To answer the question of the post. No it is very very relevant if used correctly. I aggree that maybe some of the slower control decks (mainly 4 color) need to rethink its use as they are often throwing down terminate/ path in the first 4 turns which is less than ideal. That beeing said every other deck that can run path should run it. Aside from it being the best and msot efficent late game removal in T2 It has a few other uses not yet mentioned.
1. In boros- If you were ever wondering how to stop those pesky ajani goldmanes from killing one of your threats and gaining you opponent life leave that 1 mana open to path your creature and ramp yourself in adddition to destroying the planeswalker target hence stopping its effects.
2. Token decks- I am currently running a white token deck and personally I like to have many and answer to malstrom pulse which again pathing in response saves you.
Similar ramp yourself effects are quite useful making path still the best in the format.
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Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
1.pathing your own creature on the right time can give you the big chance to fix your mana base.
2.i path your BSA, opponent responses with negate you: oh well i have more mana open negate yours?
think of the endless aces of this card. in the right situation and right usage it will lead you to victory
Obviously, as others have covered, PtE is a good card. It's not a good removal spell early game. It's more of a mid-to-lategame spell. Turns 2/3[/4, depending], you're probably not going to want to use it because of the mana problems you talk about - you want to mitigate PtE's drawback and maximize its' strengths.
However, anywhere past that and the spell shines, basically because it removes anything permanently for W. It's even somewhat aggressive, unlike StP, since it doesn't gain your opponent life.
I mean, I dunno, I realize you want 'W: remove target creature from the game', but mid and late-game the drawback's pretty negligible, and what it does makes it the best removal spell in standard.
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and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
Verses Jund it is a great answer for Thrinax, but spot removal is pretty bad against Jund in general- This is because of the inherent card advantage that the spell in Jund generate. So it's a bad argument to say that Path is bad because it's bad against Jund because all spot removal is.
Path is used in Legacy so that alone shows it's strength. IMHO
PtE is no longer an auto-4 of in many decks that have colors other than white because early game the drawback is too big against too many decks.
Sure, mono white will play 4-of, but against any deck other than Jund I would say that Journey to Nowhere and Oblivion Ring are better options for white, because the drawback of having to play it on your turn is generally lower than letting them play their threats earlier.
Many Boros decks that I have seen recently have been cutting back to a 2-3 of instead of 4 because the drawback is too big early game. In a format full of Putrid Leeches, Bushwackers, Lynx, Geopede, Blademaster, Sprouting Thrinax, Knight of the Reliquary, Thoctar, and other 2-3 mana threats a removal spell that you don't want to play early is subpar.
I'm not saying that it is unplayable. But it sees play because there are almost no different options for instant speed white removal, not because it's "the best removal spell in the format". Maelstrom Pulse probably has that title, but that's a different discussion all together.
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I've had times where I myself have been Path'd and getting that extra land out helped tremendously.
Good point. Many don't consider that PtE can in fact ramp and mana-fix you if absolutely necessary. Let's see Terminate do that. It can also act as a defensive card. How many times have those of you playing PtE used it on one of your own guys in response to a Vamp deck targeting him for a massive Tendrils? I know I've used this play a number of times, costing my opponent the game in many of those situations. You might say other removal could do the same, but then again, not all removal is instant speed or 1cmc.
I think it's unanimous that Path is a great card. It's versatile, it has great tempo, and it removes from the game. It's negatives (Aside from the CA argument) also seem to be unanimous. It has also been established that those negatives are (In most cases) irrelevant if the card is use at the right time.
Based on this consensus, I think everyone can agree that Path is most definitely NOT bad in the meta. All competitive decks with white WILL run it. The only issue that really seems to be debatable is whether or not they should be run as play sets in all decks that can. I think that will be pretty much the only point of disagreement.
Based on this consensus, I think everyone can agree that Path is most definitely NOT bad in the meta. All competitive decks with white WILL run it. The only issue that really seems to be debatable is whether or not they should be run as play sets in all decks that can. I think that will be pretty much the only point of disagreement.
I maintain that Path is bad in the metagame, and the blind use of it as a decks primary source of removal is keeping WW and other heavy white decks out of contention as competitive. Unless I have missed something, no heavy white deck has performed well, despite having efficient first striking creatures(White Orchid, Blademaster), powerful low drops (Steppe Lynx, Vanguard, Soul Warden), and powerful late-game spells(Pledge, Baneslayer). All of the decks finishing highly on a regular basis contain white as a small portion of the manabase, never the main color.
I believe that everyone underestimates the downside of PtE. I played Jund for quite awhile, I have also tested Naya, Boros, and several other decks before settling on my current choice. During testing, I was never disappointed to see my opponent cast PtE, and was often disappointed with the results when I cast it on anything before T6.
Removal should be judged on an overall basis. Is Path good late-game? Of course. Is Path good early-mid game? Generally not. Early to mid game in this format is when many games are decided based on Board Position or who has better CA, and you should lower Path in your assessment because it is not as good in these vital turns of the game.
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Sure, mono white will play 4-of, but against any deck other than Jund I would say that Journey to Nowhere and Oblivion Ring are better options for white, because the drawback of having to play it on your turn is generally lower than letting them play their threats earlier.
o-ring or journey is better than path against matchup like boro or rdw? are you serious?
path is better than those two removals in general. some mono white run both 4 path and 3 o-ring md, and o-ring is usually the card that first gets side out g2 against boro, rdw, and jund. then you side out path for removals like purge//lightcaster for jund.
I think it's not how good or bad the card is, really. It's how you use it.
I'd path an attacking Baneslayer Angel anytime rather than getting a 10 point life differential. yes, there are alternatives (Celestial Purge in white though narrower, and more in other colors), then again, it's not the card, it's how it's used.
The raw power of thirinax, combined with jund's overwhelming presence, makes path overwhelmingly my favorite removal. Add to this the fact that it can deal with anything without shroud (something which lightning bolt simply can not do), and you have a winner. Icing on the cake is that it deals with random thornlings, which seem to be showing up from time to time.
Path is a 1 mana instant speed removal that can remove anything in standard (Minus shroud guys)... seriously what do you want?Sword?.
If i'm playing control I dont care about your extra land if it mean that you wont get your token with trinax.Being able to deny your opponent creature while keeping counter mana up is pretty huge, how care if they got an extra land?
If i'm playing aggro my path mean a bunch of damage in your face AND being able to drop creature this turn since I didn't spend a bunch of mana on a clunky O-Ring.Got a land?I got something called tempo, deal with it.
Of course if you're a total ☺☺☺☺☺☺ and throw your path at everything in sight without tinking twice you'll eat a Mind Sludge/Baneslayer turn 4 but how care, you deserve to lose anyway.
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I maintain that Path is bad in the metagame, and the blind use of it as a decks primary source of removal is keeping WW and other heavy white decks out of contention as competitive.
Heavy white deck aren't competitive not because they use path, but because they can't keep up with the quality and the quantity of the treat in standard.You got a 2/2 first-strike?Nice for you, I got a 4/4 for 2 and my removal suit is way better then your's, have fun!
I maintain that Path is bad in the metagame, and the blind use of it as a decks primary source of removal is keeping WW and other heavy white decks out of contention as competitive. Unless I have missed something, no heavy white deck has performed well, despite having efficient first striking creatures(White Orchid, Blademaster), powerful low drops (Steppe Lynx, Vanguard, Soul Warden), and powerful late-game spells(Pledge, Baneslayer). All of the decks finishing highly on a regular basis contain white as a small portion of the manabase, never the main color.
Can you please explain how this observation demonstrates that Path is bad? I don't quite see how saying that because a specific color hasn't been able to perform well competitively as a mono-color deck, that means that a certain card in the deck is bad... That would be like saying that because mono blue decks aren't doing anything competitively, Flashfreeze is a bad card...
Please feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you were trying to say.
If you're a moron and path something in the first few turns, then yes, its kind of bad.
If you're not a moron and path only in the mid-to-late game when the mana won't matter much, then it's a very good card.
The problem is that a lot of decks rely on path to be their early answer to creatures. In a lot of situations, you have to use path early game because you won't survive until mid-to-late game unless you do so. Your opponent leads off with a Goblin Guide. Do you path it, or do you take 8 damage until you can get to your turn 4 Day of Judgment?
Path is a good card, but there is a pretty clear reason why a deck like RWU control would rather max out on lightning bolt than max out on path. Bolt is early game removal without a drawback. In an aggro format, early game removal is key, and I'd much rather have a card that doesn't potentially aid my opponent into playing his spells or allow him to play them faster.
Can you please explain how this observation demonstrates that Path is bad? I don't quite see how saying that because a specific color hasn't been able to perform well competitively as a mono-color deck, that means that a certain card in the deck is bad... That would be like saying that because mono blue decks aren't doing anything competitively, Flashfreeze is a bad card...
Please feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you were trying to say.
I believe that Mono white builds would do better if they didn't play PtE as a 4-of. The curve of Mono White decks is fairly solid, but the use of removal in PtE is bad for the deck. It wasn't proof, a simple observation.
As a 4-of in mono white, you risk having to use it early to deal with a threat, such a Thrinax or Thoctar, that your creatures can't simply bash through. If, instead, they maxed out on Journey to Nowhere and played a 2-of Path, they could remove these creatures without speeding up their opponents curve.
In a format like this, where missing land drops spells doom more than any format I have personally played in, and where the manabase of the Top Deck(Jund) is shaky, the land that PtE provides is extremely relevant.
Everyone so far has said 'Path is an amazing card as long as you don't play it badly'. However, being a removal spell in an aggro format that is awkward to cast early, I don't understand how you can possibly contest it is the best removal in the format. I don't mean that it shouldn't see play, as 1 mana removal should always be used somewhere, I simply mean to point out that it is nowhere near as amazing as everyone thinks it is. 3 color decks should run it if they have white, but probably as a 2-of for late game power, not the 'auto 4-of' that most people seem inclined to throw into their decks.
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I believe that Mono white builds would do better if they didn't play PtE as a 4-of. The curve of Mono White decks is fairly solid, but the use of removal in PtE is bad for the deck. It wasn't proof, a simple observation.
As a 4-of in mono white, you risk having to use it early to deal with a threat, such a Thrinax or Thoctar, that your creatures can't simply bash through. If, instead, they maxed out on Journey to Nowhere and played a 2-of Path, they could remove these creatures without speeding up their opponents curve.
In a format like this, where missing land drops spells doom more than any format I have personally played in, and where the manabase of the Top Deck(Jund) is shaky, the land that PtE provides is extremely relevant.
Everyone so far has said 'Path is an amazing card as long as you don't play it badly'. However, being a removal spell in an aggro format that is awkward to cast early, I don't understand how you can possibly contest it is the best removal in the format. I don't mean that it shouldn't see play, as 1 mana removal should always be used somewhere, I simply mean to point out that it is nowhere near as amazing as everyone thinks it is. 3 color decks should run it if they have white, but probably as a 2-of for late game power, not the 'auto 4-of' that most people seem inclined to throw into their decks.
I believe that Mono white builds would do better if they didn't play PtE as a 4-of. The curve of Mono White decks is fairly solid, but the use of removal in PtE is bad for the deck. It wasn't proof, a simple observation.
As a 4-of in mono white, you risk having to use it early to deal with a threat, such a Thrinax or Thoctar, that your creatures can't simply bash through. If, instead, they maxed out on Journey to Nowhere and played a 2-of Path, they could remove these creatures without speeding up their opponents curve.
In a format like this, where missing land drops spells doom more than any format I have personally played in, and where the manabase of the Top Deck(Jund) is shaky, the land that PtE provides is extremely relevant.
Everyone so far has said 'Path is an amazing card as long as you don't play it badly'. However, being a removal spell in an aggro format that is awkward to cast early, I don't understand how you can possibly contest it is the best removal in the format. I don't mean that it shouldn't see play, as 1 mana removal should always be used somewhere, I simply mean to point out that it is nowhere near as amazing as everyone thinks it is. 3 color decks should run it if they have white, but probably as a 2-of for late game power, not the 'auto 4-of' that most people seem inclined to throw into their decks.
You seam to be ignoring that some cards get out these large threats earlier than some removal can deal with.
I don't entirely understand your statements. You continually say that PtE isn't a good card, but continually say that every deck running white should run copies of it, without giving any form of situation where it is completely detrimental. Sure, giving Jund an extra land is a bad thing, but Jund already has overwhelming CA compared to any deck in standard. In most cases, an extra land is better than three tokens, or an extra land is better than all your copies of a creature dying (you can target one of your own creatures, changing it into a land).
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I believe that Mono white builds would do better if they didn't play PtE as a 4-of. The curve of Mono White decks is fairly solid, but the use of removal in PtE is bad for the deck. It wasn't proof, a simple observation.
As a 4-of in mono white, you risk having to use it early to deal with a threat, such a Thrinax or Thoctar, that your creatures can't simply bash through. If, instead, they maxed out on Journey to Nowhere and played a 2-of Path, they could remove these creatures without speeding up their opponents curve.
In a format like this, where missing land drops spells doom more than any format I have personally played in, and where the manabase of the Top Deck(Jund) is shaky, the land that PtE provides is extremely relevant.
Everyone so far has said 'Path is an amazing card as long as you don't play it badly'. However, being a removal spell in an aggro format that is awkward to cast early, I don't understand how you can possibly contest it is the best removal in the format. I don't mean that it shouldn't see play, as 1 mana removal should always be used somewhere, I simply mean to point out that it is nowhere near as amazing as everyone thinks it is. 3 color decks should run it if they have white, but probably as a 2-of for late game power, not the 'auto 4-of' that most people seem inclined to throw into their decks.
1. In boros- If you were ever wondering how to stop those pesky ajani goldmanes from killing one of your threats and gaining you opponent life leave that 1 mana open to path your creature and ramp yourself in adddition to destroying the planeswalker target hence stopping its effects.
2. Token decks- I am currently running a white token deck and personally I like to have many and answer to malstrom pulse which again pathing in response saves you.
Similar ramp yourself effects are quite useful making path still the best in the format.
see path to exile?
..anyways, its a POWERFUL card which MUST be used in the RIGHT situations.
you say that if we path a creature and through the help of the added land they get to play a "bigger threat" lemme give you these situations..
1.if a BSA will wack you for CA would you hold a path back?
2.a random thornling runs into the field, can day of judgment and/or martial coup deal with it?
3.pathing a hellspark elemental/hell's thunder is ALWAYS CA mind you.
NOT TO MENTION..
1.pathing your own creature on the right time can give you the big chance to fix your mana base.
2.i path your BSA, opponent responses with negate you: oh well i have more mana open negate yours?
think of the endless aces of this card. in the right situation and right usage it will lead you to victory
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However, anywhere past that and the spell shines, basically because it removes anything permanently for W. It's even somewhat aggressive, unlike StP, since it doesn't gain your opponent life.
I mean, I dunno, I realize you want 'W: remove target creature from the game', but mid and late-game the drawback's pretty negligible, and what it does makes it the best removal spell in standard.
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
Verses Jund it is a great answer for Thrinax, but spot removal is pretty bad against Jund in general- This is because of the inherent card advantage that the spell in Jund generate. So it's a bad argument to say that Path is bad because it's bad against Jund because all spot removal is.
Path is used in Legacy so that alone shows it's strength. IMHO
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Sure, mono white will play 4-of, but against any deck other than Jund I would say that Journey to Nowhere and Oblivion Ring are better options for white, because the drawback of having to play it on your turn is generally lower than letting them play their threats earlier.
Many Boros decks that I have seen recently have been cutting back to a 2-3 of instead of 4 because the drawback is too big early game. In a format full of Putrid Leeches, Bushwackers, Lynx, Geopede, Blademaster, Sprouting Thrinax, Knight of the Reliquary, Thoctar, and other 2-3 mana threats a removal spell that you don't want to play early is subpar.
I'm not saying that it is unplayable. But it sees play because there are almost no different options for instant speed white removal, not because it's "the best removal spell in the format". Maelstrom Pulse probably has that title, but that's a different discussion all together.
Current Standard:
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Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
Good point. Many don't consider that PtE can in fact ramp and mana-fix you if absolutely necessary. Let's see Terminate do that. It can also act as a defensive card. How many times have those of you playing PtE used it on one of your own guys in response to a Vamp deck targeting him for a massive Tendrils? I know I've used this play a number of times, costing my opponent the game in many of those situations. You might say other removal could do the same, but then again, not all removal is instant speed or 1cmc.
Based on this consensus, I think everyone can agree that Path is most definitely NOT bad in the meta. All competitive decks with white WILL run it. The only issue that really seems to be debatable is whether or not they should be run as play sets in all decks that can. I think that will be pretty much the only point of disagreement.
I maintain that Path is bad in the metagame, and the blind use of it as a decks primary source of removal is keeping WW and other heavy white decks out of contention as competitive. Unless I have missed something, no heavy white deck has performed well, despite having efficient first striking creatures(White Orchid, Blademaster), powerful low drops (Steppe Lynx, Vanguard, Soul Warden), and powerful late-game spells(Pledge, Baneslayer). All of the decks finishing highly on a regular basis contain white as a small portion of the manabase, never the main color.
I believe that everyone underestimates the downside of PtE. I played Jund for quite awhile, I have also tested Naya, Boros, and several other decks before settling on my current choice. During testing, I was never disappointed to see my opponent cast PtE, and was often disappointed with the results when I cast it on anything before T6.
Removal should be judged on an overall basis. Is Path good late-game? Of course. Is Path good early-mid game? Generally not. Early to mid game in this format is when many games are decided based on Board Position or who has better CA, and you should lower Path in your assessment because it is not as good in these vital turns of the game.
Current Standard:
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Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
o-ring or journey is better than path against matchup like boro or rdw? are you serious?
path is better than those two removals in general. some mono white run both 4 path and 3 o-ring md, and o-ring is usually the card that first gets side out g2 against boro, rdw, and jund. then you side out path for removals like purge//lightcaster for jund.
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I'd path an attacking Baneslayer Angel anytime rather than getting a 10 point life differential. yes, there are alternatives (Celestial Purge in white though narrower, and more in other colors), then again, it's not the card, it's how it's used.
If you're not a moron and path only in the mid-to-late game when the mana won't matter much, then it's a very good card.
That drawback is more pronounced early game - less pronounced late game.
Are there situations where PTE is less than ideal - yes - just like every other card.
My $.02:)
If i'm playing control I dont care about your extra land if it mean that you wont get your token with trinax.Being able to deny your opponent creature while keeping counter mana up is pretty huge, how care if they got an extra land?
If i'm playing aggro my path mean a bunch of damage in your face AND being able to drop creature this turn since I didn't spend a bunch of mana on a clunky O-Ring.Got a land?I got something called tempo, deal with it.
Of course if you're a total ☺☺☺☺☺☺ and throw your path at everything in sight without tinking twice you'll eat a Mind Sludge/Baneslayer turn 4 but how care, you deserve to lose anyway.
Heavy white deck aren't competitive not because they use path, but because they can't keep up with the quality and the quantity of the treat in standard.You got a 2/2 first-strike?Nice for you, I got a 4/4 for 2 and my removal suit is way better then your's, have fun!
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Can you please explain how this observation demonstrates that Path is bad? I don't quite see how saying that because a specific color hasn't been able to perform well competitively as a mono-color deck, that means that a certain card in the deck is bad... That would be like saying that because mono blue decks aren't doing anything competitively, Flashfreeze is a bad card...
Please feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you were trying to say.
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The problem is that a lot of decks rely on path to be their early answer to creatures. In a lot of situations, you have to use path early game because you won't survive until mid-to-late game unless you do so. Your opponent leads off with a Goblin Guide. Do you path it, or do you take 8 damage until you can get to your turn 4 Day of Judgment?
Path is a good card, but there is a pretty clear reason why a deck like RWU control would rather max out on lightning bolt than max out on path. Bolt is early game removal without a drawback. In an aggro format, early game removal is key, and I'd much rather have a card that doesn't potentially aid my opponent into playing his spells or allow him to play them faster.
I believe that Mono white builds would do better if they didn't play PtE as a 4-of. The curve of Mono White decks is fairly solid, but the use of removal in PtE is bad for the deck. It wasn't proof, a simple observation.
As a 4-of in mono white, you risk having to use it early to deal with a threat, such a Thrinax or Thoctar, that your creatures can't simply bash through. If, instead, they maxed out on Journey to Nowhere and played a 2-of Path, they could remove these creatures without speeding up their opponents curve.
In a format like this, where missing land drops spells doom more than any format I have personally played in, and where the manabase of the Top Deck(Jund) is shaky, the land that PtE provides is extremely relevant.
Everyone so far has said 'Path is an amazing card as long as you don't play it badly'. However, being a removal spell in an aggro format that is awkward to cast early, I don't understand how you can possibly contest it is the best removal in the format. I don't mean that it shouldn't see play, as 1 mana removal should always be used somewhere, I simply mean to point out that it is nowhere near as amazing as everyone thinks it is. 3 color decks should run it if they have white, but probably as a 2-of for late game power, not the 'auto 4-of' that most people seem inclined to throw into their decks.
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
Thank you for the clarification. I agree.
You seam to be ignoring that some cards get out these large threats earlier than some removal can deal with.
I don't entirely understand your statements. You continually say that PtE isn't a good card, but continually say that every deck running white should run copies of it, without giving any form of situation where it is completely detrimental. Sure, giving Jund an extra land is a bad thing, but Jund already has overwhelming CA compared to any deck in standard. In most cases, an extra land is better than three tokens, or an extra land is better than all your copies of a creature dying (you can target one of your own creatures, changing it into a land).
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so you're advocating maxing up journey to nowhere instead of path?
lets see you pilot a mono white deck with 4 journeys and 2 paths against RDW. journeys cant keep up with their creatures.
and while you're at it, play against jund and see how they destroy your journeys with pulses.
i just dont get how you seem to keep saying path is strong yet relatively bad.
get over it. every deck which runs white will RUN IT as a 3/4 of. playing 2 is plain unreasonable and stupid.
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