IMO the only good Ally deck is the Naya one from MTGO/Brussels. It has the speed that other Ally decks lack, and is more focused on just straight beatdown as opposed to cute tricks, which many ally decks tend to do. I've done a lot of testing against Jund, and so far we've found it to essentially just be a coin flip matchup, which is more than can be said for a lot of decks. The only thing I've found really hard was Ionamorph, because we have little to no ways of stopping the combo.
Thats strange. Especially considering how fast Naya biuld is. If you have trouble beating Ionamorph with it, well then I assume you must be having terrible luck with allys.
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It's not smart to say that MTGO and FNM are comparable. They are not. Generally, the metagame on MTGO is two weeks ahead of paper magic. That's why you start seeing good decks pop up there first, then you see them do well in major tournaments.
The meta on MTGO evolves in different directions than the meta in paper MTG because of a number of factors, and in reality many of the decks that were doing well in daily events, that people expected to dominate the next big tournaments, turn around and lose horribly.
Following MTGO is a good habit to be in so you don't miss something, but the people who take it as being on the same skill level, or "ahead" of paper MTG are simply incorrect. It's different, not better or worse, it's just another tool to use and what you get out of it is going to depend on your own skill level, and your ability to recognize what's going on.
Allys is a good deck where people are surprised, but if you think you're the only person who follows Daily events, you'll be surprised when you show up at a physical tournament and get crushed, absolutely crushed.
Once alara rotates out those answers will disapear. PtE, Terminate, Pulse, and lots of the most efficient removal in the format that is holding allies back will disapeer.
For Jund, but white decks are in stronger and stronger positions to fight Aggro. Since Allys will get exactly 0 new creatures from here on out, it's also pretty "set and lock" as being at whatever power level its at. Wizards didn't print another slivers
The meta on MTGO evolves in different directions than the meta in paper MTG because of a number of factors, and in reality many of the decks that were doing well in daily events, that people expected to dominate the next big tournaments, turn around and lose horribly.
Following MTGO is a good habit to be in so you don't miss something, but the people who take it as being on the same skill level, or "ahead" of paper MTG are simply incorrect. It's different, not better or worse, it's just another tool to use and what you get out of it is going to depend on your own skill level, and your ability to recognize what's going on.
Allys is a good deck where people are surprised, but if you think you're the only person who follows Daily events, you'll be surprised when you show up at a physical tournament and get crushed, absolutely crushed.
For Jund, but white decks are in stronger and stronger positions to fight Aggro. Since Allys will get exactly 0 new creatures from here on out, it's also pretty "set and lock" as being at whatever power level its at. Wizards didn't print another slivers
How so? They are losing path to exile. I mean they have board wipe, but... thats always been a problem.
Yeah, the bastards at wizards thought it would be cool not to print allys in Rise.
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Allies I think are a sort of suboptimal choice when you look at current meta, full of some of the best removal spells of all time. Take a look at some other creature heavy decks (Mythic, WW). They both don't need a lot of creatures to stay in the game. A few lucky drops (Baneslayer, Rhox War Monk, Firewalker)that don't get removed can deal massive amount of damage. Allies can't say that.
To add to that problem Allies are in all 5 colors, leading to the lack of allies in one or two colors making the other creatures in the deck a little worse.
Allies I think are a sort of suboptimal choice when you look at current meta, full of some of the best removal spells of all time. Take a look at some other creature heavy decks (Mythic, WW). They both don't need a lot of creatures to stay in the game. A few lucky drops (Baneslayer, Rhox War Monk, Firewalker)that don't get removed can deal massive amount of damage. Allies can't say that.
To add to that problem Allies are in all 5 colors, leading to the lack of allies in one or two colors making the other creatures in the deck a little worse.
Mono White is okay at the moment, and if they don't reprint any crazy removal, then it will get crazy good.
It seems most of the poeple that think mono white suck haven't really learned to play it. I know this may sound arrogant, but I have probably played mono white more than anyone on this board. Finding the right biuld and right plays are deceptively difficult with mono white allys.
There are a few obviose choices, like luminarch in the side against control. but there are a lot of difficult ones. Like wether or not to run a 2/2 split between dread statuaries and sky ruins, or make it a 3/1 split. Or how about running Sejiri Steppes? Is the added pro worth it coming into play tapped in a deck already full of pro?
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While I will agree Allies reward overextending, with the more aggro varients, you don't necessarily have to overextend to win. Against other aggro decks, you an just go nuts, but against control, only 2-3 dudes are necessary. You just beat, wait for a sweep, and build up while 3hose couple of creatures hit for 3-6 damage per turn.
Allies can recover from a wipe, but only if you play smart and don't dump your entire hand. If you see control colors, try to keep a few resources in hand.
@ Whoever said allies can't play hastey things. Well, in the Naya list, 8 crits HAVE haste (4 of which bring another dude) and Bushwhacker gives all crits haste.
As they stand in the current meta, Allies aren't so good. There's nothing really wrong with them, but I feel like there's not a compelling reason to play Allies over any other aggro deck. They do the same thing, but Allies tend to be sub-par compared to the other beaters available in the format. I'd play mono-G stompy featuring Leatherback Baloth as my all-star beater sooner than I'd play Allies in the current format.
That said- Allies are full of potential... I feel like what they need is a toolbox approach. If you could search out allies and put the one you needed into play, then they would be rockin', Unfortunately, that possibility is just not here.
Once alara rotates out those answers will disapear. PtE, Terminate, Pulse, and lots of the most efficient removal in the format that is holding allies back will disapeer.
Speculating about future future metas is pretty pointless; by the time Alara rotates we will have 3 large sets (Rise, M11, Scars) to add to the cardpool. So sure, you might be right that allies sans BBElf and Naya Charm will be just super awesome next fall. I have no idea. My point is right now the deck is probably only seeing a lot of play on MTGO because it is cheap. It isnt because it is good.
The meta on MTGO evolves in different directions than the meta in paper MTG because of a number of factors, and in reality many of the decks that were doing well in daily events, that people expected to dominate the next big tournaments, turn around and lose horribly.
So you're saying that all those people who were doing well in daily events with Jund were wrong? They expected it to dominate the next big tournament, weren't they? Hmmmm....
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Ally decks can be pretty explosive, even if the opposing player is holding an earthquake. They grow fast and earthquake for 3 or 4 won't be enough to kill them all. The only card that I see killing this deck would be DOJ, But still, with BBE, ROE and Violent Outburst they have ways of recovering
if you cant gain some sort of card advantage or control of the board by turn 4...in most cases ive seen...ally decks explode around t4 or t5 and just wipe you clean.
Last night my chaplain control ground out a gruelling 3 games against an ally deck, game 1 was complete domination, game 2 he had a god-draw and I couldn't find a wrath. Game 3 I stabilized at 2 (my mind controls found ☺☺☺☺ty targets usually). He played a diabolist that took me to 1, then I martial coup'd for 7 with cancel backup.
From there he was in topdeck mode while I had an active jace. I slowly climbed to 3 life while taking him down from the ridiculous life he had from 2 clerics.
He eventually rage quit.
Allies are strange in that they are powerful (like slivers) but lack the really strong slivers, gemhide, crystaline, homing, sinew, etc. etc.
You could build some sort of ally-control abomination which used allys as over powered beaters with spot-removal + light permission.
But the problem with adding in more non-allies is that the quality of your allies becomes less (a hada freeblade without backup is just a squire) which begs the question of why you're not running jar jar or iona
Allies are strange in that they are powerful (like slivers) but lack the really strong slivers, gemhide, crystaline, homing, sinew, etc. etc.
Allies might lack shroud and cycle but they dont lack or +1+1 or other power cards, besides the cyrstal sliver is unfair comparision. What current standard deck has a card giving an entire tribe shroud :| Besides allies draw, not cylce, you give +1+1 to all which are peremant tokkens, not +1+1 buff.
There is a duress ally, a draw ally and all allies get +1+1 when an ally enters meaning that any "+1+1 when an ally enters" will get +2+2.
These allies are certainlly fat and im experimenting on a spellless Grixis coloured Ally deck which gives me Bala Ged Thief, Sea Gate Loremaster and Kazuul Warlord, Murasa Pyromancer, Hagra Diabolist , without a single instant/sroc I still ping, mill, draw, drainhealth, duress, discard and buff. Considering that only 1 ally in this deck is double colour (x2 red) my mana base of 4 Zigs, 2 Tar Pits, 4 Necropolis ensures i never run into mana problems.
All of this sreams card advantge (not to mention Turntimber Ranger)...There are strong allies, but they need other allies to shine, which brings us back to the conundrum of overextend to beat, run out of steam then die, or play with options/cards in hand, fail to win (or run into blightning) and loose anyway.
It depends on the situation and your deck:
Against aggro I feel youwant to raceif you aggro
Against control i depends on your hand, but of course you want to hold back somethings
Against Jund? Go crazy, if you dont have a counter spell blightning is going to make holding back pointless, so swing away. I have turn 4d Jund before with my G/W ally...that was lucky though, he was fixing himself, hit Hada, Bladmaster, Evangel, Garrak, untap lands, drop ally, swing overrun...Red allies can turn 4 if they hit Battlesingers and or Clones...
BUT again it depends, if your control it changes all over again, there can be no right answers just the situation making good plays, the same rules apply but the ally overextending question just adds another dynamic
Given up magic because a)its a waste of money b)it sucks the joy out of life c)im doing more interesting things than tapping pieces of plastic that have no intrinsic value.
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Mono-W, GW, and WUallies are probably some of the most fun I've had playing MTG in a while. Honestly I've seen some interesting decks appear since Worldwake.
Straight up delicious W allies are probably the strongest though, and any ally deck that doesn't run white is just, quite simply, not playing the best ally cards in print. Hada Freeblade and Kazandu Blademaster are just immaculate cards.
The best Ally in print, BY FAR, is Turntimber Ranger. Five power for five mana then and there, and immediately becomes an overwhelming influence on the board the moment you cast any other Ally. It lets you win without overextending, which is the only way you ever win against decent competition.
Assorted weenies are well and good, but neither of them (Freeblade or Blademaster) are in the same realm as Turntimber. At best, they swing in for non-evasive damage every turn. At best, the Ranger is a format-busting combo piece (whenever the proper partner for it arrives in a format slow enough to abuse it, unlike the current Conspiracy/Artificial Evolution interactions).
I wouldn't hesitate to say that Turntimber Ranger has the most potential of any card in Zendikar. Seriously. The fact that it'll probably find more success in a deck where it's the only Ally even played is a bit hilarious.
Outside of Turntimber Ranger and Bala Ged Thief, though? Nothing worth building into. Nothing at all. Literally every single Ally outside of the two "overcosted" ones feeds into the "overextend or lose" nature of the deck, or simply suck to the extent that they aren't even plausible for standard play (Loremaster, Pyromancer, Diabolist mostly).
Have played against the Naya Allies, sadly if you ripped a sweeper or 2 they run out of gas quickly. Even with Ranger/BBE they do not have the power of Boros nor Jund that can come back easily to turn the tables or have a deadly alpha strike.
It isn't that bad as a surprise deck but now that everyone'd played against it, i doubt it gonna go far in competitive play level anyway. I wouldn't completely diss the deck though, i believe allies decks(naya allies that is) have reached the level where it depends on how both pilots play out that match, no longer a complete loss against the major archetypes.
He is so man, he is mario, and I will tell my opponents such. As and when I bounce their permanent I will exclaim "MARIO" as though he were stomped on by our mighty Jace. Every time someone kill him I will give them 99 USD (not AUS!!!) because their lightning bolt should cost 100 DOLLARS...
Jace even made it into the Teenage Super Hero Mutant Ninja Hero Turtles.
i dont know what players you guys play against but ally generally doesnt lose to decks with wrath of god. you would THINK they do. but with actually testing they do not.
its hard to overextend in this format. you can have like 4 creatures out and bring them to dangerous life totals and IF they have the day of judgement you have cards like BBE and ranger of eos that bring you right back into the game. and most control list play only 3 days main :/.so i dont get this overextending thing. this isnt skill magic this is 8 year old magic you can overextend if you want and still win.
also G/W/b ally wrecks control because of thief. and both naya and GWb ally have dauntless escort in the board while gwb also has duress.
i dont know what players you guys play against but ally generally doesnt lose to decks with wrath of god. you would THINK they do. but with actually testing they do not.
its hard to overextend in this format. you can have like 4 creatures out and bring them to dangerous life totals and IF they have the day of judgement you have cards like BBE and ranger of eos that bring you right back into the game. and most control list play only 3 days main :/.so i dont get this overextending thing. this isnt skill magic this is 8 year old magic you can overextend if you want and still win.
also G/W/b ally wrecks control because of thief. and both naya and GWb ally have dauntless escort in the board while gwb also has duress.
i think that the success of allies is more meta dependent. there are lots of solutions that allies have to deal with removal and mass removal. but if the ally deck isn't prepared for a meta that can specifically deal with aggro decks (lots and lots of removal and permission etc.) then it would lose. on the other hand, if the ally deck has the element of surprise backing it, then it would most likely have the upper hand.
heck, boss naya has a hard time beating allies pre-board. and post-board, it's still pretty hard. some boss players in my area are trying out DOJ, EQ and Chain Reaction in the board specifically to deal with allies. and the only ally deck that consistently tops in my area is the WW one, since it runs dauntless escort in the main. and the guy who plays the deck almost always has the perfect ally curve every time he plays.
I watched naya ally matchups vs bant, boss, and jund all day yesterday and whereas before I was very skeptical as to it's ability to be competitive, I am no longer so dubious now. I watched naya allies win through three earthquakes and a day of judgement with ease. Also watched it never drop a game against jund or mythic. It lost once to boss naya but I think that was more due to back to back to back bbe. It still won that match though.
Look at the decklist from GP brussels, proxy it up, and play it a little. There are some changes I feel need to be made to the deck, but it's far better than what most people on here are giving it credit for.
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Then have him eat Nicol Bolas and the Magic universe can be awesome again. He takes over the Infinite Consortium and turns it into a trans-multiverse Izzet League. His agents scour the multiverse in Venser's planeships looking for magic to learn, technology to improve upon, and less intelligent people to condescend to.
For some reason, people don't think going 8-1 in a PE is adequate around here. I don't understand it. DE and PE results are perfectly valid in my book.
The best Ally in print, BY FAR, is Turntimber Ranger. Five power for five mana then and there, and immediately becomes an overwhelming influence on the board the moment you cast any other Ally. It lets you win without overextending, which is the only way you ever win against decent competition.
Assorted weenies are well and good, but neither of them (Freeblade or Blademaster) are in the same realm as Turntimber. At best, they swing in for non-evasive damage every turn. At best, the Ranger is a format-busting combo piece (whenever the proper partner for it arrives in a format slow enough to abuse it, unlike the current Conspiracy/Artificial Evolution interactions).
I wouldn't hesitate to say that Turntimber Ranger has the most potential of any card in Zendikar. Seriously. The fact that it'll probably find more success in a deck where it's the only Ally even played is a bit hilarious.
Outside of Turntimber Ranger and Bala Ged Thief, though? Nothing worth building into. Nothing at all. Literally every single Ally outside of the two "overcosted" ones feeds into the "overextend or lose" nature of the deck, or simply suck to the extent that they aren't even plausible for standard play (Loremaster, Pyromancer, Diabolist mostly).
Good luck with that deck, MBP. You'll need it.
Spoken like someone who truly has no idea what they are talking about.
Kabira is alot better than Ranger in the vast majority of situations. You just don't seem to understand allys as much as you claim.
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Spoken like someone who truly has no idea what they are talking about.
Kabira is alot better than Ranger in the vast majority of situations. You just don't seem to understand allys as much as you claim.
I truly agree with you. Turntimber Ranger is a fun card but people usually remove him before he gets going with more wolves.
Kabira is much stronger and I grow sad when I do not draw one.
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The meta on MTGO evolves in different directions than the meta in paper MTG because of a number of factors, and in reality many of the decks that were doing well in daily events, that people expected to dominate the next big tournaments, turn around and lose horribly.
Following MTGO is a good habit to be in so you don't miss something, but the people who take it as being on the same skill level, or "ahead" of paper MTG are simply incorrect. It's different, not better or worse, it's just another tool to use and what you get out of it is going to depend on your own skill level, and your ability to recognize what's going on.
Allys is a good deck where people are surprised, but if you think you're the only person who follows Daily events, you'll be surprised when you show up at a physical tournament and get crushed, absolutely crushed.
For Jund, but white decks are in stronger and stronger positions to fight Aggro. Since Allys will get exactly 0 new creatures from here on out, it's also pretty "set and lock" as being at whatever power level its at. Wizards didn't print another slivers
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Yeah, the bastards at wizards thought it would be cool not to print allys in Rise.
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To add to that problem Allies are in all 5 colors, leading to the lack of allies in one or two colors making the other creatures in the deck a little worse.
EDH:
UAzamiU
WBTeysa(In construction) WB
Casual:
GSapsG
RGAllinfectRG
BReclaimation ControlB
It seems most of the poeple that think mono white suck haven't really learned to play it. I know this may sound arrogant, but I have probably played mono white more than anyone on this board. Finding the right biuld and right plays are deceptively difficult with mono white allys.
There are a few obviose choices, like luminarch in the side against control. but there are a lot of difficult ones. Like wether or not to run a 2/2 split between dread statuaries and sky ruins, or make it a 3/1 split. Or how about running Sejiri Steppes? Is the added pro worth it coming into play tapped in a deck already full of pro?
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Allies can recover from a wipe, but only if you play smart and don't dump your entire hand. If you see control colors, try to keep a few resources in hand.
@ Whoever said allies can't play hastey things. Well, in the Naya list, 8 crits HAVE haste (4 of which bring another dude) and Bushwhacker gives all crits haste.
That said- Allies are full of potential... I feel like what they need is a toolbox approach. If you could search out allies and put the one you needed into play, then they would be rockin', Unfortunately, that possibility is just not here.
Speculating about future future metas is pretty pointless; by the time Alara rotates we will have 3 large sets (Rise, M11, Scars) to add to the cardpool. So sure, you might be right that allies sans BBElf and Naya Charm will be just super awesome next fall. I have no idea. My point is right now the deck is probably only seeing a lot of play on MTGO because it is cheap. It isnt because it is good.
So you're saying that all those people who were doing well in daily events with Jund were wrong? They expected it to dominate the next big tournament, weren't they? Hmmmm....
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From there he was in topdeck mode while I had an active jace. I slowly climbed to 3 life while taking him down from the ridiculous life he had from 2 clerics.
He eventually rage quit.
Allies are strange in that they are powerful (like slivers) but lack the really strong slivers, gemhide, crystaline, homing, sinew, etc. etc.
You could build some sort of ally-control abomination which used allys as over powered beaters with spot-removal + light permission.
But the problem with adding in more non-allies is that the quality of your allies becomes less (a hada freeblade without backup is just a squire) which begs the question of why you're not running jar jar or iona
Now, I'm not alone.
Allies might lack shroud and cycle but they dont lack or +1+1 or other power cards, besides the cyrstal sliver is unfair comparision. What current standard deck has a card giving an entire tribe shroud :| Besides allies draw, not cylce, you give +1+1 to all which are peremant tokkens, not +1+1 buff.
There is a duress ally, a draw ally and all allies get +1+1 when an ally enters meaning that any "+1+1 when an ally enters" will get +2+2.
These allies are certainlly fat and im experimenting on a spellless Grixis coloured Ally deck which gives me Bala Ged Thief, Sea Gate Loremaster and Kazuul Warlord, Murasa Pyromancer, Hagra Diabolist , without a single instant/sroc I still ping, mill, draw, drainhealth, duress, discard and buff. Considering that only 1 ally in this deck is double colour (x2 red) my mana base of 4 Zigs, 2 Tar Pits, 4 Necropolis ensures i never run into mana problems.
All of this sreams card advantge (not to mention Turntimber Ranger)...There are strong allies, but they need other allies to shine, which brings us back to the conundrum of overextend to beat, run out of steam then die, or play with options/cards in hand, fail to win (or run into blightning) and loose anyway.
It depends on the situation and your deck:
Against aggro I feel youwant to raceif you aggro
Against control i depends on your hand, but of course you want to hold back somethings
Against Jund? Go crazy, if you dont have a counter spell blightning is going to make holding back pointless, so swing away. I have turn 4d Jund before with my G/W ally...that was lucky though, he was fixing himself, hit Hada, Bladmaster, Evangel, Garrak, untap lands, drop ally, swing overrun...Red allies can turn 4 if they hit Battlesingers and or Clones...
BUT again it depends, if your control it changes all over again, there can be no right answers just the situation making good plays, the same rules apply but the ally overextending question just adds another dynamic
I encourage you to do the same. Instead of FNM try Friday Night Something Spontaneous. Instead of thousands of hours and dollars on plastic imagine it with a significant other or friends sharing something meaningful. I randomly typed a new password, so bon voyage itches i encourage you to follow suit! Cheers
Straight up delicious W allies are probably the strongest though, and any ally deck that doesn't run white is just, quite simply, not playing the best ally cards in print. Hada Freeblade and Kazandu Blademaster are just immaculate cards.
Assorted weenies are well and good, but neither of them (Freeblade or Blademaster) are in the same realm as Turntimber. At best, they swing in for non-evasive damage every turn. At best, the Ranger is a format-busting combo piece (whenever the proper partner for it arrives in a format slow enough to abuse it, unlike the current Conspiracy/Artificial Evolution interactions).
I wouldn't hesitate to say that Turntimber Ranger has the most potential of any card in Zendikar. Seriously. The fact that it'll probably find more success in a deck where it's the only Ally even played is a bit hilarious.
Outside of Turntimber Ranger and Bala Ged Thief, though? Nothing worth building into. Nothing at all. Literally every single Ally outside of the two "overcosted" ones feeds into the "overextend or lose" nature of the deck, or simply suck to the extent that they aren't even plausible for standard play (Loremaster, Pyromancer, Diabolist mostly).
Good luck with that deck, MBP. You'll need it.
It isn't that bad as a surprise deck but now that everyone'd played against it, i doubt it gonna go far in competitive play level anyway. I wouldn't completely diss the deck though, i believe allies decks(naya allies that is) have reached the level where it depends on how both pilots play out that match, no longer a complete loss against the major archetypes.
its hard to overextend in this format. you can have like 4 creatures out and bring them to dangerous life totals and IF they have the day of judgement you have cards like BBE and ranger of eos that bring you right back into the game. and most control list play only 3 days main :/.so i dont get this overextending thing. this isnt skill magic this is 8 year old magic you can overextend if you want and still win.
also G/W/b ally wrecks control because of thief. and both naya and GWb ally have dauntless escort in the board while gwb also has duress.
i think that the success of allies is more meta dependent. there are lots of solutions that allies have to deal with removal and mass removal. but if the ally deck isn't prepared for a meta that can specifically deal with aggro decks (lots and lots of removal and permission etc.) then it would lose. on the other hand, if the ally deck has the element of surprise backing it, then it would most likely have the upper hand.
heck, boss naya has a hard time beating allies pre-board. and post-board, it's still pretty hard. some boss players in my area are trying out DOJ, EQ and Chain Reaction in the board specifically to deal with allies. and the only ally deck that consistently tops in my area is the WW one, since it runs dauntless escort in the main. and the guy who plays the deck almost always has the perfect ally curve every time he plays.
RWG Boss Naya
Look at the decklist from GP brussels, proxy it up, and play it a little. There are some changes I feel need to be made to the deck, but it's far better than what most people on here are giving it credit for.
Currently Playing in Modern: U/W Control
The ability to Alpha strike EVERY TURN and win damage races is huge...
LOL
Right. Because this post makes sense. >_<
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For some reason, people don't think going 8-1 in a PE is adequate around here. I don't understand it. DE and PE results are perfectly valid in my book.
Kabira is alot better than Ranger in the vast majority of situations. You just don't seem to understand allys as much as you claim.
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I truly agree with you. Turntimber Ranger is a fun card but people usually remove him before he gets going with more wolves.
Kabira is much stronger and I grow sad when I do not draw one.
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Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn