Why is Jacerator no longer considered even remotely competitive?
Sure, Eldrazi ability to shuffle is annoying, but is it really something the deck cannot handle? I think not.
Well everyone plays jace 2.0 which acts as a sorcery speed removal against your jace. Also, yes a single sideboarded eldrazi ruins all your hopes of milling the other player. Unless your going to run Jace 2.0 to mill with his ultimate or Suffer the Past, your not going to win via milling.
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Quote from thundyr »
Jacerator is an aggro deck - it just wins by attacking the library, it doesn't really control the board other than to play a few Fogs
relic of progenitus springs to mind
Jace 1.0 vs Jace 2.0 works the other way around too... I dont mean to argue or anything , but that reasoning seems somewhat inconsistent to me
Eldrazis slow the deck down perhaps (since you have to have relic of progenitus back-up to win th egame) then again eldrazis are generally not all that quick, so shouldnt that (IN THEORY) be okay?
A good Time Sieve/OTV combo player schooled my UW control deck the other day. It was close to the UWr list...I'm wondering what to do vs. that deck.
Or just let other decks in the meta hate it out...or just play better...but I guess I don't know how, other than to combo the pieces...and that means you have to get lucky CA by turn 5 to have the counter waiting for it.
Don't count out the time-sieve combo.
w/u tapout or any non counter "control" deck for that matter is gonna get rolled by timesieve. you bring in counters game 2/3 and so do they. but they also already have game 1 won. and they play both negate and dispel so you're basically gonna have to hope they draw like garbage. the mu is so bad i've even had some players side in their firewalkers just to try to kill me faster lol.
the problem with time sieve is at least in my experience it loses to RDW pretty badly and jund matchup becomes bad after game 1.
i hope everybody is bad and thinks jund isnt still the best deck.... then time sieve/poly can do some wrecking :).
for those of you who think jund is dead go look at recent magic-league events. alot of pro players play/have played there. such as julien n adam prosak PV (i think lsv played there too)etc etc so dont take the lists their lightly there ARE good players there and alot of tech gets played there before you see it on the PT. such as that 1/2 kor dude being big.
Mythic with or without Conscription
Jund
U/W Tapout Control
U/W/r Planeswalkers
Tier 1.5
Red deck wins and offshoots
Polymorph
U/W Chapin Control
Tier 1.75
Poly/Trap
Summoning Trap
Tier 2
Green Elves/Monster
G/W aggro/midrange
Bossssss Naya
Time Sieve/Open the Vaults/Turbofog
Spread 'Em style decks
Cruel Control
Junk
Tier 8, the Ocho
Infinite mana combo
Decks that try to hardcast Eldrazi
Mono black control
Merfolk
Goblins
Pretty much dead on, but I have a feeling Mythic might be bumped down to tier 1.5 depending on how many people can actually afford team america.
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I still think jund is the only true tier 1 deck and people are just sick of it so we are seeing other decks.
I think I can pay 1G to regenerate you, because you've turned into a troll
Seriously, though: if Jund is the only true tier 1 deck, why does it lose to so many "subpar" decks? It seems that these days it only dominates the field when most of the field is Jund; when the meta's diverse and has lots of aggro, control and combo decks, Jund is just one good deck among several.
I still think jund is the only true tier 1 deck and people are just sick of it so we are seeing other decks.
No offense, but since San Diego PT, Jund has been doing worse and worse. U/W, WW, and all other decks have basically become the Anti Jund, and now Jund is struggling to defeat decks it so previously steam rolled. Honestly when I see jund and I'm playing WW (Soon to be RDW), I laugh silently in my head, and proccede to generally win game one, and easily move on and win game two/three.
Are you joking? Tapout pretty much beats jund, which the chapin versions of the deck don't. At all. They're better against the mirror and random combo decks...well, time seive/OTV. But they are much worse against the entire rest of the format.
Have you played both decks with Jund? I've steamrolled the tapout version with my Jund every time I've played it, haven't even lost to it once, and I have maybe a 40-60 win/lose ratio against the counterspells when I play against it.
No offense, but since San Diego PT, Jund has been doing worse and worse. U/W, WW, and all other decks have basically become the Anti Jund, and now Jund is struggling to defeat decks it so previously steam rolled. Honestly when I see jund and I'm playing WW (Soon to be RDW), I laugh silently in my head, and proccede to generally win game one, and easily move on and win game two/three.
The top dog to beat is no longer jund. Its U/W.
I'm a Jund player and I have two WW decks and 3 RDW decks in my meta and I hardly lose to them, although I am playing Jund with Hellspark Elemental and Hell's Thunder both decks seem to have a problem with Unearth cards and I beat the regular Jund list because I don't always care about Blightning. I also went 3/3 split with Momentous Fall and BBE to gain a ton of CA from my Unearth guys.
The only decks my list has need of a SB against is U/W control and Planeswalker.dec.
I still also have the best win percentage in my area so I am pretty sure that Jund is still the best deck but there are some seriously good decks and people can really surprise a meta by taking just about anything they want and potentially take the day from surprise factor and wise deckbuilding/meta decking.
I think I can pay 1G to regenerate you, because you've turned into a troll
Seriously, though: if Jund is the only true tier 1 deck, why does it lose to so many "subpar" decks? It seems that these days it only dominates the field when most of the field is Jund; when the meta's diverse and has lots of aggro, control and combo decks, Jund is just one good deck among several.
I think the "troll" is right. People just see Jund lose to rogue or other T1 decks at their FNMs and immediately assume that it's going down the tubes. It loses to "subpar" decks because it's piloted by so many legitimately subpar players.
Jund is not going anywhere till it rotates.
It is and has been called the best deck in the format for good reason. When Jund pulls an unbelievable win out of nowhere, my fellow FNMers have nothing to say but "Jund is so stupid." And it IS - it manages to consistently prove itself INconsistent (in a good way) by thwarting strategies specifically formulated to beat it. What other deck does this passively?
Jund doesn't even have to mess with its board to win vs. its "bad" matchups - it just has to hit land drops, remove large early threats, and Bloodbraid into Blightning. The new decks that are considered T1 have more than a few obvious weaknesses that are glaringly difficult to play around. Jund has MAINDECKED answers to almost every card that is considered "Jund hate," and has discard as an answer to the rest.
No offense, but since San Diego PT, Jund has been doing worse and worse. U/W, WW, and all other decks have basically become the Anti Jund, and now Jund is struggling to defeat decks it so previously steam rolled. Honestly when I see jund and I'm playing WW (Soon to be RDW), I laugh silently in my head, and proccede to generally win game one, and easily move on and win game two/three.
The top dog to beat is no longer jund. Its U/W.
even if you believe Wu is better than jund (i dont think it is) you kindof have to be able to beat jund AND Wu varients. its more like top dogs not top dog. because beating Wu is ridiculously easy compared to jund. problem is alot of those decks that whip Wu lose to jund.
you also have to realize jund isnt teching against control main deck AT ALL. while all the control decks pretty much are. spreading seas is pretty much mainly for the jund matchup. and while path and oblivion stone are good overall theyre moreso strong against jund because of things like thrinax.
I'm a Jund player and I have two WW decks and 3 RDW decks in my meta and I hardly lose to them, although I am playing Jund with Hellspark Elemental and Hell's Thunder both decks seem to have a problem with Unearth cards and I beat the regular Jund list because I don't always care about Blightning. I also went 3/3 split with Momentous Fall and BBE to gain a ton of CA from my Unearth guys.
No offense and all I find it hard to believe that you constantly beat WW. With over a dozen cards that thwart jund's staratgey I find it really hard to beleive that you "hardly" lose. Perhaps its just your meta.
No offense and all I find it hard to believe that you constantly beat WW. With over a dozen cards that thwart jund's staratgey I find it really hard to beleive that you "hardly" lose. Perhaps its just your meta.
jund can definitely beat WW...
i know i've raged a few times on magic online because jund basically draws bolts for all my knights and pulse for my firewalkers.
i know i've raged a few times on magic online because jund basically draws bolts for all my knights and pulse for my firewalkers.
As well as Terminate for BSAs if they are running them and Pithing Needles from the board for Ajani and the equipment if they are running a Stoneforge Mystic package.
The counterspell version can keep up with Jund by 1-for-1ing them with counterspells long enough to make them run out of steam
Are you joking? You think a good gameplan against Jund is to trade cards with them 1-for-1? That's exactly how Jund beats you..
People are really going crazy over this Planeswalker deck, heralding it as the second coming of Christ or something. Can people not see that it's a normal UW list with Ajani Vengeant splashed? There's nothing amazing and innovative about it that suddenly shakes up the meta. It's one card. That's it. There's such a rediculous amount of hype surrounding this deck, and such high expectations placed on it to destroy everything in the meta because it won a FIVE K event.
People are going to be sorely surprised when they realise that it's just another UW deck that has its splash completely shut off by a single Spreading Seas.
i agree, some decks seem over hyped, i get to play them a lot in my area. they are pretty good, but they also seem to be mostly aimed at beating jund still. probably less so in my area as most players in my area got bored of playing jund, except for the few dicks who have to win everytime, so they did the next big thing like American Walkers (U/Wr Planeswalkers).
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No offense and all I find it hard to believe that you constantly beat WW. With over a dozen cards that thwart jund's staratgey I find it really hard to beleive that you "hardly" lose. Perhaps its just your meta.
White weenie's guys are really just too small for jund to care. They also can't generate much CA or disrupt jund outside of having prot. dudes, which are outclassed/removed pretty quickly.
I would say Tier One is still Jund and Jund alone. 1.5 are Gladiators, Chapin, and UW Tapout. 2 are Mythic and AiR. 2.5 is Naya. 3 and below are Vampires and all the other crappy pet decks people bring to big tournaments.
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I would say Tier One is still Jund and Jund alone. 1.5 are Gladiators, Chapin, and UW Tapout. 2 are Mythic and AiR. 2.5 is Naya. 3 and below are Vampires and all the other crappy pet decks people bring to big tournaments.
Pretty much this. People are so focussed on the fact there's non-Jund decks winning tournaments (and instantly calling them the next deck to beat), that they don't realise Jund is still making Top 8 placements with an entire meta that has decks tuned to beat it. Jund isn't the top deck just because it's a good deck and wins games. It's the top deck because it wins games against decks that are specifically built to beat it. You can maindeck as much Jund hate as you want, they can still steal the game from you with a couple of lucky cascades.
That is why Jund will be the top deck until rotation.
People are really going crazy over this Planeswalker deck, heralding it as the second coming of Christ or something. Can people not see that it's a normal UW list with Ajani Vengeant splashed? There's nothing amazing and innovative about it that suddenly shakes up the meta. It's one card. That's it. There's such a rediculous amount of hype surrounding this deck, and such high expectations placed on it to destroy everything in the meta because it won a FIVE K event.
People are going to be sorely surprised when they realise that it's just another UW deck that has its splash completely shut off by a single Spreading Seas.
I can see it's a normal list with a Vengent I guess..., I'm sure several others can too. In all fairness it includes 7 new cards. 4 Wall of Omens and 3 Gideons. It would be dishonest to say those cards haven't made an impact on standard. Plus the dude used 3 of each walker and no counters....AND 4 paths mb.
Come to think of it, the deck does seem innovative from my perspective. To each his own I guess.
As for the spreading seas. Yes, it does shut down Vengent. It only shuts down three cards. Maybe less depending on how many Vengents had been cast. Regardless, the deck will have it's +1 -1's and will evolve.
In all fairness it includes 7 new cards. 4 Wall of Omens and 3 Gideons. It would be dishonest to say those cards haven't made an impact on standard. Plus the dude used 3 of each walker and no counters....AND 4 paths mb.
Straight UW lists have added those cards as well. I wasn't saying that UWr = pre-RoE UW with Vengeant added in. I was saying it was current UW + Vengeant. Which, it is
Regardless, the deck will have it's +1 -1's and will evolve.
This, however, is true. The deck in its current form is simply UW + Vengeant, so there's far, far too much hype surrounding something that's barely a change from an existing deck. I'm sure it will go through changes to improve it and take it further from a straight UW list, but whether or not those changes actually improve the deck remain to be seen, and tested.
As an aside, I'm not trying to say that the UWr deck is bad. I'm just saying that people are getting way too excited about an already existing deck with a splash, just because it won a 5k event.
Just to clarify, you don't want to Spreading Seas the Mountain if they have a Colonnade out, and plus they could just run another Mountain. Oh and they also aren't going to fetch until they need to play an Ajani.
Just to clarify, you don't want to Spreading Seas the Mountain if they have a Colonnade out, and plus they could just run another Mountain. Oh and they also aren't going to fetch until they need to play an Ajani.
This is obviously true; but there are times where they will draw the mountain and need a land drop, with no alternative option, and boom there it is. Not that it will occur frequently.
I've still had good results with Spreading Seas locking out the WW required for DoJ.
This is obviously true; but there are times where they will draw the mountain and need a land drop, with no alternative option, and boom there it is. Not that it will occur frequently.
I've still had good results with Spreading Seas locking out the WW required for DoJ.
Yeah, exactly, it's a situational thing. Knocking out the mountain can sometimes beneficial, but it can also be a waste of time. Conversely, you can keep them off W sources slightly easier than a straight UW build, to give them grief trying to cast Gideon/Elspeth/DoJ, but then allow them to drop an Ajani on you.
Still, I'm going to enjoy "Seas your Colonnade" leaving them with an Island, a Seas'd Colennade, and a Scalding Tarn. Especially if they untap and drop a Fortress for me to Tec Edge; it's just too bad you can't respond to them saccing for a mountain
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Well everyone plays jace 2.0 which acts as a sorcery speed removal against your jace. Also, yes a single sideboarded eldrazi ruins all your hopes of milling the other player. Unless your going to run Jace 2.0 to mill with his ultimate or Suffer the Past, your not going to win via milling.
Jace 1.0 vs Jace 2.0 works the other way around too... I dont mean to argue or anything , but that reasoning seems somewhat inconsistent to me
Eldrazis slow the deck down perhaps (since you have to have relic of progenitus back-up to win th egame) then again eldrazis are generally not all that quick, so shouldnt that (IN THEORY) be okay?
Modern: Storm
w/u tapout or any non counter "control" deck for that matter is gonna get rolled by timesieve. you bring in counters game 2/3 and so do they. but they also already have game 1 won. and they play both negate and dispel so you're basically gonna have to hope they draw like garbage. the mu is so bad i've even had some players side in their firewalkers just to try to kill me faster lol.
the problem with time sieve is at least in my experience it loses to RDW pretty badly and jund matchup becomes bad after game 1.
i hope everybody is bad and thinks jund isnt still the best deck.... then time sieve/poly can do some wrecking :).
for those of you who think jund is dead go look at recent magic-league events. alot of pro players play/have played there. such as julien n adam prosak PV (i think lsv played there too)etc etc so dont take the lists their lightly there ARE good players there and alot of tech gets played there before you see it on the PT. such as that 1/2 kor dude being big.
Pretty much dead on, but I have a feeling Mythic might be bumped down to tier 1.5 depending on how many people can actually afford team america.
theres no good way to bait counters since everything worth countering is at sorcery speed. :/
im gonna try out alot of the new decks in deck development then if they turn out to be junk i guess ill have to forfeit and run Wur
I think I can pay 1G to regenerate you, because you've turned into a troll
Seriously, though: if Jund is the only true tier 1 deck, why does it lose to so many "subpar" decks? It seems that these days it only dominates the field when most of the field is Jund; when the meta's diverse and has lots of aggro, control and combo decks, Jund is just one good deck among several.
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.
No offense, but since San Diego PT, Jund has been doing worse and worse. U/W, WW, and all other decks have basically become the Anti Jund, and now Jund is struggling to defeat decks it so previously steam rolled. Honestly when I see jund and I'm playing WW (Soon to be RDW), I laugh silently in my head, and proccede to generally win game one, and easily move on and win game two/three.
The top dog to beat is no longer jund. Its U/W.
Standard
WUW/U HumansUW
Modern
WBW/B TokensBW
Have you played both decks with Jund? I've steamrolled the tapout version with my Jund every time I've played it, haven't even lost to it once, and I have maybe a 40-60 win/lose ratio against the counterspells when I play against it.
I'm a Jund player and I have two WW decks and 3 RDW decks in my meta and I hardly lose to them, although I am playing Jund with Hellspark Elemental and Hell's Thunder both decks seem to have a problem with Unearth cards and I beat the regular Jund list because I don't always care about Blightning. I also went 3/3 split with Momentous Fall and BBE to gain a ton of CA from my Unearth guys.
The only decks my list has need of a SB against is U/W control and Planeswalker.dec.
I still also have the best win percentage in my area so I am pretty sure that Jund is still the best deck but there are some seriously good decks and people can really surprise a meta by taking just about anything they want and potentially take the day from surprise factor and wise deckbuilding/meta decking.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186
I think the "troll" is right. People just see Jund lose to rogue or other T1 decks at their FNMs and immediately assume that it's going down the tubes. It loses to "subpar" decks because it's piloted by so many legitimately subpar players.
Jund is not going anywhere till it rotates.
It is and has been called the best deck in the format for good reason. When Jund pulls an unbelievable win out of nowhere, my fellow FNMers have nothing to say but "Jund is so stupid." And it IS - it manages to consistently prove itself INconsistent (in a good way) by thwarting strategies specifically formulated to beat it. What other deck does this passively?
Jund doesn't even have to mess with its board to win vs. its "bad" matchups - it just has to hit land drops, remove large early threats, and Bloodbraid into Blightning. The new decks that are considered T1 have more than a few obvious weaknesses that are glaringly difficult to play around. Jund has MAINDECKED answers to almost every card that is considered "Jund hate," and has discard as an answer to the rest.
even if you believe Wu is better than jund (i dont think it is) you kindof have to be able to beat jund AND Wu varients. its more like top dogs not top dog. because beating Wu is ridiculously easy compared to jund. problem is alot of those decks that whip Wu lose to jund.
you also have to realize jund isnt teching against control main deck AT ALL. while all the control decks pretty much are. spreading seas is pretty much mainly for the jund matchup. and while path and oblivion stone are good overall theyre moreso strong against jund because of things like thrinax.
No offense and all I find it hard to believe that you constantly beat WW. With over a dozen cards that thwart jund's staratgey I find it really hard to beleive that you "hardly" lose. Perhaps its just your meta.
Standard
WUW/U HumansUW
Modern
WBW/B TokensBW
jund can definitely beat WW...
i know i've raged a few times on magic online because jund basically draws bolts for all my knights and pulse for my firewalkers.
As well as Terminate for BSAs if they are running them and Pithing Needles from the board for Ajani and the equipment if they are running a Stoneforge Mystic package.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186
Are you joking? You think a good gameplan against Jund is to trade cards with them 1-for-1? That's exactly how Jund beats you..
People are really going crazy over this Planeswalker deck, heralding it as the second coming of Christ or something. Can people not see that it's a normal UW list with Ajani Vengeant splashed? There's nothing amazing and innovative about it that suddenly shakes up the meta. It's one card. That's it. There's such a rediculous amount of hype surrounding this deck, and such high expectations placed on it to destroy everything in the meta because it won a FIVE K event.
People are going to be sorely surprised when they realise that it's just another UW deck that has its splash completely shut off by a single Spreading Seas.
White weenie's guys are really just too small for jund to care. They also can't generate much CA or disrupt jund outside of having prot. dudes, which are outclassed/removed pretty quickly.
40% Jund
30% UWx variants, including Gladiators
15% Mythic variants
10% RDW/AiR
5% rogue
I would say Tier One is still Jund and Jund alone. 1.5 are Gladiators, Chapin, and UW Tapout. 2 are Mythic and AiR. 2.5 is Naya. 3 and below are Vampires and all the other crappy pet decks people bring to big tournaments.
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Pretty much this. People are so focussed on the fact there's non-Jund decks winning tournaments (and instantly calling them the next deck to beat), that they don't realise Jund is still making Top 8 placements with an entire meta that has decks tuned to beat it. Jund isn't the top deck just because it's a good deck and wins games. It's the top deck because it wins games against decks that are specifically built to beat it. You can maindeck as much Jund hate as you want, they can still steal the game from you with a couple of lucky cascades.
That is why Jund will be the top deck until rotation.
I can see it's a normal list with a Vengent I guess..., I'm sure several others can too. In all fairness it includes 7 new cards. 4 Wall of Omens and 3 Gideons. It would be dishonest to say those cards haven't made an impact on standard. Plus the dude used 3 of each walker and no counters....AND 4 paths mb.
Come to think of it, the deck does seem innovative from my perspective. To each his own I guess.
As for the spreading seas. Yes, it does shut down Vengent. It only shuts down three cards. Maybe less depending on how many Vengents had been cast. Regardless, the deck will have it's +1 -1's and will evolve.
Tl:dr UW/r Plainwalkerz pwnz u.
Straight UW lists have added those cards as well. I wasn't saying that UWr = pre-RoE UW with Vengeant added in. I was saying it was current UW + Vengeant. Which, it is
This, however, is true. The deck in its current form is simply UW + Vengeant, so there's far, far too much hype surrounding something that's barely a change from an existing deck. I'm sure it will go through changes to improve it and take it further from a straight UW list, but whether or not those changes actually improve the deck remain to be seen, and tested.
As an aside, I'm not trying to say that the UWr deck is bad. I'm just saying that people are getting way too excited about an already existing deck with a splash, just because it won a 5k event.
This is obviously true; but there are times where they will draw the mountain and need a land drop, with no alternative option, and boom there it is. Not that it will occur frequently.
I've still had good results with Spreading Seas locking out the WW required for DoJ.
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Yeah, exactly, it's a situational thing. Knocking out the mountain can sometimes beneficial, but it can also be a waste of time. Conversely, you can keep them off W sources slightly easier than a straight UW build, to give them grief trying to cast Gideon/Elspeth/DoJ, but then allow them to drop an Ajani on you.
Still, I'm going to enjoy "Seas your Colonnade" leaving them with an Island, a Seas'd Colennade, and a Scalding Tarn. Especially if they untap and drop a Fortress for me to Tec Edge; it's just too bad you can't respond to them saccing for a mountain