I really like Sign in Blood! two cards for two mana is really good. Although the life lose is something the we have to be cautious about. I use fetchlands but I also use the Refuge's aswell but I think I would add more Refuge's if I wanted to run more Sign's.
I think having a couple should be fine. 2 sounds like the right number. Maybe 2 Sign in Blood's 2 Courier's Capsule and 2 Divination? That way you have your 2 cmc 3 cmc and 4 cmc draw spells.
In my testing with many, many builds in those colors (not all of course) sign in blood and divination proved to be the best draw spells by miles, like another poster said with sign it's easier to draw gas turn four with mana open for removal (or turn 2 against slow decks), a faster development and better control board, in the long run, protect our life total a lot better than saving the two life for sign in the early game but being slower to establish board control....
recently I play 4 sign in blood in a B/R mid-range deck without counters and with Earthquakes, which also hurt our life, still the life loss has never been an issue but the 2 card boost for just two mana is a huge benefit.
also the point is not to cast all four of them, the point is that now you can cast one or two early game when the low cost is a big bonus and then later on, with more lands on the board, rely on divination and Lost Truth more....when signs can be discarded to the sphinx or even be used as finishers.
either way Chapin's and Wafo-Grixis lists, which were probably tested a lot more than any of our decks, run four sign in blood and four divination, I'll have to agree with the pros on this one...
but this topic has become tedious already, it's a free country and this deck can do ok in different configurations.
peace, gl
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Niteowl the blue mage....
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
I think you nailed it Niteowl. We need to control the board and if Sign in Blood makes that easier then I'll pay two life all day. Good evaluation on the Lost Truths thing too. and yeah, being on the opposing side of a Sign in Blood for the lose, I can say that this card is a beast.
um it was a pun pertaining with the cards flavor. It's called sign in blood for a reason. The cost is putting yourself in bolt range 2 turns before you realize it.
Lol it was pretty punful Still not settled on what finisher to use... I have gone back Jwar Jwar for now as he seems more competent in finishing the game then Sorin.
I think you nailed it Niteowl. We need to control the board and if Sign in Blood makes that easier then I'll pay two life all day. Good evaluation on the Lost Truths thing too. and yeah, being on the opposing side of a Sign in Blood for the lose, I can say that this card is a beast.
but if you want to play sign early you need to rearrange your mana base to have more black. This hurts pretty much everything else in the deck. It's not so much sign in blood itself as it is what you have to do to the deck to cast it at the right time.
True, but if you have Crumbling Necropolis first turn then you should be good. I know it'll make Double Negative playable one turn later but I think that's not too mcuh of a problem.
In my build I only run 2 Negative's so I'm not too concerned...
If your that worried just run two bro..it really is a good card!
but if you want to play sign early you need to rearrange your mana base to have more black. This hurts pretty much everything else in the deck. It's not so much sign in blood itself as it is what you have to do to the deck to cast it at the right time.
I would try Wafo Grixis manabase and see how you feel with it. I have had little to no problems. If you want to be on the safe side, take out a swamp and put a refuge in. Even that isn't really necessary.
Speaking of which, hate to bring up an old subject but I would like to bring up my old case against SoLT. He always dies... Do you ever get to swing or block with him really? Even for people that say you can play him turn 5 and use him to ditch useless cards for 3 new ones, in this case mind spring would have just drew you 3 cards and no need to discard...
Ok so you do get some tempo back when they tap 3 to pulse it, but it sucks when its pathed or terminated it. The only thing I like about the body is it's pulse bait to keep it away from the planeswalkers. If you use any that is... Give me my Concentrate Wizards!!! The other advantage of Solt is you can get it back with Cruel, provide it wasn't pathed... Still not sure how important that is, and that aspect seems win more to me.
Speaking of which, hate to bring up an old subject but I would like to bring up my old case against SoLT. He always dies... Do you ever get to swing or block with him really? Even for people that say you can play him turn 5 and use him to ditch useless cards for 3 new ones, in this case mind spring would have just drew you 3 cards and no need to discard...
Ok so you do get some tempo back when they tap 3 to pulse it, but it sucks when its pathed or terminated it. The only thing I like about the body is it's pulse bait to keep it away from the planeswalkers. If you use any that is... Give me my Concentrate Wizards!!! The other advantage of Solt is you can get it back with Cruel, provide it wasn't pathed... Still not sure how important that is, and that aspect seems win more to me.
The sphinx worked pretty well for me last night. I didn't like the idea of playing it at first either, but it has grown on me. If your opponent plays Path on it, then you get to play Cruel one turn earlier.
I think tempo is the key. You force your opponent to start playing defensively rather than dropping another threat. SoLT enables you to start getting an advantage in board position a turn earlier than Jwar Jwar. The card filtering really helps too.
Speaking of which, hate to bring up an old subject but I would like to bring up my old case against SoLT. He always dies... Do you ever get to swing or block with him really? Even for people that say you can play him turn 5 and use him to ditch useless cards for 3 new ones, in this case mind spring would have just drew you 3 cards and no need to discard...
I've made that same argument before, and I tend to agree with it for the most part. I ran 1 copy of Sphinx of Lost Truths to vary it up and basically to test it out because people who are good players and very familiar with Cruel Control suggested I run it. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't amazing either. I've cut it from the build I'm running currently, so...
I only kicked it once. Most of the time I just played it straight on turn 5 to hope to dig into Cruel. It's good for digging into Cruel, but I do like Mind Spring better for that purpose in most situations because it provides you with actual card advantage, and doesn't turn on and eat otherwise dead cards in your opponent's hand. The advantage of Sphinx in that situation is potential tempo gain by eating removal (potential, because a lot of removal is cheap enough to where it isn't actually tempo gain...) and possible ramp into Cruel if your opponent decides to nail it with a path.
Okay, here is the build I will be running(most likely) friday at FNM... I think I have the mana set up to support 3 Sign in Blood and 3 Double Negative.
Yes, but they get to discard 3, lose 5 life sac a creature, then draw 3, gain 5, and recycle a creature.
So it would do nothing basically.
actually, no, in a one on one duel you can't swerve any card that reads "target opponent", that's because yes, we swerve a spell, but the caster of the spell doesn't change, and the caster cannot be his "opponent" as well..
in multiplayer we can swerve a cruel to hit another opponent of the caster, no such option in a regular duel, any card that reads "target opponent" cannot be swerved (again, in a one on one duel)
peace, gl
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Niteowl the blue mage....
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
Can anyone explain how SoLt is better than just mind spring? It seems to me that mind spring will perform better 9 times out of 10 due to the fact it doesn't turn on otherwise dead cards....
actually, no, in a one on one duel you can't swerve any card that reads "target opponent", that's because yes, we swerve a spell, but the caster of the spell doesn't change, and the caster cannot be his "opponent" as well..
in multiplayer we can swerve a cruel to hit another opponent of the caster, no such option in a regular duel, any card that reads "target opponent" cannot be swerved (again, in a one on one duel)
peace, gl
my apologies.
I forgot that Cruel can only target an opponent.
Can anyone explain how SoLt is better than just mind spring? It seems to me that mind spring will perform better 9 times out of 10 due to the fact it doesn't turn on otherwise dead cards....
well, dude, which card is better is hard to tell but I think you overestimate the whole "activating dead cards" thingy..... for one thing if they do use some removal the discard effect of cruel would be more effective, as they would have less dead cards to just get rid of.... (game 1 anyways)
then, if you cast a spring, ok, they won't use that card, but we don't get a creature so whether they used the spell or not doesn't really make a difference (but card advantage from keeping the three cards is a different issue)
finally, if Lost Truth is the only targetable creature, and they keep removal in the deck to deal with it, that's kind of to our advantage as they keep near useless cards since Lost Truth body is mostly just a bonus..
anyways, tough choice, but in some games Lost Truth's body did actually help me win and it's a cool creature.. but yeah, there's good arguments for running the spring as well
peace, gl
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Niteowl the blue mage....
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
my apologies.
I forgot that Cruel can only target an opponent.
no need to apologize dude, it happens, but we better be aware of the rules, mistakes can be costly with this deck
peace, gl
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Niteowl the blue mage....
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
well, dude, which card is better is hard to tell but I think you overestimate the whole "activating dead cards" thingy..... for one thing if they do use some removal the discard effect of cruel would be more effective, as they would have less dead cards to just get rid of.... (game 1 anyways)
then, if you cast a spring, ok, they won't use that card, but we don't get a creature so whether they used the spell or not doesn't really make a difference (but card advantage from keeping the three cards is a different issue)
finally, if Lost Truth is the only targetable creature, and they keep removal in the deck to deal with it, that's kind of to our advantage as they keep near useless cards since Lost Truth body is mostly just a bonus..
anyways, tough choice, but in some games Lost Truth's body did actually help me win and it's a cool creature.. but yeah, there's good arguments for running the spring as well
peace, gl
Can't they be tandem?
I have seen a lot of lists with a 2/2 split of Sphinx/Mind Spring
I have seen a lot of lists with a 2/2 split of Sphinx/Mind Spring
I think it really depends on the overall list.... actual Chapin and Wafo Grixis also ran 4 sign in Blood and 4 divination, to me in a list with so much card drawing 3 Sphinx of Lost Truth make a lot more sense, to get an extra body and maybe ditch some draw spells if they're clogging our hand or we don't want to waste life on sign for example...
with less Sign/Divination in the list, well, who knows, either spring or SoLT or both, realy tough call
peace, gl
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Niteowl the blue mage....
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
I think it really depends on the overall list.... actual Chapin and Wafo Grixis also ran 4 sign in Blood and 4 divination, to me in a list with so much card drawing 3 Sphinx of Lost Truth make a lot more sense, to get an extra body and maybe ditch some draw spells if they're clogging our hand or we don't want to waste life on sign for example...
with less Sign/Divination in the list, well, who knows, either spring or SoLT or both, realy tough call
peace, gl
I personally am not a big fan of it can ditch spells argument. That is like banking on having a bad hand for it to be good at 5. That does not make much sense to me. What happens if we have an ok hand? Or what about a good hand? I know people will say, "If you have a good hand, you are already winning right?" That would be the case if Jund and Naya weren't so crazy strong. Sphinx without kicker is pretty underwhelming then. A lot of times the pitching 3 cards will be a drawback when you could have just drawn 3 cards... The body is nice sometimes... It seems like a sometimes card many times.
I will give you it can make SB decisions awkward for your opponent, but is that enough?
In the creature infested meta, tapping out on your own turn for Mind Spring can be brutal. Spending a whole turn midgame not affecting the board could spell doom. At least with SoLT, you get a 3/5 flier, ie a win con.
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I think having a couple should be fine. 2 sounds like the right number. Maybe 2 Sign in Blood's 2 Courier's Capsule and 2 Divination? That way you have your 2 cmc 3 cmc and 4 cmc draw spells.
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
recently I play 4 sign in blood in a B/R mid-range deck without counters and with Earthquakes, which also hurt our life, still the life loss has never been an issue but the 2 card boost for just two mana is a huge benefit.
also the point is not to cast all four of them, the point is that now you can cast one or two early game when the low cost is a big bonus and then later on, with more lands on the board, rely on divination and Lost Truth more....when signs can be discarded to the sphinx or even be used as finishers.
either way Chapin's and Wafo-Grixis lists, which were probably tested a lot more than any of our decks, run four sign in blood and four divination, I'll have to agree with the pros on this one...
but this topic has become tedious already, it's a free country and this deck can do ok in different configurations.
peace, gl
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
Lol it was pretty punful Still not settled on what finisher to use... I have gone back Jwar Jwar for now as he seems more competent in finishing the game then Sorin.
but if you want to play sign early you need to rearrange your mana base to have more black. This hurts pretty much everything else in the deck. It's not so much sign in blood itself as it is what you have to do to the deck to cast it at the right time.
In my build I only run 2 Negative's so I'm not too concerned...
If your that worried just run two bro..it really is a good card!
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
I would try Wafo Grixis manabase and see how you feel with it. I have had little to no problems. If you want to be on the safe side, take out a swamp and put a refuge in. Even that isn't really necessary.
Speaking of which, hate to bring up an old subject but I would like to bring up my old case against SoLT. He always dies... Do you ever get to swing or block with him really? Even for people that say you can play him turn 5 and use him to ditch useless cards for 3 new ones, in this case mind spring would have just drew you 3 cards and no need to discard...
Ok so you do get some tempo back when they tap 3 to pulse it, but it sucks when its pathed or terminated it. The only thing I like about the body is it's pulse bait to keep it away from the planeswalkers. If you use any that is... Give me my Concentrate Wizards!!! The other advantage of Solt is you can get it back with Cruel, provide it wasn't pathed... Still not sure how important that is, and that aspect seems win more to me.
The sphinx worked pretty well for me last night. I didn't like the idea of playing it at first either, but it has grown on me. If your opponent plays Path on it, then you get to play Cruel one turn earlier.
I think tempo is the key. You force your opponent to start playing defensively rather than dropping another threat. SoLT enables you to start getting an advantage in board position a turn earlier than Jwar Jwar. The card filtering really helps too.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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I've made that same argument before, and I tend to agree with it for the most part. I ran 1 copy of Sphinx of Lost Truths to vary it up and basically to test it out because people who are good players and very familiar with Cruel Control suggested I run it. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't amazing either. I've cut it from the build I'm running currently, so...
I only kicked it once. Most of the time I just played it straight on turn 5 to hope to dig into Cruel. It's good for digging into Cruel, but I do like Mind Spring better for that purpose in most situations because it provides you with actual card advantage, and doesn't turn on and eat otherwise dead cards in your opponent's hand. The advantage of Sphinx in that situation is potential tempo gain by eating removal (potential, because a lot of removal is cheap enough to where it isn't actually tempo gain...) and possible ramp into Cruel if your opponent decides to nail it with a path.
2x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Spells(31)
4x Terminate
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Sign in Blood
3x Flashfreeze
3x Agony Warp
3x Cruel Ultimatum
3x Double Negative
3x Earthquake
2x Essence Scatter
2x Chandra Nalaar
2x Divination
1x Mind Spring
4x Crumbling Necropolis
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Drowned Catacomb
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Island
3x Mountain
3x Swamp
2x Jwar Isle Refuge
4x Spreading Seas
3x Deathmark
3x Negate
2x Goblin Ruinblaster
2x Pithing Needle
1x Relic Of Progenitus
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
So it would do nothing basically.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
actually, no, in a one on one duel you can't swerve any card that reads "target opponent", that's because yes, we swerve a spell, but the caster of the spell doesn't change, and the caster cannot be his "opponent" as well..
in multiplayer we can swerve a cruel to hit another opponent of the caster, no such option in a regular duel, any card that reads "target opponent" cannot be swerved (again, in a one on one duel)
peace, gl
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
my apologies.
I forgot that Cruel can only target an opponent.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
well, dude, which card is better is hard to tell but I think you overestimate the whole "activating dead cards" thingy..... for one thing if they do use some removal the discard effect of cruel would be more effective, as they would have less dead cards to just get rid of.... (game 1 anyways)
then, if you cast a spring, ok, they won't use that card, but we don't get a creature so whether they used the spell or not doesn't really make a difference (but card advantage from keeping the three cards is a different issue)
finally, if Lost Truth is the only targetable creature, and they keep removal in the deck to deal with it, that's kind of to our advantage as they keep near useless cards since Lost Truth body is mostly just a bonus..
anyways, tough choice, but in some games Lost Truth's body did actually help me win and it's a cool creature.. but yeah, there's good arguments for running the spring as well
peace, gl
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
no need to apologize dude, it happens, but we better be aware of the rules, mistakes can be costly with this deck
peace, gl
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
Can't they be tandem?
I have seen a lot of lists with a 2/2 split of Sphinx/Mind Spring
I think it really depends on the overall list.... actual Chapin and Wafo Grixis also ran 4 sign in Blood and 4 divination, to me in a list with so much card drawing 3 Sphinx of Lost Truth make a lot more sense, to get an extra body and maybe ditch some draw spells if they're clogging our hand or we don't want to waste life on sign for example...
with less Sign/Divination in the list, well, who knows, either spring or SoLT or both, realy tough call
peace, gl
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
I personally am not a big fan of it can ditch spells argument. That is like banking on having a bad hand for it to be good at 5. That does not make much sense to me. What happens if we have an ok hand? Or what about a good hand? I know people will say, "If you have a good hand, you are already winning right?" That would be the case if Jund and Naya weren't so crazy strong. Sphinx without kicker is pretty underwhelming then. A lot of times the pitching 3 cards will be a drawback when you could have just drawn 3 cards... The body is nice sometimes... It seems like a sometimes card many times.
I will give you it can make SB decisions awkward for your opponent, but is that enough?