I find it comical that I mentioned a number of pages earlier, that winning via Jace TMSculptor's Ultimate was perfectly viable as the sole win condition. I got flamed hardcore for it, only to see Chapin do reasonably well. Oh well, lol.
I do think hsi deck has to morph to suit your personal metagame. Thats what his list did, attack a metagame, so you have to evolve the deck to fight your metagame.
I like Chapin's list, but aggro eats it alive, but you can see that from looking at it. Thats why he had those life gain dorks. Anyway, that build won't serve me well here without adjustments. Mainly, upping the removal count (like Pte). Prolly some sort of damage prevention either in the sideboard or main, like ASong/SPassage, etc). I know from playing against Zoo enough, even 4 Pte/4DoJ won't save you. You also need other tools, like JTMSculptor (obviously), and Elspeth woudn't hurt (can make dudes, and pump Celestial Colonnades!). Come on folk, gotta rennovate decks to suit what you need, not copy pro lists (which they made to fight their metagames).
I find it comical that I mentioned a number of pages earlier, that winning via Jace TMSculptor's Ultimate was perfectly viable as the sole win condition. I got flamed hardcore for it, only to see Chapin do reasonably well. Oh well, lol.
Jace Ultimate is not the sole win condition on Chapin list. True, he doesn't have as many as a WUr list, but he surely has more than 1 (man-land, Iona, MC, etc).
The main win condition aside from Jace, is a turn 4 Matial Coup filling the board with creatures. He also hits hard with manlands and sets up for Iona. He can kill out before she even hits the board though. Just the ability to control the board from the beginning...that's the key.
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
I know it sounds weird, but Deft Duelist answers agro decks. it's been testing very well for me.
It can help against RDW b/c Duelist > Ball Lightning, Goblin Guide, HS Elemental but to say it beats "aggro decks" might be presumptuous. Allies, elves, and boros often create creatures that blow up in size making DD underwhelming. This is why a couple may be better for the sideboard. Paths are probably the way to go for their ability to remove at a low low cost
I like Chapin's list, but aggro eats it alive, but you can see that from looking at it. Thats why he had those life gain dorks. Anyway, that build won't serve me well here without adjustments. Mainly, upping the removal count (like Pte). Prolly some sort of damage prevention either in the sideboard or main, like ASong/SPassage, etc). I know from playing against Zoo enough, even 4 Pte/4DoJ won't save you. You also need other tools, like JTMSculptor (obviously), and Elspeth woudn't hurt (can make dudes, and pump Celestial Colonnades!). Come on folk, gotta rennovate decks to suit what you need, not copy pro lists (which they made to fight their metagames).
1. Only Boros and RDW eat it alive, whereas Vampires, White Weenie, and Jund are actually positive match-ups.
2. The point of playing only one Path is that you don't want to give them lands. I mean what, you thought the Edges were in there for looks?
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I don't think SoJI fits in Chapin's particular build of UW, because you don't have much in the way of walls, spot removal, etc - you're more relying on bounce + mass removal to keep on top of your opponent. Sphinx is great in UWr because it can either act as a bomb beater, or sit back as a wall and protect your Vengeant that's keeping their BSA tapped down. Chapin's build is more traditional "clear the board and counter whatever they play" control, so Sphinx doesn't really fit with it.
Heh, Unearth vs Tectonic Edge. It's not exactly the greatest matchup, but then, it's not exactly the greatest deck, either. There's no reason to plan for Tier 2- decks that you'll never see past round one of a tournament.
And as far as Jace1, sweet monkey jesus on a pogo stick I hope you're joking, there's no way you'd use Jace1 over Jace2in UW.
I was talking about the MU against Mill, not including ver.1 in our deck. It seems more managable to go up against that particular match. That is UW vs. Mill as opposed to UWr vs. Mill.
As for discard/unearth BR Persecutor, yeah, the deck might be Teir.2 or it could be a meta-call deck. It has a good MU against UWr, and Jund. Seems it could fair well against UW as well.
On a side note, why is everyone calling UW, Tectonic Edge? I understand the card goes in as a 4-of. I can see myself drawing and searching for as many of those as I can while using the chalaces to get off my bigger spells. But as a whole, is Tectonic Edge a worthy name?
Ok, I understand why he has 1 Pte mainboard, because he doesn't want to ramp his opponent. However, that being said, some other form of early removal/stall might help. I play in a very aggressive meta-game with plenty of Rogue junk roaming around. So, in my metagame, I was just curious as to possibly changing some things after I playtest Chapin's list extensivley.
Not trying to be mean, but what would silence achieve? You already have counterspells, just counter what they would be playing. There are so many manlands in the format, that you're hardly slowing them down either.
Yes, Elspeth is an absolute must. At best, she pumps my tokens that I generated with Martial Coup, or my manlands, or her own token that she made. At worst she absorbs 5-7 damage that was going to be thrown at my face. Either way, considering this decks stalls and digs for win-cons via treasure hunt, halimar depths, and jace 2.0, Elspeth fulfills all of our necessities.
Also, I NEVER drop platinum angel turn 7 if I have it. Against jund especially, I know that they are going to board out terminate and 1-2 pulses. If I see a pulse early on, especially my martial coup'd tokens or maybe a chalice, I will be mentally thinking about how much removal he might have left. When I dropped the angel for the win against jund earlier, he had already burned 3 bolts on my tokens that elspeth was going to pump, (2 on a token that would be swinging in for 4 flying) and 1 to my face, and 2 bit blasts (I assumed he boarded out his 3rd or 4th if he was running 4). So I knew that his only removal he had left in his deck was 1 bolt, and MAYBE one pulse. I just made sure not to attack or block with the angel and wait for my win-con. I forgot to mention to that Martial Coup is one of the best "aces-in-the-hole" you can possibly have in this deck. With the chalices on the board, I have coup'd for 10 more times than I can remember, and if you don't have a DoJ in your hand, but you have an elspeth on the board with a chalice or 2, you can coup for 7 turn 4 or 5 and pump those tokens and keep elspeth alive all day. Popping elspeth's last ability, then dropping a platinum angel... seems good
Also, I NEVER drop platinum angel turn 7 if I have it. Against jund especially, I know that they are going to board out terminate and 1-2 pulses. If I see a pulse early on, especially my martial coup'd tokens or maybe a chalice, I will be mentally thinking about how much removal he might have left. When I dropped the angel for the win against jund earlier, he had already burned 3 bolts on my tokens that elspeth was going to pump, (2 on a token that would be swinging in for 4 flying) and 1 to my face, and 2 bit blasts (I assumed he boarded out his 3rd or 4th if he was running 4). So I knew that his only removal he had left in his deck was 1 bolt, and MAYBE one pulse. I just made sure not to attack or block with the angel and wait for my win-con. I forgot to mention to that Martial Coup is one of the best "aces-in-the-hole" you can possibly have in this deck. With the chalices on the board, I have coup'd for 10 more times than I can remember, and if you don't have a DoJ in your hand, but you have an elspeth on the board with a chalice or 2, you can coup for 7 turn 4 or 5 and pump those tokens and keep elspeth alive all day. Popping elspeth's last ability, then dropping a platinum angel... seems good
Platinum Angel is garbage. Look at it this way, If you drop a baneslayer and its left alone it basically reads "you win the game". I can't see a situation where I'd want platinum angel over baneslayer.
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Quote from thundyr »
Jacerator is an aggro deck - it just wins by attacking the library, it doesn't really control the board other than to play a few Fogs
Has anyone tried splashing black for the esper charm? The drowning catacombs and access to the tri-land and B/U manland it's not as bad. Black also access to cheap early removal like smother and agony warp as well.
Platinum Angel is garbage. Look at it this way, If you drop a baneslayer and its left alone it basically reads "you win the game". I can't see a situation where I'd want platinum angel over baneslayer.
Not to mention SoJI is cheaper, has shroud and has synergy with treasure hunt/Jace/Fetches.
Has anyone tried splashing black for the esper charm? The drowning catacombs and access to the tri-land and B/U manland it's not as bad. Black also access to cheap early removal like smother and agony warp as well.
the splash basically makes tectonic edge impossible to play. It also kind of messes with chalice. I think treasure hunt works well enough where you don't need to splash for charm.
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Quote from thundyr »
Jacerator is an aggro deck - it just wins by attacking the library, it doesn't really control the board other than to play a few Fogs
You start to run out of answers after they blightning, and you can't signet unless they tap out, and even then if they pulse your tempo loss is realy bad. I think this list needs more spot removal, because a turn 2 Leech/KotR/KotWO really hurts if you don't find those answers soon. I run 4 DoJ and am still finding myself overwhelmed (BossNaya can be a tough match if they know what they're doing)
Lapse of certanity has great synergy with jace (counter spell on T3 (or 2) then lay jace next turn, +2 him and get rid of the card you countered) WORST case scenario it buys you a turn to find an answer (something this deck strives on is being able to manipulate the library to find the answers neccessary) I think you would have to be a smart control player to make this card work, using it only when you have seen what you have coming up in your library to make a difference to its effect.. but i think ANOTHER hard counter is so needed in this deck.
The deck runs 4 Everflowing Chalices so its not hard to use that to the advantage of the extra mana cost for mindbreak trap, and it stops the cascade mechanic cold in its tracks.. helping even more in the Jund matchup.
Both are HARD COUNTERS which is crucial to this decks success. I just think that at the end of the day relying on negate and scatter is terrible for a control deck. Granted, a lot of matchups can be made easier with flashfreeze as another hard counter option, but thats usually AFTER sideboard (unless your meta can allow you to MD those cards, which mine doesnt really wiht tons of WW and vamps)
I dont personally play this deck, my friend built it (exact copy of chaplins list) and i was playing my jund deck vs him, i stomped him 3-0. Neither of us SB`d and havent had a whole lot of time to play test with him since, but will be soon.
I have played alot of Grixis Control in this format, and am used to control decks overall.. i think hard counters are teh key to making it work, i LOVE the fact this deck is running Cancel, i think lapse and mindbreak can fit in this deck imo.
Just my two cents on this deck.
lapse of certainty is one mana away from being playable, at 3 you don't want it to be sitting in your hand wishing it was essence scatter. Mindbreak trap is too expensive as well, I don't find it playable, especially when there is no deck to take advantage of it's "trap" cost (wizards designed it as bad to begin with but great with trap cost).
I like chapins list but I think that adding B for esper charm, creeping tar pits and smothers md w/ access to stuff like duress and some of the vamps sb makes it very viable. although the ramp effects that U/W uses are quite powerful.
I would go with earthquake if you want to run wall of denials. Its pretty good against naya and jund also. Not the greatest against mono-r but WoD is soo good in that matchup that it basically doesnt matter. That said maybe play 4 wall of denials or atleast another in the side. You also might want to lower your halimar depths count and up your fetchland count.
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Quote from thundyr »
Jacerator is an aggro deck - it just wins by attacking the library, it doesn't really control the board other than to play a few Fogs
1. Only Boros and RDW eat it alive, whereas Vampires, White Weenie, and Jund are actually positive match-ups.
2. The point of playing only one Path is that you don't want to give them lands. I mean what, you thought the Edges were in there for looks?
But the Edges are so pretty...lol!
In all seriousness though, I would up the count of Oblivion Rings before I upped the count of Path. Plus, the Celestial Purge could realistly replace Path if your meta calls for it.
Shin is right, Path is opposed to the Tectonic Plan.
Actualy the Edges are mainly in there to battle manlands, not for mana denial. If you play the mana denial route, you just don't play your path until lategame. It isn't bad to play more Paths. Like Brian Kibler did in his list at the San Diego side event where he was 2nd.
I do think hsi deck has to morph to suit your personal metagame. Thats what his list did, attack a metagame, so you have to evolve the deck to fight your metagame.
I like Chapin's list, but aggro eats it alive, but you can see that from looking at it. Thats why he had those life gain dorks. Anyway, that build won't serve me well here without adjustments. Mainly, upping the removal count (like Pte). Prolly some sort of damage prevention either in the sideboard or main, like ASong/SPassage, etc). I know from playing against Zoo enough, even 4 Pte/4DoJ won't save you. You also need other tools, like JTMSculptor (obviously), and Elspeth woudn't hurt (can make dudes, and pump Celestial Colonnades!). Come on folk, gotta rennovate decks to suit what you need, not copy pro lists (which they made to fight their metagames).
Jace Ultimate is not the sole win condition on Chapin list. True, he doesn't have as many as a WUr list, but he surely has more than 1 (man-land, Iona, MC, etc).
It can help against RDW b/c Duelist > Ball Lightning, Goblin Guide, HS Elemental but to say it beats "aggro decks" might be presumptuous. Allies, elves, and boros often create creatures that blow up in size making DD underwhelming. This is why a couple may be better for the sideboard. Paths are probably the way to go for their ability to remove at a low low cost
You're deck should have other answers :/
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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1. Only Boros and RDW eat it alive, whereas Vampires, White Weenie, and Jund are actually positive match-ups.
2. The point of playing only one Path is that you don't want to give them lands. I mean what, you thought the Edges were in there for looks?
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I was talking about the MU against Mill, not including ver.1 in our deck. It seems more managable to go up against that particular match. That is UW vs. Mill as opposed to UWr vs. Mill.
As for discard/unearth BR Persecutor, yeah, the deck might be Teir.2 or it could be a meta-call deck. It has a good MU against UWr, and Jund. Seems it could fair well against UW as well.
On a side note, why is everyone calling UW, Tectonic Edge? I understand the card goes in as a 4-of. I can see myself drawing and searching for as many of those as I can while using the chalaces to get off my bigger spells. But as a whole, is Tectonic Edge a worthy name?
Yes, Elspeth is an absolute must. At best, she pumps my tokens that I generated with Martial Coup, or my manlands, or her own token that she made. At worst she absorbs 5-7 damage that was going to be thrown at my face. Either way, considering this decks stalls and digs for win-cons via treasure hunt, halimar depths, and jace 2.0, Elspeth fulfills all of our necessities.
Also, I NEVER drop platinum angel turn 7 if I have it. Against jund especially, I know that they are going to board out terminate and 1-2 pulses. If I see a pulse early on, especially my martial coup'd tokens or maybe a chalice, I will be mentally thinking about how much removal he might have left. When I dropped the angel for the win against jund earlier, he had already burned 3 bolts on my tokens that elspeth was going to pump, (2 on a token that would be swinging in for 4 flying) and 1 to my face, and 2 bit blasts (I assumed he boarded out his 3rd or 4th if he was running 4). So I knew that his only removal he had left in his deck was 1 bolt, and MAYBE one pulse. I just made sure not to attack or block with the angel and wait for my win-con. I forgot to mention to that Martial Coup is one of the best "aces-in-the-hole" you can possibly have in this deck. With the chalices on the board, I have coup'd for 10 more times than I can remember, and if you don't have a DoJ in your hand, but you have an elspeth on the board with a chalice or 2, you can coup for 7 turn 4 or 5 and pump those tokens and keep elspeth alive all day. Popping elspeth's last ability, then dropping a platinum angel... seems good
Platinum Angel is garbage. Look at it this way, If you drop a baneslayer and its left alone it basically reads "you win the game". I can't see a situation where I'd want platinum angel over baneslayer.
Not to mention SoJI is cheaper, has shroud and has synergy with treasure hunt/Jace/Fetches.
the splash basically makes tectonic edge impossible to play. It also kind of messes with chalice. I think treasure hunt works well enough where you don't need to splash for charm.
You start to run out of answers after they blightning, and you can't signet unless they tap out, and even then if they pulse your tempo loss is realy bad. I think this list needs more spot removal, because a turn 2 Leech/KotR/KotWO really hurts if you don't find those answers soon. I run 4 DoJ and am still finding myself overwhelmed (BossNaya can be a tough match if they know what they're doing)
What counters primarily are being used..
I know that Cancel is getting play, seemingly with that is 2 essence scatter and 2 negates.
Why not run lapse of certainty and mindbreak trap
Lapse of certanity has great synergy with jace (counter spell on T3 (or 2) then lay jace next turn, +2 him and get rid of the card you countered) WORST case scenario it buys you a turn to find an answer (something this deck strives on is being able to manipulate the library to find the answers neccessary) I think you would have to be a smart control player to make this card work, using it only when you have seen what you have coming up in your library to make a difference to its effect.. but i think ANOTHER hard counter is so needed in this deck.
The deck runs 4 Everflowing Chalices so its not hard to use that to the advantage of the extra mana cost for mindbreak trap, and it stops the cascade mechanic cold in its tracks.. helping even more in the Jund matchup.
Both are HARD COUNTERS which is crucial to this decks success. I just think that at the end of the day relying on negate and scatter is terrible for a control deck. Granted, a lot of matchups can be made easier with flashfreeze as another hard counter option, but thats usually AFTER sideboard (unless your meta can allow you to MD those cards, which mine doesnt really wiht tons of WW and vamps)
I dont personally play this deck, my friend built it (exact copy of chaplins list) and i was playing my jund deck vs him, i stomped him 3-0. Neither of us SB`d and havent had a whole lot of time to play test with him since, but will be soon.
I have played alot of Grixis Control in this format, and am used to control decks overall.. i think hard counters are teh key to making it work, i LOVE the fact this deck is running Cancel, i think lapse and mindbreak can fit in this deck imo.
Just my two cents on this deck.
p.s Here is what my list would look like.
1x iona
planeswalkers
4x jace the mind sculptor
1x elspeth
spells
4x cancel
2x mindbreak trap
2x lapse of certainty
1x path to exile
2x martial coup
4x day of judgement
2x mind spring
4x treasure hunt
3x oblivion rings
4x everflowing chalice
4x halimar depths
4x tectonic edge
4x glacial fortress
4x celestial colonnade
4x plains
4x islands
I like chapins list but I think that adding B for esper charm, creeping tar pits and smothers md w/ access to stuff like duress and some of the vamps sb makes it very viable. although the ramp effects that U/W uses are quite powerful.
It seems good, but like before, if you get an angel that sticks, why have anything other than baneslayer?
it beats a baneslayer, gets rid of thing BSA doesn't, gets rid of BSA out of combat.
But the Edges are so pretty...lol!
In all seriousness though, I would up the count of Oblivion Rings before I upped the count of Path. Plus, the Celestial Purge could realistly replace Path if your meta calls for it.
Shin is right, Path is opposed to the Tectonic Plan.
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