Bant decks like these seem to be getting popular in MTGO and they just completely rape me, even from the beginning its never a contest. They are explosive and can literally bring you to single digits if not kill you in one attack with one creature. Postboard I bring in deathmarks and smothers and it does help a little but they sh*t out better creatures at a faster rate with their dorks, just can't keep up. Some of these decks even run mind control in the SB which is very annoying because they just take my key vamps and laugh as I spend mana to take out my own creatures. Is there any hope at all against this matchup?
Side in Infest or Marsh Casualties to destroy all Bird tokens and Heirarchs.
Malakir Bloodwitch is your friend in this instance. Make sure you have 4 post-board.
Other than that, note the lack of flying in their deck. They only have Emeria Angel and Baneslayer. If this deck gets too out of hand, I might even try Doom Blade in the SB for instant speed kill. Then, if you can get out a Nocturnus, fly overhead. That is how you are going to win. Take their tiny beats early and drop a Nocturnus turn 4 and swing mad.
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Bant decks like these seem to be getting popular in MTGO and they just completely rape me, even from the beginning its never a contest. They are explosive and can literally bring you to single digits if not kill you in one attack with one creature. Postboard I bring in deathmarks and smothers and it does help a little but they sh*t out better creatures at a faster rate with their dorks, just can't keep up. Some of these decks even run mind control in the SB which is very annoying because they just take my key vamps and laugh as I spend mana to take out my own creatures. Is there any hope at all against this matchup?
Quick thoughts:
-Like Blees said, Marsh Casualties and/or Infest to hand those stupid Bird tokens
-Deathmark works against every creature listed since they all are at least white, green, or both
-Smother/UtF should get rid of the mana dorks ASAP
-Tendrils should be able to handle the bigger boys
That being said...
The Spell set seems to actually be the biggest roadblock for vamps, and having your vamp taken with Mind Control is one of the most frustrating things that happens. Maybe it is worth Mind Sludge and/or Duress to try to disrupt their flow in addition to removal?
Regardless, yes, this is a tough matchup and I am glad that there isn't a ton of it in my meta.
-Like Blees said, Marsh Casualties and/or Infest to hand those stupid Bird tokens
-Deathmark works against every creature listed since they all are at least white, green, or both
-Smother/UtF should get rid of the mana dorks ASAP
-Tendrils should be able to handle the bigger boys
That being said...
The Spell set seems to actually be the biggest roadblock for vamps, and having your vamp taken with Mind Control is one of the most frustrating things that happens. Maybe it is worth Mind Sludge and/or Duress to try to disrupt their flow in addition to removal?
Regardless, yes, this is a tough matchup and I am glad that there isn't a ton of it in my meta.
Bant isn't as horrible as we think. You can't let the deck get to you. It's incredibly annoying, yes. But is it unbeatable? No. Nothing is unbeatable anymore (not since my Fae went out (RIP)). It's hard, yes. Kill their mana base, kill the man-lands with Tectonic Edge and Smother. Mind Sludge them. Then Grim Discovery your critters and your Tectonic Edge or Fetch Lands back. Just play right and hope you get the draw. Remember your Deathmark, Duress, and Bloodwitch.
Bant is big but not a giant.
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Decks I Run Standard RWBDark Vengeant ControlBWR Legacy UBFaeries in My SoupBU EDH UBOona's Dance PartyBU
1. Run Disfigure MD if you're meta is full of Naya/Bant. The game is basically decided in the first two turns and it's based on this one question: can you reliably kill their mana dork? If they're dropping T2 Reliquarys or War Monks then the game can quickly get out of control so you need to reliably kill their mana dork whether you're on the play or on the draw (Smother/Urge won't always work).
2. Side in Marsh Casualties if they're running two or more of the following: Birds, Hierarch, Emeria, Lotus Cobra.
3. Side in for a full playset of Bloodwitches.
They basically run barely any removal at all. If you can kill their mana dork then you slow down their ability to push out threats and then you land a Bloodwitch and that's game. Try to save Tendrils for the inevitable BSA but don't underestimate Reliquary (they also act as ramp), but if you're kill their dorks then they should be dropping Reliquary on T3 which would then be a perfect target for Gatekeeper.
I hit this deck in top 8 on game day. Against this matchup I play more like control than like aggro. I main deck disfigure instead of UTF, which is vitally important in this matchup. If you don't MD them, side in as many as you can. Stop their mana accelerators early, you cant let a single hierarch or, god forbid, cobra survive.
Its a very easy match if you draw the removal you need (which we have tons of). Just don't give them the oppurtunity to spiral out of control, and they won't.
I won 2-1 on that match, btw.
EDIT:: Also, on tendrils, saving it for BSA is normally a good move, but here Reliquary can ☺☺☺☺ your day up. The new white land enters the battlefield and gives pro-color to target creature. Had this happen too.. I tendrils their dude, they tap a Knight of the Reliquary, pull out Sejiri Steppe, give Knight pro-black, Tendrils is countered on resolution as it can't target him. No life gain, no dead reliquary. Sad day. Watch out for that one.
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Well I haven't reaelly had the chance to play against Bant yet. Nobody at my place runs it. I am guessing the best thing to do is pack removal and play Vamps as a control deck against them. That is what I love about Vamps. You can be aggro or control depending on situations and how you play. Against a deck like this I would Urge/Disfigure the lil guys. Tendrils the rest and hope you can wipe their hand fairly quick so you can just beat them down before they build up a board presence.
I feel I have a pretty good matchup to this. Gatekeeper actually comes out and a couple 1 ofs..... in comes 4 Smother, 3 Doom Blade, and another Bloodwitch from the board.
The key is that you cannot keep your starting 7 unless you have a way to deal with T3 Baneslayer (or kill a bunch of mana dorks before they can cast)!
If that is a Tendrils on your turn 5.... probably not good enough.
If it is Bloodwitch, seems solid for T5 since you pretty much are pro most of the deck!
Doom Blade makes it an easy choice!
Urge to Feed.... this takes some tricks but usually gets the job done too if you are lucky enough to have an active Nocturous or Nighthawk out!
Casualties or Infest.... seem pretty good at whiping out the mana dorks, but not really anything else. Turn 2/3 this is awesome but anything after seems close to dead?
I've actually never played against a Bant deck (there are no Bant players in my area), but it doesn't seem to me like it would be horrendously difficult. Based on the deck lists I've read, Bant barely seems to run any removal at all. Conversely, we run crazy amounts of spot-removal. I'd imagine we'd just kill their dorks and kill them with ours.
I fail to see the use for casualties/infest, if you're using it to kill dorks, then that means you're letting them stack up, which means they would be using them the whole time, and playing bigger spells. By the time there's a bunch, and you wipe them out, they've probably already done their job. In my meta there's a lot of bant with shroud, which is annoying to try to kill with removal, but overall isn't that hard to beat because we just have better creatures.
These decks are why I have Anowon in my SB, and there's enough of them in my meta to justify it.
I have a decent amount of naya and bant in my Meta so I have 3 Marsh casualties 3 deathmark and 2 Nemesis trap in the side. Bring those in and its gg. The nem traps are God against bsa and kotr
i've never had a problem against bant for the few times ive played it. Deathmark is very fun against them and alot of them are within urge to feed, bolt, smother range also so the removal is entirely there. The problem lies when they start sticking cards with exalted. Their single baneslayer attack could become a 8/8 lifelink doublestrike and it can attack another time. When this happens you're more than liekly S.O.L. A sadistic sacrament i've found works fairly well against bant decks because you can pick from what gives you the most problems. Making it that they can only draw 1 baneslayer or rafique hurts them
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-Like Blees said, Marsh Casualties and/or Infest to hand those stupid Bird tokens
-Deathmark works against every creature listed since they all are at least white, green, or both
-Smother/UtF should get rid of the mana dorks ASAP
-Tendrils should be able to handle the bigger boys
That being said...
The Spell set seems to actually be the biggest roadblock for vamps, and having your vamp taken with Mind Control is one of the most frustrating things that happens. Maybe it is worth Mind Sludge and/or Duress to try to disrupt their flow in addition to removal?
Regardless, yes, this is a tough matchup and I am glad that there isn't a ton of it in my meta.
Mind Sludge is an excellent, excellent card - but it's so bad vs. Bant (specifically Mythic Bant). If you don't deal with their dorks, they'll dump their hand by t4 at latest and have ridiculous board position. I would actually side MS out for additional removal and the extra Bloodwitch.
It's not unbeatable, but I don't think Vamps can keep up with a good Bant player.
I agree. Most of the times, Sludge becomes irrelevant in the matchup as they can spew out their hand faster. Pre-SB is pretty disadvantage, Post-SB it should be better as you now access to Deathmark, Doom Blade etc. etc. Just be careful when they get GSS down.
As stated many times, just lots of cheap removal. The most powerful cards they have (power/toughness wise) will be like the Baneslayer and KotR (its only ever going out when they have 2 lands min. in grave) and those are killed easily by things such as doom blade. side out a couple creatures if you have to to have enough removal. cause once the KotR and exalted crap is gone, its a non-effective deck.
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Malakir Bloodwitch is your friend in this instance. Make sure you have 4 post-board.
Other than that, note the lack of flying in their deck. They only have Emeria Angel and Baneslayer. If this deck gets too out of hand, I might even try Doom Blade in the SB for instant speed kill. Then, if you can get out a Nocturnus, fly overhead. That is how you are going to win. Take their tiny beats early and drop a Nocturnus turn 4 and swing mad.
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Quick thoughts:
-Like Blees said, Marsh Casualties and/or Infest to hand those stupid Bird tokens
-Deathmark works against every creature listed since they all are at least white, green, or both
-Smother/UtF should get rid of the mana dorks ASAP
-Tendrils should be able to handle the bigger boys
That being said...
The Spell set seems to actually be the biggest roadblock for vamps, and having your vamp taken with Mind Control is one of the most frustrating things that happens. Maybe it is worth Mind Sludge and/or Duress to try to disrupt their flow in addition to removal?
Regardless, yes, this is a tough matchup and I am glad that there isn't a ton of it in my meta.
TBD...
Bant isn't as horrible as we think. You can't let the deck get to you. It's incredibly annoying, yes. But is it unbeatable? No. Nothing is unbeatable anymore (not since my Fae went out (RIP)). It's hard, yes. Kill their mana base, kill the man-lands with Tectonic Edge and Smother. Mind Sludge them. Then Grim Discovery your critters and your Tectonic Edge or Fetch Lands back. Just play right and hope you get the draw. Remember your Deathmark, Duress, and Bloodwitch.
Bant is big but not a giant.
Standard
RWBDark Vengeant ControlBWR
Legacy
UBFaeries in My SoupBU
EDH
UBOona's Dance PartyBU
2. Side in Marsh Casualties if they're running two or more of the following: Birds, Hierarch, Emeria, Lotus Cobra.
3. Side in for a full playset of Bloodwitches.
They basically run barely any removal at all. If you can kill their mana dork then you slow down their ability to push out threats and then you land a Bloodwitch and that's game. Try to save Tendrils for the inevitable BSA but don't underestimate Reliquary (they also act as ramp), but if you're kill their dorks then they should be dropping Reliquary on T3 which would then be a perfect target for Gatekeeper.
Its a very easy match if you draw the removal you need (which we have tons of). Just don't give them the oppurtunity to spiral out of control, and they won't.
I won 2-1 on that match, btw.
EDIT:: Also, on tendrils, saving it for BSA is normally a good move, but here Reliquary can ☺☺☺☺ your day up. The new white land enters the battlefield and gives pro-color to target creature. Had this happen too.. I tendrils their dude, they tap a Knight of the Reliquary, pull out Sejiri Steppe, give Knight pro-black, Tendrils is countered on resolution as it can't target him. No life gain, no dead reliquary. Sad day. Watch out for that one.
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The key is that you cannot keep your starting 7 unless you have a way to deal with T3 Baneslayer (or kill a bunch of mana dorks before they can cast)!
If that is a Tendrils on your turn 5.... probably not good enough.
If it is Bloodwitch, seems solid for T5 since you pretty much are pro most of the deck!
Doom Blade makes it an easy choice!
Urge to Feed.... this takes some tricks but usually gets the job done too if you are lucky enough to have an active Nocturous or Nighthawk out!
Casualties or Infest.... seem pretty good at whiping out the mana dorks, but not really anything else. Turn 2/3 this is awesome but anything after seems close to dead?
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Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
These decks are why I have Anowon in my SB, and there's enough of them in my meta to justify it.
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Mind Sludge is an excellent, excellent card - but it's so bad vs. Bant (specifically Mythic Bant). If you don't deal with their dorks, they'll dump their hand by t4 at latest and have ridiculous board position. I would actually side MS out for additional removal and the extra Bloodwitch.
It's not unbeatable, but I don't think Vamps can keep up with a good Bant player.