In my opinion, Knight of the Reliquary is the best card in standard. It's a slightly nerfed Tarmogoyf that's also a toolbox. I've played games wheres he's a 5/5 on turn 3 and usually, he's at least a 4/4. He only get's bigger too. Like my friend always says... It's not the first Knight, or the second Knight that's going to kill you. It's the 10/10 life link trampling third knight that'll get you.
Top 8 Cards:
1. Knight of the Reliquary
2. Bloodbraid Elf
3. Elspeth, Knight Errant
4. Jace the Mind Sculptor
5. Tectonic Edge
6. Path to Exile
7. Baneslayer Angel
8. Lightning Bolt
Have to disagree on KotR being better than BBE. The fact that you can search for a land and having your creature become bigger is nothing compared to getting a free spell. Especially when you can make it so that free spell deals damage, helps board precesnce, or even answers a threat.
On topic: Chapin had stated on the MTG cruise that there will be three archetypes in place of the traditional ones. These archtypes are Jace, The Mindsculptor Decks, Bloodbraid Elf decks, and Tectonic Edge decks. I could see the Jace and BBE deck easily but Tectonic Edge is something I'm goign to need a little more convincing on. Sure its good, I'm not disputing that and yes it is pretty relevant in todays standard, but I wouldn't say an archetype in of itself would arise with this card at the helm. It will however see play in decks that can easily fit 1-4 copies in them.
Have to disagree on KotR being better than BBE. The fact that you can search for a land and having your creature become bigger is nothing compared to getting a free spell. Especially when you can make it so that free spell deals damage, helps board precesnce, or even answers a threat.
On topic: Chapin had stated on the MTG cruise that there will be three archetypes in place of the traditional ones. These archtypes are Jace, The Mindsculptor Decks, Bloodbraid Elf decks, and Tectonic Edge decks. I could see the Jace and BBE deck easily but Tectonic Edge is something I'm goign to need a little more convincing on. Sure its good, I'm not disputing that and yes it is pretty relevant in todays standard, but I wouldn't say an archetype in of itself would arise with this card at the helm. It will however see play in decks that can easily fit 1-4 copies in them.
I am just saying I am playing a deck with 4 Tectonic Edge and it is easily the best card in the deck and I'm playing stuff like Ajani Vengeant, Bolt, Steppe Lynx, Geopede, O-Ring, IE other great cards but whenever I get Tectonic Edge it often seems to lead to wins (except vs monocolor of course)
On topic: Chapin had stated on the MTG cruise that there will be three archetypes in place of the traditional ones. These archtypes are Jace, The Mindsculptor Decks, Bloodbraid Elf decks, and Tectonic Edge decks. I could see the Jace and BBE deck easily but Tectonic Edge is something I'm goign to need a little more convincing on. Sure its good, I'm not disputing that and yes it is pretty relevant in todays standard, but I wouldn't say an archetype in of itself would arise with this card at the helm.
Well, he didn't say there would be three different archetypes (the "tectonic edge deck") all he said would be there would be those three types of archetypes, or rather, decks with those cards in them. (If that makes sense. Deck types in general). Not a "Jace archetype, BBE archetype, TE archetype" but rather every deck will either be running Jace (control), Bloodbraid Elf (jund, naya), and everything else which will simply run Tectonic Edge since the former two types of decks are, in Chapin's opinion, so strong as to necessitate Tectonic edge in everything else. It's not that TE is so strong it warrants an archetype, but because it's necessary if you aren't in the former two archetypes.
It will however see play in decks that can easily fit 1-4 copies in them.
So answer me this, what Top 8 deck at a major post-WWK tournament has run 4x Edge MD? Link me the deck list.
If it's the best card in standard, or one of the best cards, where is it? One or two in a decklist or two doesn't mean anything, if it's the best, where is it? It's near absence proves exactly my point: it's a decent card but only suited for a limited number of decks or maybe as a one or two-of as a cute trick.
Now if you could use it with your opponent controlling three lands or less then it would be worth it. Keeping a Jund player off BBE mana would be insanely useful. But as it stands it plays out like this: Jund player drops his land on T4. You tap to destroy his non-basic. (So on your T4 or T3 you left Edge and another land untapped). He taps his land in response and continues to play BBE into something nasty. You've now nearly wasted the previous turn, you're back to 3 land too, and the Jund player barely lost any tempo. Sure you might keep him off Broodmate for another turn, but you're just as behind, and there's a the small chance that you might screw with his manabase (but it's unlikely considering how many decks run Rampant Growth or high land counts just to avoid that). If you're running red I'd rather just run Ruinblaster since he comes with a body and doesn't set you back land. And since Ruinblaster isn't even an auto-include, how is Tech Edge going to "create it's own deck archetype"? If you believe that I have some Meddling Mages I'd like to sell you, they're going to crack the format wide open!
Jund has very few lands that come in to play untapped. Oftentimes they drop turn 4 land tapped, it dies then turn 5 they drop another comes in to play tapped land, that's how it works in testing, then if you have 2 tectonics or use grim discovery to get that one back to kill the CiTP tapped land that just came in, it is pretty hard to recover from
So answer me this, what Top 8 deck at a major post-WWK tournament has run 4x Edge MD? Link me the deck list.
If it's the best card in standard, or one of the best cards, where is it? One or two in a decklist or two doesn't mean anything, if it's the best, where is it? It's near absence proves exactly my point: it's a decent card but only suited for a limited number of decks or maybe as a one or two-of as a cute trick.
Now if you could use it with your opponent controlling three lands or less then it would be worth it. Keeping a Jund player off BBE mana would be insanely useful. But as it stands it plays out like this: Jund player drops his land on T4. You tap to destroy his non-basic. (So on your T4 or T3 you left Edge and another land untapped). He taps his land in response and continues to play BBE into something nasty. You've now nearly wasted the previous turn, you're back to 3 land too, and the Jund player barely lost any tempo. Sure you might keep him off Broodmate for another turn, but you're just as behind, and there's a the small chance that you might screw with his manabase (but it's unlikely considering how many decks run Rampant Growth or high land counts just to avoid that). If you're running red I'd rather just run Ruinblaster since he comes with a body and doesn't set you back land. And since Ruinblaster isn't even an auto-include, how is Tech Edge going to "create it's own deck archetype"? If you believe that I have some Meddling Mages I'd like to sell you, they're going to crack the format wide open!
Patrick Chapin went 3-3 in ZZW draft, but his Standard matches with UW control pushed him to 14th place. Nassif made top 32 after going 3-0 day in draft and then 0-3 day 2, but his matches with UW pushed him back up.
BTW, a few of those Jund decks didn't have very good Standard records, but the pilots' skill in ZZW draft was enough to put them in top 8. And combined with LSV's dream crushing parade.
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
After playing 4 of these today, I have to say it was the card that won me the most games. Paired with Grim Discovery and Ajani Vengeant it is pretty dominant, and it is strong just on it's own as well.
Vs Jund, vs Naya, vs UW, vs Grixis, vs any multicolor deck it is amazing.
I'm curious as to what deck you were playing. A competitive RWB deck? I'll readily admit that Tectonic Edge is a good card, maybe even a great card, but it is not the best card in Standard. The card is dead against a number of competitive decks and archetpes (ie Vampires, White Weenie) and there are plenty of mono-colored tier 1.5 decks that it would have little impact on (ie Eldrazi Green in which it only hits Oran Rief the Vastwood).
Well, he didn't say there would be three different archetypes (the "tectonic edge deck") all he said would be there would be those three types of archetypes, or rather, decks with those cards in them. (If that makes sense. Deck types in general). Not a "Jace archetype, BBE archetype, TE archetype" but rather every deck will either be running Jace (control), Bloodbraid Elf (jund, naya), and everything else which will simply run Tectonic Edge since the former two types of decks are, in Chapin's opinion, so strong as to necessitate Tectonic edge in everything else. It's not that TE is so strong it warrants an archetype, but because it's necessary if you aren't in the former two archetypes.
Which would be "everything else."
I figured this was what he actually meant and not what I had interpreted. In which case I agree but I still don't think Tectonic Edge is "the best" card in standard out of the other cards.
Mono colored decks can tolerate Tectonic edge, usually 21-22 basics/mono-color-lands (mix in the fetches or CIP lands if need be) + 2-3 Tectonic edge. Black has Grim Discovery for recurring Tectonic Edges. It can really disrupt a tri-colored, or even a dual-colored deck to a great degree. Jund may rely on one of their lands to produce red mana, and if you knock it out and they get screwed drawing into another red producing source, they're done for.
But to the OP, it's not the *definitive* card in standard. Chapin was right in that there will be BBE decks and Jace decks. But the comment about Tectonic decks is to be taken likely. Unlike the other two, you can't really rely solely on the Edge to win games for you, and it can be included in so many deck archetypes that it doesn't really becoming the defining card to warrant the title "Tectonic Edge Deck".
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
And it can't be called broken since it's just a balanced Wasteland.
The mechanic of destroying lands beyond counterspells is still good besides, I wholehartedly believe that wasteland is a balanced card! That woulda stopped that pesky Jund and those stupid fast Naya decks... I love legacy
honestly i dont think tectonic edge is really that great. its good yes, but definitly not the best card in any format.
my problem with it is you opponent must have 4 lands already. it doesnt do anyhting but produce mana the first few turns, which is where people are most vulnerable to mana problems. by the time they have 4 lands, killing one may not even screw jund.
sure it is nice to be able to kill a land, because stripmine/sinkhole effects are always nice especially un counterable,but it cant even kill basics and your opponent has at least three other lands. its cool to kill man lands but...your still paying mana and still losing your own land so...
imo this is yet another overhyped card which seems to be happening very often as of late....
[btw im not claiming to be a pro, or saying that they are wrong, but not everything that comes out of pro players mouthes is law(especially when the quotes you take are wrong >.<)]
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Tectonic Edge is pretty good though. I actually think they could've printed Wasteland and it would've been fine in both Standard and Extended, but Edge is a decent replacement.
Perfectly said, I've won matchs where kids have plaid edges and theyve just sat because it's useless and besides, in order to use it you have to loose a land as well whitch can distrupt your tempo just as much as your oponents
Being serious, no, I don't believe it is the best card in standard. Yeah, it can screw over some decks pretty badly, but Boros, RDW, Vamps, WW, Elfdrazi and others don't even flinch at it. There are better candidates for 'best card in standard'.
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It isn't defining the format or anything, but it is really good right now. A single edge will set jund back a turn at least, and possibly cause them to waste their mana for a turn (really, what 4 drops do they run other than elf and garruk, and sometimes master of the hunt?). I think that someone needs to find a use for acidic slime and tectonic edge in a jund-type shell, and then there will be a deck that is both the tectonic edge deck and a bloodbraid elf deck. And that would be really good right now. I've been tinkering around with the idea for a little while, and a tectonic edge deck with acidic slime, edge, and lots of land with oracle of mul daya and explore (possibly treasure hunt as well?) could be an interesting experiment. If the deck turns out to be any good, then we would definitely have a tectonic edge deck in the format.
honestly i dont think tectonic edge is really that great. its good yes, but definitly not the best card in any format.
my problem with it is you opponent must have 4 lands already. it doesnt do anyhting but produce mana the first few turns, which is where people are most vulnerable to mana problems. by the time they have 4 lands, killing one may not even screw jund.
sure it is nice to be able to kill a land, because stripmine/sinkhole effects are always nice especially un counterable,but it cant even kill basics and your opponent has at least three other lands. its cool to kill man lands but...your still paying mana and still losing your own land so...
imo this is yet another overhyped card which seems to be happening very often as of late....
[btw im not claiming to be a pro, or saying that they are wrong, but not everything that comes out of pro players mouthes is law(especially when the quotes you take are wrong >.<)]
You're wrong. The reason you play tectonic edge is not to mana screw jund, its to destroy their manland WITHOUT USING A SPELL. You are undervaluing the ability to leave spell slots open since your lands remove manlands. If you really think killing manlands for no spell slots and uncounterable isn't good, then you might want to listen to some pros more.
i didn't say it wasn't good. i said it was over rated. at the same time your saving a spell spot, your also losing a land in its place since it only produces colorless, and get sacrificed.
btw did you even read the first sentence of my post ;9
honestly i dont think tectonic edge is really that great. its good yes, but definitly not the best card in any format.
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I don't really get why there's this big discussion anyway.
Let's see Wasteland. It's a powerful land that can screw with your opponents plans, especially if you have some beats on the table. It is most useful if you either are playing a tempo-based game plan (advancing your board position while hindering your opponents development) or if you have a way to recur it.
Wasteland doesn't need to be recurred, it is just that good.
Tectonic Edge is basically Wasteland without the usefulness if recurred. If you play a tempo-based deck (like, any aggro/aggro-control deck) and can support lands that tap for colorless, you run it, no questions asked.
Point to my first point, your saying that Tectonic is just like wasteland, which couldn't be more wrong. Although i agree any deck that can support that colorless should run it. It is not a no questions ask, include...
For example, a usual situation would be, you're running white weenie or a red deck. You have 4 Tectonic Edge maindeck. Your opponent is Jund. You drop some beats turn 1-3, while the Jund player struggles to get to 4 mana, to cast a BBE and turn the game around. Then you drop Tectonic Edge and set his board development back a whole turn while still beating down. Getting a time walk for the cost of 1 mana and a land drop is huge when you're the beatdown. In Legacy, usually the tempo deck needs just that crucial one turn to win, before the control deck stabilizes. Wasteland, respectively Tectonic Edge, can buy that one turn for you.
Except, arn't you setting yourself back a turn as well, and tapping yourself down for 1? I mean sure, if jund lets your "beats" run rampant turns 1-3, then your plan would work.
And again, you can't compare legacy to standard. In legacy, the curve is about 1-3, while in standard, we know that isn't really true....
For example, a usual situation would be, you're running white weenie or a red deck. You have 4 Tectonic Edge maindeck. Your opponent is Jund. You drop some beats turn 1-3, while the Jund player struggles to get to 4 mana, to cast a BBE and turn the game around. Then you drop Tectonic Edge and set his board development back a whole turn while still beating down. Getting a time walk for the cost of 1 mana and a land drop is huge when you're the beatdown. In Legacy, usually the tempo deck needs just that crucial one turn to win, before the control deck stabilizes. Wasteland, respectively Tectonic Edge, can buy that one turn for you.
Except that he can drop his 4th land and cast BBE before you can even activate Edge. You won't have priority and even if you did he could tap the land in response to add the mana to his pool and cast BBE anyway. There's pretty much no way Edge is going to prevent a player from casting BBE on T4.
Sure you might keep him off Broodmate Dragon for a turn but the only player truly getting time walked is yourself because you had to leave two lands untapped to activate Edge on the Jund player's T4.
If you play U/W control or UWR Control then it's an awesome card. Otherwise it's pretty mediocre.
Except that he can drop his 4th land and cast BBE before you can even activate Edge. You won't have priority and even if you did he could tap the land in response to add the mana to his pool and cast BBE anyway. There's pretty much no way Edge is going to prevent a player from casting BBE on T4.
Sure you might keep him off Broodmate Dragon for a turn but the only player truly getting time walked is yourself because you had to leave two lands untapped to activate Edge on the Jund player's T4.
If you play U/W control or UWR Control then it's an awesome card. Otherwise it's pretty mediocre.
Jund has alot of taplands and alot of times turn 4 they drop a tap land simply because they have no come-in-to-play-untapped lands
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And Wasteland can't be called broken since it's just a balanced Strip Mine?
BY that logic Hymn to tourach and Brainstorm
aren't broken because they are just fixed mind twist and ancestral recall.
Wasteland itself is a balanced strip mine
arg, NATH'd
Have to disagree on KotR being better than BBE. The fact that you can search for a land and having your creature become bigger is nothing compared to getting a free spell. Especially when you can make it so that free spell deals damage, helps board precesnce, or even answers a threat.
On topic: Chapin had stated on the MTG cruise that there will be three archetypes in place of the traditional ones. These archtypes are Jace, The Mindsculptor Decks, Bloodbraid Elf decks, and Tectonic Edge decks. I could see the Jace and BBE deck easily but Tectonic Edge is something I'm goign to need a little more convincing on. Sure its good, I'm not disputing that and yes it is pretty relevant in todays standard, but I wouldn't say an archetype in of itself would arise with this card at the helm. It will however see play in decks that can easily fit 1-4 copies in them.
There was once [The Pack], but no more.
I am just saying I am playing a deck with 4 Tectonic Edge and it is easily the best card in the deck and I'm playing stuff like Ajani Vengeant, Bolt, Steppe Lynx, Geopede, O-Ring, IE other great cards but whenever I get Tectonic Edge it often seems to lead to wins (except vs monocolor of course)
Well, he didn't say there would be three different archetypes (the "tectonic edge deck") all he said would be there would be those three types of archetypes, or rather, decks with those cards in them. (If that makes sense. Deck types in general). Not a "Jace archetype, BBE archetype, TE archetype" but rather every deck will either be running Jace (control), Bloodbraid Elf (jund, naya), and everything else which will simply run Tectonic Edge since the former two types of decks are, in Chapin's opinion, so strong as to necessitate Tectonic edge in everything else. It's not that TE is so strong it warrants an archetype, but because it's necessary if you aren't in the former two archetypes.
Which would be "everything else."
If it's the best card in standard, or one of the best cards, where is it? One or two in a decklist or two doesn't mean anything, if it's the best, where is it? It's near absence proves exactly my point: it's a decent card but only suited for a limited number of decks or maybe as a one or two-of as a cute trick.
Now if you could use it with your opponent controlling three lands or less then it would be worth it. Keeping a Jund player off BBE mana would be insanely useful. But as it stands it plays out like this: Jund player drops his land on T4. You tap to destroy his non-basic. (So on your T4 or T3 you left Edge and another land untapped). He taps his land in response and continues to play BBE into something nasty. You've now nearly wasted the previous turn, you're back to 3 land too, and the Jund player barely lost any tempo. Sure you might keep him off Broodmate for another turn, but you're just as behind, and there's a the small chance that you might screw with his manabase (but it's unlikely considering how many decks run Rampant Growth or high land counts just to avoid that). If you're running red I'd rather just run Ruinblaster since he comes with a body and doesn't set you back land. And since Ruinblaster isn't even an auto-include, how is Tech Edge going to "create it's own deck archetype"? If you believe that I have some Meddling Mages I'd like to sell you, they're going to crack the format wide open!
Patrick Chapin went 3-3 in ZZW draft, but his Standard matches with UW control pushed him to 14th place. Nassif made top 32 after going 3-0 day in draft and then 0-3 day 2, but his matches with UW pushed him back up.
BTW, a few of those Jund decks didn't have very good Standard records, but the pilots' skill in ZZW draft was enough to put them in top 8. And combined with LSV's dream crushing parade.
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I'm curious as to what deck you were playing. A competitive RWB deck? I'll readily admit that Tectonic Edge is a good card, maybe even a great card, but it is not the best card in Standard. The card is dead against a number of competitive decks and archetpes (ie Vampires, White Weenie) and there are plenty of mono-colored tier 1.5 decks that it would have little impact on (ie Eldrazi Green in which it only hits Oran Rief the Vastwood).
Current decks:
Legacy: Zoo, Aggro Elves, The Gate, White Weenie, Red Deck Wins, and Merfolk. Currently building Solidarity.
Casual: Warp World Revolution and Old School Red-Green.
Standard: Ob-Nixilis Wave and Elves.
I figured this was what he actually meant and not what I had interpreted. In which case I agree but I still don't think Tectonic Edge is "the best" card in standard out of the other cards.
There was once [The Pack], but no more.
But to the OP, it's not the *definitive* card in standard. Chapin was right in that there will be BBE decks and Jace decks. But the comment about Tectonic decks is to be taken likely. Unlike the other two, you can't really rely solely on the Edge to win games for you, and it can be included in so many deck archetypes that it doesn't really becoming the defining card to warrant the title "Tectonic Edge Deck".
WUBRG
The mechanic of destroying lands beyond counterspells is still good besides, I wholehartedly believe that wasteland is a balanced card! That woulda stopped that pesky Jund and those stupid fast Naya decks... I love legacy
That's a top 5 draft pick! Don't pick on that guy he is huge!
my problem with it is you opponent must have 4 lands already. it doesnt do anyhting but produce mana the first few turns, which is where people are most vulnerable to mana problems. by the time they have 4 lands, killing one may not even screw jund.
sure it is nice to be able to kill a land, because stripmine/sinkhole effects are always nice especially un counterable,but it cant even kill basics and your opponent has at least three other lands. its cool to kill man lands but...your still paying mana and still losing your own land so...
imo this is yet another overhyped card which seems to be happening very often as of late....
[btw im not claiming to be a pro, or saying that they are wrong, but not everything that comes out of pro players mouthes is law(especially when the quotes you take are wrong >.<)]
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Tectonic Edge is pretty good though. I actually think they could've printed Wasteland and it would've been fine in both Standard and Extended, but Edge is a decent replacement.
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You're wrong. The reason you play tectonic edge is not to mana screw jund, its to destroy their manland WITHOUT USING A SPELL. You are undervaluing the ability to leave spell slots open since your lands remove manlands. If you really think killing manlands for no spell slots and uncounterable isn't good, then you might want to listen to some pros more.
btw did you even read the first sentence of my post ;9
honestly i dont think tectonic edge is really that great. its good yes, but definitly not the best card in any format.
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Wasteland doesn't need to be recurred, it is just that good.
Point to my first point, your saying that Tectonic is just like wasteland, which couldn't be more wrong. Although i agree any deck that can support that colorless should run it. It is not a no questions ask, include...
Except, arn't you setting yourself back a turn as well, and tapping yourself down for 1? I mean sure, if jund lets your "beats" run rampant turns 1-3, then your plan would work.
And again, you can't compare legacy to standard. In legacy, the curve is about 1-3, while in standard, we know that isn't really true....
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Except that he can drop his 4th land and cast BBE before you can even activate Edge. You won't have priority and even if you did he could tap the land in response to add the mana to his pool and cast BBE anyway. There's pretty much no way Edge is going to prevent a player from casting BBE on T4.
Sure you might keep him off Broodmate Dragon for a turn but the only player truly getting time walked is yourself because you had to leave two lands untapped to activate Edge on the Jund player's T4.
If you play U/W control or UWR Control then it's an awesome card. Otherwise it's pretty mediocre.
Jund has alot of taplands and alot of times turn 4 they drop a tap land simply because they have no come-in-to-play-untapped lands