@Baxter- Yeah, Liliana's ult isn't worth anything. But her first two abilities are back-breaking. Gideon is good, but he performs a different function. Gideon wins games, Liliana allows us to win games. She's also underrated. Most people will burn their O-Rings on Gideon, by which point, he's already done the job he's supposed to do of messing up the opponent severely.
@All- How would you guys recommend fitting in Grim Disco and Gargoyle Castle into this deck?
@Baxter- Yeah, Liliana's ult isn't worth anything. But her first two abilities are back-breaking. Gideon is good, but he performs a different function. Gideon wins games, Liliana allows us to win games. She's also underrated. Most people will burn their O-Rings on Gideon, by which point, he's already done the job he's supposed to do of messing up the opponent severely.
@All- How would you guys recommend fitting in Grim Disco and Gargoyle Castle into this deck?
I pull tech edge for castle. And run a 2/2 split of sign and discovery
I dislike both castle, and grim discovery. I'd much rather pull a tec edge over a colorless land that gives me a 3/4, and I'd much rather pull more control over something that ups my land count and gives me another beater (That i have to cast.)
Hm, I like Grim Disco because it helps ease the mana curve early game, in the wake of a fetch, and give me the option of playing a creature early in the face of removal because I can snag him back. Grim Discovery is a House of Card(s) Advantage. *Oh lord, terrible pun* I don't know what to take out for it just yet, but I'm considering it heavily. Definitely not over SiB, though. SiB is incredibly necessary in a deck light on card draw.
One or two Gargoyle Castles are also really good with Grim Disco. You can fetch the land back, and make another dude. Seems good, if you're also grabbing BSA or Persecutor.
Gargoyle castle is probably one of the worst man-lands you could run. It requires 5 mana to activate, costs you the land and is susceptible to ALL forms of removal, instant and sorcery speed.
Grim Discovery is excellent CA. It can work to ease the pain of a blightning, mana fix (specially in BW builds that have two particularly heavy requirement colors) return a beater and in certain respects return removal if you are running gatekeepers or fleshbag marauders. The best part is its semi controllable. If you are running 6 to 8 fetch lands you will almost always get 2 for 1 back. They should never replace pure draw, like SiB or even Survival Cache but 2 to 3 often work out very well.
@Genra- Run Gideon Jura over Fleshbag Maurader. Without Persecutor, Fleshbag is just bad. You need more Path to Exile, and I'd recommend getting Day of judgment, but Day doesn't work with Sculler, so you'll have to decide which plays better for the deck you want to run. Your model looks a bit more like Abyssal Baneslayer, which is a more mid-range deck, and you might get more from checking out the topic for that. My list is the opening post is the heaviest control-style build you'll find. If you want a deck like that, say the word, and we'll get you to start moving your deck in that direction. I'd still recommend you check out Ab Slayer though.
@Aryakin- Looking at the current OP, how would you fit Grim Disco into the mainboard?
thx giuseppe. I was afraid I was in the wrong thread. I will search out Ab slayer. athough, depending on next FNM, I may feel compelled to try the more heavier control build in the future. (Now I have to figure out if I can remove my list lol)
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Personally the list in the OP isn't really suited for grim disco as you don't have enough creatures to make sure its a 2 for 1 advantage, It would almost seem like survival cache might perform better in that instance even though it may also be situation 2 for 1.
If you wanted to include it anyway I would probably only add 2 in place of O ring or Mind rot. Mind rot needs to be played aggressively to be worth it. You want to have it in hand when its relevant so my bet would be to drop those over Oring. Alternatively why not drop gideon down to a 1 of that is tutor-able with liliana?
If you list DOES end up using grim disco, alter your land like this
-2 kabira crossroads
-1 Swamp
-1 plains
+2 Evolving Wilds
+2 Terramorphic Expanse
It would increase the chance of ensuring you have the right colors at the right time, and that when you do play grim disc you can grab at least 1 land with it.
Gargoyle castle is probably one of the worst man-lands you could run. It requires 5 mana to activate, costs you the land and is susceptible to ALL forms of removal, instant and sorcery speed.
This is completely false. Late game Castle is strictly better. Because it does stay, and you can make it at the end of there turn so it has haste. Yes it dies to everything, but it allows you to continue to play your deck where as man lands are the man land or your hand. most of the time the gargoyle stays because they keep having to deal with percy or BSA.
Also, Survival Cashe very rarely works in this deck. Its just 4 life for 2 cards and its dumb. The point you need CA most it fails in. I wouldn't run it. You could run GD in place of Mind Rot its just a more defensive spell. I fully disagree GD needs to be run because of your lack of creatures. You only have so many Baneslayers/Persectors.. I find it more effective pulling from my grave yard than wasting my top deck hoping for a effective beater.
I do think you should get rid of the crossroads tho 2 life is not worth a cipt land..
Why does no one run bloodghast the recursion is stupid good. and with elspeth its a 5/4..
You cannot use the term "strictly better" when comparing the two as there will ALWAYS be variables when comparing the two.
Gargoyle Castle pros: single investment, the token can shrug off a bolt.
Dread Statuary: You do not lose the land until the creature is killed, dodges ALL sorcery speed forms of removal (including jaces bounce ability and gideons royal assassin ability)
I'm sorry but saying GC is "strictly better" than DS is completely incorrect. I prefer the one that is more resilient to removal and is less likely to short me a land.
As for survival cache sure i'm still testing mine out so i'm not sure if its going to make the cut, but the OP is running baneslayers and already has a set of sign in blood. the only real options we have for additional CA is survival cache and grim discovery... however only 8 creatures and 4 fetch lands will leave the OP often enough looking at a dead card or 1 for 1 CA. Unless he trades in more deck slots for removal with legs or more beaters and then alters his lands to include more fetch lands (or tectonic edges) GD will perform sub par making the only other option survival cache. (casting a survival cache second main phase after BSA connects will most assuredly net you 2 cards)
You cannot use the term "strictly better" when comparing the two as there will ALWAYS be variables when comparing the two.
Gargoyle Castle pros: single investment, the token can shrug off a bolt.
Dread Statuary: You do not lose the land until the creature is killed, dodges ALL sorcery speed forms of removal (including jaces bounce ability and gideons royal assassin ability)
Would agree if it was any other land, dodging sorcery speed removal is nice. But it dying to literally everything (path, burst, bolt, doomblade) only makes it slightly better and it not having flying just dooms it. The point when you use the man lands is late game. gargoyle allows you to leave mana open for instants, but if not needed make a creature.. and it is able to attack or block that turn as well. Its just better. Test it before you knock it. I have extensively tested both and dread statuary doesn't make the cut.
=p btw no one uses royal assassin. anddd royal assassin can kill man lands..
um... btw the "gideon's royal assassin ability" was refering to his second ability that destroys a tapped creature.
I have tested both and i have to say i've always been more happy with dread statuary. During my testing with the castle most of the time i couldn't afford to really utilize it as much as i wanted BECAUSE it was vulnerable after its initial attack. I typically use my man lands as preasure in the sense that i COULD activate it (forcing ppl to hold back removal, or blockers) something that you really can't do with the castle as its presence on the field isn't as daunting early. Sure i may not actually use it but people have to play around it, where as the castle... people don't need to really play around it until much MUCH later in the game.
To each his own but frankly I think there is a reason the MBC list that went 4th at nationals or whatever used dread statuary over the castle.
I don't really know if claiming any deck that isn't jund makes it to top 4 by luck, is a solid argument. Personally i think it made it that far based on utilizing a few things many people seem to over look
something like 8 first strikers vs aggro decks, up to 8 pro white creatures vs the inevitable u/w control and to help restrict the use some of the best removal spells in the game as well as the awesome card advantage of mind sludge and power of tendrils.
I would most definately try to apply most of the above to the B/W variant i'm trying to run, but i'm going to have to play test a bit further to see if all of the double B symbols can be utilized.
Still testing the usefulness of the Vampire Assassin, but he seems pretty good so far. Had one out and it kept my opponent from playing any of his lower toughness cards, so I was able to control his big guys and not have to worry about leaving behind a puny straggler, and by the time he started drawing his beaters, I had two out, and not much can handle -8/-8... I find Drana to be a much better beater than the Bloodchief, but the Bloodchief is still sideboarded because she literally cheats in standard. Might find a place mainboard for her, perhaps -1 duress, -1 Haunting echoes, +2 Bloodchief. I wasn't feeling the love for Grim Disco Party. There just aren't enough beaters or fetch's in my deck to make it a worth while card, so it felt like a dead draw later game. I'd much rather pull another Sweep or Spot Removal. What do you guys think of this new set up?
I am not too sure if I should keep in Grim Discovery or not, and am trying to find replacements for World Queller(Baneslayer or Battlegrace). Besides that, I am not too sure what adjustments I should make with this deck. Maybe throw in some more early drops, like the Assassin?
yeah, I don't like the world queller. I like the assassin, because he can be a 4/4 beater, or a double disfigure, which helps quite a bit. But I also like Batman (Nighthawk) quite a bit. I almost see him as a form of control, people keep from attacking, because I'll just gain two life, and they'll lose their creature. That would be an easy way to fill that spot from the queller.
Hmmm, I will give that a try, both the assassin and the Nighthawk in his place, but we will see. But what do you think about Grim Discovery? Take them out for another CA spell/everflowing chalice or put in more control/beaters?
Hmmm, I will give that a try, both the assassin and the Nighthawk in his place, but we will see. But what do you think about Grim Discovery? Take them out for another CA spell/everflowing chalice or put in more control/beaters?
I think if you do 2 Abyssal, 2 Angel ladies, and 2 nighthawks (Or assassins if you choose) should be decent. I dislike grim discovery because it reads like this for this deck. "Draw a card you don't really need, tap 3, possible single land ramp (If it's fetch, lose 1 life.), and possibly pull back a beater." Personally I'd rather have another day, or path, not another beater. So I kept grim disco out, added a decent amount of beaters, and kept my control portion as high as possible. Most games I don't have a need to play grim disco, and when i tried it, it ended up sitting in my hand for 3-4 turns to the point where i used it to pull back an Evolving Wilds... If you're looking for a BW midrange approach, which some in this thread are, (Kinda) then yeah, sounds good, but for a more control oriented variant, it just doesn't fit.
Edit: Alas, for lack of the right cards, i've had to make these changes so my deck fits for FNM.
Heehee, I got two promo days and 2 foil(so shiny.....). But I wish I had Haunting Echoes though, it really seems to wreck control decks(which I hate the most, those jerks running stuff to control the field, how dare they!). I am really on the fence for Consume the Meek though, mostly because we have access to day, and because I don't have any. But are there any great situations that the instant part really crushes the opponent? I also really don't like it comes out a turn later. So how has it been for you?
Heehee, I got two promo days and 2 foil(so shiny.....). But I wish I had Haunting Echoes though, it really seems to wreck control decks(which I hate the most, those jerks running stuff to control the field, how dare they!). I am really on the fence for Consume the Meek though, mostly because we have access to day, and because I don't have any. But are there any great situations that the instant part really crushes the opponent? I also really don't like it comes out a turn later. So how has it been for you?
Well, me Vs. RDW played abyssal turn 4, he put out some rabble, don't quite remember, turn 5 I left all my lands open, RDW proceded to play 3 creatures with haste, able to do 16 damage with me blocking the highest bidder. I was at 14 life. I looked at the board, looked at my hand, looked at him, he said "GG" I said. "Oops, Consume the Meek."
He raged. Hard.
Needless to say when you blow up all the good RDW creatures their deck studders for a bit, then looses to itself. So yeah, it works to some decks, but I'd never turn down a day so I could board in CtM.
RDW is by far the easiest for this deck tho. Every RDW player i have played (including 1k and 5k's) i have absolutely raped. A wall/single removal and a persector or BSA completely shut down RDW. CtM isn't needed.
I have to agree with that, someone at my FNM stopped playing RDW after I completely destroyed him friday before last(I almost didn't even need to SB).
I did okay last night at my FNM, got 6th place out of 19 people. I mostly faced homebrews(one of them being land destruction/disruption, kept me off of either 2 black and 2 white both games). Hopefully I can actually start testing it out against some U/W control and Jund next FNM. Any tips on what I should change with my deck?
I am not too sure about 4 Gideon, pretty positive I should bump it down to 3. The one world queller is in there for a battlegrace/baneslayer replacement, while everything else is as it should be(in my opinion). Any ideas? Kinda wanting to throw in Haunting Echoes.
@All- How would you guys recommend fitting in Grim Disco and Gargoyle Castle into this deck?
UHigh TideU
EDH:
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrentUG
I pull tech edge for castle. And run a 2/2 split of sign and discovery
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
One or two Gargoyle Castles are also really good with Grim Disco. You can fetch the land back, and make another dude. Seems good, if you're also grabbing BSA or Persecutor.
UHigh TideU
EDH:
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrentUG
Grim Discovery is excellent CA. It can work to ease the pain of a blightning, mana fix (specially in BW builds that have two particularly heavy requirement colors) return a beater and in certain respects return removal if you are running gatekeepers or fleshbag marauders. The best part is its semi controllable. If you are running 6 to 8 fetch lands you will almost always get 2 for 1 back. They should never replace pure draw, like SiB or even Survival Cache but 2 to 3 often work out very well.
@Aryakin- Looking at the current OP, how would you fit Grim Disco into the mainboard?
UHigh TideU
EDH:
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrentUG
Check out NoShyfts, the webcomic that I illustrate for!
GUPrime Speaker ZeganaGU
GGG Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger GGG
GWB Teneb, the Harvester GWB
If you wanted to include it anyway I would probably only add 2 in place of O ring or Mind rot. Mind rot needs to be played aggressively to be worth it. You want to have it in hand when its relevant so my bet would be to drop those over Oring. Alternatively why not drop gideon down to a 1 of that is tutor-able with liliana?
If you list DOES end up using grim disco, alter your land like this
-2 kabira crossroads
-1 Swamp
-1 plains
+2 Evolving Wilds
+2 Terramorphic Expanse
It would increase the chance of ensuring you have the right colors at the right time, and that when you do play grim disc you can grab at least 1 land with it.
This is completely false. Late game Castle is strictly better. Because it does stay, and you can make it at the end of there turn so it has haste. Yes it dies to everything, but it allows you to continue to play your deck where as man lands are the man land or your hand. most of the time the gargoyle stays because they keep having to deal with percy or BSA.
Also, Survival Cashe very rarely works in this deck. Its just 4 life for 2 cards and its dumb. The point you need CA most it fails in. I wouldn't run it. You could run GD in place of Mind Rot its just a more defensive spell. I fully disagree GD needs to be run because of your lack of creatures. You only have so many Baneslayers/Persectors.. I find it more effective pulling from my grave yard than wasting my top deck hoping for a effective beater.
I do think you should get rid of the crossroads tho 2 life is not worth a cipt land..
Why does no one run bloodghast the recursion is stupid good. and with elspeth its a 5/4..
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
Yes, I think I'm going to take out Mind Rot for Grim Disco. We're not running enough discard to play it effectively.
*Goes off to update the OP*
UHigh TideU
EDH:
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrentUG
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
Gargoyle Castle pros: single investment, the token can shrug off a bolt.
Dread Statuary: You do not lose the land until the creature is killed, dodges ALL sorcery speed forms of removal (including jaces bounce ability and gideons royal assassin ability)
I'm sorry but saying GC is "strictly better" than DS is completely incorrect. I prefer the one that is more resilient to removal and is less likely to short me a land.
As for survival cache sure i'm still testing mine out so i'm not sure if its going to make the cut, but the OP is running baneslayers and already has a set of sign in blood. the only real options we have for additional CA is survival cache and grim discovery... however only 8 creatures and 4 fetch lands will leave the OP often enough looking at a dead card or 1 for 1 CA. Unless he trades in more deck slots for removal with legs or more beaters and then alters his lands to include more fetch lands (or tectonic edges) GD will perform sub par making the only other option survival cache. (casting a survival cache second main phase after BSA connects will most assuredly net you 2 cards)
Would agree if it was any other land, dodging sorcery speed removal is nice. But it dying to literally everything (path, burst, bolt, doomblade) only makes it slightly better and it not having flying just dooms it. The point when you use the man lands is late game. gargoyle allows you to leave mana open for instants, but if not needed make a creature.. and it is able to attack or block that turn as well. Its just better. Test it before you knock it. I have extensively tested both and dread statuary doesn't make the cut.
=p btw no one uses royal assassin. anddd royal assassin can kill man lands..
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
I have tested both and i have to say i've always been more happy with dread statuary. During my testing with the castle most of the time i couldn't afford to really utilize it as much as i wanted BECAUSE it was vulnerable after its initial attack. I typically use my man lands as preasure in the sense that i COULD activate it (forcing ppl to hold back removal, or blockers) something that you really can't do with the castle as its presence on the field isn't as daunting early. Sure i may not actually use it but people have to play around it, where as the castle... people don't need to really play around it until much MUCH later in the game.
To each his own but frankly I think there is a reason the MBC list that went 4th at nationals or whatever used dread statuary over the castle.
Alright. And for you Dread may work. I just prefer the castle. Castle is also alot better with Grim discovery because it sacrifices the land.
And MBC made it there by luck not because it was that epic of a deck, so thats really not that great of an argument.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
something like 8 first strikers vs aggro decks, up to 8 pro white creatures vs the inevitable u/w control and to help restrict the use some of the best removal spells in the game as well as the awesome card advantage of mind sludge and power of tendrils.
I would most definately try to apply most of the above to the B/W variant i'm trying to run, but i'm going to have to play test a bit further to see if all of the double B symbols can be utilized.
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Wall of Omens
2 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
2 Guul Draz Assassin
3 Duress
2 Mind Rot
3 Day of Judgment
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Sign in Blood
3 Consuming Vapors
3 Path to Exile
2 Liliana Vess
8 Plains
9 Swamp
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Vampire Hexmage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Celestial Purge
3 Deathmark
2 Consume the Meek
Still testing the usefulness of the Vampire Assassin, but he seems pretty good so far. Had one out and it kept my opponent from playing any of his lower toughness cards, so I was able to control his big guys and not have to worry about leaving behind a puny straggler, and by the time he started drawing his beaters, I had two out, and not much can handle -8/-8... I find Drana to be a much better beater than the Bloodchief, but the Bloodchief is still sideboarded because she literally cheats in standard. Might find a place mainboard for her, perhaps -1 duress, -1 Haunting echoes, +2 Bloodchief. I wasn't feeling the love for Grim Disco Party. There just aren't enough beaters or fetch's in my deck to make it a worth while card, so it felt like a dead draw later game. I'd much rather pull another Sweep or Spot Removal. What do you guys think of this new set up?
(Some of my card choices are due to budget reasons)
3x Abyssal Persecutor
2x World Queller
1x Battlegrace Angel
4x Wall of Omens
3x Gideon Jura
2x Liliana Vess
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Grim Discovery
4x Path to Exile
3x Day of Judgment
3x Consuming Vapors
4x Duress
3x Sign in Blood
1x Dread Sanctuary
1x Gargoyle Castle
9x Swamp
8x Plains
3x Vampire Hexmage
2x Malakir Bloodwitch
2x Pithing Needle
3x Celestial Purge
2x Kor Firewalker
3x Luminarch Ascension
I am not too sure if I should keep in Grim Discovery or not, and am trying to find replacements for World Queller(Baneslayer or Battlegrace). Besides that, I am not too sure what adjustments I should make with this deck. Maybe throw in some more early drops, like the Assassin?
I think if you do 2 Abyssal, 2 Angel ladies, and 2 nighthawks (Or assassins if you choose) should be decent. I dislike grim discovery because it reads like this for this deck. "Draw a card you don't really need, tap 3, possible single land ramp (If it's fetch, lose 1 life.), and possibly pull back a beater." Personally I'd rather have another day, or path, not another beater. So I kept grim disco out, added a decent amount of beaters, and kept my control portion as high as possible. Most games I don't have a need to play grim disco, and when i tried it, it ended up sitting in my hand for 3-4 turns to the point where i used it to pull back an Evolving Wilds... If you're looking for a BW midrange approach, which some in this thread are, (Kinda) then yeah, sounds good, but for a more control oriented variant, it just doesn't fit.
Edit: Alas, for lack of the right cards, i've had to make these changes so my deck fits for FNM.
3 Day of Judgment
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Deathless Angel
1 Transcendent Master
3x Abyssal Persecutor
1x Battlegrace Angel
2x World Queller
2x Guul Draz Assassin
4x Wall of Omens
3x Gideon Jura
With that, I...
-3 Grim Discovery
+1 Sign in Blood
+2 Guul Draz Assassin
Well, me Vs. RDW played abyssal turn 4, he put out some rabble, don't quite remember, turn 5 I left all my lands open, RDW proceded to play 3 creatures with haste, able to do 16 damage with me blocking the highest bidder. I was at 14 life. I looked at the board, looked at my hand, looked at him, he said "GG" I said. "Oops, Consume the Meek."
He raged. Hard.
Needless to say when you blow up all the good RDW creatures their deck studders for a bit, then looses to itself. So yeah, it works to some decks, but I'd never turn down a day so I could board in CtM.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
I did okay last night at my FNM, got 6th place out of 19 people. I mostly faced homebrews(one of them being land destruction/disruption, kept me off of either 2 black and 2 white both games). Hopefully I can actually start testing it out against some U/W control and Jund next FNM. Any tips on what I should change with my deck?
3x Abyssal Persecutor
2x Battlegracer Angel
1x Malakir Bloodwitch
4x Wall of Omens
Instants/Sorceries/Enchantments/Artifacts
3x Consuming Vapors
3x Day of Judgment
3x Duress
2x Everflowing Chalice
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Path to Exile
3x Sign in Blood
2x Haunting Echoes
3x Gideon Jura
2x Liliana Vess
Land
4x Marsh Flats
9x Plains
9x Swamp
1x Dread Sanctuary
1x Gargoyle Castle
I am not too sure about 4 Gideon, pretty positive I should bump it down to 3. The one world queller is in there for a battlegrace/baneslayer replacement, while everything else is as it should be(in my opinion). Any ideas? Kinda wanting to throw in Haunting Echoes.