Jace and Garruk have been all I need to deal with anything that Iona doesn't stop.
Most of my games there is not a whole lot on the board to worry about post Iona, because they either tap out early casting threats allowing me an early poly, or they hold back keeping mana open for token removal.
You're playing against bad players. There are 2 ways to beat this deck with Iona, win the "don't let polymorph resolve war" or you go balls out aggro. If you're a mono-colored deck , or UW control you play the first option. but that doesn't mean do nothing, you can still apply pressure without giving polymorph a opening to go off. RDW does this with a turn 1 goblin guide. and the occasional hellspark. once they have lots of mana + burn they start to throw things into your face from the bottom of their hand, your only recourse here is to play your jaces and garruks and force them to use the answers which they have. however you have to do this early and often to boil their hand down. emrakul might be a Ideal game 3 board in if your opponent is playing this way.
Decks like jund and mythic are going to take the aggro route, mythic can flat out kill you just as fast as you can polymorph, and jund has valid threats in red and green and Iona is only naming black. Jace, after turn 4, should simply be considered a 4cc sorcery speed brainstorm or unsummon. you can get him to 5 and maybe fateseal away a pesky Blightning, but he'll die soon after. Garruk isn't a serious threat to these decks (assuming they're operating on best-case scenario just like you're assuming for yourself) and anyone who's attacking into him if they know what you're playing is a bad player.
Question. Can anyone name a circumstance in which Emrakul is better than Progenitus. Hell, the only time I can think of that emrakuls better is when the opponent is at 11-15 life and you really need the 1 turn clock as opposed to the two turn.
The opponent has a board that will kill you if progenitus ever turns sideways to attack. at which point you have to use him as a blocker, however they can just overrun you because they have more than 1 biggerish creature. This Circumstance is fairly commonplace against Jund\Mythic\RDW.
In this case emrakul wrecks their board upon attack, and if they don't have a flyer they take 15, which given how some decks run fetches can actually be lethal.
You're playing against bad players. There are 2 ways to beat this deck with Iona, win the "don't let polymorph resolve war" or you go balls out aggro. If you're a mono-colored deck , or UW control you play the first option. but that doesn't mean do nothing, you can still apply pressure without giving polymorph a opening to go off. RDW does this with a turn 1 goblin guide. and the occasional hellspark. once they have lots of mana + burn they start to throw things into your face from the bottom of their hand, your only recourse here is to play your jaces and garruks and force them to use the answers which they have. however you have to do this early and often to boil their hand down. emrakul might be a Ideal game 3 board in if your opponent is playing this way.
Decks like jund and mythic are going to take the aggro route, mythic can flat out kill you just as fast as you can polymorph, and jund has valid threats in red and green and Iona is only naming black. Jace, after turn 4, should simply be considered a 4cc sorcery speed brainstorm or unsummon. you can get him to 5 and maybe fateseal away a pesky Blightning, but he'll die soon after. Garruk isn't a serious threat to these decks (assuming they're operating on best-case scenario just like you're assuming for yourself) and anyone who's attacking into him if they know what you're playing is a bad player.
Sure Mythic can kill us as fast as we polymorph. What does that have to do with choosing between Iona and Emmy? If we are dead before we can get anything out, then it doesn't matter what is hiding in our deck.
What are the threats in Jund that are green and red that Jace and Garruk cannot answer? Not trying to be argumentative, just wondering what it is that I haven't seen yet. I'm not going to pretend I play against the top players in the world, but they do know what they are doing. And why would you fateseal away a blightning with Iona on the board naming black?
Why would a deck like RDW play any differently against you if you were running Iona over Emmy?
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that there are matchups that Iona may not be the best choice. But I find that, at least in my meta, I am better off with her MB and siding her out if the match calls for it.
Sure Mythic can kill us as fast as we polymorph. What does that have to do with choosing between Iona and Emmy? If we are dead before we can get anything out, then it doesn't matter what is hiding in our deck.
What are the threats in Jund that are green and red that Jace and Garruk cannot answer? Not trying to be argumentative, just wondering what it is that I haven't seen yet. I'm not going to pretend I play against the top players in the world, but they do know what they are doing. And why would you fateseal away a blightning with Iona on the board naming black?
Why would a deck like RDW play any differently against you if you were running Iona over Emmy?
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that there are matchups that Iona may not be the best choice. But I find that, at least in my meta, I am better off with her MB and siding her out if the match calls for it.
Because Emrakul can swing a swingable game better than Iona against mythic. Iona has to chump their now 8/8 knights that can actually get pro white due to the spell land they searched for if they got 2 knights out.
In Jund you have to contend with whatever is on the board, which typically includes a Leech and\or a thrinax. jace, if iona is on the board will stop them from recasting if you bounced them. but Jace doesn't survive well in this deck because you blew your counter protection on iona. then they have bolt\siege-gang commander. and their own garruks if they're still running them. Garruk dies out making 3/3's to block their leaches and thrinaxes with, or trades with BBE. neither planeswalker really survives blightning.
this is ofcourse assuming you didn't combo off on turn 3. a turn 3 combo with either fatty is usually GG. the best decks can hope for at this point is to get off a Fleshbag o-ring or journey. in the case of journey - o-ring into the roil at the end of their turn pretty much wins that game.
the way I've had RDW play against me in testing is game 2, after a turn 4 iona names red and locks them out except for unearth, they side in more burn. and they play it as a Burn-Control matchup. They have more burn than we have counterspells. they know for the first 2 turns they don't have to worry about the combo, so they feel free to roll out whatever they can those first 2 turns (hopefully 2 guides) and then sit there with a hand full of burn, making sure to have mana and cards open to be able to kill the token. the polymorph player in this case has to play a jace and push the issue. but it's a losing proposition, especially if the red player sides in manabarbs. however this playstyle actually does open you up a bit to hardcast emrakul game 3, which is a raping because of the timewarp, then they take 15 and lose 6 lands. you've nutered anything they could have done in retaliation, and if you boarded in fogs you're in great shape to win.
and If your local meta is all vamps, white weenie, or Red deck wins then yes Iona is by far the best choice. but if you're preparing for something like a SCG open you have to prepare for the overall meta, those matchups are better faught with Emmy main.
i have a question. What is Ur opinion about this deck. it can be tier1? bcs i am still thinking, which deck is better and which i should choose. Ther PolyRabbit or UW control....which deck wpould be better in future time...i know this is a stupid question like a newbie but...it is very important to me. thanks for answer.
play UW control it gets alot of good tools in RoE, only thing is it`s very expensive.
In Jund you have to contend with whatever is on the board, which typically includes a Leech and\or a thrinax. jace, if iona is on the board will stop them from recasting if you bounced them. but Jace doesn't survive well in this deck because you blew your counter protection on iona. then they have bolt\siege-gang commander. and their own garruks if they're still running them. Garruk dies out making 3/3's to block their leaches and thrinaxes with, or trades with BBE. neither planeswalker really survives blightning.
the way I've had RDW play against me in testing is game 2, after a turn 4 iona names red and locks them out except for unearth, they side in more burn. and they play it as a Burn-Control matchup. They have more burn than we have counterspells. they know for the first 2 turns they don't have to worry about the combo, so they feel free to roll out whatever they can those first 2 turns (hopefully 2 guides) and then sit there with a hand full of burn, making sure to have mana and cards open to be able to kill the token. the polymorph player in this case has to play a jace and push the issue. but it's a losing proposition, especially if the red player sides in manabarbs. however this playstyle actually does open you up a bit to hardcast emrakul game 3, which is a raping because of the timewarp, then they take 15 and lose 6 lands. you've nutered anything they could have done in retaliation, and if you boarded in fogs you're in great shape to win.
As far as Jund goes, so what if Garruk dies out making chump blockers? You only need 3 turns to win with Iona. I will be glad to let them waste life pumping the leech to gill my Garruk tokens. Also, maybe I run a bit more counters (8 including vines), but I am not scared to block with Iona when I have protection in my hand.
As far as RDW, your example to me seems illogical. When I play against RDW, and they know my deck, they play the same way you exampled above. However, I have never once had a game against RDW where it lasted long enough to be able to hard cast an Emrakul. I either put up enough distraction in Jaces and Garruks that they run out of gas and enter topdeck mode, or they draw enough to kill me while staying safe (not as often as the first situation).
Again, maybe the differences in our decks build and our opponents build (haven't seen Garruk in Jund all that often for example) lead to the different views on MB fatties. All I can say is that in my own personal playing I very rarely morph into Iona and wish it was an Emy game 1.
@ctorres: depends on your meta. For mine, it's definitely Emrakul. Iona dies to Student of Warfare and gets stopped by Baneslayer/Finest Hour or Rafiq/etc. I've had a couple matches where I resolve Polymorph into Iona, and then get to have the fun of chump-blocking with Iona. ... Oh, it's so much fun. [I also didn't have the Emrakuls in the SB that I should've.]
Iona's better against Vamps and possibly RDW, and restricts the opponent's choices, which is nice. Emrakul restricts the opponent's choices by letting you kill them [and all of their permanents].
Also, I love Deprive. A lot. I think I'm running two, but I kind of want to run three. It's a great, great card in this deck.
my mouth is full of winsome lies -
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
@ctorres: depends on your meta. For mine, it's definitely Emrakul. Iona dies to Student of Warfare and gets stopped by Baneslayer/Finest Hour or Rafiq/etc. @.@
Also, I love Deprive. A lot. I think I'm running two, but I kind of want to run three.
i've been testing Deprive for the Atlanta SCG open and It's perfectly fine in the deck as a 3 of.
Iona is the best main-deck creature. It's really not close. Glass, you're making an interesting argument, but sadly, you're wrong.
Iona is just better against the Tier 1 metagame, which is really all we should be discussing here. Seriously, I can maybe advocate a 1/1 split vs Jund, cos both are good, and personally favour Emrakul vs RDW, but other than that it's Iona all the time.
With the rise of UW, I'm even more happy than before with Iona.
Grant
my question here is what are you considering Teir 1
my Teir 1 is Jund, Naya, Mythic, UW control
out of all of those decks I honestly think UW control is the only one where Iona is strictly better. But I honestly Don't expect alot of it due to it's very prohibitive cost.
The big Decks in the meta right now are Jund's 3 variants, Naya (Boss variant, and even allies isn't too bad), and Mythic.
The main problem with Iona is she does nothing to change your opponent's board position. Against jund a Iona naming black (which is almost always the right color to call) still has to race against the board they still have, and deal with the non-black spells it's still casting. Against Mythic even a 3rd turn Iona might not be the biggest creature on the board. after a turn or two. Against Boss Naya there really isn't a good color to call, you name white you still have to deal with the same threat that Mythic is throwing at you... except it has a Basalisk collar on it.
Emmmy against these matchups give your oppoent exactly 1 turn to not lose to annhilator 6. Some Jund builds run a fleshbag in the board. otherwise they hope they've overan you. Boss Naya has a singleton O-ring which if you've identified your opponent as being boss naya, wait the turn or two you need to combo with into the roil\counter backup. Mythic Has nothing main, and only a day or two in the board. and unlike Iona, that turn 4 emrakul will ALWAYS be the biggest body on the board.
The main argument for Iona is that she locks the opponent out, which isn't always true. Sure against a mono-colored deck it's a race of their board vs. Iona. but most of these decks are Very aggresive. meaning they've gotten you to 12-10 by the time you've resolved polymorph, and might have the ability to storm you. even if you hold Iona off to block. With a 4th 5th turn Emrakul your opponent's board position doesn't count for poop. Even vampires, assuming gatekeeper didn't resolve, with their nighthawks, still needs a nighthawk, and 6 other permanent's in play for that to matter. you can still swing into that nighthawk and do irreversable damage to the vampire's player's board as they went from 5 lands 3 creatures to 1 land, meanwhile your Emrakul is back in your library ready to be polymorphed out again, even as soon as next turn if you're holding a deprive with a garden on the board.
And then there is what Annihlator 6 does to 3-colored decks that Iona can't do. best-case scenario for any of these deck is they were able to keep their tri-lands. but usual-case scenario is they got set to 0 and it's impossible to cast spells if you don't have the mana for it.
The problem with your logic here is that you are basing your opinions on the Pre-ROE metagame. And even then your assumptions are pretty much wrong. Just looking at the 3 online PTQs (and that is a pretty good sample size just based on the attendence), Jund has been getting ROCKED by U/W. It's not even close. The 2 National's qualifiers have shown that Mythic is in fact a force to be reckoned with but we already knew that. Polymoprh is going to warp the format. This forum will be moved to the competitive decks forum VERY soon. It is going to be one of the decks to beat, if not the deck to beat so your assumptions here are pretty far off base.
Against U/W: Iona kolds them to just 3-4 outs in Jace MD. The matchup is VERY favorable as U/W doesn't do anything that worries you, outside of resolving Jace and you can win that fight. They can NEVER tap out, so their X spells are pretty bad, and if they ever do: you win. Iona wins in this matchup not close.
Against Jund (what's left of it): Iona kolds them to hoping to draw every SGC BBE and Lightning Bolt to HOPE to race you. This while you are still streaming out chump blockers. I do, however, agree with you that Emrakul is much better in this matchup. It basically kolds all their cards and forces them to hope to kill you in one turn. That being said, an SGC or a couple Thrinaxes and you still might just lose. Emrakul wins in this matchup but just barely.
Mythic: They run main deck removal now so that makes Emrakul less good. If they run 0 removal you might still lose turn 3 Baneslayer turn 4 Rafiq/Finest Hour although you can always block and kill Baneslayer (as bad as that sounds). The matchup against Mythic Conscription is better since they don't run the Rafiq/Finest Hour extend the hand plan. Bouncing the guy who they use Conscription on is pretty sick. Iona on White is pretty back breaking against this deck also as all their threats have white in the casting cost. Leaves them to Jace outs once again. Iona wins in this matchup.
Naya: Pretty sure Iona on white leaves them in a pretty awkward spot if they don't have a ton of little guys out. Even if they do, Iona is always bigger. Emrakul ends games faster here but they run O-Rings and that's bad for you. They also might just be able to puke out enough guys to threaten lethal even after being forced to sac 6 permanents. I think this is a pretty even one on Emrakul or Iona.
RDW: Iona kolds the entire deck, nuff said. They can EASILY kill you before Emrakul ever gets to attack. Iona, not close again.
U/G Mirror: Iona blue makes it so they can only ever HOPE to hard cast that Emrakul before you kill them. Emrakul leaves them the option of polying your other token and ruining your day. Iona not close.
U/W/g Mirror: Iona white shuts off removal but leaves them to bounce/Jace outs which is less than ideal but gets the job done often enough. Personally I think this is a bad matchup for U/G since they've got access to better spells overall and can do more things to warp the board in their favor. Emrakul is even WORSE in this matchup because they have both U and W removal for it. Iona not close once again.
I left out fringe decks but it is pretty clear cut that Iona is the way to go here. 7 decks and Iona is clearly the best in 5 of them, tied in one, and only marginally worse in the other. Albeit the one it's marginally worse in is Jund but it's not to say she's not a house against Jund, it's just saying Emrakul is more of a house. Why play a guy that gives you a better matchup against 35% of the field but hurts you against the other 65% when you can play a guy that's good in all of the matchups.
I'm also assuming that we are agreeing that 2 of the same is much better than 2 or 3 different guys.
I've been playing Polymorph even before ROE came out, and the only cards I added from ROE are 4 deprives and 2 see beyond. I'm not quite sold on awakening zone, and I tested reality spasm, and it was a little underwhelming. I haven't tested growth spasm, but I don't like tapping out turn 3.
As for the creature/s to play in the deck, I would agree with votan, that there is no reason to play 2 different creatures. I've tried splitting between Emrakul and Iona, but only for testing. As for Iona vs Emrakul, Iona, definitely. In the last tourney I played with this deck, I fought against 4 Jund and 1 WW, went 4-1 with Iona as my creature, only losing to the last Jund player. That being said, I don't think there is a reason to place other creatures in the side, Sphinx of steel wind is more of a win more for me against jund. Terrastodon, NO.
For the mirror, dont play telemin performance. Just put more counterspells in to resolve your planeswalkers (Garruk and Jace).
For the Bant matchup, I still need more testing, although in theory, I think it's still winnable, after resolving Iona, since my version of the deck runs around 7 bounce spells (including Jace). So name white with Iona, and bounce the KOTR (just need the right timing so that they can't Sejiri Steppe it) But again, still need more testing.
The problematic matchups I see game 1 is RDW and Naya. I've seen some RDW builds that get you down to 1 turn 3. For Naya, the only problem I have with that is a resolved CUNNING SPARKMAGE, which I didn't expect them to run MD. But the matchup gets better post board, in my opinion.
I can see my failings... especially after reading Terastadon... thought it had trample... Vintage doesn't really care about Trample most of the time when its a turn 2 9/9...
However, I have now played roughly 70 games with this deck (lot of free time at work today... since I'm on a boat...) and have some conclusions.
1, this is a deck that should be prepared for as far as SB goes, and there have been very few discussions regarding that. This also makes some match-ups slightly weaker, as now we have to cut SB cards to make room for the mirror. It will be played often enough to expect in a 9 round tournament to play it at least once, likely twice, and maybe 3 times. Obviously you will have unaverage tournaments, but when discussing large tournaments (since this is developing competative and not FNM zomg.dec, we should be focusing on...), this has to be taken into account for.
That being said, I think that while Telemins Performance is cute, it is most definitely not going to cut it. When playing the Mirror, it is most important to Polymorph, and while you can say that it gives you Polymorph 5-8, they run counterspells, and therefore the most important thing is how to properly beat a resolved Morph. If you go for Performance and it is countered, you can almost promise that your opponent will just follow up with a Morph of their own and you will lose. So... whats the answer? All Is Dust seems decent enough, since if they are playing correctly they will be running Iona (only) as their WinCon for the mirror, and will name Blue. You need a green/Colorless answer. I don't like All Is Dust though, b/c it costs 7 and is inneffective most of the time... therefore, we have to look for another answer. Terastadon falls victum to being terrible, although Terrastadoning their 7/7 and getting 2 3/3's seems nice. Again though, at 9 mana this seems pretty ridiculous. There doesn't seem to be a catch all answer in Green or Colorless for a resolved Polymorph. Maybe the correct solution is cheap countermagic and the Telemins maxed out (the counters double against Counter U/W) in order to give yourself the max potential.... just some thoughts to ponder over the upcoming standard season if Polymorph really does become a contender.
2) U/W is one of the best match-ups. Jund is not a bad one, but most definitely not where I'd like it. In 29 games against Jund, I won 17 (6 pre-board) and lost 12. The 12 I lost were very much a matter of either not drawing Polymorph fast enough, being forced to Morph pre-maturely, or just flat out being overwhelmed by a superior Jund Draw. Jund can play either the hyper aggro route here, which is effective to a point, as if they get you low enough a post Morph Siege Gang is often enough to win them the game, or the control route which again, Siege Gang/Broodmate are legitimate threats. I know that people say Garruk is an all star here, but what way was Garruk being treated? I know that for me Jund very much would swing into the token, allow it to trade, and shoot their Bolt at Garruk. Or their Pulse. Or Siege Gang tokens. Garruk was never able to make more than 1 maybe 2 tokens, and often was a non-factor as they have their own Garruks often enough to be relevant. Jace was also a non-factor here as he does nothing to help you resolve a polymorph beyond finding the Morph. Sure, he has the ability to win the game, but if he's just not that fantastic against Jund in U/W what makes you think he's going to be any better in a Combo deck thats lacking any sort of removal? I feel like a few of the games I won were luck based, as I three times in 29 played a successful Polymorph on turn 3 while Jund was tapped out, or without an untapped red source.
3) I see a lot of comments regarding Doom Blade being an answer for black decks. I also don't see anybody giving the counter argument that I am about to give. Name 3 top 8 deck LISTS that actually legitimately run Doom Blade. Jund has Terminate and its just better, unless they are worried about Firewalker, in which case they have the superior Death Mark. Vampires could run it, but they have Gatekeepers and since they already have a horrendous match up with Jund, they wouldn't run a card that has minimal effect in that match-up. Grixis? Terminate. Every deck that would run it either doesn't want too or just has better options. So, Terrastadon dying to Doom Blade? Not happening. Now... dying to a Terminate or being chump blocked by a Nighthawk? Sure. That works for me... just not Doomblade since it isn't played.
4) I see a very interesting LACK of conversation on Spell Pierce. I understand it just isn't fantastic in the late game, but honestly... it hits everything we care about in a lot of match-ups, and in the U/G Version, it really helps fascilitate the turn 4/5 Morph a lot better than Deprive. In fact, I think that it might actually be superior in everyway minus returning a spent Garden (in case the game happens to go longer than turn 6). I think it might be a better SB option than MB, and probably in conjunction with Deprive (since that hits dudes) but... I think its a very real and absolutely outstanding card for this deck.
Thats really all I have time for right now, but I have a lot more comments to add here, and I really hope this deck makes a move in the metagame.
Oh, and Awakening Zone is the absolute stone cold nuts. I replaced all of my Into the Roils with three of those, and then went even further and dropped an Explore for the first one. Craig Wescoe was right when he says its the Bitterblossom of this archetype.
Wind Zendikan should probably be those Into the Roils, but its just been so fantastic. In the early game it allows me to attack them down to only 2 Iona attacks (or post board 1 Emrakul). Thats HUGE in some match-ups (like U/W who can't really deal with it when its on an Island or a Plains) and if they kill it (like in Jund) and its on a non-Basic, you get to re-utilize that land (Gardens/Depths). Also allows for the turn 3/4/5 Morph more consistently, as you no longer NEED Khalni Garden. I could see cutting it though....
The SB is weird...
1 Flashfreeze is just additional countermagic for the Jund Match-up, along with Spell Pierce, as countering their instant speed removal is KEY. Being able to Spell Pierce them and then follow up with that tricky 2 mana counter is fantastic. Especially when you devote only one slot to it and they think you are packing multiples. Into the Roil is a nod to U/W. The Telemins are there strictly for Polymorph, but if this deck doesn't pick up by the PTQ they will obv be something different. At FNM now there are three people playing something like this (or Summoners Trap or Chapin U/W) so all in all a good reason to side them in. The one Emrakul and Terrastadon is for the Mirror, where each has its own boon, and none of them are really bad choices... it allows for Flexability. I side in Terrastadon game 2 if they are on Iona, and if they are on Emrakul, I side him in (and keep in an Iona.... I know its a coin flip, but there are some sacrifices that need to be made......). Emrakul is also better against Naya than Iona, because they generally aren't going to have a board like Jund does and Emrakul just wins you the game.
Anyway, just my 2 cents... feel free to rip it up, but I hope to contribute to this thread because this deck is a LOT of fun, and I've been wanting a good combo since Minds Desire.... Dragonstorm and Dredge just didn't do it for me....
i really like the potential power of this archetype and the free wins it will give in the cases where the opponent can't answer in time.
i'm concerned about a few things though. how does this deck deal with the following scenarios:
1) the token you're going to Polymorph gets killed by an instant speed spot removal
2) your Polymorph gets discarded by Duress or countered by Negate
3) your opponent has a Jace, the Mindsculptor in play and will use it bounce whatever you put into play with Polymorph
4) your opponent has Day of Judgment or Consuming Vapors. If its Iona you can name White or Black respective, but what if you flip Emrakul?
None of this situations is instantly fatal to you. i'm just interested to know what the plan is for when the first Polymorph doesn't work. How quickly can you cast another? How easy is to protect your Polymorph and your fatty? Whats the plan?
@Gamester:
1. Regarding Garruk, it's great vs the jund matchup, especially if you ramp turn 2, i usually untap, rather than make a token, so that I have countermagic mana up, and Garruk is out of bolt/blightning range.
2. Regarding spell pierce, I used to run it preROE, but with deprive being printed, I dropped the pierces. I'm running 6 counterspells MD, 4 deprive and 2 negates. Yes, spell pierces can make us be confident of a polymorph with 5 mana, but I usually play it safe rather than rush it.
3. As for replacing into the roils with awakening zone, as I've mentioned, I'm not really sold on awakening zone, but I'm sure about running into the roils, because after landing an Iona, bounce is critical in surviving aggro decks.
4. Wind zendikon: 4 is too much, but I'm still running it, and I agree that it's great against control.
5. Yes, you're SB's weird.
@Metamorph
1. That's what countermagic is for. And I usually play UG morph as a tempo deck.
2. See above.
3. I agree, and most of the time, I try to land a Jace first before morphing.
4. That's why Iona is the superior creature. And you save 2 mana to counter the next turn.
I wholeheartedly agree that Awakening Zone is the Bitterblossom of this deck. It's not even close. Unless you are playing a U/W version of Poly (inferior imo), Awakening stone is the corner stone (see that!) of this deck. Generates an infinite number of guys to morph and gives you plenty of chumpers to stave off death. Would be surprised to see this not an auto 3-4 of in all versions.
Counters are the key to protecting your Polymorph and honestly, you shouldn't be looking to morph early unless pressured or if your opponent taps out like a tard.
are you guys not running 2 vines of the vastwood ? my md counters are 3 negate, 3 spell pierce and 2 vines (it counters there spell in a way) i think going deprive and negate seems good, is see beyond a 4 of ? i have been playing just two for now, with 4 jace.
I have looked around and haven't found a thread that discusses this, so if I'm in the wrong place, sorry about that, but I was wondering if anyone had tried out any Summoning trap decks. I also wanted to know what you all thought the inherent advantages to Polymorph over Summoning trap were. The big ones I see is that the trap package takes up a lot more space in the main (like, a whole lot more) and is possibly a turn or 2 slower (though if you are waiting for counter back up for your morph, not so much), but at the same time it's more counter resistant (if you have 2 for example), more easily fetched (Trapmaker's Snare), is instant speed, and doesn't need a target.
Re: Jace / Roil in the mirror or vs. U/W, I'm curious what people think about a creature I've been polymorphing into for many moons now with some success, and even greater success since the rise of the eldrazi: Progenitus.
Some points about Proggy:
Completely immune to all point removal. As long as you have a token out for gatekeeper protection, nothing short of a Day or Dust will get rid of him. (That, or seeing another copy of himself...) In particular I'm sick of Boss Naya decks with their sparkmage/collar combos. If they assemble that combo, guess what? You're not going to be able to go get Emrakul until you find a Jace. Will you find him before those Knights eat your face up? Well, you'll have to resolve Jace AND Morph in the same turn, WITH counter mana up. good luck with that. I suppose you could side Naturalize and just donk the collar.
Cannot be bounced by Jace, MS. Ever!
Completely unblockable. Doesn't have Emrakul's drawback of trading with a Nighthawk. (Of course, also doesn't have Annihilator 6.)
Drawback: utterly uncastable. Must be Morphed, only.
Sure, he doesn't wipe their board clean like Emrakul, but Emrakul can still be blocked from time to time. Progenitus kills (assuming no lifegain) in two hits.
I'm also curious what folk think about including Not Of This World to protect our answer-creature. Works with Iona and Emrakul, saving from point removals as well as o-rings and journeys. Worth a slot or two, or just run Deprives? I've been having great luck with Deprive and Dispel, with Negates in the board vs. control. (vs. aggro / creature decks, the only way they can typically stop your plan is to use instant-speed removal on your token to counter morph... Dispel says no!)
Opinions on Progenitus, or, for the Iona / Emrakul builds, Not Of This World?
FYI my build runs 2 Prog main, and 1 Iona and 1 Emrakul board.
true proggie has protection from everything, but if your poly late game, or in the mid 5 to 7 turns, i rather have a gamebreaking creature like iona to stop them from casting a certain color with powerful spells, also with emrakul it can get you back in the game with the annilator 6, im running two ionas mb, and in the sb emarakul and sphinx of the steel wind.
Without having to read through the last 60-some pages, I'm just curious why U/ polymorph isn't being discussed.
Is it completely inferior to the U/versions?
I've seen a few UR ones on MTGO lately running like Goblin Assault/Dragon Fodder as their primary token creators, combined with lots of burn (Bolt/Burst) and Double Negatives. Seemed fairly effective to me, capable of holding off early threats with burn until the combo could be set up; even witnessed them "get there" a couple times without any polymorph action, solely on the backs of goblins+burn.
Anyway just curious. Looks like an interesting & fun archtype.
Without having to read through the last 60-some pages, I'm just curious why U/ polymorph isn't being discussed.
Is it completely inferior to the U/versions?
I've seen a few UR ones on MTGO lately running like Goblin Assault/Dragon Fodder as their primary token creators, combined with lots of burn (Bolt/Burst) and Double Negatives. Seemed fairly effective to me; even witnessed them "get there" a couple times without any polymorph action, solely on the backs of goblins+burn.
Anyway just curious. Looks like an interesting & fun archtype.
I would agree with "completely inferior".
Awakening Zone was all the U/G needed (not that it's even needed); Double Negative is worthless more often than not compared to Negate or Spell Pierce.
Awakening Zone was all the U/G needed (not that it's even needed); Double Negative is worthless more often than not compared to Negate or Spell Pierce.
Sure but UR has Negate and Spell Pierce as well.
As far as I can see Goblin Assault is similar to Awakening Zone in that both have a 3CMC and create a token every turn.
Zone tokens are better in a way since you can hold them back to chump, or use them for mana, but on the flipside they can't do damage; and both serve the purpose of giving you a Polymorph target.
I'm just looking at the UG lists and thinking what they have over UR. Garruk obviously, but other then that G doesn't look like it's contributing a whole lot.
I'm not trying to make an argument for one over the other since I have no experience playing this deck, but I just wanted to get all the facts straight before I attempt to put something together.
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You're playing against bad players. There are 2 ways to beat this deck with Iona, win the "don't let polymorph resolve war" or you go balls out aggro. If you're a mono-colored deck , or UW control you play the first option. but that doesn't mean do nothing, you can still apply pressure without giving polymorph a opening to go off. RDW does this with a turn 1 goblin guide. and the occasional hellspark. once they have lots of mana + burn they start to throw things into your face from the bottom of their hand, your only recourse here is to play your jaces and garruks and force them to use the answers which they have. however you have to do this early and often to boil their hand down. emrakul might be a Ideal game 3 board in if your opponent is playing this way.
Decks like jund and mythic are going to take the aggro route, mythic can flat out kill you just as fast as you can polymorph, and jund has valid threats in red and green and Iona is only naming black. Jace, after turn 4, should simply be considered a 4cc sorcery speed brainstorm or unsummon. you can get him to 5 and maybe fateseal away a pesky Blightning, but he'll die soon after. Garruk isn't a serious threat to these decks (assuming they're operating on best-case scenario just like you're assuming for yourself) and anyone who's attacking into him if they know what you're playing is a bad player.
The opponent has a board that will kill you if progenitus ever turns sideways to attack. at which point you have to use him as a blocker, however they can just overrun you because they have more than 1 biggerish creature. This Circumstance is fairly commonplace against Jund\Mythic\RDW.
In this case emrakul wrecks their board upon attack, and if they don't have a flyer they take 15, which given how some decks run fetches can actually be lethal.
I run fog in the board... same diff.
Sure Mythic can kill us as fast as we polymorph. What does that have to do with choosing between Iona and Emmy? If we are dead before we can get anything out, then it doesn't matter what is hiding in our deck.
What are the threats in Jund that are green and red that Jace and Garruk cannot answer? Not trying to be argumentative, just wondering what it is that I haven't seen yet. I'm not going to pretend I play against the top players in the world, but they do know what they are doing. And why would you fateseal away a blightning with Iona on the board naming black?
Why would a deck like RDW play any differently against you if you were running Iona over Emmy?
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that there are matchups that Iona may not be the best choice. But I find that, at least in my meta, I am better off with her MB and siding her out if the match calls for it.
Because Emrakul can swing a swingable game better than Iona against mythic. Iona has to chump their now 8/8 knights that can actually get pro white due to the spell land they searched for if they got 2 knights out.
In Jund you have to contend with whatever is on the board, which typically includes a Leech and\or a thrinax. jace, if iona is on the board will stop them from recasting if you bounced them. but Jace doesn't survive well in this deck because you blew your counter protection on iona. then they have bolt\siege-gang commander. and their own garruks if they're still running them. Garruk dies out making 3/3's to block their leaches and thrinaxes with, or trades with BBE. neither planeswalker really survives blightning.
this is ofcourse assuming you didn't combo off on turn 3. a turn 3 combo with either fatty is usually GG. the best decks can hope for at this point is to get off a Fleshbag o-ring or journey. in the case of journey - o-ring into the roil at the end of their turn pretty much wins that game.
the way I've had RDW play against me in testing is game 2, after a turn 4 iona names red and locks them out except for unearth, they side in more burn. and they play it as a Burn-Control matchup. They have more burn than we have counterspells. they know for the first 2 turns they don't have to worry about the combo, so they feel free to roll out whatever they can those first 2 turns (hopefully 2 guides) and then sit there with a hand full of burn, making sure to have mana and cards open to be able to kill the token. the polymorph player in this case has to play a jace and push the issue. but it's a losing proposition, especially if the red player sides in manabarbs. however this playstyle actually does open you up a bit to hardcast emrakul game 3, which is a raping because of the timewarp, then they take 15 and lose 6 lands. you've nutered anything they could have done in retaliation, and if you boarded in fogs you're in great shape to win.
and If your local meta is all vamps, white weenie, or Red deck wins then yes Iona is by far the best choice. but if you're preparing for something like a SCG open you have to prepare for the overall meta, those matchups are better faught with Emmy main.
play UW control it gets alot of good tools in RoE, only thing is it`s very expensive.
As far as Jund goes, so what if Garruk dies out making chump blockers? You only need 3 turns to win with Iona. I will be glad to let them waste life pumping the leech to gill my Garruk tokens. Also, maybe I run a bit more counters (8 including vines), but I am not scared to block with Iona when I have protection in my hand.
As far as RDW, your example to me seems illogical. When I play against RDW, and they know my deck, they play the same way you exampled above. However, I have never once had a game against RDW where it lasted long enough to be able to hard cast an Emrakul. I either put up enough distraction in Jaces and Garruks that they run out of gas and enter topdeck mode, or they draw enough to kill me while staying safe (not as often as the first situation).
Again, maybe the differences in our decks build and our opponents build (haven't seen Garruk in Jund all that often for example) lead to the different views on MB fatties. All I can say is that in my own personal playing I very rarely morph into Iona and wish it was an Emy game 1.
Iona's better against Vamps and possibly RDW, and restricts the opponent's choices, which is nice. Emrakul restricts the opponent's choices by letting you kill them [and all of their permanents].
Also, I love Deprive. A lot. I think I'm running two, but I kind of want to run three. It's a great, great card in this deck.
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
i've been testing Deprive for the Atlanta SCG open and It's perfectly fine in the deck as a 3 of.
my question here is what are you considering Teir 1
my Teir 1 is Jund, Naya, Mythic, UW control
out of all of those decks I honestly think UW control is the only one where Iona is strictly better. But I honestly Don't expect alot of it due to it's very prohibitive cost.
The problem with your logic here is that you are basing your opinions on the Pre-ROE metagame. And even then your assumptions are pretty much wrong. Just looking at the 3 online PTQs (and that is a pretty good sample size just based on the attendence), Jund has been getting ROCKED by U/W. It's not even close. The 2 National's qualifiers have shown that Mythic is in fact a force to be reckoned with but we already knew that. Polymoprh is going to warp the format. This forum will be moved to the competitive decks forum VERY soon. It is going to be one of the decks to beat, if not the deck to beat so your assumptions here are pretty far off base.
Against U/W: Iona kolds them to just 3-4 outs in Jace MD. The matchup is VERY favorable as U/W doesn't do anything that worries you, outside of resolving Jace and you can win that fight. They can NEVER tap out, so their X spells are pretty bad, and if they ever do: you win. Iona wins in this matchup not close.
Against Jund (what's left of it): Iona kolds them to hoping to draw every SGC BBE and Lightning Bolt to HOPE to race you. This while you are still streaming out chump blockers. I do, however, agree with you that Emrakul is much better in this matchup. It basically kolds all their cards and forces them to hope to kill you in one turn. That being said, an SGC or a couple Thrinaxes and you still might just lose. Emrakul wins in this matchup but just barely.
Mythic: They run main deck removal now so that makes Emrakul less good. If they run 0 removal you might still lose turn 3 Baneslayer turn 4 Rafiq/Finest Hour although you can always block and kill Baneslayer (as bad as that sounds). The matchup against Mythic Conscription is better since they don't run the Rafiq/Finest Hour extend the hand plan. Bouncing the guy who they use Conscription on is pretty sick. Iona on White is pretty back breaking against this deck also as all their threats have white in the casting cost. Leaves them to Jace outs once again. Iona wins in this matchup.
Naya: Pretty sure Iona on white leaves them in a pretty awkward spot if they don't have a ton of little guys out. Even if they do, Iona is always bigger. Emrakul ends games faster here but they run O-Rings and that's bad for you. They also might just be able to puke out enough guys to threaten lethal even after being forced to sac 6 permanents. I think this is a pretty even one on Emrakul or Iona.
RDW: Iona kolds the entire deck, nuff said. They can EASILY kill you before Emrakul ever gets to attack. Iona, not close again.
U/G Mirror: Iona blue makes it so they can only ever HOPE to hard cast that Emrakul before you kill them. Emrakul leaves them the option of polying your other token and ruining your day. Iona not close.
U/W/g Mirror: Iona white shuts off removal but leaves them to bounce/Jace outs which is less than ideal but gets the job done often enough. Personally I think this is a bad matchup for U/G since they've got access to better spells overall and can do more things to warp the board in their favor. Emrakul is even WORSE in this matchup because they have both U and W removal for it. Iona not close once again.
I left out fringe decks but it is pretty clear cut that Iona is the way to go here. 7 decks and Iona is clearly the best in 5 of them, tied in one, and only marginally worse in the other. Albeit the one it's marginally worse in is Jund but it's not to say she's not a house against Jund, it's just saying Emrakul is more of a house. Why play a guy that gives you a better matchup against 35% of the field but hurts you against the other 65% when you can play a guy that's good in all of the matchups.
I'm also assuming that we are agreeing that 2 of the same is much better than 2 or 3 different guys.
2 ulamog
2 emrakul
2 kozilek
1 progenitus
im only running 4 negate md.
im running 1 iona sb. vs RDW.
my meta is BRDW, jund, vamps, and u/w control
this deck can usually stomp brdw, and jund, vamps is easy but u/w is hard for me.. any advice?
Ludvic test subject.dek (top 8 at GPT)
Necrotic ooze
Werewolves
Modern
Esper Venser
Legacy
GW aggro- in the making.
As for the creature/s to play in the deck, I would agree with votan, that there is no reason to play 2 different creatures. I've tried splitting between Emrakul and Iona, but only for testing. As for Iona vs Emrakul, Iona, definitely. In the last tourney I played with this deck, I fought against 4 Jund and 1 WW, went 4-1 with Iona as my creature, only losing to the last Jund player. That being said, I don't think there is a reason to place other creatures in the side, Sphinx of steel wind is more of a win more for me against jund. Terrastodon, NO.
For the mirror, dont play telemin performance. Just put more counterspells in to resolve your planeswalkers (Garruk and Jace).
For the Bant matchup, I still need more testing, although in theory, I think it's still winnable, after resolving Iona, since my version of the deck runs around 7 bounce spells (including Jace). So name white with Iona, and bounce the KOTR (just need the right timing so that they can't Sejiri Steppe it) But again, still need more testing.
The problematic matchups I see game 1 is RDW and Naya. I've seen some RDW builds that get you down to 1 turn 3. For Naya, the only problem I have with that is a resolved CUNNING SPARKMAGE, which I didn't expect them to run MD. But the matchup gets better post board, in my opinion.
However, I have now played roughly 70 games with this deck (lot of free time at work today... since I'm on a boat...) and have some conclusions.
1, this is a deck that should be prepared for as far as SB goes, and there have been very few discussions regarding that. This also makes some match-ups slightly weaker, as now we have to cut SB cards to make room for the mirror. It will be played often enough to expect in a 9 round tournament to play it at least once, likely twice, and maybe 3 times. Obviously you will have unaverage tournaments, but when discussing large tournaments (since this is developing competative and not FNM zomg.dec, we should be focusing on...), this has to be taken into account for.
That being said, I think that while Telemins Performance is cute, it is most definitely not going to cut it. When playing the Mirror, it is most important to Polymorph, and while you can say that it gives you Polymorph 5-8, they run counterspells, and therefore the most important thing is how to properly beat a resolved Morph. If you go for Performance and it is countered, you can almost promise that your opponent will just follow up with a Morph of their own and you will lose. So... whats the answer? All Is Dust seems decent enough, since if they are playing correctly they will be running Iona (only) as their WinCon for the mirror, and will name Blue. You need a green/Colorless answer. I don't like All Is Dust though, b/c it costs 7 and is inneffective most of the time... therefore, we have to look for another answer. Terastadon falls victum to being terrible, although Terrastadoning their 7/7 and getting 2 3/3's seems nice. Again though, at 9 mana this seems pretty ridiculous. There doesn't seem to be a catch all answer in Green or Colorless for a resolved Polymorph. Maybe the correct solution is cheap countermagic and the Telemins maxed out (the counters double against Counter U/W) in order to give yourself the max potential.... just some thoughts to ponder over the upcoming standard season if Polymorph really does become a contender.
2) U/W is one of the best match-ups. Jund is not a bad one, but most definitely not where I'd like it. In 29 games against Jund, I won 17 (6 pre-board) and lost 12. The 12 I lost were very much a matter of either not drawing Polymorph fast enough, being forced to Morph pre-maturely, or just flat out being overwhelmed by a superior Jund Draw. Jund can play either the hyper aggro route here, which is effective to a point, as if they get you low enough a post Morph Siege Gang is often enough to win them the game, or the control route which again, Siege Gang/Broodmate are legitimate threats. I know that people say Garruk is an all star here, but what way was Garruk being treated? I know that for me Jund very much would swing into the token, allow it to trade, and shoot their Bolt at Garruk. Or their Pulse. Or Siege Gang tokens. Garruk was never able to make more than 1 maybe 2 tokens, and often was a non-factor as they have their own Garruks often enough to be relevant. Jace was also a non-factor here as he does nothing to help you resolve a polymorph beyond finding the Morph. Sure, he has the ability to win the game, but if he's just not that fantastic against Jund in U/W what makes you think he's going to be any better in a Combo deck thats lacking any sort of removal? I feel like a few of the games I won were luck based, as I three times in 29 played a successful Polymorph on turn 3 while Jund was tapped out, or without an untapped red source.
3) I see a lot of comments regarding Doom Blade being an answer for black decks. I also don't see anybody giving the counter argument that I am about to give. Name 3 top 8 deck LISTS that actually legitimately run Doom Blade. Jund has Terminate and its just better, unless they are worried about Firewalker, in which case they have the superior Death Mark. Vampires could run it, but they have Gatekeepers and since they already have a horrendous match up with Jund, they wouldn't run a card that has minimal effect in that match-up. Grixis? Terminate. Every deck that would run it either doesn't want too or just has better options. So, Terrastadon dying to Doom Blade? Not happening. Now... dying to a Terminate or being chump blocked by a Nighthawk? Sure. That works for me... just not Doomblade since it isn't played.
4) I see a very interesting LACK of conversation on Spell Pierce. I understand it just isn't fantastic in the late game, but honestly... it hits everything we care about in a lot of match-ups, and in the U/G Version, it really helps fascilitate the turn 4/5 Morph a lot better than Deprive. In fact, I think that it might actually be superior in everyway minus returning a spent Garden (in case the game happens to go longer than turn 6). I think it might be a better SB option than MB, and probably in conjunction with Deprive (since that hits dudes) but... I think its a very real and absolutely outstanding card for this deck.
Thats really all I have time for right now, but I have a lot more comments to add here, and I really hope this deck makes a move in the metagame.
Oh, and Awakening Zone is the absolute stone cold nuts. I replaced all of my Into the Roils with three of those, and then went even further and dropped an Explore for the first one. Craig Wescoe was right when he says its the Bitterblossom of this archetype.
For reference, my current MD list...
4 Polymorph
4 Awakening Zone
3 Explore
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
4 Ponder
4 See Beyond
4 Deprive
4 Wind Zendikan
5 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Khalni Garden
4 Halmir Depths
1 Emrakul
4 Spell Pierce
4 Telemins Performance
1 Terrastadon
4 Into the Roil
1 Flashfreeze
Quick aside....
Wind Zendikan should probably be those Into the Roils, but its just been so fantastic. In the early game it allows me to attack them down to only 2 Iona attacks (or post board 1 Emrakul). Thats HUGE in some match-ups (like U/W who can't really deal with it when its on an Island or a Plains) and if they kill it (like in Jund) and its on a non-Basic, you get to re-utilize that land (Gardens/Depths). Also allows for the turn 3/4/5 Morph more consistently, as you no longer NEED Khalni Garden. I could see cutting it though....
The SB is weird...
1 Flashfreeze is just additional countermagic for the Jund Match-up, along with Spell Pierce, as countering their instant speed removal is KEY. Being able to Spell Pierce them and then follow up with that tricky 2 mana counter is fantastic. Especially when you devote only one slot to it and they think you are packing multiples. Into the Roil is a nod to U/W. The Telemins are there strictly for Polymorph, but if this deck doesn't pick up by the PTQ they will obv be something different. At FNM now there are three people playing something like this (or Summoners Trap or Chapin U/W) so all in all a good reason to side them in. The one Emrakul and Terrastadon is for the Mirror, where each has its own boon, and none of them are really bad choices... it allows for Flexability. I side in Terrastadon game 2 if they are on Iona, and if they are on Emrakul, I side him in (and keep in an Iona.... I know its a coin flip, but there are some sacrifices that need to be made......). Emrakul is also better against Naya than Iona, because they generally aren't going to have a board like Jund does and Emrakul just wins you the game.
Anyway, just my 2 cents... feel free to rip it up, but I hope to contribute to this thread because this deck is a LOT of fun, and I've been wanting a good combo since Minds Desire.... Dragonstorm and Dredge just didn't do it for me....
i'm concerned about a few things though. how does this deck deal with the following scenarios:
1) the token you're going to Polymorph gets killed by an instant speed spot removal
2) your Polymorph gets discarded by Duress or countered by Negate
3) your opponent has a Jace, the Mindsculptor in play and will use it bounce whatever you put into play with Polymorph
4) your opponent has Day of Judgment or Consuming Vapors. If its Iona you can name White or Black respective, but what if you flip Emrakul?
None of this situations is instantly fatal to you. i'm just interested to know what the plan is for when the first Polymorph doesn't work. How quickly can you cast another? How easy is to protect your Polymorph and your fatty? Whats the plan?
1. Regarding Garruk, it's great vs the jund matchup, especially if you ramp turn 2, i usually untap, rather than make a token, so that I have countermagic mana up, and Garruk is out of bolt/blightning range.
2. Regarding spell pierce, I used to run it preROE, but with deprive being printed, I dropped the pierces. I'm running 6 counterspells MD, 4 deprive and 2 negates. Yes, spell pierces can make us be confident of a polymorph with 5 mana, but I usually play it safe rather than rush it.
3. As for replacing into the roils with awakening zone, as I've mentioned, I'm not really sold on awakening zone, but I'm sure about running into the roils, because after landing an Iona, bounce is critical in surviving aggro decks.
4. Wind zendikon: 4 is too much, but I'm still running it, and I agree that it's great against control.
5. Yes, you're SB's weird.
@Metamorph
1. That's what countermagic is for. And I usually play UG morph as a tempo deck.
2. See above.
3. I agree, and most of the time, I try to land a Jace first before morphing.
4. That's why Iona is the superior creature. And you save 2 mana to counter the next turn.
Counters are the key to protecting your Polymorph and honestly, you shouldn't be looking to morph early unless pressured or if your opponent taps out like a tard.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=380755
Thoughts?
Some points about Proggy:
Completely immune to all point removal. As long as you have a token out for gatekeeper protection, nothing short of a Day or Dust will get rid of him. (That, or seeing another copy of himself...) In particular I'm sick of Boss Naya decks with their sparkmage/collar combos. If they assemble that combo, guess what? You're not going to be able to go get Emrakul until you find a Jace. Will you find him before those Knights eat your face up? Well, you'll have to resolve Jace AND Morph in the same turn, WITH counter mana up. good luck with that. I suppose you could side Naturalize and just donk the collar.
Cannot be bounced by Jace, MS. Ever!
Completely unblockable. Doesn't have Emrakul's drawback of trading with a Nighthawk. (Of course, also doesn't have Annihilator 6.)
Drawback: utterly uncastable. Must be Morphed, only.
Sure, he doesn't wipe their board clean like Emrakul, but Emrakul can still be blocked from time to time. Progenitus kills (assuming no lifegain) in two hits.
I'm also curious what folk think about including Not Of This World to protect our answer-creature. Works with Iona and Emrakul, saving from point removals as well as o-rings and journeys. Worth a slot or two, or just run Deprives? I've been having great luck with Deprive and Dispel, with Negates in the board vs. control. (vs. aggro / creature decks, the only way they can typically stop your plan is to use instant-speed removal on your token to counter morph... Dispel says no!)
Opinions on Progenitus, or, for the Iona / Emrakul builds, Not Of This World?
FYI my build runs 2 Prog main, and 1 Iona and 1 Emrakul board.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=380755
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=380755
Is it completely inferior to the U/versions?
I've seen a few UR ones on MTGO lately running like Goblin Assault/Dragon Fodder as their primary token creators, combined with lots of burn (Bolt/Burst) and Double Negatives. Seemed fairly effective to me, capable of holding off early threats with burn until the combo could be set up; even witnessed them "get there" a couple times without any polymorph action, solely on the backs of goblins+burn.
Anyway just curious. Looks like an interesting & fun archtype.
I would agree with "completely inferior".
Awakening Zone was all the U/G needed (not that it's even needed); Double Negative is worthless more often than not compared to Negate or Spell Pierce.
T2:?
MWSTesting:URRuneflare Trap
My Trade Thread
Sure but UR has Negate and Spell Pierce as well.
As far as I can see Goblin Assault is similar to Awakening Zone in that both have a 3CMC and create a token every turn.
Zone tokens are better in a way since you can hold them back to chump, or use them for mana, but on the flipside they can't do damage; and both serve the purpose of giving you a Polymorph target.
I'm just looking at the UG lists and thinking what they have over UR. Garruk obviously, but other then that G doesn't look like it's contributing a whole lot.
I'm not trying to make an argument for one over the other since I have no experience playing this deck, but I just wanted to get all the facts straight before I attempt to put something together.