8 mana for 2 cards with Sundial compared to 4 mana for 2 cards makes capsule seem so much better, but I think it's the repeatable draw of Sundial that gives it potential. Even as you play it out, the mana cost per card drawn gets closer and closer to 2:1. That's in theory anyway.
I also know that Jayemdae Tome saw play in some constructed control decks in the past, and I would expect that with fetchlands, Sundial would always be better than Tome. It's no Phyrexian Arena, but repeatable card draw IS a good thing for control decks. I would envision playing the Sundial late game (turn 7+), then at some point you drop a fetch, pay 2 and draw, then on their EOT, activate fetch, pay 2 more, and draw another card. Between those 2 and the 1 for your next turn, you'll probably pick up another land to be able to do it again.
In theory, I think it would be a decent card so I'm just trying to get someone to try it out since it will be awhile before I can finish this type of deck. (missing several commons/uncommons and vengeant)
Regarding the 4 mana slot being full, that's just the price to pay when it comes to looking at new cards. Old ones might need to come out. I'd just like to see someone try it and give it a good thumbs up or down.
Wall of reverence is ok in this deck. Some people like it I personally would rather run another threat, mine comes in the form of abyssal persecutor. Firewalker will be good against boros, RDW, and Jund. He seems to be sideboard material to me. He has some synergy with the deck, but when you go up against eldrazi green, vamps, GWx Junk, Naya lightsaber, or UWx control you're going to be wishing you had a different spell.
WoR been working pretty well for me.
the life gain is really relevent and it is a threat they have to removal if they want to get some damage through.
personally firewalker is sb material...and a mana intensive sb material
you only got 15 slots in your deck so think wisely
8 mana for 2 cards with Sundial compared to 4 mana for 2 cards makes capsule seem so much better, but I think it's the repeatable draw of Sundial that gives it potential. Even as you play it out, the mana cost per card drawn gets closer and closer to 2:1. That's in theory anyway.
I also know that Jayemdae Tome saw play in some constructed control decks in the past, and I would expect that with fetchlands, Sundial would always be better than Tome. It's no Phyrexian Arena, but repeatable card draw IS a good thing for control decks. I would envision playing the Sundial late game (turn 7+), then at some point you drop a fetch, pay 2 and draw, then on their EOT, activate fetch, pay 2 more, and draw another card. Between those 2 and the 1 for your next turn, you'll probably pick up another land to be able to do it again.
In theory, I think it would be a decent card so I'm just trying to get someone to try it out since it will be awhile before I can finish this type of deck. (missing several commons/uncommons and vengeant)
Regarding the 4 mana slot being full, that's just the price to pay when it comes to looking at new cards. Old ones might need to come out. I'd just like to see someone try it and give it a good thumbs up or down.
my speculation is that the odds is going to be bad.
conditional drawing that doesn't pay out so good and almost all of your 4 drops are irreplaceable. coming down t4 it does no impact to the board and I believe there are better turn 6 plays.
and in Theory it would play out nicely but given that you have fetch land to crack late game I think I'll at least use up like 3 fetches on avg by turn 6. which really gives me the doubt of testing that card.
My speculation is that my build isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and I believe my build has a good balance against both control and aggro. and very limited completely dead cards (just the 4 terminates) when it comes to shroud creatures.
As for now the part I really have to work on is the sb choices.
knight of the reliquary, rhox war monk, steppe lynx, emeria angel, wooly thoctar basically any and all aggressive white creatures and flies right through wall of reverence and wall of denial.
knight of the reliquary, rhox war monk, steppe lynx, emeria angel, wooly thoctar basically any and all aggressive white creatures and flies right through wall of reverence and wall of denial.
how does any of those except for emeria angel "fly" through WoR or WoD?
you do run bolt and earthquake for a reason. and Bolt/terminate deals with emeria
how does any of those except for emeria angel "fly" through WoR or WoD?
you do run bolt and earthquake for a reason. and Bolt/terminate deals with emeria
They are saying that Malakir Bloodwitch can fly through and opponent's WoR or WoD. Go go pro-white.
EDIT: I agree with this suggestion. At least SB worthy.
letthererbeblight is saying Bloodwitch flies thru WoR/WoD.
I think I might try switching to Earthquake over BitBlast. It seems like mono colored decks are going to be more prevalent now and quake is a good sweeper and another wincon like WaterBleu said.
Unfortunately, I won't have much WWK to use, but that's okay because we are still discussing and testing what should/should not be added to the deck.
Does anyone think Searing Blaze should be tested as well? Like firewalker could be too mana intensive.
letthererbeblight is saying Bloodwitch flies thru WoR/WoD.
I think I might try switching to Earthquake over BitBlast. It seems like mono colored decks are going to be more prevalent now and quake is a good sweeper and another wincon like WaterBleu said.
Unfortunately, I won't have much WWK to use, but that's okay because we are still discussing and testing what should/should not be added to the deck.
Does anyone think Searing Blaze should be tested as well? Like firewalker could be too mana intensive.
I think putting in Searing Blaze may really screw with our mana base. Right now, the deck can pretty much work off of one red source ( Except those with SGC ).
This is what I came up with. Any ideas or suggestions?
letthererbeblight is saying Bloodwitch flies thru WoR/WoD.
I think I might try switching to Earthquake over BitBlast. It seems like mono colored decks are going to be more prevalent now and quake is a good sweeper and another wincon like WaterBleu said.
Unfortunately, I won't have much WWK to use, but that's okay because we are still discussing and testing what should/should not be added to the deck.
Does anyone think Searing Blaze should be tested as well? Like firewalker could be too mana intensive.
We don't really get any good stuff from WWK or as much as I hope we would get. Basilisk Collar was a card I wasn't tempted to test to begin with. but it proves to be less of a dead cards when it comes to shroud creatures. With decent amount of creature/token generation it should be awesome.
I'll go through the card choice detail in OP sometimes soon.
I strongly encourage people to give my list a try ^__^
On turn turn 9 (10 if you want her to stay around), sorry but between turn three and nine I foresee playing a sweeper. Two toughness creatures do not work well with our deck. The only way they live is if its a 1 damage earthquake.
is there a reason why these decks aren't MD'ing malakir bloodwitch? she stops baneslayer and a ton of other dudes.
personally i'm not running her because everything she stops dies to terminate, nighthawk, or even DoJ anyway and the top of the curve stops with baneslayers. maybe if a mono white deck becomes prevalent i might consider a couple bloodwitchs to complement my baneslayers, 2 witch 3 slayer main the rest in the side, but for now its unnecessary
as for the sundial i agree with waterbleu. its just not efficient enough for this deck. everything in here is highly efficient and does something immediately when it hits the board but the sundial would sit around until you got a land and had extra mana so you could afford to use it. sure its got some nice synergy with grim discovery but even that is not enough for me to go out of my way to try it out. i would have to find slots for it and i haven't been able to find a place for sign in blood yet so there's no chance of that.
i would like a couple signs though so if anyone has any ideas let me know, my build is a page back i think
@waterbleu- how are the martial coup working out for you? i'm curious as to how they would play out in this deck but will probably stick with DoJ because i can wrath the board 3 turns earlier with it
personally i'm not running her because everything she stops dies to terminate, nighthawk, or even DoJ anyway and the top of the curve stops with baneslayers. maybe if a mono white deck becomes prevalent i might consider a couple bloodwitchs to complement my baneslayers, 2 witch 3 slayer main the rest in the side, but for now its unnecessary
as for the sundial i agree with waterbleu. its just not efficient enough for this deck. everything in here is highly efficient and does something immediately when it hits the board but the sundial would sit around until you got a land and had extra mana so you could afford to use it. sure its got some nice synergy with grim discovery but even that is not enough for me to go out of my way to try it out. i would have to find slots for it and i haven't been able to find a place for sign in blood yet so there's no chance of that.
i would like a couple signs though so if anyone has any ideas let me know, my build is a page back i think
@waterbleu- how are the martial coup working out for you? i'm curious as to how they would play out in this deck but will probably stick with DoJ because i can wrath the board 3 turns earlier with it
I don't have much problem with your build.
Other than it is really more aggro than control *looks at bloodghast*
and I think you sb need some rework
I haven't run into situation where I need a t4 wrath (usually earthquake would do the trick)
I normally keep the board relatively clean. the martial coup is really just a turn around card
Mind Rot is a terrible, terrible topdeck after you've gotten rid of their hand already. 4x Blightning plus 4x Mind Rot is not a good choice. Trust me. Tone it down to 4x Blightning main deck and fit 2-3 Mind Rots on the side against things like control. Aggro is horrifically prevalent in almost every metagame, and 8 discard spells will lose their power very, very fast.
I feel if you're going to play 2x Day of Judgement and 2x Earthquake, you might be better off with a 4x of one of the two. Or another combination of the two. I want my sweeper to be there when I need it, and that's why I run 3x to 4x Day of Judgement, because then I'll see it more often.
You have problems against too much removal because you run 4x Baneslayer and 4x Persecutor and that's it. You rely on them to win, but you can't keep them on the table. Persecutor is not as good as this community would have you believe, and as a four-of it's pretty terrible. The downside is too easily exploited and any good player will exploit it to no end. Not only that, but it can cost you the game. As to the difficulties, try to fit in some cheaper dudes that are threats (like Vampire Nighthawk).
Fleshbag Marauder is not a good option for SB, I feel. I assume you have it for Sphinx of the Jwar Isle, and that makes sense, but I feel that spot would be better used for something else.
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This is my change to Earthquake over BitBlast. I'm going to try out WoR, but I only have one, same with manland, otherwise would probably be two. Added Sign in Blood for more draw and possibly damage FTW. Comet Storm was just a throw in, but also considering 1x Rise from the Grave. It could be useful considering we play Blightning or we just get our own BSA/SGC back. Last card I was thinking about was Harm's Way. Nice damage fodder that could save your planeswalkers, save nighthawk from being lightning bolted, and even redirect 2 of your earthquake damage to your opponent instead.
What is the thought on Magma Phoenix in this deck as perhaps a 1-2 of? It carries a universal 3-quake that most of our creatures resist. It can hold back (and potentially kill) A. Persecutor, Bloodwitch, Jwar Sphinx, and most aggro creatures (ie gob, elf, vamp, etc). Though the Phoenix can't kill BSA on its own, it puts it in range to be finished with Bolt/Ajani. The "player" damage from it hitting the graveyard can strike planeswalkers if need be and obviously on turns where you have nothing better to do, it recurs itself.
Cases against might be that it adds to the five hole while bumping up the necessary red needed to run the deck and path can take it out with little reward in return though the latter could be said about any shroudless creature. I'm not necessarily an advocate of the guy, but he does seem to have a decent amount of pros to balance out manageable cons IMO.
And if, by some miracle Basilisk Collar becomes playable, it's the perfect creature for it.
Edit: I also like it more than SGC for that slot as it'd be less mana intensive to get the damage effects, doesn't get in the way of your own earthquake and in the case of creature-heavy decks that run Baneslayer (ie naya/rock) baneslayer's first strike works against it in the case of swinging into it as she'd potentially set her army to be wiped before they could deal damage.
Mind Rot is a terrible, terrible topdeck after you've gotten rid of their hand already. 4x Blightning plus 4x Mind Rot is not a good choice. Trust me. Tone it down to 4x Blightning main deck and fit 2-3 Mind Rots on the side against things like control. Aggro is horrifically prevalent in almost every metagame, and 8 discard spells will lose their power very, very fast.
I feel if you're going to play 2x Day of Judgement and 2x Earthquake, you might be better off with a 4x of one of the two. Or another combination of the two. I want my sweeper to be there when I need it, and that's why I run 3x to 4x Day of Judgement, because then I'll see it more often.
You have problems against too much removal because you run 4x Baneslayer and 4x Persecutor and that's it. You rely on them to win, but you can't keep them on the table. Persecutor is not as good as this community would have you believe, and as a four-of it's pretty terrible. The downside is too easily exploited and any good player will exploit it to no end. Not only that, but it can cost you the game. As to the difficulties, try to fit in some cheaper dudes that are threats (like Vampire Nighthawk).
Fleshbag Marauder is not a good option for SB, I feel. I assume you have it for Sphinx of the Jwar Isle, and that makes sense, but I feel that spot would be better used for something else.
I agree with you on most points here gemone. Max Lion needs less discard and more threats, its an easy swap in my opinion. 3cc Mindrot for Vampire Nighthawk.
On the case of Persecutor, he is good. Max Lion runs 7 spot removals that can kill the persecutor, that's plenty to get the job done. I will agree on the four of though. You'll never want to run two out in play, that's just crazy. I would suggest downing it to a three of and possibly two. On the matter of player's being able to make it a helpful card instead of a threat, I agree. In my experiences though only control has the ability. It is why I have 3 malakir bloodwitches in my sideboard. If counter magic is a problem then persecutor becomes a liability (at least in my opinion).
What is the thought on Magma Phoenix in this deck as perhaps a 1-2 of? It carries a universal 3-quake that most of our creatures resist. It can hold back (and potentially kill) A. Persecutor, Bloodwitch, Jwar Sphinx, and most aggro creatures (ie gob, elf, vamp, etc). Though the Phoenix can't kill BSA on its own, it puts it in range to be finished with Bolt/Ajani. The "player" damage from it hitting the graveyard can strike planeswalkers if need be and obviously on turns where you have nothing better to do, it recurs itself.
Cases against might be that it adds to the five hole while bumping up the necessary red needed to run the deck and path can take it out with little reward in return though the latter could be said about any shroudless creature. I'm not necessarily an advocate of the guy, but he does seem to have a decent amount of pros to balance out manageable cons IMO.
And if, by some miracle Basilisk Collar becomes playable, it's the perfect creature for it.
Edit: I also like it more than SGC for that slot as it'd be less mana intensive to get the damage effects, doesn't get in the way of your own earthquake and in the case of creature-heavy decks that run Baneslayer (ie naya/rock) baneslayer's first strike works against it in the case of swinging into it as she'd potentially set her army to be wiped before they could deal damage.
Magma Phoenix is lack-luster, I had tested it in the beginning of this thread's discussion (might want to read through the whole thread). Yes it can kill big nasties, but it isn't a good finisher. If you are dropping something on turn five in this deck it should be able to scare your opponent. The magma phoenix from my testing just doesn't get the job done. He only swings for 3 and he's lightning bolt bait, which makes him a liability. There were points in a couple games where I was scared of my own creature. He can be played around too easily and manipulated to be a boon to your opponent instead of a bane.
Control get rid of him easily and aggro isn't scared of a board sweeper by turn six/five.
Your argument to the phoenix whipping out a naya/rock decks army but not the BSA is mute. If the baneslayer is alive you still loose.
Magma Phoenix is lack-luster, I had tested it in the beginning of this thread's discussion (might want to read through the whole thread). Yes it can kill big nasties, but it isn't a good finisher. If you are dropping something on turn five in this deck it should be able to scare your opponent. The magma phoenix from my testing just doesn't get the job done. He only swings for 3 and he's lightning bolt bait, which makes him a liability. There were points in a couple games where I was scared of my own creature. He can be played around too easily and manipulated to be a boon to your opponent instead of a bane.
Control get rid of him easily and aggro isn't scared of a board sweeper by turn six/five.
Your argument to the phoenix whipping out a naya/rock decks army but not the BSA is mute. If the baneslayer is alive you still loose.
Oh I saw your earlier posts, I'm just trying to get multiple opinions and revisit the proposition if you don't mind. The points you made are definitely noted however, the biggest of which being its lack of swinging power.
My thought wasn't so much in line with the Phoenix being a finisher as much as a piece of utility and while not specifically against BSA, it was a not-so-unlikely scenario where I think "taking out an army" (an implied 2-3 for 1) and blocking the swing for 5 with one card seems like an okay exchange especially when we have lots of spot in the deck.
The thought was that aggro would not exactly enjoy running their creatures into a board wipe and while yes, control can handle it, control can also handle every other creature we run can be handled similarly.
Oh I saw your earlier posts, I'm just trying to get multiple opinions and revisit the proposition if you don't mind. The points you made are definitely noted however, the biggest of which being its lack of swinging power.
My thought wasn't so much in line with the Phoenix being a finisher as much as a piece of utility and while not specifically against BSA, it was a not-so-unlikely scenario where I think "taking out an army" (an implied 2-3 for 1) and blocking the swing for 5 with one card seems like an okay exchange especially when we have lots of spot in the deck.
The thought was that aggro would not exactly enjoy running their creatures into a board wipe and while yes, control can handle it, control can also handle every other creature we run can be handled similarly.
But I hear what you're saying for the record
most of the time earthquake alone gets the job done.
not really possible to get a army of flying creatures.
even if the basilisk collar + phoenix combo is viable I wouldn't play it.
it kills my own creatures to. I prefer SGC + Collar at least you are in control that way
Mind Rot is a terrible, terrible topdeck after you've gotten rid of their hand already. 4x Blightning plus 4x Mind Rot is not a good choice. Trust me. Tone it down to 4x Blightning main deck and fit 2-3 Mind Rots on the side against things like control. Aggro is horrifically prevalent in almost every metagame, and 8 discard spells will lose their power very, very fast.
I feel if you're going to play 2x Day of Judgement and 2x Earthquake, you might be better off with a 4x of one of the two. Or another combination of the two. I want my sweeper to be there when I need it, and that's why I run 3x to 4x Day of Judgement, because then I'll see it more often.
You have problems against too much removal because you run 4x Baneslayer and 4x Persecutor and that's it. You rely on them to win, but you can't keep them on the table. Persecutor is not as good as this community would have you believe, and as a four-of it's pretty terrible. The downside is too easily exploited and any good player will exploit it to no end. Not only that, but it can cost you the game. As to the difficulties, try to fit in some cheaper dudes that are threats (like Vampire Nighthawk).
Fleshbag Marauder is not a good option for SB, I feel. I assume you have it for Sphinx of the Jwar Isle, and that makes sense, but I feel that spot would be better used for something else.
I think the fact that I've been play testing against so many other control decks has to do with why my decks been lead so far in that direction. It seems that everyone and their mother wants to run a jace control.
What if I tone it down to 2 Mind rot and add 1 Terminate (totaling 4) and 1 Banefire (totaling 3)?
Also I know that Nighthawk has strong board presence, but the facts that; I'm still going to have to struggle with the double black mana cost, it's a turn earlier than abyssal, and it is in bolt range doesn't really seem to solve my current problems. It is a good answer to sphinx and can keep me out of tricky situations in which I die to lucky removal draw. Unless I changed to a heavier black build, and tried to thin another color (my first impulse is white), I don't see that being viable.
I'm going to try to write up a heavier black more creature intensive deck list and post here soon.
I appreciate the comments though and it's definitely taking me closer to my final deck list. Keep 'em coming!
Advices? What do you think about that?
I have often problems with mana, one time I need R, one time I need W, one time I need BB; it's very strange... But I don't trust at all of MWS's shuffle, isn't it?
What about matchups?
This is why I have been trying to stray away from cards like Nighthawk and Sign in Blood. The double black isn't really the main factor in it, it's the 2 and 3 converted mana cost that is ALSO double black that makes it difficult to cast. When were talking about 4+ drops, having a 2 of color, in a 3 color deck IS going to happen. If you're expecting 2 black turn 2-3-4 to cast that sequence of cards you are better off going with a heavy black, splashed red, agro/blightning archtype.
Just my two cents.
Good luck with your deck list!
I agree with you on most points here gemone. Max Lion needs less discard and more threats, its an easy swap in my opinion. 3cc Mindrot for Vampire Nighthawk.
On the case of Persecutor, he is good. Max Lion runs 7 spot removals that can kill the persecutor, that's plenty to get the job done. I will agree on the four of though. You'll never want to run two out in play, that's just crazy. I would suggest downing it to a three of and possibly two. On the matter of player's being able to make it a helpful card instead of a threat, I agree. In my experiences though only control has the ability. It is why I have 3 malakir bloodwitches in my sideboard. If counter magic is a problem then persecutor becomes a liability (at least in my opinion).
I didn't see this post earlier, but now that I have:
I will go ahead and play test the nighthawks due to a large majority of people here suggesting it. I feel the double black will be difficult but even when nighthawk hits the board turn 4 onward it's STILL going to be a threat. Plus maybe I can get some removal wasted on it so I can in-turn drop the T4 AP and T5 BSA ftw.
Thank you for your input!
*Edit* (so I don't continue to flood the thread... sorry)
I just made some changes and will be testing this tonight.
I know 2 of isn't reasonable but I only plan on seeing 1 (if that) per game, so I believe it will serve its purpose.
I didn't see this post earlier, but now that I have:
I will go ahead and play test the nighthawks due to a large majority of people here suggesting it. I feel the double black will be difficult but even when nighthawk hits the board turn 4 onward it's STILL going to be a threat. Plus maybe I can get some removal wasted on it so I can in-turn drop the T4 AP and T5 BSA ftw.
Thank you for your input!
*Edit* (so I don't continue to flood the thread... sorry)
I just made some changes and will be testing this tonight.
I know 2 of isn't reasonable but I only plan on seeing 1 (if that) per game, so I believe it will serve its purpose.
Like you said it is intense to get our colour together. But you are making it worse by playing Tectonic Edge Which doesn't come down early because of the 4 lands condition. I would suggest you to play with some of the lists that's here and get a feel and fine tune it to ur style.
One more thing. if you like to play mana intensive spell like sib I would suggest you to go towards the cascade way namely Bitumious Blast.
How's manland treating everyone?!
Lavaclaw Reaches won me more than one game to a 4-1 FNM last night, so I'd say he's pretty decent. Definitely had a 9/2 manland swinging with a Baneslayer in the late games.
Only loss last night was to BloodQuake piloted by a friend, with wins against RDW, mono white soldiers, UBW mill, and Jund piloted by another friend, in that order.
Unfortunately, I was only playing with two Baneslayers due to circumstance, but it wasn't so bad with an extra Bloodwitch on the sideboard to make it a four-of.
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I also know that Jayemdae Tome saw play in some constructed control decks in the past, and I would expect that with fetchlands, Sundial would always be better than Tome. It's no Phyrexian Arena, but repeatable card draw IS a good thing for control decks. I would envision playing the Sundial late game (turn 7+), then at some point you drop a fetch, pay 2 and draw, then on their EOT, activate fetch, pay 2 more, and draw another card. Between those 2 and the 1 for your next turn, you'll probably pick up another land to be able to do it again.
In theory, I think it would be a decent card so I'm just trying to get someone to try it out since it will be awhile before I can finish this type of deck. (missing several commons/uncommons and vengeant)
Regarding the 4 mana slot being full, that's just the price to pay when it comes to looking at new cards. Old ones might need to come out. I'd just like to see someone try it and give it a good thumbs up or down.
WoR been working pretty well for me.
the life gain is really relevent and it is a threat they have to removal if they want to get some damage through.
personally firewalker is sb material...and a mana intensive sb material
you only got 15 slots in your deck so think wisely
my speculation is that the odds is going to be bad.
conditional drawing that doesn't pay out so good and almost all of your 4 drops are irreplaceable. coming down t4 it does no impact to the board and I believe there are better turn 6 plays.
and in Theory it would play out nicely but given that you have fetch land to crack late game I think I'll at least use up like 3 fetches on avg by turn 6. which really gives me the doubt of testing that card.
My speculation is that my build isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and I believe my build has a good balance against both control and aggro. and very limited completely dead cards (just the 4 terminates) when it comes to shroud creatures.
As for now the part I really have to work on is the sb choices.
Magic the Gathering - Planeswalker Analysis
Mahalo - Magic the Gathering Page
baneslayer and what else?
Magic the Gathering - Planeswalker Analysis
Mahalo - Magic the Gathering Page
how does any of those except for emeria angel "fly" through WoR or WoD?
you do run bolt and earthquake for a reason. and Bolt/terminate deals with emeria
Magic the Gathering - Planeswalker Analysis
Mahalo - Magic the Gathering Page
They are saying that Malakir Bloodwitch can fly through and opponent's WoR or WoD. Go go pro-white.
EDIT: I agree with this suggestion. At least SB worthy.
I think I might try switching to Earthquake over BitBlast. It seems like mono colored decks are going to be more prevalent now and quake is a good sweeper and another wincon like WaterBleu said.
Unfortunately, I won't have much WWK to use, but that's okay because we are still discussing and testing what should/should not be added to the deck.
Does anyone think Searing Blaze should be tested as well? Like firewalker could be too mana intensive.
I think putting in Searing Blaze may really screw with our mana base. Right now, the deck can pretty much work off of one red source ( Except those with SGC ).
This is what I came up with. Any ideas or suggestions?
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Mountain
6 Plains
4 Swamp
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 Baneslayer Angel
4 Abyssal Persecutor
Disruption
2 Mind Rot
4 Blightning
Burn/Removal
4 Terminate
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Earthquake
2 Day of Judgment
Friggin' Ajani
3 Ajani Vengeant
Recurrence
2 Marshal's Anthem
SB would probably include Luminarch Ascension for control MU as well as Thought Hemorrhage and Malakir Bloodwitch. Rest would most likely be meta specific.
We don't really get any good stuff from WWK or as much as I hope we would get. Basilisk Collar was a card I wasn't tempted to test to begin with. but it proves to be less of a dead cards when it comes to shroud creatures. With decent amount of creature/token generation it should be awesome.
I'll go through the card choice detail in OP sometimes soon.
I strongly encourage people to give my list a try ^__^
Magic the Gathering - Planeswalker Analysis
Mahalo - Magic the Gathering Page
I don't run her because BSA and lilana are my 5cc, she's been sitting in my sideboard as a 3 of.
On turn turn 9 (10 if you want her to stay around), sorry but between turn three and nine I foresee playing a sweeper. Two toughness creatures do not work well with our deck. The only way they live is if its a 1 damage earthquake.
personally i'm not running her because everything she stops dies to terminate, nighthawk, or even DoJ anyway and the top of the curve stops with baneslayers. maybe if a mono white deck becomes prevalent i might consider a couple bloodwitchs to complement my baneslayers, 2 witch 3 slayer main the rest in the side, but for now its unnecessary
as for the sundial i agree with waterbleu. its just not efficient enough for this deck. everything in here is highly efficient and does something immediately when it hits the board but the sundial would sit around until you got a land and had extra mana so you could afford to use it. sure its got some nice synergy with grim discovery but even that is not enough for me to go out of my way to try it out. i would have to find slots for it and i haven't been able to find a place for sign in blood yet so there's no chance of that.
i would like a couple signs though so if anyone has any ideas let me know, my build is a page back i think
@waterbleu- how are the martial coup working out for you? i'm curious as to how they would play out in this deck but will probably stick with DoJ because i can wrath the board 3 turns earlier with it
Standard
BRZombiesRB
Commander
RWBOros, the AvengerBWR
I don't have much problem with your build.
Other than it is really more aggro than control *looks at bloodghast*
and I think you sb need some rework
I haven't run into situation where I need a t4 wrath (usually earthquake would do the trick)
I normally keep the board relatively clean. the martial coup is really just a turn around card
Magic the Gathering - Planeswalker Analysis
Mahalo - Magic the Gathering Page
4 Baneslayer Angel
4 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Day of Judgement
2 Earthquake
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
4 Blightning
4 Mindrot
3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Plains
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Celestial Purge
3 Thought Hemmorage
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Fleshbag Maurader
1 Day of Judgement
1 Earthquake
Against too much removal I'm having trouble.
Mind Rot is a terrible, terrible topdeck after you've gotten rid of their hand already. 4x Blightning plus 4x Mind Rot is not a good choice. Trust me. Tone it down to 4x Blightning main deck and fit 2-3 Mind Rots on the side against things like control. Aggro is horrifically prevalent in almost every metagame, and 8 discard spells will lose their power very, very fast.
I feel if you're going to play 2x Day of Judgement and 2x Earthquake, you might be better off with a 4x of one of the two. Or another combination of the two. I want my sweeper to be there when I need it, and that's why I run 3x to 4x Day of Judgement, because then I'll see it more often.
You have problems against too much removal because you run 4x Baneslayer and 4x Persecutor and that's it. You rely on them to win, but you can't keep them on the table. Persecutor is not as good as this community would have you believe, and as a four-of it's pretty terrible. The downside is too easily exploited and any good player will exploit it to no end. Not only that, but it can cost you the game. As to the difficulties, try to fit in some cheaper dudes that are threats (like Vampire Nighthawk).
Fleshbag Marauder is not a good option for SB, I feel. I assume you have it for Sphinx of the Jwar Isle, and that makes sense, but I feel that spot would be better used for something else.
"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded."
In Memory of Dr. Jeebus. Banned, but not forgotten.
4 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Akoum Refuge
2 Dragonskull Summit
5 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Mountain
creatures
2 Baneslayer Sngel
4 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Wall of Reverence
2 Seige-Gang Commander
3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Blightning
4 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Earthquake
3 Sign in Blood
1 Martial Coup
1 Comet Storm
2 Thought Hemorrhage
3 Celestial Purge
3 Luminarch Ascension
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
4 ???
This is my change to Earthquake over BitBlast. I'm going to try out WoR, but I only have one, same with manland, otherwise would probably be two. Added Sign in Blood for more draw and possibly damage FTW. Comet Storm was just a throw in, but also considering 1x Rise from the Grave. It could be useful considering we play Blightning or we just get our own BSA/SGC back. Last card I was thinking about was Harm's Way. Nice damage fodder that could save your planeswalkers, save nighthawk from being lightning bolted, and even redirect 2 of your earthquake damage to your opponent instead.
Cases against might be that it adds to the five hole while bumping up the necessary red needed to run the deck and path can take it out with little reward in return though the latter could be said about any shroudless creature. I'm not necessarily an advocate of the guy, but he does seem to have a decent amount of pros to balance out manageable cons IMO.
And if, by some miracle Basilisk Collar becomes playable, it's the perfect creature for it.
Edit: I also like it more than SGC for that slot as it'd be less mana intensive to get the damage effects, doesn't get in the way of your own earthquake and in the case of creature-heavy decks that run Baneslayer (ie naya/rock) baneslayer's first strike works against it in the case of swinging into it as she'd potentially set her army to be wiped before they could deal damage.
I agree with you on most points here gemone. Max Lion needs less discard and more threats, its an easy swap in my opinion. 3cc Mindrot for Vampire Nighthawk.
On the case of Persecutor, he is good. Max Lion runs 7 spot removals that can kill the persecutor, that's plenty to get the job done. I will agree on the four of though. You'll never want to run two out in play, that's just crazy. I would suggest downing it to a three of and possibly two. On the matter of player's being able to make it a helpful card instead of a threat, I agree. In my experiences though only control has the ability. It is why I have 3 malakir bloodwitches in my sideboard. If counter magic is a problem then persecutor becomes a liability (at least in my opinion).
Magma Phoenix is lack-luster, I had tested it in the beginning of this thread's discussion (might want to read through the whole thread). Yes it can kill big nasties, but it isn't a good finisher. If you are dropping something on turn five in this deck it should be able to scare your opponent. The magma phoenix from my testing just doesn't get the job done. He only swings for 3 and he's lightning bolt bait, which makes him a liability. There were points in a couple games where I was scared of my own creature. He can be played around too easily and manipulated to be a boon to your opponent instead of a bane.
Control get rid of him easily and aggro isn't scared of a board sweeper by turn six/five.
Your argument to the phoenix whipping out a naya/rock decks army but not the BSA is mute. If the baneslayer is alive you still loose.
My thought wasn't so much in line with the Phoenix being a finisher as much as a piece of utility and while not specifically against BSA, it was a not-so-unlikely scenario where I think "taking out an army" (an implied 2-3 for 1) and blocking the swing for 5 with one card seems like an okay exchange especially when we have lots of spot in the deck.
The thought was that aggro would not exactly enjoy running their creatures into a board wipe and while yes, control can handle it, control can also handle every other creature we run can be handled similarly.
But I hear what you're saying for the record
most of the time earthquake alone gets the job done.
not really possible to get a army of flying creatures.
even if the basilisk collar + phoenix combo is viable I wouldn't play it.
it kills my own creatures to. I prefer SGC + Collar at least you are in control that way
Magic the Gathering - Planeswalker Analysis
Mahalo - Magic the Gathering Page
I think the fact that I've been play testing against so many other control decks has to do with why my decks been lead so far in that direction. It seems that everyone and their mother wants to run a jace control.
What if I tone it down to 2 Mind rot and add 1 Terminate (totaling 4) and 1 Banefire (totaling 3)?
Also I know that Nighthawk has strong board presence, but the facts that; I'm still going to have to struggle with the double black mana cost, it's a turn earlier than abyssal, and it is in bolt range doesn't really seem to solve my current problems. It is a good answer to sphinx and can keep me out of tricky situations in which I die to lucky removal draw. Unless I changed to a heavier black build, and tried to thin another color (my first impulse is white), I don't see that being viable.
I'm going to try to write up a heavier black more creature intensive deck list and post here soon.
I appreciate the comments though and it's definitely taking me closer to my final deck list. Keep 'em coming!
This is why I have been trying to stray away from cards like Nighthawk and Sign in Blood. The double black isn't really the main factor in it, it's the 2 and 3 converted mana cost that is ALSO double black that makes it difficult to cast. When were talking about 4+ drops, having a 2 of color, in a 3 color deck IS going to happen. If you're expecting 2 black turn 2-3-4 to cast that sequence of cards you are better off going with a heavy black, splashed red, agro/blightning archtype.
Just my two cents.
Good luck with your deck list!
I didn't see this post earlier, but now that I have:
I will go ahead and play test the nighthawks due to a large majority of people here suggesting it. I feel the double black will be difficult but even when nighthawk hits the board turn 4 onward it's STILL going to be a threat. Plus maybe I can get some removal wasted on it so I can in-turn drop the T4 AP and T5 BSA ftw.
Thank you for your input!
*Edit* (so I don't continue to flood the thread... sorry)
I just made some changes and will be testing this tonight.
I know 2 of isn't reasonable but I only plan on seeing 1 (if that) per game, so I believe it will serve its purpose.
RWB Abyssal Wrath
4 Baneslayer Angel
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Earthquake
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
4 Blightning
2 Banefire
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
2 Tectonic Edge
3 Plains
5 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Thought Hemmorage
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Day of Judgement
1 Earthquake
1 Banefire
Like you said it is intense to get our colour together. But you are making it worse by playing Tectonic Edge Which doesn't come down early because of the 4 lands condition. I would suggest you to play with some of the lists that's here and get a feel and fine tune it to ur style.
One more thing. if you like to play mana intensive spell like sib I would suggest you to go towards the cascade way namely Bitumious Blast.
How's manland treating everyone?!
Magic the Gathering - Planeswalker Analysis
Mahalo - Magic the Gathering Page
Only loss last night was to BloodQuake piloted by a friend, with wins against RDW, mono white soldiers, UBW mill, and Jund piloted by another friend, in that order.
Unfortunately, I was only playing with two Baneslayers due to circumstance, but it wasn't so bad with an extra Bloodwitch on the sideboard to make it a four-of.
"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded."
In Memory of Dr. Jeebus. Banned, but not forgotten.