I've been looking at standard recently and come to an interesting conclusion...
Path may be bad, or irrelevant, in this metagame. Essentially, Path is Negative CA. Here's the breakdown...
Opponent: Creature(0 CA)
You: Path(-1 CA)
Opponent: Loses creature(-1 CA), gets land(+1 CA)
Total: You (-1 CA), Opponent(No change).
Removal shoudl be able to create at least 0 total CA. Path can also be very bad against certain decks:
Why Path is bad... Against Jund: Will sometimes fix their shoddy manabase. Also, with Jund, they will sometimes be forced to keep sketchy hands with few lands, or incorrect lands. Path fixes both of these problems. It also allows them to cast BBE, Bit Blast, Broodmate earlier than their normal curve. Against Naya: Same as above with the manabase. They have fewer multicolor high curve creatures, but a T4 Baneslayer is pretty rough. Against WW: Most current white builds contain Emeria, the Sky Ruin to recur their late game. Path not only gives them another step towards getting that engine online, but it thins their already low land count(normally WW runs fewer lands due to low costing creatures) so they draw more gas.
Against Boros, RDW, and Putrid Leech Path is ok removal, but in all cases save Boros it thins their deck and allows them to draw more gas, and still provides you with negative CA.
Path is not a horrendous card due to it's ability to remove all creatures, but if you are running a multicolor deck, I would almost always consider other removal first.
Thoughts by the community?
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THE THOUGHTHAMMER HAS SPOKEN!
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
Path to Exile removes any targetable creature for 1 mana. The draw back is irrelevant because they don't have any more cards to cast with that extra mana.
as a jund player, path right now definitely doesn't make me a sad panda. its by no means bad though. Pathing sprouting thrinax, for example, or mid-late game when the mana is irrelevant.
However, any deck that had white in it, path would be the first card I included. The best way around path is most likely more removal. Some decks in legacy are starting to run a split between path and swords to plowshares, because the each one is better in certain situations. For mono white, maybe journey to nowhere or lightning bolt (if viable) early game and then path to deal with big creatures like baneslayer, becuase the 1 mana removal allows you to still play your threats while removing anything.
Path to Exile removes any targetable creature for 1 mana. The draw back is irrelevant because they don't have any more cards to cast with that extra mana.
Are you implying that somehow 4 Paths remove all the cards they can possibly play? If so, I disagree.
On the subject, I agree fully with the analyse of Path's negatives. Triple color decks tend to suffer from major mana issues. Giving them a land of their choice can be brutal. Speeding up their deck a turn can hurt aswell. Just look at W/U/R Control. Generally, with the destruction they have, Path takes a cut. Path is generally run in 2 in the deck. In the end though, Path will always be the primary means of destruction in decks that lack other means of destruction. And despite it's downsides, decks that can run it, will. Not necessarily in 4s, but they will still run it.
depend when you play it. obviously, you really don't want to path early cause giving your opponent a land is not a good thing to do. but at mid or late game, pathing is okay because giving an extra land doesn't make a difference if they have no cards to play with. also, you can sometime path your own creatures if you stuck on mana, not the best thing to do but you just gotta.
path is still the best white removal can have. if your not playing jund color, there is nothing better to replace it. path also becomes alot more relevant if your facing boro and rdw where you gotta path early or just gonna take buttload of dmg.
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Path to exile is a fantastic card and probably one of the best cards in conflux.
Thanks for your stimulating discussion x.x
Moving on:
Obviously if you are playing Mono White you will use path. But in WR Lightning Bolt tends to be included before Path. In Team America it has been cut down to a 2 of. It doesn't see play in many 4C decks. Junk often would rather draw Pulse than Path.
I'm not saying its unplayable. I'm simply saying that the new decks being played now make it a fair amount worse than it was in the past.
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Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
I will go a step further and say Path, imo, is the best removal in standard. I know, I know, go ahead and flame me now for saying it, but here's the argument.
The Negative?
The OP argues that it creates negative CA because of the cipt basic land it gives. In essense this is true, and if you use it too early I guess it could be of consequence. Mid to late game (turn 5+) though I would say that the land is virtually irrelevant and basically an extra land they didn't really need.
The Positive:
While CA can possibly be used as an argument against Path, it is by no means the only important factor in a game. Path provides both positive "tempo" and positive "quality" (board position if you will). It does this by allowing you to spend less mana on removing an opponents threat than they spent to play it, as well as, allowing less mana to be spent than other removal (think of some other things that might be argued as better removal like Terminate, Pulse, O-Ring, Bit Blast, Doom Blade, Tendrils, etc...). It will also allow less intense mana demands (see all multi-colored removal above) than most other removal, and it will be more flexible than similarly costed removal spells (Bolt, Disfigure, Deathmark, etc... are great but are limited). Finally, "removed from game" is much more powerful than damage, or "destroyed," or even "destroyed and can't be regenerated." Think of all the creatures that are good against other removal, but not Path (Thrinax and Thornling are two examples off the top of my head, but there are many others).
Path has won me so many games it's not even funny. By the time a Jund creature gets played that's worth Pathing, their mana is already fixed, so the drawback is irrelevant.
Path to exile is a card that depends entirely upon when you cast it, and what you target.
If I get to exile a BSA, I don't care if you get 10 lands.
If I path Sprouting Thrinax on the Jund player's turn 3, the only thing that's going to gain accelleration from it would be a broodmate. And If I can't deal with that on turn 5, my chances wouldn't be much better on turn 6.
Path is definately one of those spells that you need to play carefully. Otherwise it does exactly this, gives negative CA.
Oh. And the 1cmc. Gold.
Them: I'll play BSA.
Me: Sure. Eot? I'll path your BSA. Oh, you tapped out to play that. Ace.
My turn: BSA.
Path is pretty bad against jund, until they hit 6 mana pathing them probably does more harm than good , avoid pathing unless absolutely necessary, ramping them into double dragon is probably worse than just letting their stupid bloodbraid elf live.
That being said path is a necessary evil in the format for most white/x decks because of :
1. Baneslayer Angel
2. Emeria Angel (which is often out of bolt range due to pump effects)
3. Thornling
4. Red X/1 hasteys esp, those with unearth.
All of the above tend to kill you quite brutally unless you have an answer.
land means nothing in an aggro format, therefore PtE is good.
Also, what one would you rather have, a strong creature or a basic land...
Land means nothing? How would you play your aggro based creatures without land? Land is just as important as it ever was...
As for the question, I'd like to point out how extremely loaded the question is. Depends on the point in the game, what you have in your hand, and the situation of the board.
Sometimes, that "basic land," can turn into a "strong"er creature the next turn...
I disagree with the argument of card advantage. Ultimately, casting a Path gives you "card disadvantage" in order to exchange a super powerful crit (or even a seemingly harmless but nonetheless game-changing crit) for a measly basic land.. MTG is way more complex than just CA alone.. there are many other factors..
One thing I'll agree on, no point in using a Path early on if it will generally give your opponent an advantage to have that extra land out. I've had times where I myself have been Path'd and getting that extra land out helped tremendously.
I would generally avoid playing a full set of Paths, I'd rather get them later on in the game to do some heavy creature controlling while still preserving mana to get my own heavy spells out, Journey to Nowhere, Oblivion Ring, Celestial Purge, Deathmark or even some preemptive creature control in the form of counter spells should be mixed in.
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
Path is still great removal, because, as stated before, it's spot removal on anything, save Shroud creatures, for one white mana. It's the best spot removal white has seen in a while and the draw back is minute because they can't use the mana right away and it generates an immediate advantage by removing a threat.
The argument in the first post about fixing an opponent's mana base is good, I just don't think it matters. Sure, Jund and Naya encompasses 50% of the current meta, but I really doubt using 1 or 2 Paths a game is going to effect the outcome that much. While I know it advances them ahead a turn curve-wise, and that's a problem, I also think that most decks should be able to handle the higher cmc spells. The real problem here is that 50% of the meta abuses cascade meaning that most of their spells are 2-for-1s, not that our removal isn't good enough. I do remember when Path was the defining removal spell of Standard, and decks started running 4 or so basic lands to reap as much benefit as possible from the best spot removal at the time.
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This removal is really amazing. I would recommend it for any one in their colors. I have just recently started testing it now as a 2x md. I find it so hard to make room for the cards i am looking for so i moved 2 of them to my sb.
I agree with the OP. I think Path is weaker than Terminate and Bolt when it comes to removal right now. The problem with Path is that it's a "late game" removal spell, because the drawback is too strong early game. Plenty of Jund lists run rampant growth maindeck...to say that giving them a rampant growth is meaningless is pretty hilarious when they actually play rampant growth...I've seen Naya struggle to get the right mana for Baneslayer on numerous occasions. Pathing a Wooly Thoctar can fix them into it...etc. Every aggro deck can benefit from acceleration and fixing.
Path is at it's best when you play it late game when your opponent already has their mana developed as much as is necessary and the rampant growth effect is merely deck thinning. The problem is, sometimes you have to use it early game to avoid dying, and in that scenario you do fix and accelerate your opponent into big threats.
Path is removal you don't want to play early game. In an aggro format, that's a drawback. It does have huge upside in cost/restrictions/ability to handle potential problem creatures like Thrinax or Unearth dudes, but there are also downsides. It's worth running in white, but definitely not an auto-include 4 of without question.
Path to Exile is a very versatile card. You can path a creature to give landfall to a Plated Geopede and a Steppe Lynx for example. You can ramp yourself up if you have a creature and need a land (especially if they try to use removal). It is very good, although you really do have to be careful ramping Jund into Double Dragon.
That being said, my current list of Boros Bushwhacker has cut down to 3 Path to Exile simply because with 3 Earthquake, the deck doesn't need the removal as much.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I love the versatility of Path that a lot of people don't always consider in discussions such as these. For example, in my boros deck I have pathed a small creature of my own to trigger landfall for my Lynx's and Geopede's to be able to attack for the game. It can also be useful for example if I am playing against jund and they Malesturm Pulse a creature I have 2 or 3 of, I can in response remove the Pulse's target from the game so all of them aren't destroyed, and I get a land out of it.
This is not to mention the normal uses of Path, trading it for a Baneslayer is always an OK thing.
IMO: Yes, Path does have its drawbacks, but as long as you play smart it shouldn't matter, the use of the card is in your hands. If your playing jund and you notice they don't have red and the creature on the board isn't an immediate threat, wait and let them be mana screwed a little bit longer, lol, just play smart with it.
Edit: Foodchaingoblins beat me to some of my points.
It doesn't really matter that much that they get a land because you still take out one of their creatures for 1 mana. depends on who you target and when you cast it but it is purely one of the best if not the best removal in standard right now.
I love Path to Exile, easily my favorite card in standard right now. I used to run them in every single white deck I would make but lately I've been noticing that to my deck in my meta it's really unnecessary. I'm playing turbo-fog with hard Mill as the wincon and it was great the first couple of FNMs to spring an Archive Trap on people for free but lately they haven't been searching which makes the card stronger but at the same time weaker for my deck since I don't generally care how many creatures they have.
Path is the best removal in standard because it deals with indestructible threats and recurring threats. If you Terminate a Bloodghast (or whatever removal spell floats your boat) aren't you also generating negative card advantage?
Path may be bad, or irrelevant, in this metagame. Essentially, Path is Negative CA. Here's the breakdown...
Opponent: Creature(0 CA)
You: Path(-1 CA)
Opponent: Loses creature(-1 CA), gets land(+1 CA)
Total: You (-1 CA), Opponent(No change).
Removal shoudl be able to create at least 0 total CA. Path can also be very bad against certain decks:
Why Path is bad...
Against Jund: Will sometimes fix their shoddy manabase. Also, with Jund, they will sometimes be forced to keep sketchy hands with few lands, or incorrect lands. Path fixes both of these problems. It also allows them to cast BBE, Bit Blast, Broodmate earlier than their normal curve.
Against Naya: Same as above with the manabase. They have fewer multicolor high curve creatures, but a T4 Baneslayer is pretty rough.
Against WW: Most current white builds contain Emeria, the Sky Ruin to recur their late game. Path not only gives them another step towards getting that engine online, but it thins their already low land count(normally WW runs fewer lands due to low costing creatures) so they draw more gas.
Against Boros, RDW, and Putrid Leech Path is ok removal, but in all cases save Boros it thins their deck and allows them to draw more gas, and still provides you with negative CA.
Path is not a horrendous card due to it's ability to remove all creatures, but if you are running a multicolor deck, I would almost always consider other removal first.
Thoughts by the community?
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
Hm? Why do they have no more cards?
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
However, any deck that had white in it, path would be the first card I included. The best way around path is most likely more removal. Some decks in legacy are starting to run a split between path and swords to plowshares, because the each one is better in certain situations. For mono white, maybe journey to nowhere or lightning bolt (if viable) early game and then path to deal with big creatures like baneslayer, becuase the 1 mana removal allows you to still play your threats while removing anything.
:sympu:NinjaFaerieStill:sympu:
:symb:Maga, Traitor to Mortals:symb:
Are you implying that somehow 4 Paths remove all the cards they can possibly play? If so, I disagree.
On the subject, I agree fully with the analyse of Path's negatives. Triple color decks tend to suffer from major mana issues. Giving them a land of their choice can be brutal. Speeding up their deck a turn can hurt aswell. Just look at W/U/R Control. Generally, with the destruction they have, Path takes a cut. Path is generally run in 2 in the deck. In the end though, Path will always be the primary means of destruction in decks that lack other means of destruction. And despite it's downsides, decks that can run it, will. Not necessarily in 4s, but they will still run it.
Currently playing in standard:
WWWMono white supermacyWWW
WRGThe millenaya falconWRG
Currently playing in extended:
WUXMartyr FoundryWUX
Currently working on:
WUBRGA fully powered 8 man cubeWUBRG
path is still the best white removal can have. if your not playing jund color, there is nothing better to replace it. path also becomes alot more relevant if your facing boro and rdw where you gotta path early or just gonna take buttload of dmg.
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Thanks for your stimulating discussion x.x
Moving on:
Obviously if you are playing Mono White you will use path. But in WR Lightning Bolt tends to be included before Path. In Team America it has been cut down to a 2 of. It doesn't see play in many 4C decks. Junk often would rather draw Pulse than Path.
I'm not saying its unplayable. I'm simply saying that the new decks being played now make it a fair amount worse than it was in the past.
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
The Negative?
The OP argues that it creates negative CA because of the cipt basic land it gives. In essense this is true, and if you use it too early I guess it could be of consequence. Mid to late game (turn 5+) though I would say that the land is virtually irrelevant and basically an extra land they didn't really need.
The Positive:
While CA can possibly be used as an argument against Path, it is by no means the only important factor in a game. Path provides both positive "tempo" and positive "quality" (board position if you will). It does this by allowing you to spend less mana on removing an opponents threat than they spent to play it, as well as, allowing less mana to be spent than other removal (think of some other things that might be argued as better removal like Terminate, Pulse, O-Ring, Bit Blast, Doom Blade, Tendrils, etc...). It will also allow less intense mana demands (see all multi-colored removal above) than most other removal, and it will be more flexible than similarly costed removal spells (Bolt, Disfigure, Deathmark, etc... are great but are limited). Finally, "removed from game" is much more powerful than damage, or "destroyed," or even "destroyed and can't be regenerated." Think of all the creatures that are good against other removal, but not Path (Thrinax and Thornling are two examples off the top of my head, but there are many others).
If I get to exile a BSA, I don't care if you get 10 lands.
If I path Sprouting Thrinax on the Jund player's turn 3, the only thing that's going to gain accelleration from it would be a broodmate. And If I can't deal with that on turn 5, my chances wouldn't be much better on turn 6.
Path is definately one of those spells that you need to play carefully. Otherwise it does exactly this, gives negative CA.
Oh. And the 1cmc. Gold.
Them: I'll play BSA.
Me: Sure. Eot? I'll path your BSA. Oh, you tapped out to play that. Ace.
My turn: BSA.
For W, it's hard to argue with, but considering my first play is usually a T3 Thrinax, I really don't want to be ramping my opponent.
However, I know if I run into a Thornling or Darksteel Colossus, I'l be in trouble.
Also, what one would you rather have, a strong creature or a basic land...
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That being said path is a necessary evil in the format for most white/x decks because of :
1. Baneslayer Angel
2. Emeria Angel (which is often out of bolt range due to pump effects)
3. Thornling
4. Red X/1 hasteys esp, those with unearth.
All of the above tend to kill you quite brutally unless you have an answer.
Land means nothing? How would you play your aggro based creatures without land? Land is just as important as it ever was...
As for the question, I'd like to point out how extremely loaded the question is. Depends on the point in the game, what you have in your hand, and the situation of the board.
Sometimes, that "basic land," can turn into a "strong"er creature the next turn...
One thing I'll agree on, no point in using a Path early on if it will generally give your opponent an advantage to have that extra land out. I've had times where I myself have been Path'd and getting that extra land out helped tremendously.
I would generally avoid playing a full set of Paths, I'd rather get them later on in the game to do some heavy creature controlling while still preserving mana to get my own heavy spells out, Journey to Nowhere, Oblivion Ring, Celestial Purge, Deathmark or even some preemptive creature control in the form of counter spells should be mixed in.
WUBRG
The argument in the first post about fixing an opponent's mana base is good, I just don't think it matters. Sure, Jund and Naya encompasses 50% of the current meta, but I really doubt using 1 or 2 Paths a game is going to effect the outcome that much. While I know it advances them ahead a turn curve-wise, and that's a problem, I also think that most decks should be able to handle the higher cmc spells. The real problem here is that 50% of the meta abuses cascade meaning that most of their spells are 2-for-1s, not that our removal isn't good enough. I do remember when Path was the defining removal spell of Standard, and decks started running 4 or so basic lands to reap as much benefit as possible from the best spot removal at the time.
Removing a giant threat in exchange for a Rampant Growth for 1 white mana is a fantastic tradeoff.
Currently playing:
M13 Draft
GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD)
GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
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Path is at it's best when you play it late game when your opponent already has their mana developed as much as is necessary and the rampant growth effect is merely deck thinning. The problem is, sometimes you have to use it early game to avoid dying, and in that scenario you do fix and accelerate your opponent into big threats.
Path is removal you don't want to play early game. In an aggro format, that's a drawback. It does have huge upside in cost/restrictions/ability to handle potential problem creatures like Thrinax or Unearth dudes, but there are also downsides. It's worth running in white, but definitely not an auto-include 4 of without question.
That being said, my current list of Boros Bushwhacker has cut down to 3 Path to Exile simply because with 3 Earthquake, the deck doesn't need the removal as much.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)This is not to mention the normal uses of Path, trading it for a Baneslayer is always an OK thing.
IMO: Yes, Path does have its drawbacks, but as long as you play smart it shouldn't matter, the use of the card is in your hands. If your playing jund and you notice they don't have red and the creature on the board isn't an immediate threat, wait and let them be mana screwed a little bit longer, lol, just play smart with it.
Edit: Foodchaingoblins beat me to some of my points.
Path is the best removal in standard because it deals with indestructible threats and recurring threats. If you Terminate a Bloodghast (or whatever removal spell floats your boat) aren't you also generating negative card advantage?