents. His ability is still relevant, if anything he can be swapped with any efficient 2cc card.
Purphoros: This guy can really add the reach to an aggro deck. Clearly the best god I think hands down, he pumps late game, can turn those mana producer dead draws into actual threats. No problem playing this guy in multiples either, considering Domri can hit him with his +1, and not to mention you can Play a second purphoros and you will still get the activation from the first one before it's destroyed, it's really win-win here. Him becoming a creature and attacking as a 6/5 indestructible is just gravy.
-----------General PSA from regulars in this thread------------
Credit to Cassial
I don't want this to derail the thread, I wanted to try and come up with some other helpful measure to help us get the maximum value out of all of our cards. This "yardstick list" or something like it might be very helpful on the initial thread primer, and hopefully newcomers to the thread can agree with or be helped by some of this analysis. This is explicitly to help us cut down on posts asking about "how do you guys feel about this card" or "why do I not see your lists running this card" - generally newer posters to the thread make these, and although asking genuine questions should be encouraged, I feel there should be something in place to help folks get up to speed rather than us clogging the thread answering individual questions. I don't think this is a problem or anything, but we are approaching one of the more popular threads status, we should keep it as refined as we possibly can.
**Primer update, I will add the decklists I tested against. Though they may not be the optimal decklist for every archetype, but with rotation it's a little tough to get the exact numbers for these lists down. I will do my best to make sure the community gets the best feedback and input possible.**
Big Boros: No. of rounds 10 (this is without Sideboarding). No of rounds won so far: 7/10
-I can safely say this is a good but not great match-up. While Strombreath dragon is a clear all-star here he is susceptible to Mizzium Mortars.
-Boros Reckoner is a problem for this deck, but can be overcome. Trading with him is never in our favor, but luckily our creatures are big enough that it goads the player into blocking or suffer taking severe damage.
-Purphoros is a great card to have in this match-up as sometimes it will end up out-doing their own Purphoros simply because we play a higher density of creatures. We also ramp into our high end much faster than they do which is an advantage in this match-up. Xenagos + Purphoros is also brutal if they don't have the burn to take out Xenagos.
G/W Aggro: Currently not tested against.
Decklist I will be using: Taken from Novajoe's G/W Aggro/Midrange [Primer] thread.
No of rounds played 5. No of rounds won 3/5. Played with version 2.5, no SB
- Sylvan Caryatid proves insanely useful in this matchup, as I predicted.
- Polukranos usually was game over, one game ended up being lost to my play partner 2 for 1'ing it with burn. Ended up I never drew into more threats.
- Blazing fast great curved turns on RDW's end proved too much pressure sometimes. Firefist striker is good against us, Sylvan Caryatid can't win the match-up alone.
-If we're on the play chances of us winning are very high.
-Mistcutter Hydra was "meh" in this match-up.
-Pupheros was "meh" in this match-up.
-Domri fight + Polukranos fight is too much for them.
B/W Midrange: Modified list by my playgroup taken from the Established B/W [Primer] (thank you!)
Number of rounds played: 8 no. of rounds won 4/8 (without SB) played with version 2.5
- This matchup is really hard. It is winnable, but only slightly. Clearly from the initial rounds played pre-board it doesn't look good for us. Though call it up to variance and maybe it's not enough rounds to fully tell. Though I would still say it's downhill before boarding.
- Stormbreath Dragon was the only out here, in addition to having Mana dorks or Xenagos tokens offered up to tap down Desecration Demon. Though only in that situation, Demon really is a wall. So is Alms beast, it's really brutal to be always dealing with 4 mana 6/6's.
-Obzedat was only really used to keep the race in B/W's favor. Though sometimes coming through later on once the game is in their favor is usually lights out.
-I would say pre-board is all up to draws, and it will usually be in their favor. Cassial made a post about Desecration Demon being public enemy #1. He was not wrong in the slightest. Though I felt he was only more threatning in this match because of Alms beast would usually be in his place. B/G may be better because they dont have ANOTHER 4 mana 6/6 to fall back on.
-The one good thing i'll say about this match-up is they do end up dealing a nice chunk of damage to themselves before they find Whip, use that as aggressively as you can to try and close the game early. Though easier said than done.
This is one of the better GR aggro/midrange lists I've seen. Curious as to how good Polish is.
Also i've noticed no magma jet/lightning strike/mizzium mortars anywhere in your 60. What do you plan to do to creatures?
Thank you! I'm still working on the Primer as we speak, my original list has been modified since I posted it back in NCD section. Will also add a link to the old Thread, no one posted in it sadly but, still think it's a good point of reference.
In terms of removal, from testing the only creature that gives this archetype a hard time is Boros Reckoner. Having removal for him is, well, still bad. So, in that instance I just race. Just drop bigger creatures and work around him, even if that means getting a creature killed by it, which I feel is inevitable. Stormbreath Dragon has really been an all-star in that situation.
In terms of a RDW deck, preliminary testing gives that match-up about a 50/50 and who wins the dice roll. I will have to do more extensive testing. Sylvan Carytid is very good in that match up, blocking Rakdos Cackler and Ash Zealot, gives me time to ramp into Stormbreath Dragon or Ruric-Thar the Unbowed.
So, what's the mission for this specific version of Gruul you're making a primer for? Skyrian has a heavy ramp version, I'm assuming this will be the place for aggressive midrange?
I'm asking mainly in the interest of very near-future competitive brewing; we're all on a mission to find out what the best version is. I was fixing to start a primer myself today, but we've got 2 now :). Anyway, I could care less who does it, but, anyone who's interested in tackling tournaments (with Gruul) in the short term - we should obviously be consolidating the most focused versions we can.
IF the meta is right for "going rampy" - then it's right for going rampy. If it's better to be faster, then I believe that needs to be stressed in our primer. It's my hope and obviously invested interest, that we produce a thread (you or me here) that discusses matchups, more than "card selection" or "my version does this" posts. If that's what you're going for here Seton, then our aims align, and I'll be happily on board to grind out matchups and talk tech.
EDIT: basically to spell out what I'm saying, I would like a Primer that says straight from the beginning, we mean business here/no BS brews, and these ideas contained here are backed with matchups/REAL WORK or will be. Aka if you're going to states this year, let's do this right.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
So, what's the mission for this specific version of Gruul you're making a primer for? Skyrian has a heavy ramp version, I'm assuming this will be the place for aggressive midrange?
I'm asking mainly in the interest of very near-future competitive brewing; we're all on a mission to find out what the best version is. I was fixing to start a primer myself today, but we've got 2 now :). Anyway, I could care less who does it, but, anyone who's interested in tackling tournaments (with Gruul) in the short term - we should obviously be consolidating the most focused versions we can.
IF the meta is right for "going rampy" - then it's right for going rampy. If it's better to be faster, then I believe that needs to be stressed in our primer. It's my hope and obviously invested interest, that we produce a thread (you or me here) that discusses matchups, more than "card selection" or "my version does this" posts. If that's what you're going for here Seton, then our aims align, and I'll be happily on board to grind out matchups and talk tech.
EDIT: basically to spell out what I'm saying, I would like a Primer that says straight from the beginning, we mean business here/no BS brews, and these ideas contained here are backed with matchups/REAL WORK or will be. Aka if you're going to states this year, let's do this right.
Cassial, I'm happy to see you posted here. Great to see a fellow contributor and I'm a long time follower of your contributions to certain archetypes. Yes, as I'm currently still working on the primer, this is a no BS zone as I did not get a chance to go to States 2012 so I'm back here with a fiery Gruul vengeance to go this year. I always value your opinion as a player, and always thought your posts bring valuable insight.
I have to commend you as I was fully following your Primer and contributions to the Ramp archetype in 2012 which you worked on extensively and was happy to see you very much succeed at your States. The same intensity I will bring here. I concur that this will be an unknown meta, and it's great to have two different Primers for two different takes on Gruul. If going "more rampy" is the way to go you can expect me to be there contributing.
**As I said I am continuing to update the Primer and link to my list from the NCD sub-forum so we have that as a reference point as well. I will be updating the match-up section from the testing I have done thus far, and will continue to update as I get to test more extensively.**
Cassial, I'm happy to see you posted here. Great to see a fellow contributor and I'm a long time follower of your contributions to certain archetypes. Yes, as I'm currently still working on the primer, this is a no BS zone as I did not get a chance to go to States 2012 so I'm back here with a fiery Gruul vengeance to go this year. I always value your opinion as a player, and always thought your posts bring valuable insight.
I have to commend you as I was fully following your Primer and contributions to the Ramp archetype in 2012 which you worked on extensively and was happy to see you very much succeed at your States. The same intensity I will bring here. I concur that this will be an unknown meta, and it's great to have two different Primers for two different takes on Gruul. If going "more rampy" is the way to go you can expect me to be there contributing.
**As I said I am continuing to update the Primer and link to my list from the NCD sub-forum so we have that as a reference point as well. I will be updating the match-up section from the testing I have done thus far, and will continue to update as I get to test more extensively.**
@Seton - Much appreciated, thanks for the kind words and support. I hope I can help everyone here as much as I did last year and in the previous threads.
Before I type up a wall on my thoughts as far as what we know right now (card choices/deck objectives) - we need to talk about what we're up against first. I can't stress this enough, last year in preparing for Fall States, I just pounded out games on Cockatrice, the deck practically built itself as I went along. Eventually you have enough of a *rough* read on the meta/what to expect, and then you tune your deck, or hedge it / slant it towards a certain majority of what you expect. I expected aggro everywhere, mainboarded for it, and kept the sideboard pretty much packed with ways to screw with control. This is my formula, and I'm not saying it's right or anything, but I'd encourage perhaps a section in the Primer towards helping folks figure out the concepts of "tuning" their lists.
Another reason I bring up the tuning thing, as I'm sure you know, Brian Kibler's G/R Hellrider deck is a classic example of one of those decks that just blows people up out of nowhere with strong draws. It's hard to tune, and figure out exactly what is needed, or isn't sometimes, when your deck obliterates or just flops in some games. It was also a very surgical weapon - it was NOT built to attack a wide open metagame, it was perfectly crafted to prey on 13 durdlely slow control decks out of 16 players at Worlds. If nothing else, I stress this when talking about "Kibler versions" of G/R, and it should be a useful example going forward - the cards may be completely different, but his approach was very much a glass cannon. If you're wanting to take on a wide field/unknown meta, I think you have to build differently with that in mind.
Anyway, getting down to business, so far my playtest group has identified a few decks we've got on the radar, (this is very rough/limited testing/nothing conclusive so don't put this in the primer or anything) As of this week, this is what we've tested with; (can provide decklists if requested)
Control Decks:
-Esper Superfriends/(Might be better as Esper Aetherling)
-U/W/R - strongly think this is the balanced/best place to be for control right now
Aggro:
-Mono Red Blitz (this should be a given)
-Selesnya (not surprising)
Midrange:
-Selesnya (Trostani, Selesnya's Voice versions are probably our hardest matchup yet IMO)
Also, Brad Nelson is heavily pushing this archetype, I fully expect a lot of headache trying to tune to beat it, but don't expect to dodge it.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
@Seton - Much appreciated, thanks for the kind words and support. I hope I can help everyone here as much as I did last year and in the previous threads.
Before I type up a wall on my thoughts as far as what we know right now (card choices/deck objectives) - we need to talk about what we're up against first. I can't stress this enough, last year in preparing for Fall States, I just pounded out games on Cockatrice, the deck practically built itself as I went along. Eventually you have enough of a *rough* read on the meta/what to expect, and then you tune your deck, or hedge it / slant it towards a certain majority of what you expect. I expected aggro everywhere, mainboarded for it, and kept the sideboard pretty much packed with ways to screw with control. This is my formula, and I'm not saying it's right or anything, but I'd encourage perhaps a section in the Primer towards helping folks figure out the concepts of "tuning" their lists.
Another reason I bring up the tuning thing, as I'm sure you know, Brian Kibler's G/R Hellrider deck is a classic example of one of those decks that just blows people up out of nowhere with strong draws. It's hard to tune, and figure out exactly what is needed, or isn't sometimes, when your deck obliterates or just flops in some games. It was also a very surgical weapon - it was NOT built to attack a wide open metagame, it was perfectly crafted to prey on 13 durdlely slow control decks out of 16 players at Worlds. If nothing else, I stress this when talking about "Kibler versions" of G/R, and it should be a useful example going forward - the cards may be completely different, but his approach was very much a glass cannon. If you're wanting to take on a wide field/unknown meta, I think you have to build differently with that in mind.
Anyway, getting down to business, so far my playtest group has identified a few decks we've got on the radar, (this is very rough/limited testing/nothing conclusive so don't put this in the primer or anything) As of this week, this is what we've tested with; (can provide decklists if requested)
Control Decks:
-Esper Superfriends/(Might be better as Esper Aetherling)
-U/W/R - strongly think this is the balanced/best place to be for control right now
Aggro:
-Mono Red Blitz (this should be a given)
-Selesnya (not surprising)
Midrange:
-Selesnya (Trostani, Selesnya's Voice versions are probably our hardest matchup yet IMO)
Also, Brad Nelson is heavily pushing this archetype, I fully expect a lot of headache trying to tune to beat it, but don't expect to dodge it.
I concur, this primer so far is kind of "open" as there is a decent but not a large amount of time before states. So there is a sense of urgency to act fast and get AS MUCH testing as possible. Though I did tune it specifically to have the MOST resilient creatures I feel this coming rotation. I feel they are over a wide spread amount of match-ups. As I and I'm sure you Cassial very well know, after a block rotates or a big meta shift aggro will litter tournaments. So I will cover as many aggressive strategies as possible. I will add my RDW testing to the list, this deck put up fair to good results among my play group thus far.
I figured from the feedback in this thread obviously the strongest card choices and even the direct approach to the archetype will open up.
As to your list of archetypes, I feel that's spot on and where my testing will go to next, I feel I should add the following archetype:
B/W Midrange: Obzedat//Blood Baron//Read the Bones ect. The tools are there for a solid showing of this deck and from watching BBD test his "Whip" deck on SSG there is something here to be explored and I would expect it at States.
** As an edit and note I forgot to add a Reserved post under the Primer...doh.** Also, @ Cassial you can also see the original thread and how after testing I changed some cards around to be more effective. Sylvan Carytid has been way better especially in the aggro match-up but that's obvious. It was just better to have that than Satyr Hedonist, consistancy rather than explosiveness. **
I really like G/R and hope the new gruul hasn't lost it's power completely!
What do you guys think of Hammer of Purphoros against control-decks? You can make hasty 3/3 Golems out of your Lands and giving every creature haste is a nice side-effect. Polis Crusher really hurts U/W Control (no Chained To The Rocks or Detention Sphere can stop him - I really like it!
I'd like to start with a *concept sketch* of my own. I'll try to keep this brief, but I think it's worth explaining (briefly)/sharing how we construct decks, I'll put my own in spoilers. I think it's worth mentioning because there will be hundreds of people potentially who will look at this thread, or my list, or anyone elses' list, and we all evaluate other lists based on the context of how we build our own. It's unavoidable, but we do it. This is more just to get it out there, rather than trying to derail the thread, because in the long run this should help other readers get a firm grasp on what the list poster is trying to do, and we should all have less "nitpicking" posts on "why'd you pick that card?". Of course, nobody should feel obligated to share their personal style, I figure it's just a way to break the ice in a new thread that's getting started, but it's also practical in that it may help keep the thread clean over the long haul.
My own deckbuilding style:
I'm an extreme Timmy merged with a Spike. I tend to start my decks with slavish adherence to 4-of's (to put it in Kibler terms) - I work best with extremes first. With this approach, I'll immediately see that a 4-of should become a 3-of, and so on and so on. I prefer it this way as opposed to trying to make a "balanced" deck from the drawing board, I'll just never get it off the ground. You have to push the limits of a deck's greed to first understand what it can or cannot feasibly get away with in a format, and eventually you arrive at the point where you have exactly what you need.
My initial Gruul build - Gruul Earthbreaker. This idea could largely pass as a Mono-G deck splashing R to help it hit critical mass. I'm wanting to play the biggest, most high impact ground creatures on curve, and including multiple ways in the deck to give them trample, rather than relying on reach finishers such as Stormbreath Dragon. There are zero reactive cards mainboard, my game plan is Classic Gruul; try to go big, and as fast as possible, and either go under them, or go through them (trample/push through). This list hasn't been tested much (enough to consider a tuned deck or anything) so I'm posting it more as proof of concept than anything.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming. Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
I'd like to start with a *concept sketch* of my own. I'll try to keep this brief, but I think it's worth explaining (briefly)/sharing how we construct decks, I'll put my own in spoilers. I think it's worth mentioning because there will be hundreds of people potentially who will look at this thread, or my list, or anyone elses' list, and we all evaluate other lists based on the context of how we build our own. It's unavoidable, but we do it. This is more just to get it out there, rather than trying to derail the thread, because in the long run this should help other readers get a firm grasp on what the list poster is trying to do, and we should all have less "nitpicking" posts on "why'd you pick that card?". Of course, nobody should feel obligated to share their personal style, I figure it's just a way to break the ice in a new thread that's getting started, but it's also practical in that it may help keep the thread clean over the long haul.
My own deckbuilding style:
I'm an extreme Timmy merged with a Spike. I tend to start my decks with slavish adherence to 4-of's (to put it in Kibler terms) - I work best with extremes first. With this approach, I'll immediately see that a 4-of should become a 3-of, and so on and so on. I prefer it this way as opposed to trying to make a "balanced" deck from the drawing board, I'll just never get it off the ground. You have to push the limits of a deck's greed to first understand what it can or cannot feasibly get away with in a format, and eventually you arrive at the point where you have exactly what you need.
My initial Gruul build - Gruul Earthbreaker. This idea could largely pass as a Mono-G deck splashing R to help it hit critical mass. I'm wanting to play the biggest, most high impact ground creatures on curve, and including multiple ways in the deck to give them trample, rather than relying on reach finishers such as Stormbreath Dragon. There are zero reactive cards mainboard, my game plan is Classic Gruul; try to go big, and as fast as possible, and either go under them, or go through them (trample/push through). This list hasn't been tested much (enough to consider a tuned deck or anything) so I'm posting it more as proof of concept than anything.
Great tips and great deck by the way and I like on how you see it in a different angle, like instead of running the usuals, you choose to run different set of creatures. I always like Arbor Colossus. I think he got potential and people seems to overlook him maybe.
I have tested your list and it was great ! In my opinion, I think it is just a little bit too much of accelerator. Up against a creature deck, we most likely to win in dropping fatties early because it is like a 1 on 1 battle, but maybe having some difficulties against Grixis. They are able to just wipe off the accelerators and removal one by one each time we drop a fatty.
Below are few my suggestions to the list you've made :
-4 Voyaging Satyr
-3 Xenagos, the Reveler
-1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
+4 Mistcutter Hydra : Great against control decks, just slot in main deck and taking advantage of game 1. Also, the hydra is great at any time during the game. At most I've tested, it gets in at least a 4/4.
+1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
Since our base is G, I think it is safe to add in additional, although I'm not too sure.
+2 Savageborn Hydra
Potential late game winner. Dropping it late at 4/4 and swing next turn at 7/7 double strike !
+1 Rogue's Passage
It is no Kessig Wolf Run but it helps your fatty to go through directly.
Great tips and great deck by the way and I like on how you see it in a different angle, like instead of running the usuals, you choose to run different set of creatures. I always like Arbor Colossus. I think he got potential and people seems to overlook him maybe.
I have tested your list and it was great ! In my opinion, I think it is just a little bit too much of accelerator. Up against a creature deck, we most likely to win in dropping fatties early because it is like a 1 on 1 battle, but maybe having some difficulties against Grixis. They are able to just wipe off the accelerators and removal one by one each time we drop a fatty.
Below are few my suggestions to the list you've made :
-4 Voyaging Satyr
-3 Xenagos, the Reveler
-1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
+4 Mistcutter Hydra : Great against control decks, just slot in main deck and taking advantage of game 1. Also, the hydra is great at any time during the game. At most I've tested, it gets in at least a 4/4.
+1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
Since our base is G, I think it is safe to add in additional, although I'm not too sure.
+2 Savageborn Hydra
Potential late game winner. Dropping it late at 4/4 and swing next turn at 7/7 double strike !
+1 Rogue's Passage
It is no Kessig Wolf Run but it helps your fatty to go through directly.
I agree that running that many mana dorks does seem to leave you open to blowouts if your not careful, but sadly with so little ramping options that aren't creatures it's tough. As a compromise I like to add 2-3 Gruul Keyrune in place of some mana dorks.
hmm never thought about Rouge's Passage, I deff need to test that, because without Nylea the deck can get chumped for days.
I agree that running that many mana dorks does seem to leave you open to blowouts if your not careful, but sadly with so little ramping options that aren't creatures it's tough. As a compromise I like to add 2-3 Gruul Keyrune in place of some mana dorks.
hmm never thought about Rouge's Passage, I deff need to test that, because without Nylea the deck can get chumped for days.
Gruul Keyrune is alright but I think it is only be useful if you can drop it at T2 after elf, or at least mid game creatures can be used to chump block. Pros and cons. As for Rogue's Passage, I have won a game against a creature base deck with the help of it. Opponent's life on 16, I manage to hit him with haste a 6/6 hydra (the path is clear and that's why I like about haste creatures, your opponent did not prepare of the surprise attack), then unblockable 10/8 hydra on next turn with the help of Boon Satyr and the land despite the opponent still have blockers and ready to swing for a win next turn. I'd say pretty lucky.
I think you guys are highly overvaluing Polis Crusher.
I was thinking the same thing tbh, I mean protection from enchantments is relevant against Chained to the Rocks and Detention Sphere. While the enchantment destruction will be almost useless unless enchantment.dec becomes a thing.
Is a 4/4 for 4 with a somewhat relevant protection better than a 4/5 that can destroy 3 lands, or a 5/5 that can kill some of their dudes with his monstrous?
I don't think he is overvalued. I know there are many 4CMC to compete with but I think he is most suitable on few reasons. 1) trample body on his own, 2) possible to hate Chain to the Rocks and Detention Sphere if those decks to use them as main deck. Why wait until game 2 sideboard when you can just make their main deck cards useless.
Polis Crusher vs Ghor-Clan Rampager : Same CMC with trample ability but I think we need the body more than his bloodrush ability.
Polis Crusher vs Ember Swallower : Tough choice, but I value my three lands than reducing opponents three lands.
Polis Crusher vs Polukranos : Despite a bigger body, I think I need the trample body more rather than relying on Nylea or Skarrg Guildemage. As for monstrous cost, I think his ability is overvalued. I mean paying 5 to wipe a 2/2 or two 1/1s is a bit costly unless against weenies or just to kill mana accel. At this time, more 4/4 or even 5/5 or 6/6 is on board.
Zhur Tah is better than Slyvan in an aggro deck. Getting red is irrelevent since you have enough red mana and your only running 1 card that ever needs double red sides overloaded Mizzium but by that time you probably have the mana. I would not play Temple of Abandon either since its too slow and if your trying to be aggressive its not good. From my testing Hydra seems a little too slow for a 5 drop but maybe thats just me.
Personally I would use Xenagos over Magma Jet. With Boon Saty and Ghor Clan you can power through almost anything, so the deck doesnt really need that much removal. Plus Xenagos gives you better chances up against control. The deck gets destroyed by any sort of board wipes, so Xenagos and Domri are the only ways you can make sure you have dudes.
I'm surprised no one is playing satyr hedonist. Going to 5 mana on turn3 is big game as well as giving you another creature to play off burning tree emissary. I'm not a huge fan of stormbreather dragon, but if you must play him run the hedonist. Thundermaw was always lava spike that must be addressed immediately, storm breather is just ehh. The second thundermaw always gamed you, I don't even see three copies of storm breather being that threatening.
I think you guys are highly overvaluing Polis Crusher.
We're not overvaluing him, he is a very good creature. It just depends on what the meta is at the time. I'm going to do some more extensive tesing. I feel that the Crusher is good, but having 5 toughness seems like a good place to be right now. Whether it be Polukranos, or Ember Swallower, or a combination of both.
I don't think he is overvalued. I know there are many 4CMC to compete with but I think he is most suitable on few reasons. 1) trample body on his own, 2) possible to hate Chain to the Rocks and Detention Sphere if those decks to use them as main deck. Why wait until game 2 sideboard when you can just make their main deck cards useless.
Polis Crusher vs Ghor-Clan Rampager : Same CMC with trample ability but I think we need the body more than his bloodrush ability.
Polis Crusher vs Ember Swallower : Tough choice, but I value my three lands than reducing opponents three lands.
Polis Crusher vs Polukranos : Despite a bigger body, I think I need the trample body more rather than relying on Nylea or Skarrg Guildemage. As for monstrous cost, I think his ability is overvalued. I mean paying 5 to wipe a 2/2 or two 1/1s is a bit costly unless against weenies or just to kill mana accel. At this time, more 4/4 or even 5/5 or 6/6 is on board.
Just my 2 cents.
At first I would of normally agreed with you. Polis Crusher is not a bad card, and if the meta was a ton of control he would probably end up being better because he does dodge a good chunk of removal. In the NY/CT area, people love their decks with Islands, so it may still be better for me to run the Crusher.
On the other hand, Ember Swallower is just as effective and he is better against aggro because of his 5 thoughness. I will probably start testing with him, we are still agressive. Though now we can still ramp into his monsterous, which seems very good on paper. Again I'll test it out. Though I feel it will probably end up being better from first glace, especially against aggro decks.
This seems like a good start. Im not sold on Mizzium Mortars or Magma Jet yet. Scavenging Ooze may not be the best card to MD either right now, considering the meta is mostly unknown. I'd rather another higher impact creature.
I'm surprised no one is playing satyr hedonist. Going to 5 mana on turn3 is big game as well as giving you another creature to play off burning tree emissary. I'm not a huge fan of stormbreather dragon, but if you must play him run the hedonist. Thundermaw was always lava spike that must be addressed immediately, storm breather is just ehh. The second thundermaw always gamed you, I don't even see three copies of storm breather being that threatening.
I have played around with all the 2 drop mana producers so far. Hedonist does lead us to an explosive line of play. Though every time he dies before we use him to ramp....is really bad. I think I may just end up going the "safe" pick with Sylvan Carytid, I just rather it not die. It can also wall 2/x's all day.
Again the final choice will come from extensive play-testing over the coming weeks.
Def wants to want ramp into a monstrosity Ember Swallower
Which seems REALLY strong.
This does seem strong, there were lists similar but...I don't really look at the 3 round tournys on there. If I were to go to M-L I'd be looking at Trials only. This was first in the recent Theros trial though.
I think i'll end up testing Ember Swallower. Though just glancing at that list..I don't think I'm sold on Ghor-Clan Rampager. Again don't know if Hedonist > Carytid yet, yes it's explosive but feel we "gas out" too early. Again don't like Scavenging Ooze without an established meta.
Good stuff though guys, i'll update the Primer again. This seems like a good place for a reference as well.
We're not overvaluing him, he is a very good creature. It just depends on what the meta is at the time. I'm going to do some more extensive tesing. I feel that the Crusher is good, but having 5 toughness seems like a good place to be right now. Whether it be Polukranos, or Ember Swallower, or a combination of both.
At first I would of normally agreed with you. Polis Crusher is not a bad card, and if the meta was a ton of control he would probably end up being better because he does dodge a good chunk of removal. In the NY/CT area, people love their decks with Islands, so it may still be better for me to run the Crusher.
On the other hand, Ember Swallower is just as effective and he is better against aggro because of his 5 thoughness. I will probably start testing with him, we are still agressive. Though now we can still ramp into his monsterous, which seems very good on paper. Again I'll test it out. Though I feel it will probably end up being better from first glace, especially against aggro decks.
This seems like a good start. Im not sold on Mizzium Mortars or Magma Jet yet. Scavenging Ooze may not be the best card to MD either right now, considering the meta is mostly unknown. I'd rather another higher impact creature.
Do some testing for us?
I have played around with all the 2 drop mana producers so far. Hedonist does lead us to an explosive line of play. Though every time he dies before we use him to ramp....is really bad. I think I may just end up going the "safe" pick with Sylvan Carytid, I just rather it not die. It can also wall 2/x's all day.
Again the final choice will come from extensive play-testing over the coming weeks.
This does seem strong, there were lists similar but...I don't really look at the 3 round tournys on there. If I were to go to M-L I'd be looking at Trials only. This was first in the recent Theros trial though.
I think i'll end up testing Ember Swallower. Though just glancing at that list..I don't think I'm sold on Ghor-Clan Rampager. Again don't know if Hedonist > Carytid yet, yes it's explosive but feel we "gas out" too early. Again don't like Scavenging Ooze without an established meta.
Good stuff though guys, i'll update the Primer again. This seems like a good place for a reference as well.
the thing about scooze is that he doesnt need an established meta to be good. He becomes better in one that he can distrupt interactions but creatures will die. They will be in the graveyard. He will get bigger and net you some life. That WILL happen.
So, didn't really see any buzz about this but, have a feeling this will be a strong force in the new meta. Probably what I will end up playing once Theros is legal in Standard.
I'm going to throw my list up, one I have been revising as more spoilers got added. Seems really efficient, and plays similar like RG "Kiblar". It really maintains threat density, and can transition into ramping into monstrosity via Xenagos, or just rely on Purpheros to turn late game "dead" draws into shocks. I feel confidant in this list for the upcoming States 2013, I will be playing this extensively and updating this as more testing for states occur.
This thread is about making the best version of RG Gruul Mid-range/Sledge-Hammer version as we can. Please, can't stress this enough, we are preparing for various tournaments and trying to make this deck a VIABLE choice. Match-ups and testing should be behind any and all discussion in this thread. If you have innovations, that's great! Though it should be backed with the proper testing.
For another Gruul strategy, Skyrian's RG RAMP Primer, which can be found here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=538269. Focusing more on a traditional ramp style list that has different variations. In the coming weeks who knows which version may end up being better, but I will be here and hoping other dedicated members strive to make it the best possible for upcoming State tournaments or what have you.
Original SCD Thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=536882 (very aggresive and greedy version).
Current Version 3.0
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Zhur-taa Druid
3x Ember Swallower
3x Polukranos, world eater
1x Ruric-Thar, the Unbowed
3x Ghor-Clan Rampager
2x Arbor Colossus
3x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Boon Satyr
2x Xenagos
2x Mizzium Mortars
4x Stomping Grounds
4x Temple of Abandon
9x Forest
6x Mountain
Version Notes:
ver 3.0
-Using Caryatid and Zhur-taa
-High P/T creatures, all resiliant.
-Arbor Colossus to help bad matchups/big body
-removal of BTE
-Removal of Purphoros
-not MD'ing Mistcutter hydra
ver. 2.5
- Trying out Ember Swallower per feedback from community.
- Still going with the "safe" pick: Sylvan Carytid. Might change this due to area meta.
-Dropping Polis Crusher
-Cutting Xenagos down. Adding Mizzium Mortars.
-Still keeping a couple copies of Purphoros, feel it's still not worth dropping him.
-Cutting one Stormbreath dragon to try other threats.
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Sylvan Carytid
3x Ember Swallower
2x Purphoros, God of the Forge
3x Mistcutter Hydra
3x Stormbreath Dragon
1x Ruric-Thar, the Unbowed
2x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Scavenging Ooze
2x Xenagos, the Reveler
2x Mizzium Mortars
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Stomping Ground
9x Mountain
6x Forest
User submitted decks:
Other Midrange versions: Player feedback//submissions
Cassial's "Gruul Earthshaker 1.0
Words from Cassial about his deckbuilding style:
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Voyaging Satyr
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Zhur-Taa Druid
2x Skarrg Guildmage
4x Polis Crusher
2x Polukranos, World Eater
2x Nylea, God of the Hunt
4x Arbor Colossus
2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3x Xenagos, the Reveler
1x Bow of Nylea
Lands: [23]
9x Forest
5x Mountain
4x Stomping Ground
4x Temple of Abandon
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Other aggressive versions: Player feedback//submissions
Mainly, this deck can have really explosive hands, that's a given.
This can also transition into the mid-game very well with Xenagos and Pupheros, giving the new R/G "Slegdehammer" aggro//Mid-range a new way to continue with added pressure and making our dead draws late game into 2 damage to the dome at the very least. Not to mention Pupheros + Xenagos is quite the great little engine. Monstrosity activation's also are a thing to look at under the scope because it gives us something to do with unwanted mana. Over time and testing can we determine whether or not the final version will be more "Mid-range aggro" or "Mid-range".
Part 1: CMC 1 and 2
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10775641&postcount=81
Part 2: CMC 4
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10784260&postcount=102
Specific card choices: *Edited for certain match-ups.* *Use this depending on what your specific meta is like*
Polis Crusher: I felt it would be advantageous to use the Crusher over say Ghor-Clan Rampager, with the format slowing down a tiny bit, I don't feel there's a reason to be blood-rushing, and losing my creature which I would of normally played and got an extra 2 damage anyway from Pupheros. Not to mention I have a strong feeling Chained to the Rocks and Detention Sphere will be at large in new standard, this guy not only dodges both, but with the help of our ramp via Druid//Satyr or Xenagos can take our permanents back using the Crusher's Monstrosity.
Stormbreath Dragon: This card is a shoe in, basically. There shouldn't be a good reason to not play this card, he's end of the curve and is a fantastic threat that bypasses most removal in post-Theros Standard. Not to mention his Monstrosity gives us some serious reach and game plan for Sphinx's Revelation and similar control strategies.
Boon Satyr: Great threat, can play as an instant, sticks around after a board wipe and you can't get 2-for-1'd when you try to bestow. He's all around flexible and has a great P/T ratio for his cost. It may be worth testing Reverant Hunter as well, he can easily be a 5/5 or 4/4 for 3 mana, but I have a feeling bestow and flash will put Boon Satyr over the edge.
Satyr Hedonist //Zhur-Taa Druid//Sylvan Carytid: I don't know which I will end up using, or a combination of the two.
Impressions from testing:
Scavenging Ooze: Seems like a good creature to have in general, grave-yard themed decks and cards may have rotated, but let's be serious creatures are going to be dying, mainly yours, or your opponents. His ability is still relevant, if anything he can be swapped with any efficient 2cc card.
Purphoros: This guy can really add the reach to an aggro deck. Clearly the best god I think hands down, he pumps late game, can turn those mana producer dead draws into actual threats. No problem playing this guy in multiples either, considering Domri can hit him with his +1, and not to mention you can Play a second purphoros and you will still get the activation from the first one before it's destroyed, it's really win-win here. Him becoming a creature and attacking as a 6/5 indestructible is just gravy.
Credit to Cassial
I don't want this to derail the thread, I wanted to try and come up with some other helpful measure to help us get the maximum value out of all of our cards. This "yardstick list" or something like it might be very helpful on the initial thread primer, and hopefully newcomers to the thread can agree with or be helped by some of this analysis. This is explicitly to help us cut down on posts asking about "how do you guys feel about this card" or "why do I not see your lists running this card" - generally newer posters to the thread make these, and although asking genuine questions should be encouraged, I feel there should be something in place to help folks get up to speed rather than us clogging the thread answering individual questions. I don't think this is a problem or anything, but we are approaching one of the more popular threads status, we should keep it as refined as we possibly can.
**Primer update, I will add the decklists I tested against. Though they may not be the optimal decklist for every archetype, but with rotation it's a little tough to get the exact numbers for these lists down. I will do my best to make sure the community gets the best feedback and input possible.**
Our Standard Gauntlet:
Aggro:
G/W aggro
RDW Blitz
Mid-range:
GW Trostani
U/W/R
B/W Midrange
Control:
U/W Control
Esper Control
Also i've noticed no magma jet/lightning strike/mizzium mortars anywhere in your 60. What do you plan to do to creatures?
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
Thank you! I'm still working on the Primer as we speak, my original list has been modified since I posted it back in NCD section. Will also add a link to the old Thread, no one posted in it sadly but, still think it's a good point of reference.
In terms of removal, from testing the only creature that gives this archetype a hard time is Boros Reckoner. Having removal for him is, well, still bad. So, in that instance I just race. Just drop bigger creatures and work around him, even if that means getting a creature killed by it, which I feel is inevitable. Stormbreath Dragon has really been an all-star in that situation.
In terms of a RDW deck, preliminary testing gives that match-up about a 50/50 and who wins the dice roll. I will have to do more extensive testing. Sylvan Carytid is very good in that match up, blocking Rakdos Cackler and Ash Zealot, gives me time to ramp into Stormbreath Dragon or Ruric-Thar the Unbowed.
I'm asking mainly in the interest of very near-future competitive brewing; we're all on a mission to find out what the best version is. I was fixing to start a primer myself today, but we've got 2 now :). Anyway, I could care less who does it, but, anyone who's interested in tackling tournaments (with Gruul) in the short term - we should obviously be consolidating the most focused versions we can.
IF the meta is right for "going rampy" - then it's right for going rampy. If it's better to be faster, then I believe that needs to be stressed in our primer. It's my hope and obviously invested interest, that we produce a thread (you or me here) that discusses matchups, more than "card selection" or "my version does this" posts. If that's what you're going for here Seton, then our aims align, and I'll be happily on board to grind out matchups and talk tech.
EDIT: basically to spell out what I'm saying, I would like a Primer that says straight from the beginning, we mean business here/no BS brews, and these ideas contained here are backed with matchups/REAL WORK or will be. Aka if you're going to states this year, let's do this right.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Cassial, I'm happy to see you posted here. Great to see a fellow contributor and I'm a long time follower of your contributions to certain archetypes. Yes, as I'm currently still working on the primer, this is a no BS zone as I did not get a chance to go to States 2012 so I'm back here with a fiery Gruul vengeance to go this year. I always value your opinion as a player, and always thought your posts bring valuable insight.
I have to commend you as I was fully following your Primer and contributions to the Ramp archetype in 2012 which you worked on extensively and was happy to see you very much succeed at your States. The same intensity I will bring here. I concur that this will be an unknown meta, and it's great to have two different Primers for two different takes on Gruul. If going "more rampy" is the way to go you can expect me to be there contributing.
**As I said I am continuing to update the Primer and link to my list from the NCD sub-forum so we have that as a reference point as well. I will be updating the match-up section from the testing I have done thus far, and will continue to update as I get to test more extensively.**
@Seton - Much appreciated, thanks for the kind words and support. I hope I can help everyone here as much as I did last year and in the previous threads.
Before I type up a wall on my thoughts as far as what we know right now (card choices/deck objectives) - we need to talk about what we're up against first. I can't stress this enough, last year in preparing for Fall States, I just pounded out games on Cockatrice, the deck practically built itself as I went along. Eventually you have enough of a *rough* read on the meta/what to expect, and then you tune your deck, or hedge it / slant it towards a certain majority of what you expect. I expected aggro everywhere, mainboarded for it, and kept the sideboard pretty much packed with ways to screw with control. This is my formula, and I'm not saying it's right or anything, but I'd encourage perhaps a section in the Primer towards helping folks figure out the concepts of "tuning" their lists.
Another reason I bring up the tuning thing, as I'm sure you know, Brian Kibler's G/R Hellrider deck is a classic example of one of those decks that just blows people up out of nowhere with strong draws. It's hard to tune, and figure out exactly what is needed, or isn't sometimes, when your deck obliterates or just flops in some games. It was also a very surgical weapon - it was NOT built to attack a wide open metagame, it was perfectly crafted to prey on 13 durdlely slow control decks out of 16 players at Worlds. If nothing else, I stress this when talking about "Kibler versions" of G/R, and it should be a useful example going forward - the cards may be completely different, but his approach was very much a glass cannon. If you're wanting to take on a wide field/unknown meta, I think you have to build differently with that in mind.
Anyway, getting down to business, so far my playtest group has identified a few decks we've got on the radar, (this is very rough/limited testing/nothing conclusive so don't put this in the primer or anything) As of this week, this is what we've tested with; (can provide decklists if requested)
Control Decks:
-Esper Superfriends/(Might be better as Esper Aetherling)
-U/W/R - strongly think this is the balanced/best place to be for control right now
Aggro:
-Mono Red Blitz (this should be a given)
-Selesnya (not surprising)
Midrange:
-Selesnya (Trostani, Selesnya's Voice versions are probably our hardest matchup yet IMO)
Also, Brad Nelson is heavily pushing this archetype, I fully expect a lot of headache trying to tune to beat it, but don't expect to dodge it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I concur, this primer so far is kind of "open" as there is a decent but not a large amount of time before states. So there is a sense of urgency to act fast and get AS MUCH testing as possible. Though I did tune it specifically to have the MOST resilient creatures I feel this coming rotation. I feel they are over a wide spread amount of match-ups. As I and I'm sure you Cassial very well know, after a block rotates or a big meta shift aggro will litter tournaments. So I will cover as many aggressive strategies as possible. I will add my RDW testing to the list, this deck put up fair to good results among my play group thus far.
I figured from the feedback in this thread obviously the strongest card choices and even the direct approach to the archetype will open up.
As to your list of archetypes, I feel that's spot on and where my testing will go to next, I feel I should add the following archetype:
B/W Midrange: Obzedat//Blood Baron//Read the Bones ect. The tools are there for a solid showing of this deck and from watching BBD test his "Whip" deck on SSG there is something here to be explored and I would expect it at States.
** As an edit and note I forgot to add a Reserved post under the Primer...doh.** Also, @ Cassial you can also see the original thread and how after testing I changed some cards around to be more effective. Sylvan Carytid has been way better especially in the aggro match-up but that's obvious. It was just better to have that than Satyr Hedonist, consistancy rather than explosiveness. **
What do you guys think of Hammer of Purphoros against control-decks? You can make hasty 3/3 Golems out of your Lands and giving every creature haste is a nice side-effect. Polis Crusher really hurts U/W Control (no Chained To The Rocks or Detention Sphere can stop him - I really like it!
My own deckbuilding style:
My initial Gruul build - Gruul Earthbreaker. This idea could largely pass as a Mono-G deck splashing R to help it hit critical mass. I'm wanting to play the biggest, most high impact ground creatures on curve, and including multiple ways in the deck to give them trample, rather than relying on reach finishers such as Stormbreath Dragon. There are zero reactive cards mainboard, my game plan is Classic Gruul; try to go big, and as fast as possible, and either go under them, or go through them (trample/push through). This list hasn't been tested much (enough to consider a tuned deck or anything) so I'm posting it more as proof of concept than anything.
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Voyaging Satyr
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Zhur-Taa Druid
2x Skarrg Guildmage
4x Polis Crusher
2x Polukranos, World Eater
2x Nylea, God of the Hunt
4x Arbor Colossus
2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3x Domri Rade
3x Xenagos, the Reveler
1x Bow of Nylea
Lands: [23]
9x Forest
5x Mountain
4x Stomping Ground
4x Temple of Abandon
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
9 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Experiment One
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Gyre Sage
4 Boon Satyr
4 Renegade Krasis
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Deadbridge Goliath
4 Mistcutter Hydra
4 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Satyr Hedonist
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Ember Swallower
4 Polis Crusher
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Bow of Nylea
2 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Stomping Ground
8 Mountain
7 Forest
Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming.
Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Originally posted by MemoryLapse and DotMatrix
Great tips and great deck by the way and I like on how you see it in a different angle, like instead of running the usuals, you choose to run different set of creatures. I always like Arbor Colossus. I think he got potential and people seems to overlook him maybe.
I have tested your list and it was great ! In my opinion, I think it is just a little bit too much of accelerator. Up against a creature deck, we most likely to win in dropping fatties early because it is like a 1 on 1 battle, but maybe having some difficulties against Grixis. They are able to just wipe off the accelerators and removal one by one each time we drop a fatty.
Below are few my suggestions to the list you've made :
-4 Voyaging Satyr
-3 Xenagos, the Reveler
-1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
+4 Mistcutter Hydra : Great against control decks, just slot in main deck and taking advantage of game 1. Also, the hydra is great at any time during the game. At most I've tested, it gets in at least a 4/4.
+1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
Since our base is G, I think it is safe to add in additional, although I'm not too sure.
+2 Savageborn Hydra
Potential late game winner. Dropping it late at 4/4 and swing next turn at 7/7 double strike !
+1 Rogue's Passage
It is no Kessig Wolf Run but it helps your fatty to go through directly.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
I agree that running that many mana dorks does seem to leave you open to blowouts if your not careful, but sadly with so little ramping options that aren't creatures it's tough. As a compromise I like to add 2-3 Gruul Keyrune in place of some mana dorks.
hmm never thought about Rouge's Passage, I deff need to test that, because without Nylea the deck can get chumped for days.
Gruul Keyrune is alright but I think it is only be useful if you can drop it at T2 after elf, or at least mid game creatures can be used to chump block. Pros and cons. As for Rogue's Passage, I have won a game against a creature base deck with the help of it. Opponent's life on 16, I manage to hit him with haste a 6/6 hydra (the path is clear and that's why I like about haste creatures, your opponent did not prepare of the surprise attack), then unblockable 10/8 hydra on next turn with the help of Boon Satyr and the land despite the opponent still have blockers and ready to swing for a win next turn. I'd say pretty lucky.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
I was thinking the same thing tbh, I mean protection from enchantments is relevant against Chained to the Rocks and Detention Sphere. While the enchantment destruction will be almost useless unless enchantment.dec becomes a thing.
Is a 4/4 for 4 with a somewhat relevant protection better than a 4/5 that can destroy 3 lands, or a 5/5 that can kill some of their dudes with his monstrous?
Polis Crusher vs Ghor-Clan Rampager : Same CMC with trample ability but I think we need the body more than his bloodrush ability.
Polis Crusher vs Ember Swallower : Tough choice, but I value my three lands than reducing opponents three lands.
Polis Crusher vs Polukranos : Despite a bigger body, I think I need the trample body more rather than relying on Nylea or Skarrg Guildemage. As for monstrous cost, I think his ability is overvalued. I mean paying 5 to wipe a 2/2 or two 1/1s is a bit costly unless against weenies or just to kill mana accel. At this time, more 4/4 or even 5/5 or 6/6 is on board.
Just my 2 cents.
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
4x Elvish Mystic
3x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Burning-tree Emissary
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Boon Satyr
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
2x Kalonian Hydra
4x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Magma Jet
Sorcery (3)
3x Mizzium Mortars
Planeswalker (4)
4x Domri Rade
Lands (23)
10x Forest
7x Mountain
4x Stomping Ground
2x Temple of Abandon
What do you think guys?
I think the list looks alright. Any play test yet ?
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Zhur Tah is better than Slyvan in an aggro deck. Getting red is irrelevent since you have enough red mana and your only running 1 card that ever needs double red sides overloaded Mizzium but by that time you probably have the mana. I would not play Temple of Abandon either since its too slow and if your trying to be aggressive its not good. From my testing Hydra seems a little too slow for a 5 drop but maybe thats just me.
Personally I would use Xenagos over Magma Jet. With Boon Saty and Ghor Clan you can power through almost anything, so the deck doesnt really need that much removal. Plus Xenagos gives you better chances up against control. The deck gets destroyed by any sort of board wipes, so Xenagos and Domri are the only ways you can make sure you have dudes.
9 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
3 Temple of Abandon
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
2 Gyre Sage
1 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Satyr Hedonist
3 Ember Swallower
4 Domri Rade
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Def wants to want ramp into a monstrosity Ember Swallower
Which seems REALLY strong.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
We're not overvaluing him, he is a very good creature. It just depends on what the meta is at the time. I'm going to do some more extensive tesing. I feel that the Crusher is good, but having 5 toughness seems like a good place to be right now. Whether it be Polukranos, or Ember Swallower, or a combination of both.
At first I would of normally agreed with you. Polis Crusher is not a bad card, and if the meta was a ton of control he would probably end up being better because he does dodge a good chunk of removal. In the NY/CT area, people love their decks with Islands, so it may still be better for me to run the Crusher.
On the other hand, Ember Swallower is just as effective and he is better against aggro because of his 5 thoughness. I will probably start testing with him, we are still agressive. Though now we can still ramp into his monsterous, which seems very good on paper. Again I'll test it out. Though I feel it will probably end up being better from first glace, especially against aggro decks.
This seems like a good start. Im not sold on Mizzium Mortars or Magma Jet yet. Scavenging Ooze may not be the best card to MD either right now, considering the meta is mostly unknown. I'd rather another higher impact creature.
Do some testing for us?
I have played around with all the 2 drop mana producers so far. Hedonist does lead us to an explosive line of play. Though every time he dies before we use him to ramp....is really bad. I think I may just end up going the "safe" pick with Sylvan Carytid, I just rather it not die. It can also wall 2/x's all day.
Again the final choice will come from extensive play-testing over the coming weeks.
This does seem strong, there were lists similar but...I don't really look at the 3 round tournys on there. If I were to go to M-L I'd be looking at Trials only. This was first in the recent Theros trial though.
I think i'll end up testing Ember Swallower. Though just glancing at that list..I don't think I'm sold on Ghor-Clan Rampager. Again don't know if Hedonist > Carytid yet, yes it's explosive but feel we "gas out" too early. Again don't like Scavenging Ooze without an established meta.
Good stuff though guys, i'll update the Primer again. This seems like a good place for a reference as well.
the thing about scooze is that he doesnt need an established meta to be good. He becomes better in one that he can distrupt interactions but creatures will die. They will be in the graveyard. He will get bigger and net you some life. That WILL happen.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW