I don't have any problems with it. Never have I had a game where its let me down, because it's supposed to keep you alive, because your an, oh, I don't know, combo deck? The worst this card does is be a Banefire for an extra 1
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iPhone users, if you use imtg or just want someone to play with on your iPhone, add me on the game center: Sgt black lotus.
Currently playing:
Standard - Whatever my friends give me that night lol
I have tested a version almost identical to your deck list when this deck was first being tweaked on the forum and it could not win vs T1 decks to save its life.
1) you only have 3 hedron crap and 0 tome scours... Those ARE WHAT MAKE THIS DECK EVEN WORTH PLAYING.
2) You have cyclers up the waz and almost no Unearthers
3) you only have 3 grim discovery the min is 4 for this deck
4) have you ever actually played a game against jund with your version? because it would be pwned
5) Fleshbag MD is really really bad when you could have unearthers helping you win the game.
Congrats on making a fun deck. Grixis Unearth was my fav kitchen table deck in Alara block so I appreciate that what you're doing here.
That said, how do you answer Bojuka Bog which I see all over the place because its already hoses Emeria, Bloodghast, Relinquary.. You mention Relic in the OP but it's the Bog that's the real problem.
lool wow, I feel like such a horses rear end.
/facepalm x9000
Fleshbags were taken out and replaced with scours. Also I replaced 2 Consumes with a grim and another scour :derp:
I apologise for the incorrect decklist. Im cooking, don't have cards on hand (cooking with my nanny and her girlfriend) and im a little spread out mentaly.
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iPhone users, if you use imtg or just want someone to play with on your iPhone, add me on the game center: Sgt black lotus.
Currently playing:
Standard - Whatever my friends give me that night lol
Congrats on making a fun deck. Grixis Unearth was my fav kitchen table deck in Alara block so I appreciate that what you're doing here.
That said, how do you answer Bojuka Bog which I see all over the place because its already hoses Emeria, Bloodghast, Relinquary.. You mention Relic in the OP but it's the Bog that's the real problem.
there is nothing in standard right now that will stop graveyard hate short of a counter spell...and since you can counter a land there is nothing you can do against the bog except crack a fetch to get all of your bloodghats back.
(On a somewhat related note I live in an apartment with very thin walls and the internet meme "Surprise buttsecks!!" isn't just on the internet anymore. Man that girl sounded pissed off.)
Currently playing Standard
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:symu::symb::symw::symr:AdNauseam:symu::symb::symw::symr:
very sad. I guess that would be having our cake and getting to eat it too, no? Well bad turns of phrase aside has anyone considered Jace, the Mind Sculptor? Yes he seems out of place, but I just thrugh 2 in and his brianstorm has been very helpful in digging for that second creature or critical fetchland. Also I put him in because I couldn't think of what else to put in for fatestitcher, who was seriously underperforming. Opinions?
Jace could do quite well potentially, since he can:
a) Stack mills with Brainstorm as a pseudo-discard outlet
b) Bounce inexpensive creatures like Hedron Crab to trigger Vengevine
c) Stall your opponent by Fatesealing them
d) Prevent a large amount of damage, thereby allowing you to survive a turn
e) Provide an alternate win condition (Ha! My facetiousness knows no bounds!)
But yeah, he's pretty cool. I'm testing with him and Pawn of Ulamog right now, and they're both doing pretty dandy. Having a land count of 23 is also good business, but thorough shuffling is a must.
Minor note: I recently purchased new sleeves and have experienced much less land clumping after playtesting. Cool story.
lool wow, I feel like such a horses rear end.
/facepalm x9000
Fleshbags were taken out and replaced with scours. Also I replaced 2 Consumes with a grim and another scour :derp:
I apologise for the incorrect decklist. Im cooking, don't have cards on hand (cooking with my nanny and her girlfriend) and im a little spread out mentaly.
alright that makes a lot more sense... or else i was going to call you a complete idiot...;)
Jace is good in any deck that can pay 2UU to put it on the stack, and this one is no exception. I could see 1-3 of them in the main, side, or a split between main and board. That doesn't mean he automatically deserves a slot in the deck, though. Jace is the exact opposite of aggressive, and is absolutely useless in the graveyard. Yes, it's something (else) to test, and it potentially could smooth out the deck's consistency. It is quite synergistic with Thought Gorger, Vengevine, and any mill/shuffle effect--but it also costs 4 mana and can be rather clunky. So I plan on testing it soon enough, but it has to earn its keep....
You guys give some very good suggestions. I'm glad I started this thread, and I'm even more glad that I'm getting so much useful information from strangers across the internet. :o:p
I really like the Pawns, but I'm trying them at 2 right now because they're more in the deck to smooth things out than to become the actual focus of the gameplan. I would run more, but space is always a rare commodity for a deck like this one. Still, I do want to point out that some of the coolest interactions in this deck come from the existence of Pawns. The more obvious ones include a number of interactions with Bloodthrone and non-unearthed creatures, but it's also incredible to see what you can do when you have an Extractor Demon or multiple Demons on the table and you start throwing away Spawns. Each spawn generates you a mana, then mills 2 cards per Demon in play. That is an incredible amount of gas. I find it fantastic that you can simply use a Rotting Rats or Gorger to pitch a Demon, set up a couple of spawns through a Pawn and the combat phase, and then use the Demon to dredge more gas before you even attack (allowing you to find another Demon that same turn). Very impressive, though quite subtle. If you're not searching each card for ways to 'be broken,' you can easily miss these sort of tricks.
I put a Fatestitcher back into the deck. While I do think random 1-ofs are a bit weak, I don't believe a singleton Fatestitcher is that random. When you think about it, a maindeck Fatestitcher is actually reach. The whole point is that, over the course of time, you will have a way to use a Crypt the turn you draw it--playing around most LD spells. It gives you another out to a Baneslayer or Colonnade that's sitting at home on defense. It allows the deck to have a sudden burst of mana in one turn, so you can have a stable amount of mana the following turn (or simply win the game immediately).
As far as Leviathans go: I'm standing behind the 3-of. I don't even care if it's sometimes clunky; I almost always want to find this card as fast as possible, and I also really like to have multiples of it. Before you knock it, try the third one out. For power level reasons, I want as many of this card in my deck as I can fit.
On the manabase: I actually went all the way down to 22 lands, and it seems to be rather stable. Figure that Grim Discovery counts as 4 extra mana sources in a deck with 8 fetchlands and 4 Crabs, and Pawn of Ulamog/Crypt of Agadeem boost the mana count even more. What I liked about having 24 lands was that you could mulligan hard for business but be able to rely on the deck to deliver mana on time. But if I'm not mulliganning as often because the deck is just more consistent as a whole, that means I can afford to take some mulligans based on the manabase being a bit greedy.
And I agree with Replika that Creeping Tar Pit is fantastic, so I am running 2.
I don't think there's anything I need to say about the sideboard; it's a stable mix of things that we've been talking about. I suppose it's worth mentioning that I have actually burned out a Mythic deck with a Bloodwitch. I never really cared about the whole tribal interaction (it's really in here as a pro-white blocker that flies), but it certainly doesn't hurt!
I play 61 for a few reasons. Firstly, and this is very minor, I find 22 lands can dilute the deck, but I don't like risking 21. 22/61 has worked phenomenally thus far. The biggest advantage of 61 cards is that it gives the deck some breathing room for sideboarding.
Edit: I just realized that my deck is -1 Tome Scour, +2 Ponder from the original list. I came to this conclusion independently through some really crazy iterations. Great minds think alike I guess.
1) there are too many CTB lands which slows down the game (and also means that you give more time to your opponent to disrupt your engine)
2) i really want more lands to be sure to do something
You really need atleast 3 manas to start having fun with your tools. I can't count how many hands i had to mulligan, not because the engine wasn't here, but just because i had only 1 land in hand, and if my crab was dead, i was dead too. Not counting the hands where i hadn't the crab and needed atleast 2 mana to start doing something.
Your comment on CIPT lands means you haven't tested the deck out as exhaustively yet- you'll soon realize that speed is not of the utmost essence.
viscera dragger : it makes the engine less vulnerable by letting you cycle it, while still being able to unearth it to do some damages (or boost bloodthrone or demon effects) or count for the Crypt mana. I'm aware that wall of omen is not really what viscera dragger wants to meet, but again, i think it's a necessary cost for consistency
Viscera Dragger isn't necessary. The deck is reliable enough as it is, and I think you're being a little too shortsighted considering Hedron Crab as the only mill outlet. Thought Gorger and Extractor Demon are both excellent alternatives, and it is entirely possible to win a game without them.
pawn : yes pawn has a great sinergy with this deck, but, again, it only makes the engine work better, but if it doesn't work, this vampire doesn't really help.
Cutting the Pawn is a possibility- some people might call it a "win more". However, I believe that its combat tricks with Bloodghast and mill shenanigans with Extractor Demon are too much to ignore. The spawn token acceleration is far from negligible as well, so I think I'll be happy with keeping it in the deck.
bloodthrone : i agree, it's a very usefull (and sometimes necessary) tool with the gorger, but having more than 1 of him on the battlefield is useless. + he's very weak to blasts.
Bloodthrone Vampire is pretty much a necessity if you're running Thought Gorger, our secondary pseudo-mill engine. If that weren't enough, its combat tricks with Bloodghast can wreck your opponent's plans early-to-mid game, even swinging straight into an untapped Baneslayer.
grim discovery : i feel like i'm doing nothing when casting more than one of it. Again, i favor the engine to the 'cute effects'.
Grim Discovery is by no means a 'cute effect'. It's one of your most significant cards in the deck. It easily retrieves your fallen crabs, and recycles fetches or Terramorphics to ensure that you meet your land drops.
leviathan : i don't think casting (or 'unearthing') more than 1 leviathan is needed, and 1) if the engine works, you'll probably have your leviathan 2) if the engine doesn't work, you won't be able to have it in time cause it still costs a lot!
Kederekt Leviathan is absolutely fantastic. Every time I unearth it, I win the following turn. I'm still uncertain as to whether I should run three or two, but I cannot deny that it is incredibly good.
Also, just a minor note- the Crypt effect is extremely useful, and already relevant once there are four creatures in your graveyard- you can meet the two creatures cast requirement to activate Vengevine with relative ease. The land count can stand to be lower because of this, since your mills will then be more relevant, and Pawn of Ulamog's Spawn-ramping is much better than I expected as well.
I'm testing Jace, the Mind Sculptor right now. It's just not that useful, for its prohibitive mana cost (which really is a problem because it interferes with Crypt, as anyone will notice if they try putting Jace into this deck). I'm going to test it against a few different archetypes, and if it continues to fail then I'm done with the card. It doesn't do enough in a single turn of use, and it usually isn't living past one turn. I'm not happy with it at all.
Any thoughts on a Grixis build or do you think that'd be stretching the mana base?
I'm just curious enough to try out Sedraxis Specter for some more unearth goodness (he seems ridonkulous in here) and maybe Sarkhan the Mad as another sac outlet, especially for all the Unearth dudes.
While I agree that casting Vengevine is not a good reason to splash green, it could be a mediocre side effect of splashing green for Nature's Spiral. I'll have to give it a try.
I'm sorry I really wanted this list to be good, becuase I love Thought Gorger in dredge and I really like the idea of Vengevine in the list, but after some play testing I have to say sorry, but I just don't think it will work well, having a creature that is completely useless, unless it gets discarded AND you cast two creatures, just isn't worth a four spot in any deck, so many games I sat there with vengevine in my hand or leviathon, or demon and no way to get it to grave or play, staring at a hand full of cards that are only usefull if you discard them is kind of annoying, Have you considered going straight up Green-Black dredge? I think if your not gonna be focusing on the combo side of Crypt of Agadeem (I:E Cyclers and unearthers) It might be a good idea to take a more aggro approach, I really like the idea of Going to G/B instead of U/B (at least if you want to stick to vengevine) so I might put a tennative list together and post it up here, I relize you lose the mill, but you'll also be less reliant on the graveyard, possibly making the deck more stable.
I'm sorry I really wanted this list to be good, becuase I love Thought Gorger in dredge and I really like the idea of Vengevine in the list, but after some play testing I have to say sorry, but I just don't think it will work well, having a creature that is completely useless, unless it gets discarded AND you cast two creatures, just isn't worth a four spot in any deck, so many games I sat there with vengevine in my hand or leviathon, or demon and no way to get it to grave or play, staring at a hand full of cards that are only usefull if you discard them is kind of annoying, Have you considered going straight up Green-Black dredge? I think if your not gonna be focusing on the combo side of Crypt of Agadeem (I:E Cyclers and unearthers) It might be a good idea to take a more aggro approach, I really like the idea of Going to G/B instead of U/B (at least if you want to stick to vengevine) so I might put a tennative list together and post it up here, I relize you lose the mill, but you'll also be less reliant on the graveyard, possibly making the deck more stable.
How hard is it to cast a Rotting Rats, pitch a Vengevine, and then cast a Bloodthrone Vampire? How strenuous is it to use a Leviathan to bounce the table, then recast 2 creatures of yours that were bounced? How impossible is it to cast Crab, play and crack a fetch, and then cast a second creature? I don't think any of these tasks are particularly daunting. Am I right?
If you can't reanimate Vengevines in this deck, you need to open your mind and look at new ideas with a sense of ingenuity. I gave a fair warning in the opening post of this thread that the deck is difficult to play, and rather counter-intuitive to most accepted doctrines of MTG game-play. Why should I need green mana in order to put a Vengevine on the table? Because that's the way 'fair' decks do it? This is combo; I don't need to screw up my manabase with forests.
If you cut the mill, you're cutting the Crypts, Extractor Demons, Kederekt Leviathans, etc.
So no.
Not Necessarily, if your playing thought gorger, crypt can still be very usefull, so can Extractor Demons (remember he can still mill), and rotting rats, granted you lose Leviathan, but I'm sorry, your list just doesn't play consistently enough to stay U/B (I'll admit when it wins it wins big but it happens so rarely), not if you want to keep Vengevines in, by playing like this you lose all of what made the Crypt Lists consistent and explosive and you don't even get past its biggest weakness, graveyard hate, think about what you gain by going G/B, a more consistent game against Graveyard hate, the ability to actually play your creatures (GASP!) Realms uncharted with grim discovery (Fun) less CIPT lands, Maelstrom Pulse, Putrid Leech, I mean the possibilites are limitless, I'm not knocking the U/B t2 dredge lists, I think they're allota fun, but I am saying that Vengevine doesn't play as well as he could in these colors. Because your staying stuck in these colors You're playing sub-par creatures just to try and force Vengevine to work.
Not Necessarily, if your playing thought gorger, crypt can still be very usefull, so can Extractor Demons (remember he can still mill), and rotting rats, granted you lose Leviathan, but I'm sorry, your list just doesn't play consistently enough to stay U/B (I'll admit when it wins it wins big but it happens so rarely), not if you want to keep Vengevines in, by playing like this you lose all of what made the Crypt Lists consistent and explosive and you don't even get past its biggest weakness, graveyard hate, think about what you gain by going G/B, a more consistent game against Graveyard hate, the ability to actually play your creatures (GASP!) Realms uncharted with grim discovery (Fun) less CIPT lands, Maelstrom Pulse, Putrid Leech, I mean the possibilites are limitless, I'm not knocking the U/B t2 dredge lists, I think they're allota fun, but I am saying that Vengevine doesn't play as well as he could in these colors. Because your staying stuck in these colors You're playing sub-par creatures just to try and force Vengevine to work.
1st, were not making vengevine work to the exclusion of everything else - it just fits in well with the way this deck functions. ie - it is a recurring beater that is activated by 2 cheap creatures. now, considering what cheap creatures we have, this makes sense: bloodthrone vampire - pumpable 2 drop that maximised the use of pawn, bloodghast, rats, pretty much anything. crabs - 1 drop that mills for unearthing or greater crypt usage. bloodghast - incredible 2 drop that synergises with the vampire, pawn, crabs, and what this deck is doing. rats - 2 drop that unearths and can drop a vengevine/demon/leviathan into the GY, as well as emptying the ops hand.
there are plenty of 2 drops to warrent a good use of vengevine. the only issue is how to get him in the GY. well, you have crab mill, rat discard, extractor mill or gorger discard. thats 4 viable ways to get him in the yard when you want him there. he is not too hard to play around.
now, this point might be moot if we were playing a deck that focused soley on activating the crypt combo and comboing off. however, this is definately not the case. this deck can function as a crypt combo (easily), but can also act aggressively (bloodghasts, pawns and bloodthrone vampires), midrange (thought gorgers), or control (leviathan, rats). if you are just trying to get the deck to combo off, of course you are going to lose most of your games, because this version of the deck does not win with the combo all the time. if you want to combo off, go to the standard dredge page.
as to playing sub-par creatures, each creature has synergy with not just one other creature, but several, and is mostly critical to contributing to one or many of the several win cons of this deck. sure, by itself a bloodghast or a vampire sucks, but combine the two together, or with a thought gorger, or with 2 vengevines in the yard, and suddenly these two sub-par creatures synergise for a massively explosive turn.
and because we actually do play our creatures (GASP!), we are less vaunerable to graveyard hate than you would think. besides, if they are playing hate, then hold back a gorger with cards and slow role them with a demon or 2 in the yard and some ghasts or vines. OR you could just play everything and start bashing with the vampire or gorger. a 5/5-7/7 trampling creature on T4 usually says remove me or die, but if you remove it, you draw a new hand. pretty good..
as to consistency, it depends on how you play the deck (derr). if your going for the combo, then it will not play consistently, because those pieces arnt all here. if your trying to play it as an agro deck, it will fail, becuase thats not what its all about. you draw your hand, check it out, hopefully consider what the opps playing, then figure out which route your going to take (unearth/beatdown/midrange), then work out if you can pull it off. if you know the ins and outs of the deck, then its much more consistent because you are working towards what the deck is trying to do.
*edit* just again, this isnt a typical crypt list. that list can be found here.
This is not standard dredge, its dredgevine. and we are not forcing vengevine to work, it just fits in perfectly with the deck
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How hard is it to cast a Rotting Rats, pitch a Vengevine, and then cast a Bloodthrone Vampire? How strenuous is it to use a Leviathan to bounce the table, then recast 2 creatures of yours that were bounced? How impossible is it to cast Crab, play and crack a fetch, and then cast a second creature? I don't think any of these tasks are particularly daunting. Am I right?
If you can't reanimate Vengevines in this deck, you need to open your mind and look at new ideas with a sense of ingenuity. I gave a fair warning in the opening post of this thread that the deck is difficult to play, and rather counter-intuitive to most accepted doctrines of MTG game-play. Why should I need green mana in order to put a Vengevine on the table? Because that's the way 'fair' decks do it? This is combo; I don't need to screw up my manabase with forests.
Buddy, I've been playing Dredge since Bridge from Below came out, I've been playing Ichorid in legacy for over two years now, and I've been playing Crypt combo for a few months, I have put in countless hours testing and reworking the T2 Dredge list because I'd love to see it become more competative, I know all the little tricks that come with Crypt combo, I'm well aware that Dredge doesn't play under conventional means, and I'm telling you from expierience, Vengevine is losing you the pieces of U/B Crypt that make it play really well, and it doesn't add that much, the recurring 4/3 is nice, but what I was pointing out earlier is that to often, you end up with a fistfull of creatures that need to see the graveyard, and no way to get them there, and with no cyclers, you don't even have deck thinning to get yourself there, I think its a really cool idea, but I just haven't seen it work very well inside of U/B colors, vengevine is just to conditional to try and combo like this, you need to see to much.
The point of the original U/B Crypt list was to generate obscene amounts of mana for one turn of unearth beatdown. This list is not so strenuous mana-wise, and you just need to generate four, even three mana to trigger Vengevine, which is a breeze even without Crypt. If you think that having Vengevine in the graveyard and four mana available is "conditional", you shouldn't be playing Dredge.
The point of the original U/B Crypt list was to generate obscene amounts of mana for one turn of unearth beatdown. This list is not so strenuous mana-wise, and you just need to generate four, even three mana to trigger Vengevine, which is a breeze even without Crypt. If you think that having Vengevine in the graveyard and four mana available is "conditional", you shouldn't be playing Dredge.
If thats the only way you were playing the old lists than you were playing them wrong, they could also start out with smaller amounts of mana and do small swings to set themselves up for bigger swings later (thanks to good old extractor demon) Vengevine is conditional in this list because he has to be in the graveyard, he needs to have 2 creautres come down, and those two creatures need to see the right mana to be played, I'll admit that I think I got off on the wrong foot, I like the list and the idea, I really do, but it doesn't play consistently enough, you have no way to set up your hand, so if you get stuck on a crappy hand (as I so often do) that all your gonna see all game, I would say that if you want to stick with U/B Vengevine you need to get rid of a few things, firstly, I'd say aidios to the Pawns and the Bloodthrones, this is what I'm taking about when I say subpar creatures, there slower than your opponents creatures and they won't be nearly as big, plus there abilities don't do enought to help you win, bloodghast is iffy to me, I like him, but he can't block, I mean to me he would be an amazing card at a 2/1 recurring chumper that could also put on pressure, but since all he can do is put on pressure, hes often not as useful as say something that could come down and stop there guys from dealing damage for a bit. I'd still really like to see a GB list of this, or even GBu splashing blue for just Crab or something, but I don't have the time right now to put one together. I'm not trying to bash your list, or the work you've put into it, I'm trying to give you constructive criticizm so that the list will improve, because I would love to take something like this into some competative play.
If thats the only way you were playing the old lists than you were playing them wrong, they could also start out with smaller amounts of mana and do small swings to set themselves up for bigger swings later (thanks to good old extractor demon) Vengevine is conditional in this list because he has to be in the graveyard, he needs to have 2 creautres come down, and those two creatures need to see the right mana to be played, I'll admit that I think I got off on the wrong foot, I like the list and the idea, I really do, but it doesn't play consistently enough, you have no way to set up your hand, so if you get stuck on a crappy hand (as I so often do) that all your gonna see all game,
I'm not really a grammar nazi, but it's really, really hard to dissect what you're saying when your sentences last this long. I have a strong tendency myself to create comma splices, but this is just overkill. Please separate your thoughts a bit more, so it's not so thoroughly confusing to read your posts.
I would say that if you want to stick with U/B Vengevine you need to get rid of a few things, firstly, I'd say aidios to the Pawns and the Bloodthrones, this is what I'm taking about when I say subpar creatures, there slower than your opponents creatures and they won't be nearly as big,
You have no idea what you're talking about, here. Bloodthrone Vampire is often a huge creature in this deck, and it also greatly aids Thought Gorger and Extractor Demon in giving this deck gas as you need it. It lets you swing into Baneslayer Angels without a care in the world, and (GASP!) Bloodthrone Vampire usually kills Baneslayer Angel in combat. That's how "small" the creature is when you have a bunch of expendable dudes on the table. It's so powerful in this deck, I'm planning to test Vampire Aristocrat as a 5th one. If you really think Bloodthrone Vampire is bad in this deck, I'm inclined to question whether you actually have played this deck or you're just trolling the thread.
I'm not even going to touch on why Pawn of Ulamog is good in this deck. If you don't understand the strengths and utility of Bloodthrone Vampire, there's no chance you're going to comprehend how Pawn works.
plus there abilities don't do enought to help you win, bloodghast is iffy to me, I like him, but he can't block, I mean to me he would be an amazing card at a 2/1 recurring chumper that could also put on pressure, but since all he can do is put on pressure, hes often not as useful as say something that could come down and stop there guys from dealing damage for a bit.
He does all of this if you have a Bloodthrone Vampire on the table. Bloodthrone becomes a black Plated Geopede when a single Bloodghast is in your graveyard. It's even bigger if you have the Ghast on the table, or multiple Ghasts are involved. I hear 2-mana 5/5s are pretty good defenders. Even 2-mana 3/4s are pretty good defenders, in faster formats.
And do you realize that Bloodghats comboes with Leviathan and Vengevine? You get a free Bloodghast or two off a landfall. Next, you unearth a Leviathan and bounce the free Bloodghasts. Now you cast the Bloodghasts and all your Vengevines hit the table. You have a 5/5 and X number of 4/3s, all with haste, and you have a pair of 2/1s that are swinging in next turn. If you don't win with that, all your Bloodghasts are going to get haste very soon, and multiple hasted Bloodghasts have a tendency to win games against any deck.
I'd still really like to see a GB list of this, or even GBu splashing blue for just Crab or something, but I don't have the time right now to put one together. I'm not trying to bash your list, or the work you've put into it, I'm trying to give you constructive criticizm so that the list will improve, because I would love to take something like this into some competative play.
If you don't know how something works, how can you possibly expect to improve it?
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iPhone users, if you use imtg or just want someone to play with on your iPhone, add me on the game center: Sgt black lotus.
Modern - WURG French Toast
Legacy - WURG Legacy Toast
EDH - UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
1) you only have 3 hedron crap and 0 tome scours... Those ARE WHAT MAKE THIS DECK EVEN WORTH PLAYING.
2) You have cyclers up the waz and almost no Unearthers
3) you only have 3 grim discovery the min is 4 for this deck
4) have you ever actually played a game against jund with your version? because it would be pwned
5) Fleshbag MD is really really bad when you could have unearthers helping you win the game.
6) etc......
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
That said, how do you answer Bojuka Bog which I see all over the place because its already hoses Emeria, Bloodghast, Relinquary.. You mention Relic in the OP but it's the Bog that's the real problem.
/facepalm x9000
Fleshbags were taken out and replaced with scours. Also I replaced 2 Consumes with a grim and another scour :derp:
I apologise for the incorrect decklist. Im cooking, don't have cards on hand (cooking with my nanny and her girlfriend) and im a little spread out mentaly.
iPhone users, if you use imtg or just want someone to play with on your iPhone, add me on the game center: Sgt black lotus.
Modern - WURG French Toast
Legacy - WURG Legacy Toast
EDH - UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
there is nothing in standard right now that will stop graveyard hate short of a counter spell...and since you can counter a land there is nothing you can do against the bog except crack a fetch to get all of your bloodghats back.
Currently playing
Standard
:symr::symu::symg::symw:Mid-range:symr::symu::symg::symw:
Modern
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Jace could do quite well potentially, since he can:
a) Stack mills with Brainstorm as a pseudo-discard outlet
b) Bounce inexpensive creatures like Hedron Crab to trigger Vengevine
c) Stall your opponent by Fatesealing them
d) Prevent a large amount of damage, thereby allowing you to survive a turn
e) Provide an alternate win condition (Ha! My facetiousness knows no bounds!)
But yeah, he's pretty cool. I'm testing with him and Pawn of Ulamog right now, and they're both doing pretty dandy. Having a land count of 23 is also good business, but thorough shuffling is a must.
Minor note: I recently purchased new sleeves and have experienced much less land clumping after playtesting. Cool story.
alright that makes a lot more sense... or else i was going to call you a complete idiot...;)
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
Here is a full 75 based on recent tuning:
4 Swamp
3 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Grim Discovery
4 Vengevine
3 Kederekt Leviathan
1 Fatestitcher
4 Thought Gorger
4 Extractor Demon
4 Rotting Rats
4 Bloodthrone Vampire
4 Bloodghast
2 Pawn of Ulamog
3 Aether Tradewinds
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
4 Doom Blade
2 Deathmark
4 Blister Beetle
You guys give some very good suggestions. I'm glad I started this thread, and I'm even more glad that I'm getting so much useful information from strangers across the internet. :o:p
I really like the Pawns, but I'm trying them at 2 right now because they're more in the deck to smooth things out than to become the actual focus of the gameplan. I would run more, but space is always a rare commodity for a deck like this one. Still, I do want to point out that some of the coolest interactions in this deck come from the existence of Pawns. The more obvious ones include a number of interactions with Bloodthrone and non-unearthed creatures, but it's also incredible to see what you can do when you have an Extractor Demon or multiple Demons on the table and you start throwing away Spawns. Each spawn generates you a mana, then mills 2 cards per Demon in play. That is an incredible amount of gas. I find it fantastic that you can simply use a Rotting Rats or Gorger to pitch a Demon, set up a couple of spawns through a Pawn and the combat phase, and then use the Demon to dredge more gas before you even attack (allowing you to find another Demon that same turn). Very impressive, though quite subtle. If you're not searching each card for ways to 'be broken,' you can easily miss these sort of tricks.
I put a Fatestitcher back into the deck. While I do think random 1-ofs are a bit weak, I don't believe a singleton Fatestitcher is that random. When you think about it, a maindeck Fatestitcher is actually reach. The whole point is that, over the course of time, you will have a way to use a Crypt the turn you draw it--playing around most LD spells. It gives you another out to a Baneslayer or Colonnade that's sitting at home on defense. It allows the deck to have a sudden burst of mana in one turn, so you can have a stable amount of mana the following turn (or simply win the game immediately).
As far as Leviathans go: I'm standing behind the 3-of. I don't even care if it's sometimes clunky; I almost always want to find this card as fast as possible, and I also really like to have multiples of it. Before you knock it, try the third one out. For power level reasons, I want as many of this card in my deck as I can fit.
On the manabase: I actually went all the way down to 22 lands, and it seems to be rather stable. Figure that Grim Discovery counts as 4 extra mana sources in a deck with 8 fetchlands and 4 Crabs, and Pawn of Ulamog/Crypt of Agadeem boost the mana count even more. What I liked about having 24 lands was that you could mulligan hard for business but be able to rely on the deck to deliver mana on time. But if I'm not mulliganning as often because the deck is just more consistent as a whole, that means I can afford to take some mulligans based on the manabase being a bit greedy.
And I agree with Replika that Creeping Tar Pit is fantastic, so I am running 2.
I don't think there's anything I need to say about the sideboard; it's a stable mix of things that we've been talking about. I suppose it's worth mentioning that I have actually burned out a Mythic deck with a Bloodwitch. I never really cared about the whole tribal interaction (it's really in here as a pro-white blocker that flies), but it certainly doesn't hurt!
4 Architects of Will
4 Viscera Dragger
3 Ponder
4 Rotting Rats
4 Sedraxis Specter
4 Extractor Demon
2 Fatestitcher
4 Grim Discovery
3 Tome Scour
4 Crypt of Agadeem
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
3 Island
Edit: I just realized that my deck is -1 Tome Scour, +2 Ponder from the original list. I came to this conclusion independently through some really crazy iterations. Great minds think alike I guess.
4 Grim Discovery
2 Fatestitcher
4 Viscera Dragger
4 Tome Scour
4 Rotting Rats
4 Hedron Crab
4 Extractor Demon
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Marsh Flats
4 Crypt of Agadeem
4 Island
5 Swamp
4 Bloodghast
3 Thought Gorger
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Corpse Connoisseur
3 Deathmark
2 Kederekt Leviathan
3 Suffer the Past
3 Blister Beetle
Bloodghasts and the Creeping Tarpits work phenomenally for me
I've cut the red splash just because all it gave was the Sedraxis Specters and the bloodghasts have been working better for me anyway
Your comment on CIPT lands means you haven't tested the deck out as exhaustively yet- you'll soon realize that speed is not of the utmost essence.
Viscera Dragger isn't necessary. The deck is reliable enough as it is, and I think you're being a little too shortsighted considering Hedron Crab as the only mill outlet. Thought Gorger and Extractor Demon are both excellent alternatives, and it is entirely possible to win a game without them.
Corpse Connoisseur would be a good card- unfortunately, it's too expensive when we need it the most. When we don't, it's dead weight.
Cutting the Pawn is a possibility- some people might call it a "win more". However, I believe that its combat tricks with Bloodghast and mill shenanigans with Extractor Demon are too much to ignore. The spawn token acceleration is far from negligible as well, so I think I'll be happy with keeping it in the deck.
Bloodthrone Vampire is pretty much a necessity if you're running Thought Gorger, our secondary pseudo-mill engine. If that weren't enough, its combat tricks with Bloodghast can wreck your opponent's plans early-to-mid game, even swinging straight into an untapped Baneslayer.
Grim Discovery is by no means a 'cute effect'. It's one of your most significant cards in the deck. It easily retrieves your fallen crabs, and recycles fetches or Terramorphics to ensure that you meet your land drops.
Kederekt Leviathan is absolutely fantastic. Every time I unearth it, I win the following turn. I'm still uncertain as to whether I should run three or two, but I cannot deny that it is incredibly good.
Also, just a minor note- the Crypt effect is extremely useful, and already relevant once there are four creatures in your graveyard- you can meet the two creatures cast requirement to activate Vengevine with relative ease. The land count can stand to be lower because of this, since your mills will then be more relevant, and Pawn of Ulamog's Spawn-ramping is much better than I expected as well.
ive been really interested in this style of deck since crypt of agadeem was released.
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Nope. Paying 4 mana for a free creature is usually a misplay. You almost always have a way to discard a Vengevine sitting in your hand, anyways.
I'm just curious enough to try out Sedraxis Specter for some more unearth goodness (he seems ridonkulous in here) and maybe Sarkhan the Mad as another sac outlet, especially for all the Unearth dudes.
So no.
How hard is it to cast a Rotting Rats, pitch a Vengevine, and then cast a Bloodthrone Vampire? How strenuous is it to use a Leviathan to bounce the table, then recast 2 creatures of yours that were bounced? How impossible is it to cast Crab, play and crack a fetch, and then cast a second creature? I don't think any of these tasks are particularly daunting. Am I right?
If you can't reanimate Vengevines in this deck, you need to open your mind and look at new ideas with a sense of ingenuity. I gave a fair warning in the opening post of this thread that the deck is difficult to play, and rather counter-intuitive to most accepted doctrines of MTG game-play. Why should I need green mana in order to put a Vengevine on the table? Because that's the way 'fair' decks do it? This is combo; I don't need to screw up my manabase with forests.
Not Necessarily, if your playing thought gorger, crypt can still be very usefull, so can Extractor Demons (remember he can still mill), and rotting rats, granted you lose Leviathan, but I'm sorry, your list just doesn't play consistently enough to stay U/B (I'll admit when it wins it wins big but it happens so rarely), not if you want to keep Vengevines in, by playing like this you lose all of what made the Crypt Lists consistent and explosive and you don't even get past its biggest weakness, graveyard hate, think about what you gain by going G/B, a more consistent game against Graveyard hate, the ability to actually play your creatures (GASP!) Realms uncharted with grim discovery (Fun) less CIPT lands, Maelstrom Pulse, Putrid Leech, I mean the possibilites are limitless, I'm not knocking the U/B t2 dredge lists, I think they're allota fun, but I am saying that Vengevine doesn't play as well as he could in these colors. Because your staying stuck in these colors You're playing sub-par creatures just to try and force Vengevine to work.
1st, were not making vengevine work to the exclusion of everything else - it just fits in well with the way this deck functions. ie - it is a recurring beater that is activated by 2 cheap creatures. now, considering what cheap creatures we have, this makes sense: bloodthrone vampire - pumpable 2 drop that maximised the use of pawn, bloodghast, rats, pretty much anything. crabs - 1 drop that mills for unearthing or greater crypt usage. bloodghast - incredible 2 drop that synergises with the vampire, pawn, crabs, and what this deck is doing. rats - 2 drop that unearths and can drop a vengevine/demon/leviathan into the GY, as well as emptying the ops hand.
there are plenty of 2 drops to warrent a good use of vengevine. the only issue is how to get him in the GY. well, you have crab mill, rat discard, extractor mill or gorger discard. thats 4 viable ways to get him in the yard when you want him there. he is not too hard to play around.
now, this point might be moot if we were playing a deck that focused soley on activating the crypt combo and comboing off. however, this is definately not the case. this deck can function as a crypt combo (easily), but can also act aggressively (bloodghasts, pawns and bloodthrone vampires), midrange (thought gorgers), or control (leviathan, rats). if you are just trying to get the deck to combo off, of course you are going to lose most of your games, because this version of the deck does not win with the combo all the time. if you want to combo off, go to the standard dredge page.
as to playing sub-par creatures, each creature has synergy with not just one other creature, but several, and is mostly critical to contributing to one or many of the several win cons of this deck. sure, by itself a bloodghast or a vampire sucks, but combine the two together, or with a thought gorger, or with 2 vengevines in the yard, and suddenly these two sub-par creatures synergise for a massively explosive turn.
and because we actually do play our creatures (GASP!), we are less vaunerable to graveyard hate than you would think. besides, if they are playing hate, then hold back a gorger with cards and slow role them with a demon or 2 in the yard and some ghasts or vines. OR you could just play everything and start bashing with the vampire or gorger. a 5/5-7/7 trampling creature on T4 usually says remove me or die, but if you remove it, you draw a new hand. pretty good..
as to consistency, it depends on how you play the deck (derr). if your going for the combo, then it will not play consistently, because those pieces arnt all here. if your trying to play it as an agro deck, it will fail, becuase thats not what its all about. you draw your hand, check it out, hopefully consider what the opps playing, then figure out which route your going to take (unearth/beatdown/midrange), then work out if you can pull it off. if you know the ins and outs of the deck, then its much more consistent because you are working towards what the deck is trying to do.
*edit* just again, this isnt a typical crypt list. that list can be found here.
This is not standard dredge, its dredgevine. and we are not forcing vengevine to work, it just fits in perfectly with the deck
*edit again*
its not exclusively a combo deck!
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Buddy, I've been playing Dredge since Bridge from Below came out, I've been playing Ichorid in legacy for over two years now, and I've been playing Crypt combo for a few months, I have put in countless hours testing and reworking the T2 Dredge list because I'd love to see it become more competative, I know all the little tricks that come with Crypt combo, I'm well aware that Dredge doesn't play under conventional means, and I'm telling you from expierience, Vengevine is losing you the pieces of U/B Crypt that make it play really well, and it doesn't add that much, the recurring 4/3 is nice, but what I was pointing out earlier is that to often, you end up with a fistfull of creatures that need to see the graveyard, and no way to get them there, and with no cyclers, you don't even have deck thinning to get yourself there, I think its a really cool idea, but I just haven't seen it work very well inside of U/B colors, vengevine is just to conditional to try and combo like this, you need to see to much.
If thats the only way you were playing the old lists than you were playing them wrong, they could also start out with smaller amounts of mana and do small swings to set themselves up for bigger swings later (thanks to good old extractor demon) Vengevine is conditional in this list because he has to be in the graveyard, he needs to have 2 creautres come down, and those two creatures need to see the right mana to be played, I'll admit that I think I got off on the wrong foot, I like the list and the idea, I really do, but it doesn't play consistently enough, you have no way to set up your hand, so if you get stuck on a crappy hand (as I so often do) that all your gonna see all game, I would say that if you want to stick with U/B Vengevine you need to get rid of a few things, firstly, I'd say aidios to the Pawns and the Bloodthrones, this is what I'm taking about when I say subpar creatures, there slower than your opponents creatures and they won't be nearly as big, plus there abilities don't do enought to help you win, bloodghast is iffy to me, I like him, but he can't block, I mean to me he would be an amazing card at a 2/1 recurring chumper that could also put on pressure, but since all he can do is put on pressure, hes often not as useful as say something that could come down and stop there guys from dealing damage for a bit. I'd still really like to see a GB list of this, or even GBu splashing blue for just Crab or something, but I don't have the time right now to put one together. I'm not trying to bash your list, or the work you've put into it, I'm trying to give you constructive criticizm so that the list will improve, because I would love to take something like this into some competative play.
I'm not really a grammar nazi, but it's really, really hard to dissect what you're saying when your sentences last this long. I have a strong tendency myself to create comma splices, but this is just overkill. Please separate your thoughts a bit more, so it's not so thoroughly confusing to read your posts.
You have no idea what you're talking about, here. Bloodthrone Vampire is often a huge creature in this deck, and it also greatly aids Thought Gorger and Extractor Demon in giving this deck gas as you need it. It lets you swing into Baneslayer Angels without a care in the world, and (GASP!) Bloodthrone Vampire usually kills Baneslayer Angel in combat. That's how "small" the creature is when you have a bunch of expendable dudes on the table. It's so powerful in this deck, I'm planning to test Vampire Aristocrat as a 5th one. If you really think Bloodthrone Vampire is bad in this deck, I'm inclined to question whether you actually have played this deck or you're just trolling the thread.
I'm not even going to touch on why Pawn of Ulamog is good in this deck. If you don't understand the strengths and utility of Bloodthrone Vampire, there's no chance you're going to comprehend how Pawn works.
He does all of this if you have a Bloodthrone Vampire on the table. Bloodthrone becomes a black Plated Geopede when a single Bloodghast is in your graveyard. It's even bigger if you have the Ghast on the table, or multiple Ghasts are involved. I hear 2-mana 5/5s are pretty good defenders. Even 2-mana 3/4s are pretty good defenders, in faster formats.
And do you realize that Bloodghats comboes with Leviathan and Vengevine? You get a free Bloodghast or two off a landfall. Next, you unearth a Leviathan and bounce the free Bloodghasts. Now you cast the Bloodghasts and all your Vengevines hit the table. You have a 5/5 and X number of 4/3s, all with haste, and you have a pair of 2/1s that are swinging in next turn. If you don't win with that, all your Bloodghasts are going to get haste very soon, and multiple hasted Bloodghasts have a tendency to win games against any deck.
If you don't know how something works, how can you possibly expect to improve it?