And that combo is two fold. It does give a 3 point sweeper deathtouch but also shores up a key weakness for red. Life. And it does it without going into another color. Good enough reason for me to like the combo. And I remember having a similar argument about bloodfire colossus and loxodon warhammer. Lots of life......
I think running maindeck kor firewalkers will give chain reaction the oomph it needs.
(note: very heavy red meta here. depending on where you play, this may be wrong.)
even so, if I'm not playing against a deck featuring red, I still have some speedbumps, and I'll gain some life off of my own spells. assuming I can get a set of them, I'll try out a list on friday and share what I have learned. I'll be excited to try something in scepter's spot though--with my store moving away from jund, it's a little clunky.
edit: regarding goblin assault--it sounds like something I'd want to test in my sideboard. There are certain matchups where I can see not leaving the speedbumps home a huge liability, but I imagine it would give opposing control fits.
Ok, first of all, Siege-Gang Commander actually is The Messiah. Clearly he martyrs himself for the greater good of this deck, and he even inspires his apostles to do so as well. Ever seen SGC do 8 to someone's face in a board stall? That's like responding to Judas's betrayal by launching catapults loaded with Peter, Paul, John, and Jesus right at the Roman soldiers.
New rough list I am testing out. WWK really helped out the previous build with searing blaze and everflowing chalice. Searing blaze now gives the deck an answer to thrinaxes and bbe's in game 1 and still have card advantage. Before blaze you would have to bolt a thrinax and then try to wrath, or tap one down with ajani. The other great card is the chalice. This deck sorely needed another 2 drop mana fixer and this is the perfect answer. Turn 2 it allows for 3rd turn ajanis and dojs. Late game you can use it for super powered comet storms/banefires. I think these new additions will really push the deck over the top against every midrange deck out there and with the new mana ramp in chalice and searing blaze, the jund matchup is looking excellent also.
Two more cards worth consideration are Roiling Terrain and Dragonmaster Outcast. Both could work wonders in the board. Outcast is the perfect man-plan in the board for this deck because of all the lands always in play and he is not an investment in mana at all. Roiling Terrain I think is great replacement for Ruinblaster. At most ruinblaster gets in 2 and kills a land. This card has tremendous late game potential by running multiples, in addition to just about every deck running 4-10 fetches.
I love this deck and the way it plays because I'm a red player at heart but you can get crushed too easily by hosers (kor firewalker, wall of denial, dragons claw) but with this deck you can overcome all of that and still blast people with damage. Tons of fun.
I think that fetches land (Rampant Growth, Khalni Heart Expedition, Valakut) are better than wait for a Valakut and Mountains. And where is Path to Exile? And the sideboard - Scepter Dominance - for what MU do you sideboarding it? Sorry for break english, but I can't speak very good in english
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New rough list I am testing out. WWK really helped out the previous build with searing blaze and everflowing chalice. Searing blaze now gives the deck an answer to thrinaxes and bbe's in game 1 and still have card advantage. Before blaze you would have to bolt a thrinax and then try to wrath, or tap one down with ajani. The other great card is the chalice. This deck sorely needed another 2 drop mana fixer and this is the perfect answer. Turn 2 it allows for 3rd turn ajanis and dojs. Late game you can use it for super powered comet storms/banefires. I think these new additions will really push the deck over the top against every midrange deck out there and with the new mana ramp in chalice and searing blaze, the jund matchup is looking excellent also.
Two more cards worth consideration are Roiling Terrain and Dragonmaster Outcast. Both could work wonders in the board. Outcast is the perfect man-plan in the board for this deck because of all the lands always in play and he is not an investment in mana at all. Roiling Terrain I think is great replacement for Ruinblaster. At most ruinblaster gets in 2 and kills a land. This card has tremendous late game potential by running multiples, in addition to just about every deck running 4-10 fetches.
I love this deck and the way it plays because I'm a red player at heart but you can get crushed too easily by hosers (kor firewalker, wall of denial, dragons claw) but with this deck you can overcome all of that and still blast people with damage. Tons of fun.
have you tried using siege-gang commander? the guy is amazing. I don't think I could ever cut him.
Ok, first of all, Siege-Gang Commander actually is The Messiah. Clearly he martyrs himself for the greater good of this deck, and he even inspires his apostles to do so as well. Ever seen SGC do 8 to someone's face in a board stall? That's like responding to Judas's betrayal by launching catapults loaded with Peter, Paul, John, and Jesus right at the Roman soldiers.
I think running maindeck kor firewalkers will give chain reaction the oomph it needs.
(note: very heavy red meta here. depending on where you play, this may be wrong.)
even so, if I'm not playing against a deck featuring red, I still have some speedbumps, and I'll gain some life off of my own spells. assuming I can get a set of them, I'll try out a list on friday and share what I have learned. I'll be excited to try something in scepter's spot though--with my store moving away from jund, it's a little clunky.
I agree with your first point here, and for the same reason disagree with the end of your second paragraph--it's really NOT CLUNKY against RDW. So if your meta is moving away from jund and is very heavy red, decks like Boros and RDW are where you want your strenth. Ball lightning->let it resolve and tap it down; it dies EOT. Same with Hell's Thunder, Hellspark Elemental, Elemental Appeal, both the Hell suite guys when they unearth.. Just make sure you're only dropping it when you have that extra plains available; that way you wont regret not having a mountain available for a lightning bolt or burst lightning.
I think that fetches land (Rampant Growth, Khalni Heart Expedition, Valakut) are better than wait for a Valakut and Mountains. And where is Path to Exile? And the sideboard - Scepter Dominance - for what MU do you sideboarding it? Sorry for break english, but I can't speak very good in english
I would quick recommend that you read through some of the really good discussion/debate on some of these choices: all of which can be found in the previous 22 pages of this thread or the many many pages of the old (archived) thread. The post on the first page of this thread has a link to the old thread--the first post there has a pluthera of info on the deck that will get you started.
The cliff notes: Path to Exile assists in ramping up Vampire decks to an earlier Mind Sludge that just owns us. Other spot removal (damage) should be chosen in game one if the speed is necessary, otherwise that's the purpose of the mass sweepers (Day of Judgement, Earthquake, or in some builds, Martial Coup. After board Celestial Purge can be sided in to deal with Unearth guys, Bloodghast, or whomever you'd really rather get exiled rather than put into the graveyard.
The valakut engine should only be responsible for maybe 6 damage before the end of the game. before that you should have a Chandra Nalaar go off, some Direct Damage to the dome, even if only a little. (note this may happen near or at the same time that Valakut comes online) Earthquake or possibly banefire, depending on board positioning and your lifetotal (and whether you can fit banefire in your main deck or not), getting atleast some damage in. And the little bit of miscellaneous damage adds up too: Chandra getting to her ultimate may have done (2+), or Searing Blaze (1-3), their fetches (0-4), Ajani Venjeant using his Lightning Helix ability (3-12..), you get the picture.
Constantly removing threats or tapping down their resources gives you the opportunity to take cracks at them mid-game that equate to an awesome endgame. By the time you are ready for Mountains to come down for the Valakut, assuming you haven't already won, almost anything in your deck is "business" as I-Never-Smile likes to say. Even your blockers (Siege-Gang Commander and his tokens can do damage to their face.
Valakut Control (RW Valakut) is definitely slower than Valakut Ramp (GR Valakut), but it doesn't have the suceptibility to single card Valakut Hate. One Sadistic Sacrament or Oblivion Ring and Ramp is getting hurt badly. The idea with the Valakut Control is not to race like it is with Ramp--it's to play control, then Direct Damage to the face with most of the deck assisting.
If you're running white, you gotta have Day of Judgment.
Calcite Snapper is going to see alot of play and I'd hate to be smacked with that turtle for 4 and have no way to deal with it. Same goes for Sphinx.
I think in this type of control deck using Everflowing Chalice is going to increase the decks effectiveness. Many of our best spells are in the 4-5 cmc range and getting there sooner would be awesome since our first couple of turns are generally comprised of some burns. Turn 3 Ajani helix, hot, turn 4 Chandra to take down an early Baneslayer, hotter. The Chalice is going to help out with activated eot Spheres, Panorama activations, easier kicked Burst Lightnings, Siegegang sacks and bumped up EQs or Banefires.
Since the deck is so land based I was thinking of Seer's Sundial. Also Everflowing Chalice.
The Chalice allows for our big spells like Day Of, Chandra, etc to come out a turn sooner. They'd also help with mana for the Sundial.
I couldn't imagine what to take out for them. Thoughts ideas?
I still don't see how to fit them in. I also am having difficulty imagining what the best plays are in the early turns to be able to maximize burn opportunities as well as the early mana ramp. This was a primary issue I saw with Searing blaze (which I still think belongs in this deck)--where can you use this guy? t1 mountain, t2 arid mesa, then on their turn crack the arid mesa for a mountain and blast away a creature and do 3 to their dome: this seems really good--having 2 mountains after turn 2 doesn't help getting a third land or mana excellerator for turn 3, and it delays the sceptor and doj unless you can get 2 plains in play in the next two turns (after already having used an arid mesa, one of the options to get a plains). Now throw the Chalice into the mix.
What do turns 1-4 look like against most matchups? Consider with or without Searing Blaze, with or without Everflowing Chalice, with or without Sceptor of Dominance. I think the Blaze is probably just a good mid-game card that is deceptive in it's flirtation with being used real early. The Chalice is attractive to use turn 2, still leaving potentially a red source available for burn (the chalice being that source).
I think we badly need some testing with these new toys :-P
@Caudates: In response to your last post, and the previous one on the Everflowing Chalice:
I still don't see how to fit them in. I also am having difficulty imagining what the best plays are in the early turns to be able to maximize burn opportunities as well as the early mana ramp. This was a primary issue I saw with Searing blaze (which I still think belongs in this deck)--where can you use this guy? t1 mountain, t2 arid mesa, then on their turn crack the arid mesa for a mountain and blast away a creature and do 3 to their dome: this seems really good--having 2 mountains after turn 2 doesn't help getting a third land or mana excellerator for turn 3, and it delays the sceptor and doj unless you can get 2 plains in play in the next two turns (after already having used an arid mesa, one of the options to get a plains). Now throw the Chalice into the mix.
What do turns 1-4 look like against most matchups? Consider with or without Searing Blaze, with or without Everflowing Chalice, with or without Sceptor of Dominance. I think the Blaze is probably just a good mid-game card that is deceptive in it's flirtation with being used real early. The Chalice is attractive to use turn 2, still leaving potentially a red source available for burn (the chalice being that source).
I think we badly need some testing with these new toys :-P
Yeah I agree with the issues with Searing Blaze too. I also like to sit on fetches and not use them if I don't have to so I can make valakut activations more powerful if let's say I need 2 to hit a baneslayer (and soon Abyssal Persecutor). But if you do get searing blaze off, man is it sexy. 3 to a creature 3 to the face in one card? Awesome. Would a midgame Searing blaze be any good? Your opponents creatures will most likely be fat and the burn is gonna be 3 to the dome? Needs more testing.
Dedicating turn two to a ramp will leave you less options to respond to what the opponent drops but it would seem like getting Chandra or Siegegang out a turn sooner would minimize those deficits. Of course, right now this is all armchair conjecture and I haven't really had time to test it.
As I think about the potential of Everflowing Chalice, I am more and more encouraged to both give it a spot and to keep Obelisk of Alara in my Sideboard for all the new Vampire build I expect to be seeing. In the past the Obelisk has just been game over once it hits the table in that matchup. They can't outrace the cheap 5 lifegain per turn while still dealing with Ajani, or the 6 damage per turn without using any other burn.. Regardless of the situation all of a sudden the game is out of hand. Even siding out a Scepter of dominance for the Obelisk would seem fine.
I big issue I had found with previous incarnations of the deck is its inability to generate card quantity advantage (i.e. actually drawing cards). Previously, Armillary Sphere was it. Worldwake brought a tool that deserves a serious look: Seer's Sundial. Turning each Fetch and post-Valakut bolt into a cantrip seems pretty sexy. I think this may be the deck poised to abuse the artifact.
Ruin Ghost might also be interesting, though it seems techy and counterintuitive with all the sweepers run here.
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Everflowing Chalice seems solid. I would hate to lsot its counters to a Hexmage, but that's one more Planeswalker I end up saving.
Searing Blaze seems like a trap to me. I'd rather have Lightning Bolt in hand almost every time. It's very difficult to reliably do 3 damage to a creature on the opponent's turn.
I think the true gem for us is the Kor Firewalker and that's the first guy I want to begin testing with. He blocks both Jund creatures that give us fits and they HAVE to Pulse it.
I agree with your first point here, and for the same reason disagree with the end of your second paragraph--it's really NOT CLUNKY against RDW. So if your meta is moving away from jund and is very heavy red, decks like Boros and RDW are where you want your strenth. Ball lightning->let it resolve and tap it down; it dies EOT. Same with Hell's Thunder, Hellspark Elemental, Elemental Appeal, both the Hell suite guys when they unearth.. Just make sure you're only dropping it when you have that extra plains available; that way you wont regret not having a mountain available for a lightning bolt or burst lightning.
g3ngr3g, I have been finding in said heavy rdw meta that the scepter is too clunky because it's never online until like turn five.
rule number one I use when playing RDW: never tap out. if I represent bolt/burst, then I have a chance to not get hit with that ball lightning, even if I don't have the bolt. so, the very very best case scenario for active scepter is T1 mtn, T2 plains, T3 plains, T4 plains, scepter with white up. Frequently, I'm dead.
of course, if they don't get there and I've done the ajani thing a time or two, then I whole-heartedly agree, scepter is definitely crushing. but I don't always live till then.
(bear in mind, I run three plains, and four arid mesa. have spheres of course, but they are also slow.)
if I had kor firewalker in hand, I would not be disappointed in tapping out to cast it turn two if I had the means. if they ball lightning then, I just take three, and maintain a card on the table.
so in closing, scepter is pretty nice, but against RDW it's not better than kor firewalker, and since kor firewalker doubles as a "scepter" against sprouting thrinax, I'll give it a go. We will see what happens this weekend
Ok, first of all, Siege-Gang Commander actually is The Messiah. Clearly he martyrs himself for the greater good of this deck, and he even inspires his apostles to do so as well. Ever seen SGC do 8 to someone's face in a board stall? That's like responding to Judas's betrayal by launching catapults loaded with Peter, Paul, John, and Jesus right at the Roman soldiers.
Here are reasons for my selections.
Cutting siege-gang: this guy is amazing some of the time and most of the time he gets bolted/terminated/any other form of removal. You have to understand this deck has NO creatures which means by turn 5 your opponent WILL have a removal spell for him most of the time at instant speed. In my opinion this deck can do much better things with its mana at that stage of the game than paying 5 mana for 3 1/1's and making your opponents removal live again.
As for path to exile not being in the 75, is that there is no good time to cast it without it being a huge detriment to your gameplan. Early game you have burn for creatures and late game you build up to chandra and comet storm to kill anything larger PLUS you have 4 day of judgement to fall back on. How much more creature removal do you need?
Through all my testing and playing in tournaments with the deck is that the main weaknesses are counterspells and discard. Therefore my sideboard needs to cater to those matchups. Ricochet trap has been a godsend to combat those maindeck flashfreezes and negates on your early chandra/ajani. Roiling Terrain will be the land destruction of choice vs jund and I think kor firewalker will soften the matchup quite a bit allowing for my ajanis and chandras to not have to worry about as many pulses flying around and soaking up their lone attackers.
As it stands right now I feel the match ups are as follows
(%'s are win %'s)
jund 50% (still need more testing of sideboard hate)
rdw 80% (you have just as much burn, inevitability and life gain)
boros 80% (similiar to rdw, you have burn for all smaller creatures and inevitability)
grixis 40% (tough match considering they have both discard and counters)
junk/ww tokens/eldrazi 90% (again so much burn and wraths just destroy)
vampires 85% (they dont stand much of a chance unless they land really good mind sludge otherwise you can maintain)
I'm willing to listen to any feedback out there so don't take this post as 100% word of truth, its just my personal opinions on the deck.
Yes, Siege-gang can get terminated. The 3 1/1's can block. If gang eats a bolt. You saved 3 life, pathed? great!, really the only removal it takes that doesn't benefit you is terminate which they wasted mana on.
Siege-gang isn't meant to be a beater in this deck, it's meant to be a way to stall the board.
I am still failing to understand why we'd want to splash white, let alone double white. Do you actually trigger Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle more than maybe once or twice in a game after getting double white out? It just strikes me as greedy...
I've said before, but I'll restate - I think you guys who are splashing into white need to test Chain Reaction as a wrath effect. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. It has the same effect as wrath; if they know you're playing it, they won't commit more than 1 or 2 threats to the board, and that works very well in our favor since we mostly want to trade 1 for 1 until we get our Valakut engine online. If they actually do commit to the board, punish them with Chain Reaction - worst case you will 2 for 3+ them as you bolt something to finish it.
I'm intrigued at the transformational sideboard strategy... maybe looking at something like...
Following the rough "change into RDW" plan of:
-4 Everflowing Chalice
-4 Armillary Sphere
-1 Mountain
-3 Chain Reaction
Do we want Hell's Thunder over Ball Lightning? How do we feel about Elemental Appeal?
I think we need a clearer sense of where our prospective problem matchups lie to consider response-oriented sideboard plans. Obviously we have to account for Kor Firewalker...
Cutting siege-gang: this guy is amazing some of the time and most of the time he gets bolted/terminated/any other form of removal. You have to understand this deck has NO creatures which means by turn 5 your opponent WILL have a removal spell for him most of the time at instant speed. In my opinion this deck can do much better things with its mana at that stage of the game than paying 5 mana for 3 1/1's and making your opponents removal live again.
let me see if I can concisely show why SGC is the truth in this deck by showing the potential reactions to them hitting the table:
1.) They bolt/burst the Commander. You're down a card, they're down a card. You have three goblin tokens, and three/two(four) more life. Winner? You.
2.) They path the Commander. Maybe your opponent hasn't seen what your deck does yet (this is frequent.) Maybe your opponent knows what's going on but you represent a lethal untap and they have no other answer. Maybe your opponent is not smart (sometimes happens too.) You're both down a card, you have three tokens, and another Mountain for your Valakuts. Supreme champion? You!
3.) They have a whole bunch of beaters on the board. Suddenly, you've got four blockers. Sometimes, these blockers may not be relevant (they don't block so well against RDW). Sometimes, these blockers are amazing (some guys in bushwhacker straight trade for these). These give you the time to get your late-game inevitability online. If you untap against bushwhacker, these will roast almost anything in their deck. It's like an almost practically guaranteed two or three-for-one.
4.) They have a Sphinx of Jwar Isle on the board. This is frequently frowns town for you, as it's wrath or bust. Unless, of course, you drop a timely SGC! So what does that mean? Let's say he drops his sphinx, then you drop your SGC afterwards. Let's assume you've dealt him no damage (if he's america control, for instance, it's unlikely he's dealt any to you, either, so we'll call it 20-20 at this point, ignoring fetches on both sides). Hell, I'll even give him a wall of denial to block the commander with, letting just the tokens get in there.
He swings you to 15, you counterswing him to 17. Sphinx puts you to 10, you swing him to 14, then you're at 5, and you swing him to 11.
He's at eleven life, and you're at 5. Are you going to die? Why no, no you're not, as you have eight damage worth of walking golbliny goodness ready to sacrifice for the greater good. So now your opponent is at three? This of course does not include that there are actually fetchland activations on his side, your planeswalkers, Valakut activations perhaps by this point, and a deck with eight burn to the faces.
Long story short, no SGC, no racing the control deck's best finisher.
5.) They pulse the tokens. Still got a chump, and they definitely did not just pulse your planeswalker/scepter/kor firewalker/obelisk if you run it. (The other side of the argument is that they did pulse your better thing to pulse, so now they can't pulse your dudes, and you have dudes!)
6.) They wrath. They one-for-oned with wrath. That's not too special. Especially if they'd rather keep any of their creatures, because you're sure not running any! If they keep wrath in their deck post-sideboard, added plus!
And of course, the best scenario:
7.) You've been controlling the board all game, you play SCG, they have no answer, you untap and kill them. Hooray!
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Hopefully I've made my point as to why I think SGC is amazing and should definitely be a four-of in this deck in either its mono R or RW forms!
EDIT (new reply guy):
I am still failing to understand why we'd want to splash white, let alone double white. Do you actually trigger Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle more than maybe once or twice in a game after getting double white out? It just strikes me as greedy...
I've said before, but I'll restate - I think you guys who are splashing into white need to test Chain Reaction as a wrath effect. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. It has the same effect as wrath; if they know you're playing it, they won't commit more than 1 or 2 threats to the board, and that works very well in our favor since we mostly want to trade 1 for 1 until we get our Valakut engine online. If they actually do commit to the board, punish them with Chain Reaction - worst case you will 2 for 3+ them as you bolt something to finish it.
I've had RW together in various forms for about three weeks now. Right now, it's 4 day of judgement, 3 scepter of dominance, 3 ajani vengeant and 1 obelisk of alara for "things that use white" (SSE and purges in board, but these usually come in when wraths go out) and three plains, four arid mesa, three naya panorama, and four spheres for "white mana getting".
I occasionally screw on white, but it's rare. It slows down valakut's onlineness a bit, but wrath and particularly ajani v will keep you alive to get there. Some people are going to be testing out mono or mostly mono R versions now that WWK has given some new tools.
I will be trying Chain Reaction for earthquakes and Firewalkers for scepters this week. I'd love to try and fit Searing Blaze but I'm not sure I can. Chalice, maybe for mono-red. First few turns I need the colors (in R/W).
I don't like the transformational sideboard as much as some do, but it is a way to not randomly lose to combo decks like the runeflare trap deck or the unearth crypt deck. Not good, of course, but at least you won't roll over.
In any case, I'd never side out armillary sphere to do it. That's like cutting your mulldrifters!
Ok, first of all, Siege-Gang Commander actually is The Messiah. Clearly he martyrs himself for the greater good of this deck, and he even inspires his apostles to do so as well. Ever seen SGC do 8 to someone's face in a board stall? That's like responding to Judas's betrayal by launching catapults loaded with Peter, Paul, John, and Jesus right at the Roman soldiers.
I am still failing to understand why we'd want to splash white, let alone double white. Do you actually trigger Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle more than maybe once or twice in a game after getting double white out? It just strikes me as greedy...
Maybe you havn't actually played with white in the deck and are theorising. Maybe you havn't read the 2 entire threads devoted to RW Valakut control, and so can't comprehend what it does for you. Maybe you think you dont need ajani, scepter, firewalker/SSE, purges. Maybe it is a control deck, and as such it can easily get well past turn 10 consistently. The games it doesnt is where they kill you too fast for you to stablise (read: boros, vamps - both which die to ajani/purge, or RDW, which you only need a scepter and a SSE to entirely wreck - no need for burns to stabilise, they are a bonus, along with purges). Jund? scepter and purge.
Also, theres the fact that if a deck sees you playing nothing but red, they know its a burn deck, and they can formulate a strategy to get around that. not as many people know how to play effectively against a RW control deck (a small advantage, granted, but still an advantage)
And if you really think that red has as good a wrath as DoJ, then what about how long it takes to get effective? say they have 2 creatures on the board. are you going to red-wrath for 2? what if one is a firewalker? (which against a mono-red deck will certainly be brought in from SB) how do you get rid of him? how about SotJI? your going to need 5 creatured on the board to get rid of him, and since control decks play him, thats going to be a strech, unless you sacrifice all you goblin tokens.
Do you actually trigger Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle more than maybe once or twice in a game after getting double white out?
No, you obviously havn't played it
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i-never-smile Ok, first of all, Siege-Gang Commander actually is The Messiah. Clearly he martyrs himself for the greater good of this deck, and he even inspires his apostles to do so as well. Ever seen SGC do 8 to someone's face in a board stall? That's like responding to Judas's betrayal by launching catapults loaded with Peter, Paul, John, and Jesus right at the Roman soldiers.
I think this is so true and absolutely hilarious. I'm shamelessly stealing this verbatim and instead o typing a big huge long long reply as to why SGC is good, I'm just going to use this instead.
Ok, first of all, Siege-Gang Commander actually is The Messiah. Clearly he martyrs himself for the greater good of this deck, and he even inspires his apostles to do so as well. Ever seen SGC do 8 to someone's face in a board stall? That's like responding to Judas's betrayal by launching catapults loaded with Peter, Paul, John, and Jesus right at the Roman soldiers.
alright i'm beginning to understand what you guys are saying with sgc. i guess its harder to understand value in the long run without more consistent testing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by i-never-smile Ok, first of all, Siege-Gang Commander actually is The Messiah. Clearly he martyrs himself for the greater good of this deck, and he even inspires his apostles to do so as well. Ever seen SGC do 8 to someone's face in a board stall? That's like responding to Judas's betrayal by launching catapults loaded with Peter, Paul, John, and Jesus right at the Roman soldiers.
I think this is so true and absolutely hilarious. I'm shamelessly stealing this verbatim and instead o typing a big huge long long reply as to why SGC is good, I'm just going to use this instead.
(insert like five rofl smileys here!)
You know, I should really sig this. Feel free to steal it, so long as you don't lie and say you made it up!
For the record, I stopped playing Valakut Control because I swore an oath to play only decks with Islands for eternity. But I think there's a lot of potential here, if you're willing to test tons of new options from WWK in this deck. I would run the new Horn of Greed for sure, and I probably would play Everflowing Chalice because the deck was always based in 4-5 drops and accel is worth running IMHO.
all credit will be given properly =p I've been playing with SGC in various decks for what seems like over a year now and I couldn't agree more with what it does.
I'm going to try kor firewalkers main over scepters, and perhaps chain reactions instead of earthquakes (though I may waffle out on that one, I like how EQ can hit opponent planeswalkers).
chalice I would be more enamored of if I wasn't trying firewalkers instead of scepters. I wish it made colors, but bad mind stone is still mind stone.
sundial thing seems a bit expensive for what it does, even if I know I'm reliably hitting landfall. I may try it out, but I'd just not know what to cut.
Same with Searing Blaze.
GAH I NEED TO GO TO BED -- I will post a decklist and inspire discussion tomorrow, if you can cheat on Jace for a little while =p
Ok, first of all, Siege-Gang Commander actually is The Messiah. Clearly he martyrs himself for the greater good of this deck, and he even inspires his apostles to do so as well. Ever seen SGC do 8 to someone's face in a board stall? That's like responding to Judas's betrayal by launching catapults loaded with Peter, Paul, John, and Jesus right at the Roman soldiers.
alright i'm beginning to understand what you guys are saying with sgc. i guess its harder to understand value in the long run without more consistent testing.
I think it would be better understood if you realized just how crazy Siege-gang Commander is for us red players. Honestly, I feel that red is unique among all of the colors in Magic simply because it doesn't get many ways of gaining card advantage. And it relies heavily on quality cards that have an extra impact when they're being casted. White lifegains/prevents, blue draws/counters, green ramps/beats, black kills/discards, and then you have us... we do damage. Well I guess we can destroy land too, heh.
I'm pretty new on these forums, but I've been in and out of Magic for the past 15 years. I've played every color, and I really feel that every color out there pretty much has an agenda, with the exception of red. We have spells in our hands and we have to make many, many decisions on what we're going to do with it. I imagine any blue control players know this feeling.
You will not see the words, "Target creature or player," nearly as often on any other cards than red cards.
But anyways, I feel cards like Siege-gang Commander gives us more opportunities for outs when we do make play errors. Not to mention that it also reminds me of my favorite red creature of all time, the almighty Arc-Slogger. When I untap with Siege-gang Commander still in play, it's like a huge sigh of relief and peace. It gives me confidence and it makes me feel like I'm going to win. It gives me hope! Heh.
Anyways, I'm just the type of player that usually opts on the side of when I lose, it was my fault, and not about how lucky someone got against me. That's just how I compete.
But hey, I could be wrong.
NINJA EDIT: By the way, is there been much of a discussion about Searing Blaze? At first, I loved this card as I thought of it as the mono red Blightning, but now I'm not so sure. I would hate to be sitting with it in my hand after I've spot removed all early game stuff, and draw it late game with nothing on the table, especially if I'm running Earthquake and co.
(note: very heavy red meta here. depending on where you play, this may be wrong.)
even so, if I'm not playing against a deck featuring red, I still have some speedbumps, and I'll gain some life off of my own spells. assuming I can get a set of them, I'll try out a list on friday and share what I have learned. I'll be excited to try something in scepter's spot though--with my store moving away from jund, it's a little clunky.
edit: regarding goblin assault--it sounds like something I'd want to test in my sideboard. There are certain matchups where I can see not leaving the speedbumps home a huge liability, but I imagine it would give opposing control fits.
4x arid mesa
2x naya panorama
4x plains
4x valakut
12x mountains
artifacts:
4x Everflowing Chalice
4x Armillary Sphere
4x Chandra Naalar
3x Ajani Vengeant
Instants:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Burst Lightning
4x Searing Blaze
3x Comet Storm
4x Day of Judgment
4x Ricochet Trap
3x Banefire
4x Scepter of Dominance
4x Kor Firewalker
New rough list I am testing out. WWK really helped out the previous build with searing blaze and everflowing chalice. Searing blaze now gives the deck an answer to thrinaxes and bbe's in game 1 and still have card advantage. Before blaze you would have to bolt a thrinax and then try to wrath, or tap one down with ajani. The other great card is the chalice. This deck sorely needed another 2 drop mana fixer and this is the perfect answer. Turn 2 it allows for 3rd turn ajanis and dojs. Late game you can use it for super powered comet storms/banefires. I think these new additions will really push the deck over the top against every midrange deck out there and with the new mana ramp in chalice and searing blaze, the jund matchup is looking excellent also.
Two more cards worth consideration are Roiling Terrain and Dragonmaster Outcast. Both could work wonders in the board. Outcast is the perfect man-plan in the board for this deck because of all the lands always in play and he is not an investment in mana at all. Roiling Terrain I think is great replacement for Ruinblaster. At most ruinblaster gets in 2 and kills a land. This card has tremendous late game potential by running multiples, in addition to just about every deck running 4-10 fetches.
I love this deck and the way it plays because I'm a red player at heart but you can get crushed too easily by hosers (kor firewalker, wall of denial, dragons claw) but with this deck you can overcome all of that and still blast people with damage. Tons of fun.
have you tried using siege-gang commander? the guy is amazing. I don't think I could ever cut him.
11 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
3 Naya Panorama
3 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Plains
4 Armillary Sphere
Planeswalker
4 Chandra Nalaar
3 Ajani Vengeant
Instant
4 Lightning bolt
4 Searing blaze
4 Burst Lightning
3 Comet Storm
4 Chain Reaction
3 Earthquake
Creatures
4 Siege-Gang Commander
Maybe that with a proper SB could work.
I agree with your first point here, and for the same reason disagree with the end of your second paragraph--it's really NOT CLUNKY against RDW. So if your meta is moving away from jund and is very heavy red, decks like Boros and RDW are where you want your strenth. Ball lightning->let it resolve and tap it down; it dies EOT. Same with Hell's Thunder, Hellspark Elemental, Elemental Appeal, both the Hell suite guys when they unearth.. Just make sure you're only dropping it when you have that extra plains available; that way you wont regret not having a mountain available for a lightning bolt or burst lightning.
I would quick recommend that you read through some of the really good discussion/debate on some of these choices: all of which can be found in the previous 22 pages of this thread or the many many pages of the old (archived) thread. The post on the first page of this thread has a link to the old thread--the first post there has a pluthera of info on the deck that will get you started.
The cliff notes: Path to Exile assists in ramping up Vampire decks to an earlier Mind Sludge that just owns us. Other spot removal (damage) should be chosen in game one if the speed is necessary, otherwise that's the purpose of the mass sweepers (Day of Judgement, Earthquake, or in some builds, Martial Coup. After board Celestial Purge can be sided in to deal with Unearth guys, Bloodghast, or whomever you'd really rather get exiled rather than put into the graveyard.
The valakut engine should only be responsible for maybe 6 damage before the end of the game. before that you should have a Chandra Nalaar go off, some Direct Damage to the dome, even if only a little. (note this may happen near or at the same time that Valakut comes online) Earthquake or possibly banefire, depending on board positioning and your lifetotal (and whether you can fit banefire in your main deck or not), getting atleast some damage in. And the little bit of miscellaneous damage adds up too: Chandra getting to her ultimate may have done (2+), or Searing Blaze (1-3), their fetches (0-4), Ajani Venjeant using his Lightning Helix ability (3-12..), you get the picture.
Constantly removing threats or tapping down their resources gives you the opportunity to take cracks at them mid-game that equate to an awesome endgame. By the time you are ready for Mountains to come down for the Valakut, assuming you haven't already won, almost anything in your deck is "business" as I-Never-Smile likes to say. Even your blockers (Siege-Gang Commander and his tokens can do damage to their face.
Valakut Control (RW Valakut) is definitely slower than Valakut Ramp (GR Valakut), but it doesn't have the suceptibility to single card Valakut Hate. One Sadistic Sacrament or Oblivion Ring and Ramp is getting hurt badly. The idea with the Valakut Control is not to race like it is with Ramp--it's to play control, then Direct Damage to the face with most of the deck assisting.
BMBC VampsB
Calcite Snapper is going to see alot of play and I'd hate to be smacked with that turtle for 4 and have no way to deal with it. Same goes for Sphinx.
I think in this type of control deck using Everflowing Chalice is going to increase the decks effectiveness. Many of our best spells are in the 4-5 cmc range and getting there sooner would be awesome since our first couple of turns are generally comprised of some burns. Turn 3 Ajani helix, hot, turn 4 Chandra to take down an early Baneslayer, hotter. The Chalice is going to help out with activated eot Spheres, Panorama activations, easier kicked Burst Lightnings, Siegegang sacks and bumped up EQs or Banefires.
I still don't see how to fit them in. I also am having difficulty imagining what the best plays are in the early turns to be able to maximize burn opportunities as well as the early mana ramp. This was a primary issue I saw with Searing blaze (which I still think belongs in this deck)--where can you use this guy? t1 mountain, t2 arid mesa, then on their turn crack the arid mesa for a mountain and blast away a creature and do 3 to their dome: this seems really good--having 2 mountains after turn 2 doesn't help getting a third land or mana excellerator for turn 3, and it delays the sceptor and doj unless you can get 2 plains in play in the next two turns (after already having used an arid mesa, one of the options to get a plains). Now throw the Chalice into the mix.
What do turns 1-4 look like against most matchups? Consider with or without Searing Blaze, with or without Everflowing Chalice, with or without Sceptor of Dominance. I think the Blaze is probably just a good mid-game card that is deceptive in it's flirtation with being used real early. The Chalice is attractive to use turn 2, still leaving potentially a red source available for burn (the chalice being that source).
I think we badly need some testing with these new toys :-P
BMBC VampsB
Yeah I agree with the issues with Searing Blaze too. I also like to sit on fetches and not use them if I don't have to so I can make valakut activations more powerful if let's say I need 2 to hit a baneslayer (and soon Abyssal Persecutor). But if you do get searing blaze off, man is it sexy. 3 to a creature 3 to the face in one card? Awesome. Would a midgame Searing blaze be any good? Your opponents creatures will most likely be fat and the burn is gonna be 3 to the dome? Needs more testing.
Dedicating turn two to a ramp will leave you less options to respond to what the opponent drops but it would seem like getting Chandra or Siegegang out a turn sooner would minimize those deficits. Of course, right now this is all armchair conjecture and I haven't really had time to test it.
BMBC VampsB
Ruin Ghost might also be interesting, though it seems techy and counterintuitive with all the sweepers run here.
Searing Blaze seems like a trap to me. I'd rather have Lightning Bolt in hand almost every time. It's very difficult to reliably do 3 damage to a creature on the opponent's turn.
I think the true gem for us is the Kor Firewalker and that's the first guy I want to begin testing with. He blocks both Jund creatures that give us fits and they HAVE to Pulse it.
4 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
12 Mountain
Creatures
4 Obsidian Fireheart
Spells
3 Comet Storm
2 Ricochet Trap
3 Chandra Nalaar
3 Earthquake
3 Chain Reaction
4 Everflowing Chalice
3 Seer's Sundial
4 Armillary Sphere
3 Seismic Strike
4 Searing Blaze
2 Ricochet Trap
4 Roiling Terrain
3 Quenchable Fire
3 Unstable Footing
3 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
I'm looking for suggestions on this, especially the sideboard which I didn't really know what to do with.
Seismic strike is in as another way to deal with Baneslayer, and I'm unsure about searing blaze vs lightning bolt, or if I should just run both.
g3ngr3g, I have been finding in said heavy rdw meta that the scepter is too clunky because it's never online until like turn five.
rule number one I use when playing RDW: never tap out. if I represent bolt/burst, then I have a chance to not get hit with that ball lightning, even if I don't have the bolt. so, the very very best case scenario for active scepter is T1 mtn, T2 plains, T3 plains, T4 plains, scepter with white up. Frequently, I'm dead.
of course, if they don't get there and I've done the ajani thing a time or two, then I whole-heartedly agree, scepter is definitely crushing. but I don't always live till then.
(bear in mind, I run three plains, and four arid mesa. have spheres of course, but they are also slow.)
if I had kor firewalker in hand, I would not be disappointed in tapping out to cast it turn two if I had the means. if they ball lightning then, I just take three, and maintain a card on the table.
so in closing, scepter is pretty nice, but against RDW it's not better than kor firewalker, and since kor firewalker doubles as a "scepter" against sprouting thrinax, I'll give it a go. We will see what happens this weekend
4x arid mesa
2x naya panorama
4x plains
4x valakut
12x mountains
artifacts:
4x Everflowing Chalice
4x Armillary Sphere
4x Chandra Naalar
3x Ajani Vengeant
Instants:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Burst Lightning
4x Searing Blaze
3x Comet Storm
Sorceries:
4x Day of Judgment
4x Ricochet Trap
3x Banefire
4x Roiling Terrain
4x Kor Firewalker
Here are reasons for my selections.
Cutting siege-gang: this guy is amazing some of the time and most of the time he gets bolted/terminated/any other form of removal. You have to understand this deck has NO creatures which means by turn 5 your opponent WILL have a removal spell for him most of the time at instant speed. In my opinion this deck can do much better things with its mana at that stage of the game than paying 5 mana for 3 1/1's and making your opponents removal live again.
As for path to exile not being in the 75, is that there is no good time to cast it without it being a huge detriment to your gameplan. Early game you have burn for creatures and late game you build up to chandra and comet storm to kill anything larger PLUS you have 4 day of judgement to fall back on. How much more creature removal do you need?
Through all my testing and playing in tournaments with the deck is that the main weaknesses are counterspells and discard. Therefore my sideboard needs to cater to those matchups. Ricochet trap has been a godsend to combat those maindeck flashfreezes and negates on your early chandra/ajani. Roiling Terrain will be the land destruction of choice vs jund and I think kor firewalker will soften the matchup quite a bit allowing for my ajanis and chandras to not have to worry about as many pulses flying around and soaking up their lone attackers.
As it stands right now I feel the match ups are as follows
(%'s are win %'s)
jund 50% (still need more testing of sideboard hate)
rdw 80% (you have just as much burn, inevitability and life gain)
boros 80% (similiar to rdw, you have burn for all smaller creatures and inevitability)
grixis 40% (tough match considering they have both discard and counters)
junk/ww tokens/eldrazi 90% (again so much burn and wraths just destroy)
vampires 85% (they dont stand much of a chance unless they land really good mind sludge otherwise you can maintain)
I'm willing to listen to any feedback out there so don't take this post as 100% word of truth, its just my personal opinions on the deck.
Siege-gang isn't meant to be a beater in this deck, it's meant to be a way to stall the board.
I've said before, but I'll restate - I think you guys who are splashing into white need to test Chain Reaction as a wrath effect. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. It has the same effect as wrath; if they know you're playing it, they won't commit more than 1 or 2 threats to the board, and that works very well in our favor since we mostly want to trade 1 for 1 until we get our Valakut engine online. If they actually do commit to the board, punish them with Chain Reaction - worst case you will 2 for 3+ them as you bolt something to finish it.
I'm intrigued at the transformational sideboard strategy... maybe looking at something like...
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Punishing Fire
2 Searing Blaze
3 Earthquake
3 Comet Storm
3 Chain Reaction
3 Chandra Nalaar
4 Armillary Sphere
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
22 Mountain
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Ball Lightning
4 Elemental Appeal
3 Ricochet Trap
Following the rough "change into RDW" plan of:
-4 Everflowing Chalice
-4 Armillary Sphere
-1 Mountain
-3 Chain Reaction
Do we want Hell's Thunder over Ball Lightning? How do we feel about Elemental Appeal?
I think we need a clearer sense of where our prospective problem matchups lie to consider response-oriented sideboard plans. Obviously we have to account for Kor Firewalker...
1.) They bolt/burst the Commander. You're down a card, they're down a card. You have three goblin tokens, and three/two(four) more life. Winner? You.
2.) They path the Commander. Maybe your opponent hasn't seen what your deck does yet (this is frequent.) Maybe your opponent knows what's going on but you represent a lethal untap and they have no other answer. Maybe your opponent is not smart (sometimes happens too.) You're both down a card, you have three tokens, and another Mountain for your Valakuts. Supreme champion? You!
3.) They have a whole bunch of beaters on the board. Suddenly, you've got four blockers. Sometimes, these blockers may not be relevant (they don't block so well against RDW). Sometimes, these blockers are amazing (some guys in bushwhacker straight trade for these). These give you the time to get your late-game inevitability online. If you untap against bushwhacker, these will roast almost anything in their deck. It's like an almost practically guaranteed two or three-for-one.
4.) They have a Sphinx of Jwar Isle on the board. This is frequently frowns town for you, as it's wrath or bust. Unless, of course, you drop a timely SGC! So what does that mean? Let's say he drops his sphinx, then you drop your SGC afterwards. Let's assume you've dealt him no damage (if he's america control, for instance, it's unlikely he's dealt any to you, either, so we'll call it 20-20 at this point, ignoring fetches on both sides). Hell, I'll even give him a wall of denial to block the commander with, letting just the tokens get in there.
He swings you to 15, you counterswing him to 17. Sphinx puts you to 10, you swing him to 14, then you're at 5, and you swing him to 11.
He's at eleven life, and you're at 5. Are you going to die? Why no, no you're not, as you have eight damage worth of walking golbliny goodness ready to sacrifice for the greater good. So now your opponent is at three? This of course does not include that there are actually fetchland activations on his side, your planeswalkers, Valakut activations perhaps by this point, and a deck with eight burn to the faces.
Long story short, no SGC, no racing the control deck's best finisher.
5.) They pulse the tokens. Still got a chump, and they definitely did not just pulse your planeswalker/scepter/kor firewalker/obelisk if you run it. (The other side of the argument is that they did pulse your better thing to pulse, so now they can't pulse your dudes, and you have dudes!)
6.) They wrath. They one-for-oned with wrath. That's not too special. Especially if they'd rather keep any of their creatures, because you're sure not running any! If they keep wrath in their deck post-sideboard, added plus!
And of course, the best scenario:
7.) You've been controlling the board all game, you play SCG, they have no answer, you untap and kill them. Hooray!
----------
Hopefully I've made my point as to why I think SGC is amazing and should definitely be a four-of in this deck in either its mono R or RW forms!
EDIT (new reply guy):
I've had RW together in various forms for about three weeks now. Right now, it's 4 day of judgement, 3 scepter of dominance, 3 ajani vengeant and 1 obelisk of alara for "things that use white" (SSE and purges in board, but these usually come in when wraths go out) and three plains, four arid mesa, three naya panorama, and four spheres for "white mana getting".
I occasionally screw on white, but it's rare. It slows down valakut's onlineness a bit, but wrath and particularly ajani v will keep you alive to get there. Some people are going to be testing out mono or mostly mono R versions now that WWK has given some new tools.
I will be trying Chain Reaction for earthquakes and Firewalkers for scepters this week. I'd love to try and fit Searing Blaze but I'm not sure I can. Chalice, maybe for mono-red. First few turns I need the colors (in R/W).
I don't like the transformational sideboard as much as some do, but it is a way to not randomly lose to combo decks like the runeflare trap deck or the unearth crypt deck. Not good, of course, but at least you won't roll over.
In any case, I'd never side out armillary sphere to do it. That's like cutting your mulldrifters!
Night folks, will discuss tomorrow
Maybe you havn't actually played with white in the deck and are theorising. Maybe you havn't read the 2 entire threads devoted to RW Valakut control, and so can't comprehend what it does for you. Maybe you think you dont need ajani, scepter, firewalker/SSE, purges. Maybe it is a control deck, and as such it can easily get well past turn 10 consistently. The games it doesnt is where they kill you too fast for you to stablise (read: boros, vamps - both which die to ajani/purge, or RDW, which you only need a scepter and a SSE to entirely wreck - no need for burns to stabilise, they are a bonus, along with purges). Jund? scepter and purge.
Also, theres the fact that if a deck sees you playing nothing but red, they know its a burn deck, and they can formulate a strategy to get around that. not as many people know how to play effectively against a RW control deck (a small advantage, granted, but still an advantage)
And if you really think that red has as good a wrath as DoJ, then what about how long it takes to get effective? say they have 2 creatures on the board. are you going to red-wrath for 2? what if one is a firewalker? (which against a mono-red deck will certainly be brought in from SB) how do you get rid of him? how about SotJI? your going to need 5 creatured on the board to get rid of him, and since control decks play him, thats going to be a strech, unless you sacrifice all you goblin tokens.
No, you obviously havn't played it
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[CENTER]My Sale Thread[/CENTER]
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[CENTER]So many funny sig's, so little space...[/CENTER]
Originally Posted by i-never-smile
Ok, first of all, Siege-Gang Commander actually is The Messiah. Clearly he martyrs himself for the greater good of this deck, and he even inspires his apostles to do so as well. Ever seen SGC do 8 to someone's face in a board stall? That's like responding to Judas's betrayal by launching catapults loaded with Peter, Paul, John, and Jesus right at the Roman soldiers.
I think this is so true and absolutely hilarious. I'm shamelessly stealing this verbatim and instead o typing a big huge long long reply as to why SGC is good, I'm just going to use this instead.
(insert like five rofl smileys here!)
You know, I should really sig this. Feel free to steal it, so long as you don't lie and say you made it up!
For the record, I stopped playing Valakut Control because I swore an oath to play only decks with Islands for eternity. But I think there's a lot of potential here, if you're willing to test tons of new options from WWK in this deck. I would run the new Horn of Greed for sure, and I probably would play Everflowing Chalice because the deck was always based in 4-5 drops and accel is worth running IMHO.
I'm going to try kor firewalkers main over scepters, and perhaps chain reactions instead of earthquakes (though I may waffle out on that one, I like how EQ can hit opponent planeswalkers).
chalice I would be more enamored of if I wasn't trying firewalkers instead of scepters. I wish it made colors, but bad mind stone is still mind stone.
sundial thing seems a bit expensive for what it does, even if I know I'm reliably hitting landfall. I may try it out, but I'd just not know what to cut.
Same with Searing Blaze.
GAH I NEED TO GO TO BED -- I will post a decklist and inspire discussion tomorrow, if you can cheat on Jace for a little while =p
I think it would be better understood if you realized just how crazy Siege-gang Commander is for us red players. Honestly, I feel that red is unique among all of the colors in Magic simply because it doesn't get many ways of gaining card advantage. And it relies heavily on quality cards that have an extra impact when they're being casted. White lifegains/prevents, blue draws/counters, green ramps/beats, black kills/discards, and then you have us... we do damage. Well I guess we can destroy land too, heh.
I'm pretty new on these forums, but I've been in and out of Magic for the past 15 years. I've played every color, and I really feel that every color out there pretty much has an agenda, with the exception of red. We have spells in our hands and we have to make many, many decisions on what we're going to do with it. I imagine any blue control players know this feeling.
You will not see the words, "Target creature or player," nearly as often on any other cards than red cards.
But anyways, I feel cards like Siege-gang Commander gives us more opportunities for outs when we do make play errors. Not to mention that it also reminds me of my favorite red creature of all time, the almighty Arc-Slogger. When I untap with Siege-gang Commander still in play, it's like a huge sigh of relief and peace. It gives me confidence and it makes me feel like I'm going to win. It gives me hope! Heh.
Anyways, I'm just the type of player that usually opts on the side of when I lose, it was my fault, and not about how lucky someone got against me. That's just how I compete.
But hey, I could be wrong.
NINJA EDIT: By the way, is there been much of a discussion about Searing Blaze? At first, I loved this card as I thought of it as the mono red Blightning, but now I'm not so sure. I would hate to be sitting with it in my hand after I've spot removed all early game stuff, and draw it late game with nothing on the table, especially if I'm running Earthquake and co.