In short, Gideon's first 2 abilities have little to no synergy with standard decks and his last ability is like a less nasty version of Baneslayer.
I could see how this might be hard to see for Control, but there is the deck called White Weenie that's doing pretty well. Cause my opponent to lose all his blockers so I can swing in for the win sounds like a good thing to me.
UW control is near worst-case for playing Gideon. I do not buy the idea that Gideon slots into control decks. Gideon makes creature decks dominate other creature decks.
Wait, what?
Gideon doesn't block. And he doesn't target, so pro-white doesnt matter. And just using his +2 once should often justify the 5 casting cost, and the fact is the majority of those creatures will take two swings to kill him unless you're WAY behind on the board.
Oh ☺☺☺☺ I didn't even notice that it was only until the end of that turn. I thought it was end of next turn... Well then since he can't block at all I'd say he's even worse than my original assumption. Taking Baneslayer out for him is not a wise choice and neither is upping your mana curve so it seems like he has no home.
1) His cost. My rule of thumb is that if a 'walker costs more than 4 CMC they likely won't see significant competitive play in T2. Think about it, Sorin, Bolas, Lilliana, Ablaze, Nalaar - too slow.
This is ridiculous. If Jace cost 3UU, he would still see competitive play in Standard, wouldn't he? He would still be an excellent card. Perhaps not an automatic shoo-in to every blue deck in the format, and perhaps in in 4-ofs, but he would still be present.
This is ridiculous. If Jace cost 3UU, he would still see competitive play in Standard, wouldn't he? He would still be an excellent card. Perhaps not an automatic shoo-in to every blue deck in the format, and perhaps in in 4-ofs, but he would still be present.
It's not ridiculous. 4CMC seems to be the sweet spot for Planeswalkers.
However, just like LSV said, Gideon may be the exception as he shares many of the same qualities that the current top planeswalkers have.
U/W Control is all about maintaining a superior board presence while improving card advantage. That is what Jace does. That is what Elspeth does. That is what Gideon does.
A Control Deck has a realistic answer to every threat that you are going to play, they just need the time to find it and play it. Gideon gives you that time. His +2 ability extends the game and protects your life total, while the -2 ability cleans up the mess and forces your opponent to over commit to the board. This sets up "X for 1" opportunities that Control will capitalize and exploit to thier advantage. His 0 ability will only be used to finish the game as a "formality" after control has an insurmontable advantage.
Gideon Jura sir, is the definition of synergy with what white based control is trying to accomplish.
So essentially he's doing for 5 mana what a Holy Day does? Assuming he survives the use of his +2 ability, he will die with his -2 ability so you better pick something worthwhile. Gideon does nothing new for control than what it already has. They have removal (best in standard actually), they have chump blockers, they have damage prevention, and they have win conditions.
I could see how this might be hard to see for Control, but there is the deck called White Weenie that's doing pretty well. Cause my opponent to lose all his blockers so I can swing in for the win sounds like a good thing to me.
In a mirror matchup I could see how it would be advantageous over other cards, but for the most part, Baneslayer Angel or Martial Coup does it better.
This is ridiculous. If Jace cost 3UU, he would still see competitive play in Standard, wouldn't he? He would still be an excellent card. Perhaps not an automatic shoo-in to every blue deck in the format, and perhaps in in 4-ofs, but he would still be present.
Jace would be right on that border of being too slow to be useful if his cost was 5 instead of 4. That's why you rarely see him outside of Standard, and never seem him outside of Non-Standard, Non-Faeries. Seeing as he's tight-casted as is, making him slower (5th turn being a prime turn when heavy aggro decks/combo decks are swinging in for a kill) by that one turn would make him substantially less usable.
I could see how this might be hard to see for Control, but there is the deck called White Weenie that's doing pretty well. Cause my opponent to lose all his blockers so I can swing in for the win sounds like a good thing to me.
I think I'd rather play a 1 mana instant that also saves my guys from removal and is active the turn I play it than a 5 mana planeswalker that gives my opponents a turn to find an out.
But then again I'm an old school aggro player who hates all this mid range crap.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
Oh ☺☺☺☺ I didn't even notice that it was only until the end of that turn. I thought it was end of next turn... Well then since he can't block at all I'd say he's even worse than my original assumption. Taking Baneslayer out for him is not a wise choice and neither is upping your mana curve so it seems like he has no home.
I don't think you're playing him correctly or playing against people who know how to play correctly. Gideon is a beast to deal with and fits perfectly in Control. Yes, he can die. But he can also completely dominate a board. He isn't meant to be a blockers. He can soak up damage that would have normally gone to you or other Planeswalkers. Or he can destroy tapped creatures. Or he can beat.
No one is saying to take out Baneslayers. But taking out Elspeth for Gideon is probably a good idea.
I think I'd rather play a 1 mana instant that also saves my guys from removal and is active the turn I play it than a 5 mana planeswalker that gives my opponents a turn to find an out.
But then again I'm an old school aggro player who hates all this mid range crap.
Does that 1 mana instant also beat for 6 while dodging a lot of removal? And destroy tapped creatures?
I don't think you're playing him correctly or playing against people who know how to play correctly. Gideon is a beast to deal with and fits perfectly in Control. Yes, he can die. But he can also completely dominate a board. He isn't meant to be a blockers. He can soak up damage that would have normally gone to you or other Planeswalkers. Or he can destroy tapped creatures. Or he can beat.
No one is saying to take out Baneslayers. But taking out Elspeth for Gideon is probably a good idea.
I hope they would drop Elspeth, Knight-Errant for him. Up their mana curve and get rid of a big threat/win condition. He will only "completely dominate a board" in a matchup against a slower aggro deck (Elfdrazi, White Weenie, etc). Any other deck either he's too slow to capitalize on, his abilities don't help their matchup on, or he gives the deck better game against a deck that it already has a good matchup against anyhow. Sounds like a win more card to me...
Does that 1 mana instant also beat for 6 while dodging a lot of removal? And destroy tapped creatures?
Cause you know that Assassinate and Royal Assassin were such beast cards during their time. It seems nice but how often are you going to use it at a time when it will make a difference? Maybe on a Nocturnus or a Baneslayer if they are silly enough to drop either of those without some kind of backup in their hand or are not able to come up with an answer for Gideon the next turn either.
I see him as going the route of Nissa Revane. He will be popular at first because he looks *****in' on paper, and he may even take a few top spots in the next tournament or two; but once people are over the initial surprise of encountering something new they'll either figure out an answer for him with their decklist already or patch in a minor change that supplies an answer for him.
Does that 1 mana instant also beat for 6 while dodging a lot of removal? And destroy tapped creatures?
Not to mention the fact that Gideon also allows me to setup unfair trades giving me a stronger board position. He can kill Baneslayer the most notorious Flying creature in the meta, and tells Bloodwitch to move out of the way.
This is ridiculous. If Jace cost 3UU, he would still see competitive play in Standard, wouldn't he? He would still be an excellent card. Perhaps not an automatic shoo-in to every blue deck in the format, and perhaps in in 4-ofs, but he would still be present.
It's really not. I'm basing my opinion on trends. Is it not a fact that all competitive 'walkers have been 4 cmc or less? And even still, I explicitly say "likely" and "rule of thumb", by no means are those indicative of a stern opinionated/speculative conclusion. I also made the point that my intention was not to make any final judgment on the card, but point out two obvious traits that are disadvantageous. I never said Gideon is bad because of points #1 and #2.
Overall though, I think he's going to be great - a fair card with incredible potential if left unchecked. His design is suitable for a turn 5 play. He's a finisher, and he comes out somewhat early by finisher-standards. Speculatively speaking here, I highly doubt he'll be a 4-of in any deck, but he has his applications in aggro, mid-range and control. He's a very versatile planeswalker.
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
If they are saving their counters to keep Gideon alive, even better for me. He acts as a 5 drop sleep for one turn. If his first ability doesn't kill him, then it seems to me like it wasn't needed to keep you alive in the first place. His second may be useful for certain board controlling creatures, but has ever had problems with board controlling creatures prior to Gideon? Pretty much the only argument is he allows a 6th turn board wipe and smack for 6 damage. Maybe if you had Basilisk Collar out and equipped him with it then it would be profoundly better than Baneslayer Angel, other than that; the advantages he gives that Baneslayer doesn't do better seems to be only decent in unlikely and specific scenarios that happen very rarely.
8 Damage is a lot of damage to deal in one round against control. Not to mention some of that damage can get blocked by a card like baneslayer thus killing their chump blockers and giving you life.
He still did more than Baneslayer did in less time at that point. All i'm sayin.
Last I checked, Gideon takes two more mana than the good Man-Lands to use Gideon. Man lands can't be taken out by Vampire Hexmage, Oblivion Ring, and can't be hit by any selective discard spells. The only card Man-Lands are susceptible to, that Gideon is not, is Smother but it's a favorable scenario in which to find yourself for the most part.
Well then they're wasting removal on him. But if he stays (which is more likely than most creatures, i hate to tell you) he'll win the game for you. And plus you don't lose a land if your manland dies, and Gideon can be played with a man-land without having to pay a cost. Not to mention you won't lose a land if he dies.
Good. 8 loyalty counters gone means i didn't take 8 damage. That saved me life, although it might not be technically lifegain. So yes, you are missing something huge.
In short, Gideon's first 2 abilities have little to no synergy with standard decks and his last ability is like a less nasty version of Baneslayer.
Yes, how could i fit an Alpha-striking-removal-planeswalker-that-turns-into-a-6/6-threat-that-doesn't-die-to-Day-of-Judgment
no control deck would want any of those things. /sarcasm
I see him as going the route of Nissa Revane. He will be popular at first because he looks *****in' on paper, and he may even take a few top spots in the next tournament or two; but once people are over the initial surprise of encountering something new they'll either figure out an answer for him with their decklist already or patch in a minor change that supplies an answer for him.
You really can't compare the two. Nissa is only as strong as the elves around her and she did see play. Gideon is more like Garruk. Hes a good card that dies quickly, makes a clear impact however and every deck that can make room for him in their curve will.
Doesn't this midrange trend mean 4-6cc drops finally see constructed play? The 4cc planeswalker comment is funny! This is the first standard environment in which it's safe to assume the 5cc you just dropped can last a few turns to win you the game - as opposed to the foam-at-the-mouth aggro seen years ago in which 4cc seemed too slow unless it immediately guaranteed victory.
Gideon is a tool that emphasizes defensive exchanges. Imagine not having to worry about your life total for your opponent's next attack while you set up your blocks how you want to gain board advantage. Creatures are at greatest risk in combat (esp. vs white), and with no life loss for the defender as an upside to the exchange, the aggro player will almost always lose the advantage after one of these exchanges. Also, triggers like on Nemesis of Reason won't work. Holy Day doesn't stop effects like that at all. Bear in mind however this card doesn't play itself; you need to skillfully use it for best results. (Lookin' at Jund here...)
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^I don't know about you, but I don't find this Standard particularly slow, and I haven't seen a 5 cmc 'walker be of much use in the current T2 either. Sure, it's mid-range heavy, but the environment is still on the faster side of a mid-range heavy meta.
Consider each competitive deck in standard now, add 1 to the cost of all the competitive planeswalkers used in those decks and with maybe the exception of Jace2.0, I feel their impact would be disproportionately reduced to a great degree. Now, if you want to talk about a slow post-Alara T2, well then, Gideon gets a whole lot better doesn't he?
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
I see him as going the route of Nissa Revane. He will be popular at first because he looks *****in' on paper, and he may even take a few top spots in the next tournament or two; but once people are over the initial surprise of encountering something new they'll either figure out an answer for him with their decklist already or patch in a minor change that supplies an answer for him.
Nissa:
Starts at 2, going to 3 (aka still Blightning/Bolt able)
One effective ability
Playable in one archetype
Gideon:
Starts at 6, going to 8 (8??!?!?)
Three effective abilities
Playable in multiple archetypes
Gideon >>>>> Nissa. But I'll gladly buy any Gideons you get at Nissa prices if you want.
If they are saving their counters to keep Gideon alive, even better for me. He acts as a 5 drop sleep for one turn. If his first ability doesn't kill him, then it seems to me like it wasn't needed to keep you alive in the first place. His second may be useful for certain board controlling creatures, but has ever had problems with board controlling creatures prior to Gideon? Pretty much the only argument is he allows a 6th turn board wipe and smack for 6 damage. Maybe if you had Basilisk Collar out and equipped him with it then it would be profoundly better than Baneslayer Angel, other than that; the advantages he gives that Baneslayer doesn't do better seems to be only decent in unlikely and specific scenarios that happen very rarely.
8 Damage is a lot of damage to deal in one round against control. and then he at least saved you from 8+ damage.
He still did more than Baneslayer did in less time at that point. All i'm sayin.
Last I checked, Gideon takes two more mana than the good Man-Lands to use Gideon. Man lands can't be taken out by Vampire Hexmage, Oblivion Ring, and can't be hit by any selective discard spells. The only card Man-Lands are susceptible to, that Gideon is not, is Smother but it's a favorable scenario in which to find yourself for the most part.
Well then they're wasting removal on him. But if he stays (which is more likely than most creatures, i hate to tell you) he'll win the game for you. And plus you don't lose a land if your manland dies, and Gideon can be played with a man-land without having to pay a cost. Not to mention you won't lose a land if he dies.
The three abilities Fog/Hitme, 6/6 for 0 or Assasinate are abilities on actually printed cards. The fact that these abilities are printed on a 5 CMC walker really doesnt warrant the $$ it has, the cards its abilities represent are $5 a play set for the whole lot. Two of them are barely Limited(Draft) playable.... if you catch my drift.
8 Damage is a lot of damage to deal in one round against control. and then he at least saved you from 8+ damage.
He still did more than Baneslayer did in less time at that point. All i'm sayin.
Baneslayer stopped that damage and gained you 5 life. If it didn't stop all the damage (swing more than one creature) they stopped at least 4 of that damage and still gained you 5 life and lived to do so again the next turn. Which means even if they swing in for 8 again, each time you will be netting 1 life, doing more than negating 8 dmg for one turn.
Well then they're wasting removal on him. But if he stays (which is more likely than most creatures, i hate to tell you) he'll win the game for you. And plus you don't lose a land if your manland dies, and Gideon can be played with a man-land without having to pay a cost. Not to mention you won't lose a land if he dies.
At the point when a control deck is swinging with a man-land, chances are the one less land won't hurt them. But are you seriously trying to argue that using removal on a man-land is equivalent to using mana on a 6/6 indestructible creature?
Good. 8 loyalty counters gone means i didn't take 8 damage
Rest for the Weary
And it saves you 3 extra mana to do whatever, even play a 2nd one.
Yes, how could i fit an Alpha-striking-removal-planeswalker-that-turns-into-a-6/6-threat-that-doesn't-die-to-Day-of-Judgment
no control deck would want any of those things. /sarcasm
Because control decks didn't already have creature hate and most control players didn't run Martial Coup (which does the same thing as Day of Judgment and Gideon). And control decks certainly weren't T1 already, meaning that perhaps little need be changed, and they certainly didn't have some big beat-stick that could gain you life (which Gideon can't) and chump most anything in standard you will see... If only control had something like Baneslayer Angel then they'd be T1 deck..
Baneslayer stopped that damage and gained you 5 life. If it didn't stop all the damage (swing more than one creature) they stopped at least 4 of that damage and still gained you 5 life and lived to do so again the next turn. Which means even if they swing in for 8 again, each time you will be netting 1 life, doing more than negating 8 dmg for one turn.
Except BSA has a high chance of eating a Doomblade and then your opponent alpha strikes you FTW. Gideon has much higher chances of seeing your next untap step alive.
Except BSA has a high chance of eating a Doomblade and then your opponent alpha strikes you FTW. Gideon has much higher chances of seeing your next untap step alive.
Implying that exact same scenario can't happen to Gideon as well.
You cant break down the planeswalker's ability and say that taking 8 dmg is like rest for the weary or his -2 ability is like royal assassin's.
Why would u play rest for weary which doesnt give you the option of
1.) beating with a 6/6 indestructible
2.) removing creatures?
and seriously...rest of the weary is far from Gideon, by that argument:
why would you play Jace 2.0 just play unsummon which leaves 3 mana untapped to do whatever, even play a 2nd one. OR why play Jace 2.0 at all, he only soaks up 5 dmg, instead of gideon's 8? Oo
The fact is he provides ALL the abilities in one card, you don't have to have 4 royal assassins, 4 sleeps and 4 6/6 creatures in your deck. I mean breaking it down to bare essentials, 5cmc for a 6/6 indestructible is quite worth it, tacking on re-usable removal and fog/sleep is even better.
Furthermore, that 6/6 indestructible seems pretty good, while there is path and O-ring in the format currently, after rotation, if he cant be killed by sorceries....what instant "exile target creature" is left in the format?
- cant be killed by any sweeper
- cant be hit by removal
- cant be killed in combat
(there is hexmage, but that is in mono-black, so 1 deck that can deal with him?)
while he can be chump blocked all day, its something the opponent HAS to deal with each turn, and it doesn't cost you 5 mana like the man lands.
Bash for 6/6 indestructible, second main play Baneslayer
OR
Bash for 4/4 flying, vigilance, 2 mana untapped...pass?
I'm not saying don't play man-lands, but Gideon is far from a bad card.
In addition, being a 5cmc is not a bad thing. Just b/c he takes the slot of Baneslayer, does not warrant him to be worse. Would you rather they print Gideon at 6cmc so wizards made the decision for you of which to play first?
I know you can't really compare the 2, but if you do, although Gideon isnt an efficient beater compared to BSA, it definitely provides more options than Baneslayer while still being a beatstick.
Gideon's 3 abilities combined as play sets are under $5 total. And that is why he is worth nearly 40. Wait... What?
Edit: Helix is actually 3 each, Prisim $.50 each, Armageddom at least 4.50 each.
so Ajani is closer to $29.
this is pretty much by far the worst way to judge a card if i ever seen one, 12 cards that does similar things and add the price to see how good it is? ... i know its not your idea but this is just wrong for so many reasons.
You cant break down the planeswalker's ability and say that taking 8 dmg is like rest for the weary or his -2 ability is like royal assassin's.
Why would u play rest for weary which doesnt give you the option of
1.) beating with a 6/6 indestructible
2.) removing creatures?
and seriously...rest of the weary is far from Gideon, by that argument:
why would you play Jace 2.0 just play unsummon which leaves 3 mana untapped to do whatever, even play a 2nd one. OR why play Jace 2.0 at all, he only soaks up 5 dmg, instead of gideon's 8? Oo
The fact is he provides ALL the abilities in one card, you don't have to have 4 royal assassins, 4 sleeps and 4 6/6 creatures in your deck. I mean breaking it down to bare essentials, 5cmc for a 6/6 indestructible is quite worth it, tacking on re-usable removal and fog/sleep is even better.
Furthermore, that 6/6 indestructible seems pretty good, while there is path and O-ring in the format currently, after rotation, if he cant be killed by sorceries....what instant "exile target creature" is left in the format?
- cant be killed by any sweeper
- cant be hit by removal
- cant be killed in combat
(there is hexmage, but that is in mono-black, so 1 deck that can deal with him?)
while he can be chump blocked all day, its something the opponent HAS to deal with each turn, and it doesn't cost you 5 mana like the man lands.
Bash for 6/6 indestructible, second main play Baneslayer
OR
Bash for 4/4 flying, vigilance, 2 mana untapped...pass?
I'm not saying don't play man-lands, but Gideon is far from a bad card.
In addition, being a 5cmc is not a bad thing. Just b/c he takes the slot of Baneslayer, does not warrant him to be worse. Would you rather they print Gideon at 6cmc so wizards made the decision for you of which to play first?
I know you can't really compare the 2, but if you do, although Gideon isnt an efficient beater compared to BSA, it definitely provides more options than Baneslayer while still being a beatstick.
well he can be hit by some removal at instant speed and not red. his +2 is WAY better than some people give it credit for to. Tap everything down and make the blocks you want? it does good things.
Baneslayer stopped that damage and gained you 5 life. If it didn't stop all the damage (swing more than one creature) they stopped at least 4 of that damage and still gained you 5 life and lived to do so again the next turn. Which means even if they swing in for 8 again, each time you will be netting 1 life, doing more than negating 8 dmg for one turn.
At the point when a control deck is swinging with a man-land, chances are the one less land won't hurt them. But are you seriously trying to argue that using removal on a man-land is equivalent to using mana on a 6/6 indestructible creature?
Rest for the Weary
And it saves you 3 extra mana to do whatever, even play a 2nd one.
Because control decks didn't already have creature hate and most control players didn't run Martial Coup (which does the same thing as Day of Judgment and Gideon). And control decks certainly weren't T1 already, meaning that perhaps little need be changed, and they certainly didn't have some big beat-stick that could gain you life (which Gideon can't) and chump most anything in standard you will see... If only control had something like Baneslayer Angel then they'd be T1 deck..
Yea sure, the fact that all those cards can do what he does for cheaper is fine and all, but the fact that he's all in one is what makes him good.
He's a good card, not great, not better than Elspeth, but I see him as a 2 of in a couple of white decks.
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I could see how this might be hard to see for Control, but there is the deck called White Weenie that's doing pretty well. Cause my opponent to lose all his blockers so I can swing in for the win sounds like a good thing to me.
Standard
WUW/U HumansUW
Modern
WBW/B TokensBW
Oh ☺☺☺☺ I didn't even notice that it was only until the end of that turn. I thought it was end of next turn... Well then since he can't block at all I'd say he's even worse than my original assumption. Taking Baneslayer out for him is not a wise choice and neither is upping your mana curve so it seems like he has no home.
This is ridiculous. If Jace cost 3UU, he would still see competitive play in Standard, wouldn't he? He would still be an excellent card. Perhaps not an automatic shoo-in to every blue deck in the format, and perhaps in in 4-ofs, but he would still be present.
It's not ridiculous. 4CMC seems to be the sweet spot for Planeswalkers.
However, just like LSV said, Gideon may be the exception as he shares many of the same qualities that the current top planeswalkers have.
So essentially he's doing for 5 mana what a Holy Day does? Assuming he survives the use of his +2 ability, he will die with his -2 ability so you better pick something worthwhile. Gideon does nothing new for control than what it already has. They have removal (best in standard actually), they have chump blockers, they have damage prevention, and they have win conditions.
In a mirror matchup I could see how it would be advantageous over other cards, but for the most part, Baneslayer Angel or Martial Coup does it better.
Jace would be right on that border of being too slow to be useful if his cost was 5 instead of 4. That's why you rarely see him outside of Standard, and never seem him outside of Non-Standard, Non-Faeries. Seeing as he's tight-casted as is, making him slower (5th turn being a prime turn when heavy aggro decks/combo decks are swinging in for a kill) by that one turn would make him substantially less usable.
I think I'd rather play a 1 mana instant that also saves my guys from removal and is active the turn I play it than a 5 mana planeswalker that gives my opponents a turn to find an out.
But then again I'm an old school aggro player who hates all this mid range crap.
I don't think you're playing him correctly or playing against people who know how to play correctly. Gideon is a beast to deal with and fits perfectly in Control. Yes, he can die. But he can also completely dominate a board. He isn't meant to be a blockers. He can soak up damage that would have normally gone to you or other Planeswalkers. Or he can destroy tapped creatures. Or he can beat.
No one is saying to take out Baneslayers. But taking out Elspeth for Gideon is probably a good idea.
Does that 1 mana instant also beat for 6 while dodging a lot of removal? And destroy tapped creatures?
I hope they would drop Elspeth, Knight-Errant for him. Up their mana curve and get rid of a big threat/win condition. He will only "completely dominate a board" in a matchup against a slower aggro deck (Elfdrazi, White Weenie, etc). Any other deck either he's too slow to capitalize on, his abilities don't help their matchup on, or he gives the deck better game against a deck that it already has a good matchup against anyhow. Sounds like a win more card to me...
Cause you know that Assassinate and Royal Assassin were such beast cards during their time. It seems nice but how often are you going to use it at a time when it will make a difference? Maybe on a Nocturnus or a Baneslayer if they are silly enough to drop either of those without some kind of backup in their hand or are not able to come up with an answer for Gideon the next turn either.
I see him as going the route of Nissa Revane. He will be popular at first because he looks *****in' on paper, and he may even take a few top spots in the next tournament or two; but once people are over the initial surprise of encountering something new they'll either figure out an answer for him with their decklist already or patch in a minor change that supplies an answer for him.
Not to mention the fact that Gideon also allows me to setup unfair trades giving me a stronger board position. He can kill Baneslayer the most notorious Flying creature in the meta, and tells Bloodwitch to move out of the way.
Standard
WUW/U HumansUW
Modern
WBW/B TokensBW
It's really not. I'm basing my opinion on trends. Is it not a fact that all competitive 'walkers have been 4 cmc or less? And even still, I explicitly say "likely" and "rule of thumb", by no means are those indicative of a stern opinionated/speculative conclusion. I also made the point that my intention was not to make any final judgment on the card, but point out two obvious traits that are disadvantageous. I never said Gideon is bad because of points #1 and #2.
Overall though, I think he's going to be great - a fair card with incredible potential if left unchecked. His design is suitable for a turn 5 play. He's a finisher, and he comes out somewhat early by finisher-standards. Speculatively speaking here, I highly doubt he'll be a 4-of in any deck, but he has his applications in aggro, mid-range and control. He's a very versatile planeswalker.
WUBRG
8 Damage is a lot of damage to deal in one round against control. Not to mention some of that damage can get blocked by a card like baneslayer thus killing their chump blockers and giving you life.
He still did more than Baneslayer did in less time at that point. All i'm sayin.
Well then they're wasting removal on him. But if he stays (which is more likely than most creatures, i hate to tell you) he'll win the game for you. And plus you don't lose a land if your manland dies, and Gideon can be played with a man-land without having to pay a cost. Not to mention you won't lose a land if he dies.
Good. 8 loyalty counters gone means i didn't take 8 damage. That saved me life, although it might not be technically lifegain. So yes, you are missing something huge.
Yes, how could i fit an Alpha-striking-removal-planeswalker-that-turns-into-a-6/6-threat-that-doesn't-die-to-Day-of-Judgment
no control deck would want any of those things. /sarcasm
You really can't compare the two. Nissa is only as strong as the elves around her and she did see play. Gideon is more like Garruk. Hes a good card that dies quickly, makes a clear impact however and every deck that can make room for him in their curve will.
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
Gideon is a tool that emphasizes defensive exchanges. Imagine not having to worry about your life total for your opponent's next attack while you set up your blocks how you want to gain board advantage. Creatures are at greatest risk in combat (esp. vs white), and with no life loss for the defender as an upside to the exchange, the aggro player will almost always lose the advantage after one of these exchanges. Also, triggers like on Nemesis of Reason won't work. Holy Day doesn't stop effects like that at all. Bear in mind however this card doesn't play itself; you need to skillfully use it for best results. (Lookin' at Jund here...)
Consider each competitive deck in standard now, add 1 to the cost of all the competitive planeswalkers used in those decks and with maybe the exception of Jace2.0, I feel their impact would be disproportionately reduced to a great degree. Now, if you want to talk about a slow post-Alara T2, well then, Gideon gets a whole lot better doesn't he?
What's wrong with running both?
WUBRG
Nissa:
Starts at 2, going to 3 (aka still Blightning/Bolt able)
One effective ability
Playable in one archetype
Gideon:
Starts at 6, going to 8 (8??!?!?)
Three effective abilities
Playable in multiple archetypes
Gideon >>>>> Nissa. But I'll gladly buy any Gideons you get at Nissa prices if you want.
8 Damage is a lot of damage to deal in one round against control. and then he at least saved you from 8+ damage.
He still did more than Baneslayer did in less time at that point. All i'm sayin.
Well then they're wasting removal on him. But if he stays (which is more likely than most creatures, i hate to tell you) he'll win the game for you. And plus you don't lose a land if your manland dies, and Gideon can be played with a man-land without having to pay a cost. Not to mention you won't lose a land if he dies.
Good. 8 loyalty counters gone means i didn't take 8 damage
Yes, how could i fit an Alpha-striking-removal-planeswalker-that-turns-into-a-6/6-threat-that-doesn't-die-to-Day-of-Judgment
no control deck would want any of those things. /sarcasm
Lightning Helix = $1
Amber Prison = $1
Armageddon = $3
Total = $5
Baneslayer stopped that damage and gained you 5 life. If it didn't stop all the damage (swing more than one creature) they stopped at least 4 of that damage and still gained you 5 life and lived to do so again the next turn. Which means even if they swing in for 8 again, each time you will be netting 1 life, doing more than negating 8 dmg for one turn.
At the point when a control deck is swinging with a man-land, chances are the one less land won't hurt them. But are you seriously trying to argue that using removal on a man-land is equivalent to using mana on a 6/6 indestructible creature?
Rest for the Weary
And it saves you 3 extra mana to do whatever, even play a 2nd one.
Because control decks didn't already have creature hate and most control players didn't run Martial Coup (which does the same thing as Day of Judgment and Gideon). And control decks certainly weren't T1 already, meaning that perhaps little need be changed, and they certainly didn't have some big beat-stick that could gain you life (which Gideon can't) and chump most anything in standard you will see... If only control had something like Baneslayer Angel then they'd be T1 deck..
Except BSA has a high chance of eating a Doomblade and then your opponent alpha strikes you FTW. Gideon has much higher chances of seeing your next untap step alive.
Implying that exact same scenario can't happen to Gideon as well.
He said playset.
$4
+ $4
+ $12
--------
$20
Ajani Vengeant is only 8-12.
Gideon's 3 abilities combined as play sets are under $5 total. And that is why he is worth nearly 40. Wait... What?
Edit: Helix is actually 3 each, Prisim $.50 each, Armageddom at least 4.50 each.
so Ajani is closer to $29.
Why would u play rest for weary which doesnt give you the option of
1.) beating with a 6/6 indestructible
2.) removing creatures?
and seriously...rest of the weary is far from Gideon, by that argument:
why would you play Jace 2.0 just play unsummon which leaves 3 mana untapped to do whatever, even play a 2nd one. OR why play Jace 2.0 at all, he only soaks up 5 dmg, instead of gideon's 8? Oo
The fact is he provides ALL the abilities in one card, you don't have to have 4 royal assassins, 4 sleeps and 4 6/6 creatures in your deck. I mean breaking it down to bare essentials, 5cmc for a 6/6 indestructible is quite worth it, tacking on re-usable removal and fog/sleep is even better.
Furthermore, that 6/6 indestructible seems pretty good, while there is path and O-ring in the format currently, after rotation, if he cant be killed by sorceries....what instant "exile target creature" is left in the format?
- cant be killed by any sweeper
- cant be hit by removal
- cant be killed in combat
(there is hexmage, but that is in mono-black, so 1 deck that can deal with him?)
while he can be chump blocked all day, its something the opponent HAS to deal with each turn, and it doesn't cost you 5 mana like the man lands.
Bash for 6/6 indestructible, second main play Baneslayer
OR
Bash for 4/4 flying, vigilance, 2 mana untapped...pass?
I'm not saying don't play man-lands, but Gideon is far from a bad card.
In addition, being a 5cmc is not a bad thing. Just b/c he takes the slot of Baneslayer, does not warrant him to be worse. Would you rather they print Gideon at 6cmc so wizards made the decision for you of which to play first?
I know you can't really compare the 2, but if you do, although Gideon isnt an efficient beater compared to BSA, it definitely provides more options than Baneslayer while still being a beatstick.
I can fog AND leave your opponent open for an attack. I can then kill things. Anything big or small. I can also hit for 6 and I cost 5.
Why is this not good? Why is it plausible to look at that and say its at all bad?
this is pretty much by far the worst way to judge a card if i ever seen one, 12 cards that does similar things and add the price to see how good it is? ... i know its not your idea but this is just wrong for so many reasons.
well he can be hit by some removal at instant speed and not red. his +2 is WAY better than some people give it credit for to. Tap everything down and make the blocks you want? it does good things.
Yea sure, the fact that all those cards can do what he does for cheaper is fine and all, but the fact that he's all in one is what makes him good.
He's a good card, not great, not better than Elspeth, but I see him as a 2 of in a couple of white decks.