Planar Cleansing is underrated. Not as a 4-of, obviously, but it should be seriously considered as a 2-of. There are many pesky enchantments, artifacts and planeswalkers running around and cleansing the board (while being a regular DoJ if they don't have any of this) is a pretty good option to have.
Wall of Denial: buys you time against the aggro decks, 2 of which are Decks to beat.
Deft Duelist: annoys aggro- double evasion
Tidehallow sculler: if they have no answer, he's information and disruption- if they have an answer- he's a removal magnet to drop before big threats.
Kor Skyfisher: strange when a 2/3 flyer for 1w isn't seeing play. His "drawback" is often a big bonus with any "CIP" themed critters like ruinblasters, BBelfs, gatekeepers, etc.
Day of judgement: for a card that got such huge pre-release hype, no decks of note are really packing it in a big way. A white mono is starting to see play and looks good. this might be going up soon.
Summoning trap:Brutal. The decks built around this are no more inconsistant then jund, and a trap into iona is game over 99% of the time. The deck gets to 6 mana in no time flat with ramp and harrow.
Chandra nalar:Eats a creature and comes back for more. Huge starting counters make it a pain in the ass. Still cheap to buy- and impacts well in what appears to be largely a mid-range meta.
Overrated?
I think nissa and monument are WAY overrated- one win and then cards tripled in value- and don't break down well. These are two cards that are entirely useless without specific pieces- and that is never good. Garruk makes nissa look bad- and doesn't force you to run 4 subpar creatures to justify.
The Dredge.Dec
yes i know everyone loves graveyard manipulation. No, it WON't work.
and- if it ever DID work- jund charm/relic of prog/ravenous something or other. I'm sick of people playing this on mtgo already. It's like my time sieve nightmares. I love to wait for your 15 minutes turns only to kill you anyway.
Goblin guide: underwhelming to me still. I know it fills a curve slot nicely for red that otherwise is pretty mediorce, but i'd rather leave 1c in red to bolts/bursts/sprays/whatever and skip him for hellspark.
Ajani V: often turns into a 4 mana lighting helix. for 20 bucks. Awesome.
all the Ascentions: Not more then a couple times in 50+ games in the last few weeks have i lost to all these various pyromancers/buttcheek/luminarch nonsense. When you build your entire deck around a card, unless it's a brutal combo that goes off to win right there, it's bound for failure. time sieve was a vicious combo that once it went off, was almost always doom- the ascentions are too easy to remove or just stomp on through anyhow. You tried it- now cut it out.
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I would prefer a skill based format thats affordable and therefore INCLUSIVE to a money based one that EXCLUDES some people 100% of the time.
Wall of Denial: buys you time against the aggro decks, 2 of which are Decks to beat. Disagree, I just tested it yesterday because I thought the same as you and it sucked.
Deft Duelist: annoys aggro- double evasion
Tidehallow sculler: if they have no answer, he's information and disruption- if they have an answer- he's a removal magnet to drop before big threats.
Kor Skyfisher: strange when a 2/3 flyer for 1w isn't seeing play. His "drawback" is often a big bonus with any "CIP" themed critters like ruinblasters, BBelfs, gatekeepers, etc.
Day of judgement: for a card that got such huge pre-release hype, no decks of note are really packing it in a big way. A white mono is starting to see play and looks good. this might be going up soon.
Summoning trap:Brutal. The decks built around this are no more inconsistant then jund, and a trap into iona is game over 99% of the time. The deck gets to 6 mana in no time flat with ramp and harrow. Once again disagree. It causes you to focus your deck around something kind of underwhelming that just lets your opponent do what they want unanswered.
Chandra nalar:Eats a creature and comes back for more. Huge starting counters make it a pain in the ass. Still cheap to buy- and impacts well in what appears to be largely a mid-range meta. She's expensive for some bad abilities. Basically the only relevant ability is the second one, which will mean she ends up not having a lot of counters.
Overrated?
I think nissa and monument are WAY overrated- one win and then cards tripled in value- and don't break down well. These are two cards that are entirely useless without specific pieces- and that is never good. Garruk makes nissa look bad- and doesn't force you to run 4 subpar creatures to justify. Nissa's chosen are not subpar when you pump them out every turn and they get to 4/5, 5/6 from oran and archdruid.
The Dredge.Dec
yes i know everyone loves graveyard manipulation. No, it WON't work.
and- if it ever DID work- jund charm/relic of prog/ravenous something or other. I'm sick of people playing this on mtgo already. It's like my time sieve nightmares. I love to wait for your 15 minutes turns only to kill you anyway. People play dredge in standard!? If they do, I agree with you.
Goblin guide: underwhelming to me still. I know it fills a curve slot nicely for red that otherwise is pretty mediorce, but i'd rather leave 1c in red to bolts/bursts/sprays/whatever and skip him for hellspark. Yes! Very nice.
Ajani V: often turns into a 4 mana lighting helix. for 20 bucks. Awesome. First off he's not even close to 20 bucks. Second, he's amazing. I take it you've never played with him.
all the Ascentions: Not more then a couple times in 50+ games in the last few weeks have i lost to all these various pyromancers/buttcheek/luminarch nonsense. When you build your entire deck around a card, unless it's a brutal combo that goes off to win right there, it's bound for failure. time sieve was a vicious combo that once it went off, was almost always doom- the ascentions are too easy to remove or just stomp on through anyhow. You tried it- now cut it out. I agree, those are really bad.
Ones I didn't respond on I agree with, but nothing particularly exciting that needed commentary.
ive actually been using 2 ajani vs maindeck, in my various zoo attempts- to no avail. he's worth like 19 tickets in mtgo- and i have no idea why he's so hyped.
I tend to rate cards based on the cash value to effectiveness. In which case cards like baneslayer are fail to me, but broodmate dragon is made of win (2 4/4 flyers for a dollar! ) and johnnie v in that reguard feels underwhelming. i think i'll give garruks a shot in his place- as his ability to screw up a game with too many creatures ( we only have SO much removal) and 2 other really relevant abilities make him feel more like he changes the game state dramtically. But both of them are a beating for any control attempts.
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I would prefer a skill based format thats affordable and therefore INCLUSIVE to a money based one that EXCLUDES some people 100% of the time.
Did some deck tweaks last night when I saw the artifact at $2 in a local store. Amazing performance of this little bugger.
If blade of the bloodchief got the counters itself, it would be a different story. As it stands right now the card is unplayable in constructed and ok in limited.
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Quote from thundyr »
Jacerator is an aggro deck - it just wins by attacking the library, it doesn't really control the board other than to play a few Fogs
I seriously think that anyone who says walletslayer is overrated should have their head examined.
If the criteria of being "overrated" is a function of cost, then simple economics should disprove this. Any item is "worth" what the market will bear. Pure. Simple. Unargueable. People will pay 35-50 bucks for the card. Thus, regardless of it's relative utility, it is worth that.
If the criteria of being "overrated" is comparing one card to another with similiar characteristics, then the arguement falls flat again. Simply compare walletslayer with Serra Angel . Same CMC. Same color. Same creature type. And shares one pertinent ability, evasion. Baneslayer is clearly heads and shoulders above it's closest competitor. If I am missing a similiar 5 drop with comparable power in the current standard, please show me. First strike allows it to profitably block/attack into most threats. It sails past unmolested into Broodmate dragon, the only flyer in jund. Lifelink and evasion make unwinnable games winnable. This creature is power creep incarnate.
I am a jund player. I love jund. But I respect the power of the angel. So should you, or be prepared to lose against it.
If any card is overrated at the moment, I would say it is nocturnus. Yes, it has the potential to win games. But it lacks consistancy, and limits deck choice to optimize. A sub standard lord in my opinion.
I have a fully built vampire deck that I loan to friends and family for them to play FNM with. They love it, b/c it has cool goth vampires and fun flavor. It even has come close to winning before, with a fairly unskilled pilot. Would I ever trade it for jund? Not on my life.
P.S. I would, in fact, blindly obey all laws in Nazi Germany. If I didn't, I'd get shot. My life > My values, and many other people will say the same. Lrn2history, plix.
Overrated
1) Great Sable Stag - this is not an "if it sticks I win card." Every deck can answer it fairly effectively. Then in other matchups, it's an overcosted 3/3.
2) Realm Razer, Knight of the Reliquary - no matter how cool both of these seem, I just haven't seen a deck that really powers through with either of them. KotR shows up in some good WBG decks, but it's in there as a midrangey threat when the deck really wants to power into thornling or baneslayer angel.
3) Warp World.dec - the whole Ob nixilis, the fallen craze never made any sense to me whatsoever. Everyone locally is still all crazy about the card, but it's only good in warp world, and warp world just can't accelerate fast enough. Even if it can, too much of the ramp is creature based and everyone's got gobs of removal.
2) Identity Crisis & Mind Sludge - they might not win outright, but they're just nasty. It kills me to see many, many decks that should run them not even have a single copy of either in the 75.
I am playing an UWrb control deck and i find that actually haunting echoes is a better card the identity crisis based on the current meta. The current meta is extremely aggro based that many people dump cards out like crazy and once you can land either, haunting echoes will do more damage to them because it removes most of their threats you have either countered, wrathed or bolted.
If the meta would change, then it makes since to play identity crisis.
I am playing an UWrb control deck and i find that actually haunting echoes is a better card the identity crisis based on the current meta. The current meta is extremely aggro based that many people dump cards out like crazy and once you can land either, haunting echoes will do more damage to them because it removes most of their threats you have either countered, wrathed or bolted.
If the meta would change, then it makes since to play identity crisis.
Yeah, I should add in Haunting Echoes with those two as underrated for exactly the reasons you stated.
My shop is very control oriented, an aggro deck might do well maybe 1 time and then everyone adjusts - so the anti-control cards are still at a premium for me.
Overrated
1) Great Sable Stag - this is not an "if it sticks I win card." Every deck can answer it fairly effectively. Then in other matchups, it's an overcosted 3/3.
You know something is seriously effed when a 3/3 for 3 is overcosted.
A vanilla 3/3 for 1GGis pretty bad. It's not like Trained Armodon was ever tearing things up, even without bolt around.
Don't forget, this card destroys Vampires, holds Jund off unless they use Bolt, and walks right through Wall of Denial.
Great Sable Stag is not overrated. It was really strong at one time (vs. Fae and 5CC), but it still has some strength.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Not better, just spot removal that sends stuff to the GY. too much removal with drawbacks without having to splash for an extra color (compare terminate to Doom Blade).
I think Mind Rot is underrated. It's no Blightning but Standard is all about card advantage right now. Sign in Blood too. Just not out in the numbers I expected. I thought I would see Mind Rot, Blightning and Sign in Blood all in the same deck, truthfully.
I haven't seen anyone even try Sorin Markov yet. Which is surprising that people aren't at least tinkering with it.
Planar Cleansing is underrated. Not as a 4-of, obviously, but it should be seriously considered as a 2-of. There are many pesky enchantments, artifacts and planeswalkers running around and cleansing the board (while being a regular DoJ if they don't have any of this) is a pretty good option to have.
I've been running Planar Cleansing lately in my R/W midrange deck. Good card. Most people mistakenly compare it to DoJ, but the comparison is no good. The cards are entirely different and have much different results.
Underrated. Everyone clowns on this card as pure trash that is reliant on all your cards and is a terrible top deck. It is a terrible top deck, but it is a good one drop along side goblin guide. In my Gobbos I have been able to get around a turn 3 rhox turn 4 baneslayer for the win multiple times because I had quest activated. Its pretty powerful ability for red to have all that reach, yes it is conditional and a bad top draw-but turn 1 it is GREAT. Yet for some reason everyone just theorycrafts it as garbage without ever having playtested it.
Mold Adder is a card that I think may have some Sb applications for green decks since Jund and Vampires are so common, he can just drop down early on and build as they play spells and either draw removal or simply get big enough to be a threat later on. Combined with other self-growing threats like Scute Mob, everyone's favorite Elk, and things like that it could be annoying. However I don't think it really has a home, but who knows it could be a part of a new deck to combat other popular decks of the moment.
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Decks
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite) Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks) Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks) Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
It makes me sad that when someone suggests flameblast dragon as an answer to Baneslayer the only comment it gets that it might be too slow.
Yeah, um... yeah. I nearly wrote a whole paragraph agreeing that it's too slow, and how other cards are better. It's actually funny, because even if Baneslayer *didn't* have protection, it would be still too slow.
anything that doesnt do anything when it comes into play for RED is a garbage.
ON-TOPIC:
Planar Cleansing is actually good due to the sudden outburst of Eldrazi-type of decks.
exactly, it gets dismissed by netdeckers who never playtest cards that dont show up in protour lists, and yet QfPF wins situations RDW otherwise would scoop to.
Any White deck with a lot of creatures running this pisses people off. I actually had a guy the other week say to his friend, "Wait he's beating you with brave the elements?!"
Overrated: Baneslayer
Sure its a 5/5 for 5 with lots of stuff to boot, but path, terminate, Oblivion Ring, ect.ect. all say, "Sup" to Baneslayer.
all that stuff says "sup" to brave the elements. we can find a list of creatures in standard that say "sup" to that stuff by designating a standard format gatherer search with "creature" in the card type, and a "not" operator for "shroud" in the rules text filter.
+1 to brave the elements being under rated.
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Wall of Denial: buys you time against the aggro decks, 2 of which are Decks to beat.
Deft Duelist: annoys aggro- double evasion
Tidehallow sculler: if they have no answer, he's information and disruption- if they have an answer- he's a removal magnet to drop before big threats.
Kor Skyfisher: strange when a 2/3 flyer for 1w isn't seeing play. His "drawback" is often a big bonus with any "CIP" themed critters like ruinblasters, BBelfs, gatekeepers, etc.
Day of judgement: for a card that got such huge pre-release hype, no decks of note are really packing it in a big way. A white mono is starting to see play and looks good. this might be going up soon.
Summoning trap:Brutal. The decks built around this are no more inconsistant then jund, and a trap into iona is game over 99% of the time. The deck gets to 6 mana in no time flat with ramp and harrow.
Chandra nalar:Eats a creature and comes back for more. Huge starting counters make it a pain in the ass. Still cheap to buy- and impacts well in what appears to be largely a mid-range meta.
Overrated?
I think nissa and monument are WAY overrated- one win and then cards tripled in value- and don't break down well. These are two cards that are entirely useless without specific pieces- and that is never good. Garruk makes nissa look bad- and doesn't force you to run 4 subpar creatures to justify.
The Dredge.Dec
yes i know everyone loves graveyard manipulation. No, it WON't work.
and- if it ever DID work- jund charm/relic of prog/ravenous something or other. I'm sick of people playing this on mtgo already. It's like my time sieve nightmares. I love to wait for your 15 minutes turns only to kill you anyway.
Goblin guide: underwhelming to me still. I know it fills a curve slot nicely for red that otherwise is pretty mediorce, but i'd rather leave 1c in red to bolts/bursts/sprays/whatever and skip him for hellspark.
Ajani V: often turns into a 4 mana lighting helix. for 20 bucks. Awesome.
all the Ascentions: Not more then a couple times in 50+ games in the last few weeks have i lost to all these various pyromancers/buttcheek/luminarch nonsense. When you build your entire deck around a card, unless it's a brutal combo that goes off to win right there, it's bound for failure. time sieve was a vicious combo that once it went off, was almost always doom- the ascentions are too easy to remove or just stomp on through anyhow. You tried it- now cut it out.
Ones I didn't respond on I agree with, but nothing particularly exciting that needed commentary.
I tend to rate cards based on the cash value to effectiveness. In which case cards like baneslayer are fail to me, but broodmate dragon is made of win (2 4/4 flyers for a dollar! ) and johnnie v in that reguard feels underwhelming. i think i'll give garruks a shot in his place- as his ability to screw up a game with too many creatures ( we only have SO much removal) and 2 other really relevant abilities make him feel more like he changes the game state dramtically. But both of them are a beating for any control attempts.
If blade of the bloodchief got the counters itself, it would be a different story. As it stands right now the card is unplayable in constructed and ok in limited.
If the criteria of being "overrated" is a function of cost, then simple economics should disprove this. Any item is "worth" what the market will bear. Pure. Simple. Unargueable. People will pay 35-50 bucks for the card. Thus, regardless of it's relative utility, it is worth that.
If the criteria of being "overrated" is comparing one card to another with similiar characteristics, then the arguement falls flat again. Simply compare walletslayer with Serra Angel . Same CMC. Same color. Same creature type. And shares one pertinent ability, evasion. Baneslayer is clearly heads and shoulders above it's closest competitor. If I am missing a similiar 5 drop with comparable power in the current standard, please show me. First strike allows it to profitably block/attack into most threats. It sails past unmolested into Broodmate dragon, the only flyer in jund. Lifelink and evasion make unwinnable games winnable. This creature is power creep incarnate.
I am a jund player. I love jund. But I respect the power of the angel. So should you, or be prepared to lose against it.
If any card is overrated at the moment, I would say it is nocturnus. Yes, it has the potential to win games. But it lacks consistancy, and limits deck choice to optimize. A sub standard lord in my opinion.
I have a fully built vampire deck that I loan to friends and family for them to play FNM with. They love it, b/c it has cool goth vampires and fun flavor. It even has come close to winning before, with a fairly unskilled pilot. Would I ever trade it for jund? Not on my life.
Both Sphinx of Lost Truths and Sphinx of Jwar Isle are underappreciated by the vast majority of players.
As far as other cards.
Underrated
1) Ad Nauseam - really underplayed. I'm surprised I don't see it more in the Bloodchief Ascension / Pyromancer's Ascension decks.
2) Identity Crisis & Mind Sludge - they might not win outright, but they're just nasty. It kills me to see many, many decks that should run them not even have a single copy of either in the 75.
3) The Esper Beats Borderpost-Esper Stormblade-thopter foundry-Master of Etherium deck.
Overrated
1) Great Sable Stag - this is not an "if it sticks I win card." Every deck can answer it fairly effectively. Then in other matchups, it's an overcosted 3/3.
2) Realm Razer, Knight of the Reliquary - no matter how cool both of these seem, I just haven't seen a deck that really powers through with either of them. KotR shows up in some good WBG decks, but it's in there as a midrangey threat when the deck really wants to power into thornling or baneslayer angel.
3) Warp World.dec - the whole Ob nixilis, the fallen craze never made any sense to me whatsoever. Everyone locally is still all crazy about the card, but it's only good in warp world, and warp world just can't accelerate fast enough. Even if it can, too much of the ramp is creature based and everyone's got gobs of removal.
Trade/Sell me your Demonic Attorney!
I am playing an UWrb control deck and i find that actually haunting echoes is a better card the identity crisis based on the current meta. The current meta is extremely aggro based that many people dump cards out like crazy and once you can land either, haunting echoes will do more damage to them because it removes most of their threats you have either countered, wrathed or bolted.
If the meta would change, then it makes since to play identity crisis.
--me on the sig--
-- Trade Thread -- Buy List --
Yeah, I should add in Haunting Echoes with those two as underrated for exactly the reasons you stated.
My shop is very control oriented, an aggro deck might do well maybe 1 time and then everyone adjusts - so the anti-control cards are still at a premium for me.
Trade/Sell me your Demonic Attorney!
You know something is seriously effed when a 3/3 for 3 is overcosted.
A vanilla 3/3 for 1GG is pretty bad. It's not like Trained Armodon was ever tearing things up, even without bolt around.
BBBClan Mono BlackBBB
Sig and avatar made by Sgt_Chubbz
Don't forget, this card destroys Vampires, holds Jund off unless they use Bolt, and walks right through Wall of Denial.
Great Sable Stag is not overrated. It was really strong at one time (vs. Fae and 5CC), but it still has some strength.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Not better, just spot removal that sends stuff to the GY. too much removal with drawbacks without having to splash for an extra color (compare terminate to Doom Blade).
lol..
*Plays Terminate, Deathmark, and Doom Blade*
I'm scared....really.
Modern SkRed
Current Decks:
Pauper: UUDelver BlueUU
Oh, how witty. You must hate older formats.
I think Mind Rot is underrated. It's no Blightning but Standard is all about card advantage right now. Sign in Blood too. Just not out in the numbers I expected. I thought I would see Mind Rot, Blightning and Sign in Blood all in the same deck, truthfully.
I haven't seen anyone even try Sorin Markov yet. Which is surprising that people aren't at least tinkering with it.
Overrated I would go with Resounding Thunder.
--me on the sig--
-- Trade Thread -- Buy List --
I've been running Planar Cleansing lately in my R/W midrange deck. Good card. Most people mistakenly compare it to DoJ, but the comparison is no good. The cards are entirely different and have much different results.
Current decks:
Legacy: Zoo, Aggro Elves, The Gate, White Weenie, Red Deck Wins, and Merfolk. Currently building Solidarity.
Casual: Warp World Revolution and Old School Red-Green.
Standard: Ob-Nixilis Wave and Elves.
Underrated. Everyone clowns on this card as pure trash that is reliant on all your cards and is a terrible top deck. It is a terrible top deck, but it is a good one drop along side goblin guide. In my Gobbos I have been able to get around a turn 3 rhox turn 4 baneslayer for the win multiple times because I had quest activated. Its pretty powerful ability for red to have all that reach, yes it is conditional and a bad top draw-but turn 1 it is GREAT. Yet for some reason everyone just theorycrafts it as garbage without ever having playtested it.
ON-TOPIC:
Planar Cleansing is actually good due to the sudden outburst of Eldrazi-type of decks.
Currently Playing:
Type 2: RDW R
EDH: Wort the Raidmother R/
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite)
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks)
Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks)
Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
Standard
Waiting for Innistrad...
Extended
Hah!
Modern
Living End Cascade (RGB)
Legacy
Burn
Vintage
None
Casual
WB Aggro-Control
Green Stompy
Pink Floyd (UWr Wall Control)
Lunch Box (Fatty ramp)
D-Bag (White Control)
Level 13 Task Mage
Yeah, um... yeah. I nearly wrote a whole paragraph agreeing that it's too slow, and how other cards are better. It's actually funny, because even if Baneslayer *didn't* have protection, it would be still too slow.
My Cube Blog @theCubeMiser on Twitter
exactly, it gets dismissed by netdeckers who never playtest cards that dont show up in protour lists, and yet QfPF wins situations RDW otherwise would scoop to.
I hear ya, I love GSS. Just replying to the kneejerk "POWER CREEP" response above.
all that stuff says "sup" to brave the elements. we can find a list of creatures in standard that say "sup" to that stuff by designating a standard format gatherer search with "creature" in the card type, and a "not" operator for "shroud" in the rules text filter.
+1 to brave the elements being under rated.