Wall of Omens is a great card, but it won't see wide play and be format defining like some people are claiming-Meddling Mage is also an amazing card but the meta just wasn't right for it to excel like it did the first time it was in standard.
Wall of Omens is a great card, but it won't see wide play and be format defining like some people are claiming-Meddling Mage is also an amazing card but the meta just wasn't right for it to excel like it did the first time it was in standard.
not really a proper comparison since wall of omens is much more playable than meddling mage. for one thing, it doesn't fall to a lightning bolt. but yeah, it's not gonna be format defining as some people claim.
Wall of Omens is a great card, but it won't see wide play and be format defining like some people are claiming-Meddling Mage is also an amazing card but the meta just wasn't right for it to excel like it did the first time it was in standard.
If Meddling Mage cantripped, you could be your sorry arse it would be played.
Well Im guessing you're think that UW-Tap Out Control is bad then?
Isn't it clearly a bad deck? I may be mistaken, but isn't the tap-out version the one that isn't getting any results and is frustrating both pros and FNMers alike? I've crushed it every time I've seen it. Of course I'm playing Jund and I still beat most of the more Chapin-esque control decks I see too. I just thought there was a growing consensus that the tap-out version was no good and that people ought to be working on a more permission-based version like Chapin's.
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__________ BBRRRGG Jund UUUWWWR Control RRRRRU Devastating Red
Isn't it clearly a bad deck? I may be mistaken, but isn't the tap-out version the one that isn't getting any results and is frustrating both pros and FNMers alike? I've crushed it every time I've seen it. Of course I'm playing Jund and I still beat most of the more Chapin-esque control decks I see too. I just thought there was a growing consensus that the tap-out version was no good and that people ought to be working on a more permission-based version like Chapin's.
Actually it's been in more top 8s tops in European national qualifiers over traditional chapin control. So I see the decks being equals.
Wall of Omens is a great card, but it won't see wide play and be format defining like some people are claiming-Meddling Mage is also an amazing card but the meta just wasn't right for it to excel like it did the first time it was in standard.
It's sort of odd to say a card won't see wide play when every good Control player has expressed strong support for it. I guess the handful of dissenters on forums outweigh the voices of Kibler, Chapin, etc? Wafo-Tapa is a better control player than you, yes?
A creature-heavy meta makes Wall of Omens better, it doesn't matter if they kill it, that's less removal for your Baneslayers, Celestial Colonnades, Knight of the White Orchid, Gideon Jura, etc.
Some one said that what is the point of playing Wall of Denial against vampire decks... well it seems that you havent ever actually played against those decks in your life, so go play the game first and come back after that. I wonder how you are going to block even few of those guys coming flying through Vampire Nocturnus with Wall of Omens. Yes, they are eventually get through, but I don't need the wall then. I just need enough time, enough life against vampires. That is what control is all about, getting enough time.
Uh, sorry buddy, but I'd wager a guess that Subrosian has played a lot more Control games than you have, considering he understands why Wall of Denial is bad against Vampires, and clearly, you don't.
Just for reference: this and this are why Wall of Denial fails against Vampires. If they're swinging in with an active Nocturnus, you've done something wrong.
People really don't think Wall of Omens is good? Or, rather, think that it won't see play? At the very least, the existence of Overgrown Battlement and Perimeter Captain should be a "durr durr" with this card.
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People really don't think Wall of Omens is good? Or, rather, think that it won't see play? At the very least, the existence of Overgrown Battlement and Perimeter Captain should be a "durr durr" with this card.
The majority of people are bad at Magic. Now they'll deny that up and down, they will fight tooth-and-nail for incorrect viewpoints, they will fight you yelling and screaming that card advantage "doesn't matter" and theory-deck why Baneslayer Angel is "unplayable"... but that's just the way things go.
Someone has to take 1400th place at the next Grand Prix, right?
My hope is that they continue to say that Wall of Omens is bad, that they continue to not run it, and that they continue to do stupid crap like building 70 card UW Control decks or trying to win with mill. There are too many competitive players at every PTQ and GP already, why add more?
Partially true.
Including multiple Omens means that you actually have less of these cards.
Playing control for me is to try play only few creatures, so that the opponent actually don't have any use to the removals whatsoever. Usually good idea is to keep creatures under shroud that even most of those removals are useless.
Some one said that what is the point of playing Wall of Denial against vampire decks... well it seems that you havent ever actually played against those decks in your life, so go play the game first and come back after that. I wonder how you are going to block even few of those guys coming flying through Vampire Nocturnus with Wall of Omens. Yes, they are eventually get through, but I don't need the wall then. I just need enough time, enough life against vampires. That is what control is all about, getting enough time.
See the cool thing about me being right is that other people will jump in this thread and back up my points:
Uh, sorry buddy, but I'd wager a guess that Subrosian has played a lot more Control games than you have, considering he understands why Wall of Denial is bad against Vampires, and clearly, you don't.
Just for reference: this and this are why Wall of Denial fails against Vampires. If they're swinging in with an active Nocturnus, you've done something wrong.
Boom, headshot.
Exactly. The best cards against Vampires are all in white: Celestial Purge, Oblivion Ring, Day of Judgment, Path to Exile and Journey to Nowhere. In fact, all of those cards are ALWAYS better than Wall of Denial. Oblivion Ring stops a Planeswalker, Wall of Denial doesn't... and Wall of Denial doesn't let you punish Jund for swinging with that Raging Ravine like a Celestial Purge will.
I wonder if Wall of Omens is good enough that Baneslayer can come back in, or allow Sphinx to hit the table more. People that don't see how good that wall is right now are going to understand shortly when it starts showing up as 4-ofs in Naya and UW.
It's not exactly going to break Jund, but it will help...until Vengevine starts raping the format...
I still don't see how Nighthawk is dangerous to me. I have Lightning Bolt waiting for him...
UWr is absolutely terrible against Vampires, it's easily one of its worst matchups. If you're having to choose between UW Control (which has a good Vamps matchup) or UWr (which has a terrible Vamps matchups) why would you take the latter?
UWr is absolutely terrible against Vampires, it's easily one of its worst matchups. If you're having to choose between UW Control (which has a good Vamps matchup) or UWr (which has a terrible Vamps matchups) why would you take the latter?
If you're talking about Vamps + Tectonic Edge, I can see your point, otherwise the MU hasn't been all too terrible for my UWr.
How about the RDW MU for Chapin? Easily one of the worst MU's for that deck.
If you're talking about Vamps + Tectonic Edge, I can see your point, otherwise the MU hasn't been all too terrible for my UWr.
How about the RDW MU for Chapin? Easily one of the worst MU's for that deck.
UWr. Earthquake can't always reliably sweep, and you reliance on smaller increments of CA and permission means that you pretty much lose to a resolved mind sludge, whereas tapout UW has the buffer of "look at my mind springs *****. look at them".
UWr. Earthquake can't always reliably sweep, and you reliance on smaller increments of CA and permission means that you pretty much lose to a resolved mind sludge, whereas tapout UW has the buffer of "look at my mind springs *****. look at them".
I'm running 3 and 3, also, Nocturni can't always reliably hit a black card. UWr can also counter a mind sludge. Perhaps I need to test more, but Vamps hasn't been too rough for either my UW or UWr.
I'm running 3 and 3, also, Nocturni can't always reliably hit a black card. UWr can also counter a mind sludge. Perhaps I need to test more, but Vamps hasn't been too rough for either my UW or UWr.
Its super awkward, even if you aren't MDing flashfreeze and have negates. You have to counter mind sludge or they beat you. Having jaces and mind springs alleviates this a little, but its still brutal when it happens.
People get that Wall of Omens is supposed to die, right? You don't want or need it to stick around longterm; it will have done its job if it just eats removal or dies on its first block.
Forcing someone to burn 2 mana early in the game for a terminate on a cantrip creature is a huge win for you - almost a time walk. I know we're used to thinking about early mana as basically free, but when they spend turn 3 or 4 casting Terminate instead of Knight of the Reliquary or Bloodbraid Elf, you win. And if they cast the Bloodbraid Elf before the Terminate, your Wall of Omens effectively fogs for a turn.
Late game it doesn't often buy you a turn anymore (because having enough mana is relatively trivial), but it does up your odds of drawing the cards you actually need, because it cantrips, and if they happen to not have any removal, it can still fog some damage.
I understand that wall of omens can create a huge tempo swing at little to no cost but I thinki blue will have a very tough time fitting the card in its 60. As a matter of fact that only way they could is if they go with the spreading seas builds people have seen but replace seas for walls. Here is how I look at it (this is U/W Chapin not tap out):
Wall of Omens:
Case 1: I play omens and it dies quickly to removal. In this case I have generated a slight (sometimes not at all) tempo swing and +1 card advantage (1 for 1 trade + cantrip)
Case 2: I play Wall of omes and it sticks around until I inevitably clear the board. Great Help to temp and creates card advantage of atelas +1 assuming you made them over commit.
Spreading Seas:
Case 1: They have a shakey mana base and the card helps shut them off. Tempo swing is huge and card advantage is +1 (cantrip and make removal dead)
Case 2:Their mana base is fine and spreading seas just cantrips. Little to no tempo swing but +1 card advantage.
So as you can see the various situations with each are almost identical. What we then need to do is think about which card combos better with the rest of the deck. I think it is spreading seas since it +tectonic are a great land disruption package and wall of omens combos only with Sweepers to force over commitment. Since the wall combo forces you to destroy the wall I find that land denial is the way to go.
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Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
This topic is about if we should bring red back in UW control or not. That is the point. I must make some compromise between white and blue. Some white cards must leave probably, I don't want to add more white cards in. See? I need room for the red.
That's exactly why you shouldn't be splashing red...
That is why I need flying AND shroud. Red is in. I can use my Earthquakes again. Earthquake would be devastating to my Wall of Omens.
...how often to you Earthquake for more than 3? Not to mention that Wall of Omens replaces itself, so you're not losing anything by killing it with Earthquake... I'm sincerely shocked that people still can't understand this most basic of concepts.
Wall of Omens is fantastic and is going to be good friends with the other two good walls (this and this). I don't know about playing just this, I'm in love with them all in the same deck right now.
Why do people keep harping on about how good Perimeter Captain is? It's a complete and utter waste of a slot. It will not be played in any relevant deck successfully.
If you're talking about Vamps + Tectonic Edge, I can see your point, otherwise the MU hasn't been all too terrible for my UWr.
How about the RDW MU for Chapin? Easily one of the worst MU's for that deck.
I played UWr for a good 4 months after Zendikar's release. It has a terrible matchup against Vampires. At BEST it's 40/60. [Traditional] UWr's theme is land denial, which doesn't do a thing against Vampires. Add to that recurring Bloodghasts, the threat of Mind Sludge ending the game for you, and Nighthawks/Gatekeepers making short work of your walls / sphinx, and Vampires are an uphill battle. You can tune your deck to beat them easier (purges, scatters, etc), but then your game is weaker against other decks.
I hardly see how saying RDW is a bad matchup for Chapin-UW is relevant to the discussion, but sure, that's a bad matchup for UW. Well done for pointing that out.
Wall of Omens:
Case 1: I play omens and it dies quickly to removal. In this case I have generated a slight (sometimes not at all) tempo swing and +1 card advantage (1 for 1 trade + cantrip)
Case 2: I play Wall of omes and it sticks around until I inevitably clear the board. Great Help to temp and creates card advantage of atelas +1 assuming you made them over commit.
Spreading Seas:
Case 1: They have a shakey mana base and the card helps shut them off. Tempo swing is huge and card advantage is +1 (cantrip and make removal dead)
Case 2:Their mana base is fine and spreading seas just cantrips. Little to no tempo swing but +1 card advantage.
That's a really bad vacuum comparison of the two cards. Assuming your Case 1: Omens is supposed to compare to your Case 2: Seas, there is a vast difference between the two. If Spreading Seas has no effect, you gain a card, but don't actually affect your opponent in the slightest. Essentially, you just time walked yourself. In the Case 1 of the Wall of Omens, you've forced them to remove the wall, wasting their turn and time walking them. There is a huge, huge difference between the two.
As an allies' player, I dearly hope all the doubters decide not to play wall of omens online.
The card advantage from playing this, me having to overextend a card or two more than I would otherwise, then being wrathed, is just really good.
Not game-winning-bomb kind of good, but its a definate advantage that I can do bascially *nothing* about. Playing more removal doesn't help. Playing more creatures doesn't help. Its a 2 mana 2 for 1.
Anything that cycles for two mana and does is worth *considering*, no matter how minimal the effect might seem, in my opinion. Have people already forgotton how spreading seas was overlooked because it didn't seem to do much? Stoneforge mystic? Card advantage really matters, especialy when attached to such cheap cards. I've been playing half-seriously for just a few months, and even I've worked that out.
And then along comes a card that very obviously does something agaisnt every aggro deck in the format...and apparently its not good enough. 2 mana, draw a card, gain 3+ life or time walk your opponent (probably) isn't good enough. I'm just amazed. Have the doubters ever played an aggro deck and figured out just why they lost to control? Haven't they noticed the annoying delays and effective life-gain from cards like this, spreading seas, and knight of the white orchid? Haven't they noticed how they gradually run out of cards in hand until its futile to play on?
Simply put, its all card advantage. It makes the (magic) world go round.
If you're talking about Vamps + Tectonic Edge, I can see your point, otherwise the MU hasn't been all too terrible for my UWr.
How about the RDW MU for Chapin? Easily one of the worst MU's for that deck.
The matchup against Vamps / mono-black decks for UWr Control is awful, I don't see any point being coy about it. You have too many cards like Lightning Bolt, Earthquake and Ajani Vengeant that just do nothing to help you against that type of aggro. It's bad. I would heavily favor the Vamps player in that scenario, and it's made worse in more control-ish builds that will absolutely use Tectonic Edge + Grim Discovery to wreck your manabase, all while beating you down with bears.
Chapin Control has a rough RDW matchup, that's why I don't run Chapin Control. Pre-Eldrazi I was running 4-color control on the Spread 'Em core - RDW was my best matchup, literally the only way I could lose a game 2 or 3 (I actually never lost a game 2 or 3) was if I had to mulligan to 3 cards or something. RDW + B cannot deal with every cascade ending in Rhox War Monk, Kor Firewalker, Pithing Needle, etc... they hate it. When you drop a lifelink or lifegain every single turn, when you go "Captured Sunlight into Rhox War Monk" they're like "oh crap".
I have been testing UW Tap-Out and it's good enough against RDW that I question if RDW is even viable. Wall of Omens, Knight of the White-Orchid, Baneslayer Angel, Path to Exile, Celestial Purge, Flashfreeze, Negate.... GG? Even Game 1 is favorable because you have so many more creatures, and Gideon is just icing on the cake. You just go "Gideon: your creature spells don't hurt anymore".
I hardly see how saying RDW is a bad matchup for Chapin-UW is relevant to the discussion, but sure, that's a bad matchup for UW. Well done for pointing that out.
It's relevant in that I'd rather play UWr over UW vs RDW as other's have said they'd rather play UW over UWr vs Vampires. I'm surprised that simple little nugget of knowledge slipped by your thread-relevancy-scanner as being unrelated to the discussion. Perhaps your sensors need an upgrade, duder?
Quote from subrosian »
I have been testing UW Tap-Out and it's good enough against RDW that I question if RDW is even viable. Wall of Omens, Knight of the White-Orchid, Baneslayer Angel, Path to Exile, Celestial Purge, Flashfreeze, Negate.... GG? Even Game 1 is favorable because you have so many more creatures, and Gideon is just icing on the cake. You just go "Gideon: your creature spells don't hurt anymore".
All I've been seeing lately is bRDW splash for the manlands, term, and blightning. This MU isn't so rough with UWr. Wall of Denial is slightly better than Wall of Omens in this MU from what I've tested in that color base.
As for UW tap out, Knight of the White Orcard and Wall of Omens is pretty sick, epecially with a resolved Baneslayer. Only thing I phear is the Searing Blaze on the Knight, but by then it might not matter.
The matchup against Vamps / mono-black decks for UWr Control is awful, I don't see any point being coy about it. You have too many cards like Lightning Bolt, Earthquake and Ajani Vengeant that just do nothing to help you against that type of aggro. It's bad. I would heavily favor the Vamps player in that scenario, and it's made worse in more control-ish builds that will absolutely use Tectonic Edge + Grim Discovery to wreck your manabase, all while beating you down with bears.
I disagree almost entirely. I was running UWr at FNM all during Worldwake against a meta with about 16 vamps players. Granted, a few of them were terrible players, but there were a couple that are fantastic MtG players.
Eventually I tweaked UWr to take advantage of this and drove Vamps out of my meta almost single handedly. They can't handle Obelisk of Alara, which was some awesome tech if they ever infect your meta like they did mine. Swerve is great too. I also disagree that the cards you mentioned don't do anything against them. Ajani Vengeant is excellent against them, Lightning Bolt kills everything that isn't a Bloodwitch and she should never hit the table (unless you have the DoJ), and Earthquake is pretty good against those bears you were mentioning.
After board you have Purge, Swerve, and White Knights if you need them. I never lose to Vamps. If you run Wall of Denial then I can see why Vamps would trouble you, but drop it and you'll see that Vamps is just too terrible for Tier 1.
Yeah, which of these decks you play is all meta dependant. UWr does better against aggro than UW does. UW does way better against other control decks. I'm fixing that by switching the Luminarch Ascensions in the SB to Goblin Assualts and also by adding more counters. And I personally have had great results with splashing r. I got 3rd place in worldwake gameday, and got to the finals, losing to UW control(Irony, huh?).
The vamps matchup shouldn't be too hard with 3DoJ and 2 Martial Coup.
Jund is the only deck that is difficult against my deckbuild. Blightning and Cascade. gbr having more card advantage than uw(r), that's insane.
So thats my two cents on the red splash. I have never been tempted to go straight UW.
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Well Im guessing you're think that UW-Tap Out Control is bad then?
not really a proper comparison since wall of omens is much more playable than meddling mage. for one thing, it doesn't fall to a lightning bolt. but yeah, it's not gonna be format defining as some people claim.
RWG Boss Naya
If Meddling Mage cantripped, you could be your sorry arse it would be played.
Isn't it clearly a bad deck? I may be mistaken, but isn't the tap-out version the one that isn't getting any results and is frustrating both pros and FNMers alike? I've crushed it every time I've seen it. Of course I'm playing Jund and I still beat most of the more Chapin-esque control decks I see too. I just thought there was a growing consensus that the tap-out version was no good and that people ought to be working on a more permission-based version like Chapin's.
BBRRRGG Jund
UUUWWWR Control
RRRRRU Devastating Red
1 less terminate for your Colonnade.
Actually it's been in more top 8s tops in European national qualifiers over traditional chapin control. So I see the decks being equals.
It's sort of odd to say a card won't see wide play when every good Control player has expressed strong support for it. I guess the handful of dissenters on forums outweigh the voices of Kibler, Chapin, etc? Wafo-Tapa is a better control player than you, yes?
A creature-heavy meta makes Wall of Omens better, it doesn't matter if they kill it, that's less removal for your Baneslayers, Celestial Colonnades, Knight of the White Orchid, Gideon Jura, etc.
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Uh, sorry buddy, but I'd wager a guess that Subrosian has played a lot more Control games than you have, considering he understands why Wall of Denial is bad against Vampires, and clearly, you don't.
Just for reference: this and this are why Wall of Denial fails against Vampires. If they're swinging in with an active Nocturnus, you've done something wrong.
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The majority of people are bad at Magic. Now they'll deny that up and down, they will fight tooth-and-nail for incorrect viewpoints, they will fight you yelling and screaming that card advantage "doesn't matter" and theory-deck why Baneslayer Angel is "unplayable"... but that's just the way things go.
Someone has to take 1400th place at the next Grand Prix, right?
My hope is that they continue to say that Wall of Omens is bad, that they continue to not run it, and that they continue to do stupid crap like building 70 card UW Control decks or trying to win with mill. There are too many competitive players at every PTQ and GP already, why add more?
See the cool thing about me being right is that other people will jump in this thread and back up my points:
Boom, headshot.
Exactly. The best cards against Vampires are all in white: Celestial Purge, Oblivion Ring, Day of Judgment, Path to Exile and Journey to Nowhere. In fact, all of those cards are ALWAYS better than Wall of Denial. Oblivion Ring stops a Planeswalker, Wall of Denial doesn't... and Wall of Denial doesn't let you punish Jund for swinging with that Raging Ravine like a Celestial Purge will.
Spike School
Spike doesn't think. Spike doesn't feel. Spike doesn't laugh or cry. All Spike does from dusk till dawn is make the Johnnys die
It's not exactly going to break Jund, but it will help...until Vengevine starts raping the format...
UWr is absolutely terrible against Vampires, it's easily one of its worst matchups. If you're having to choose between UW Control (which has a good Vamps matchup) or UWr (which has a terrible Vamps matchups) why would you take the latter?
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If you're talking about Vamps + Tectonic Edge, I can see your point, otherwise the MU hasn't been all too terrible for my UWr.
How about the RDW MU for Chapin? Easily one of the worst MU's for that deck.
UWr. Earthquake can't always reliably sweep, and you reliance on smaller increments of CA and permission means that you pretty much lose to a resolved mind sludge, whereas tapout UW has the buffer of "look at my mind springs *****. look at them".
I'm running 3 and 3, also, Nocturni can't always reliably hit a black card. UWr can also counter a mind sludge. Perhaps I need to test more, but Vamps hasn't been too rough for either my UW or UWr.
Its super awkward, even if you aren't MDing flashfreeze and have negates. You have to counter mind sludge or they beat you. Having jaces and mind springs alleviates this a little, but its still brutal when it happens.
Forcing someone to burn 2 mana early in the game for a terminate on a cantrip creature is a huge win for you - almost a time walk. I know we're used to thinking about early mana as basically free, but when they spend turn 3 or 4 casting Terminate instead of Knight of the Reliquary or Bloodbraid Elf, you win. And if they cast the Bloodbraid Elf before the Terminate, your Wall of Omens effectively fogs for a turn.
Late game it doesn't often buy you a turn anymore (because having enough mana is relatively trivial), but it does up your odds of drawing the cards you actually need, because it cantrips, and if they happen to not have any removal, it can still fog some damage.
Wall of Omens:
Case 1: I play omens and it dies quickly to removal. In this case I have generated a slight (sometimes not at all) tempo swing and +1 card advantage (1 for 1 trade + cantrip)
Case 2: I play Wall of omes and it sticks around until I inevitably clear the board. Great Help to temp and creates card advantage of atelas +1 assuming you made them over commit.
Spreading Seas:
Case 1: They have a shakey mana base and the card helps shut them off. Tempo swing is huge and card advantage is +1 (cantrip and make removal dead)
Case 2:Their mana base is fine and spreading seas just cantrips. Little to no tempo swing but +1 card advantage.
So as you can see the various situations with each are almost identical. What we then need to do is think about which card combos better with the rest of the deck. I think it is spreading seas since it +tectonic are a great land disruption package and wall of omens combos only with Sweepers to force over commitment. Since the wall combo forces you to destroy the wall I find that land denial is the way to go.
That's exactly why you shouldn't be splashing red...
...how often to you Earthquake for more than 3? Not to mention that Wall of Omens replaces itself, so you're not losing anything by killing it with Earthquake... I'm sincerely shocked that people still can't understand this most basic of concepts.
And they've got a Gatekeeper waiting for your wall.
Why do people keep harping on about how good Perimeter Captain is? It's a complete and utter waste of a slot. It will not be played in any relevant deck successfully.
I played UWr for a good 4 months after Zendikar's release. It has a terrible matchup against Vampires. At BEST it's 40/60. [Traditional] UWr's theme is land denial, which doesn't do a thing against Vampires. Add to that recurring Bloodghasts, the threat of Mind Sludge ending the game for you, and Nighthawks/Gatekeepers making short work of your walls / sphinx, and Vampires are an uphill battle. You can tune your deck to beat them easier (purges, scatters, etc), but then your game is weaker against other decks.
I hardly see how saying RDW is a bad matchup for Chapin-UW is relevant to the discussion, but sure, that's a bad matchup for UW. Well done for pointing that out.
That's a really bad vacuum comparison of the two cards. Assuming your Case 1: Omens is supposed to compare to your Case 2: Seas, there is a vast difference between the two. If Spreading Seas has no effect, you gain a card, but don't actually affect your opponent in the slightest. Essentially, you just time walked yourself. In the Case 1 of the Wall of Omens, you've forced them to remove the wall, wasting their turn and time walking them. There is a huge, huge difference between the two.
The card advantage from playing this, me having to overextend a card or two more than I would otherwise, then being wrathed, is just really good.
Not game-winning-bomb kind of good, but its a definate advantage that I can do bascially *nothing* about. Playing more removal doesn't help. Playing more creatures doesn't help. Its a 2 mana 2 for 1.
Anything that cycles for two mana and does is worth *considering*, no matter how minimal the effect might seem, in my opinion. Have people already forgotton how spreading seas was overlooked because it didn't seem to do much? Stoneforge mystic? Card advantage really matters, especialy when attached to such cheap cards. I've been playing half-seriously for just a few months, and even I've worked that out.
And then along comes a card that very obviously does something agaisnt every aggro deck in the format...and apparently its not good enough. 2 mana, draw a card, gain 3+ life or time walk your opponent (probably) isn't good enough. I'm just amazed. Have the doubters ever played an aggro deck and figured out just why they lost to control? Haven't they noticed the annoying delays and effective life-gain from cards like this, spreading seas, and knight of the white orchid? Haven't they noticed how they gradually run out of cards in hand until its futile to play on?
Simply put, its all card advantage. It makes the (magic) world go round.
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2009-2010:Naya allies, Mono-White Titan Control
The matchup against Vamps / mono-black decks for UWr Control is awful, I don't see any point being coy about it. You have too many cards like Lightning Bolt, Earthquake and Ajani Vengeant that just do nothing to help you against that type of aggro. It's bad. I would heavily favor the Vamps player in that scenario, and it's made worse in more control-ish builds that will absolutely use Tectonic Edge + Grim Discovery to wreck your manabase, all while beating you down with bears.
Chapin Control has a rough RDW matchup, that's why I don't run Chapin Control. Pre-Eldrazi I was running 4-color control on the Spread 'Em core - RDW was my best matchup, literally the only way I could lose a game 2 or 3 (I actually never lost a game 2 or 3) was if I had to mulligan to 3 cards or something. RDW + B cannot deal with every cascade ending in Rhox War Monk, Kor Firewalker, Pithing Needle, etc... they hate it. When you drop a lifelink or lifegain every single turn, when you go "Captured Sunlight into Rhox War Monk" they're like "oh crap".
I have been testing UW Tap-Out and it's good enough against RDW that I question if RDW is even viable. Wall of Omens, Knight of the White-Orchid, Baneslayer Angel, Path to Exile, Celestial Purge, Flashfreeze, Negate.... GG? Even Game 1 is favorable because you have so many more creatures, and Gideon is just icing on the cake. You just go "Gideon: your creature spells don't hurt anymore".
Spike School
Spike doesn't think. Spike doesn't feel. Spike doesn't laugh or cry. All Spike does from dusk till dawn is make the Johnnys die
It's relevant in that I'd rather play UWr over UW vs RDW as other's have said they'd rather play UW over UWr vs Vampires. I'm surprised that simple little nugget of knowledge slipped by your thread-relevancy-scanner as being unrelated to the discussion. Perhaps your sensors need an upgrade, duder?
All I've been seeing lately is bRDW splash for the manlands, term, and blightning. This MU isn't so rough with UWr. Wall of Denial is slightly better than Wall of Omens in this MU from what I've tested in that color base.
As for UW tap out, Knight of the White Orcard and Wall of Omens is pretty sick, epecially with a resolved Baneslayer. Only thing I phear is the Searing Blaze on the Knight, but by then it might not matter.
I disagree almost entirely. I was running UWr at FNM all during Worldwake against a meta with about 16 vamps players. Granted, a few of them were terrible players, but there were a couple that are fantastic MtG players.
Eventually I tweaked UWr to take advantage of this and drove Vamps out of my meta almost single handedly. They can't handle Obelisk of Alara, which was some awesome tech if they ever infect your meta like they did mine. Swerve is great too. I also disagree that the cards you mentioned don't do anything against them. Ajani Vengeant is excellent against them, Lightning Bolt kills everything that isn't a Bloodwitch and she should never hit the table (unless you have the DoJ), and Earthquake is pretty good against those bears you were mentioning.
After board you have Purge, Swerve, and White Knights if you need them. I never lose to Vamps. If you run Wall of Denial then I can see why Vamps would trouble you, but drop it and you'll see that Vamps is just too terrible for Tier 1.
The vamps matchup shouldn't be too hard with 3DoJ and 2 Martial Coup.
Jund is the only deck that is difficult against my deckbuild. Blightning and Cascade. gbr having more card advantage than uw(r), that's insane.
So thats my two cents on the red splash. I have never been tempted to go straight UW.
-Squee (my friend's nickname, not the goblin.)
Favorite EDH Decks:
RBG Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
W Kemba, Kha Regent
R Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker
Emmara Tandris