So I was thinking about it for a bit and was wondering why everyone hates cancle. Dont get me wrong I would take 80% of all counters in existance over it I am just saying does it really lack a place in the current meta? picture a red blue deck with enough cheap and early spot removal to keep an early board clear and then cancle can control the mid- late game what does everyone think? I play them in my control sideboard as couter 5-7 ( double negative goes in before it)
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Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
People hate Cancle because Counterspell is obviously so much better. The fact that you are unable to run any other spells to absolutely counter anything by turn 2 hurts control decks.
Cancel is bad because all of the decks that would run it would benefit most from it costing one less, thus becoming the loved Counterspell of old. Until that happens Cancel won't be played in competitive standard (or any other format for that matter).
Anyway cancel would've been fine in the non-aggro metagames of old that were already blue dominated. Faerie Trickery and Dissipate were hardly any better yet saw play. With creatures hitting so hard and fast right now though it's useless.
Anyway cancel would've been fine in the non-aggro metagames of old that were already blue dominated. Faerie Trickery and Dissipate were hardly any better yet saw play. With creatures hitting so hard and fast right now though it's useless.
Trickery and Dissipate at least stop recursion, or some sort of graveyard interaction. It does a little something extra, even if it isnt very important, its something. Something that Cancel doesnt have, which makes it strictly inferior.
And its not like Trickery and Dissipate were the 1st choices when it came to counters anyway.
So if youre strictly inferior to the B squad, youre just not gonna see play, you stay on the bench, and you get the assistant coach gatorade and a wet nap.
Anyway cancel would've been fine in the non-aggro metagames of old that were already blue dominated. Faerie Trickery and Dissipate were hardly any better yet saw play. With creatures hitting so hard and fast right now though it's useless.
They saw play alongside Rune Snag and Counterspell+force spike+dismiss respectively.
Three cost counters that are printed in slow, controlling meta's like TSP-LRW are more than playable, or when there are other strong, 1-2cc counters, or when they can just lock someone out of a game like forbid.
Because a 3 mana counterspell isn't good enough when all the best threats in the format come out at 3 or less mana. It's much better in this format to simply play a good creature and force your opponent to answer it than holding back a bunch of pointless counter mana and getting stomped over anyway.
Cancel costs too little mana - it should really be 1UUU (kidding... obviously). The days of a 2 mana "counter any spell" are over... and there's good reason... but people will hate on it simply because, in their mind, control should always play the role it played in the early days of Magic.
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I view Counterspell as having an impact on most Standard formats akin to what reprinting Hymn to Tourach would have. Imagine both Hymn and Blightning in the same format, you might groan, but realize for many players that's what it's like when Counterspell teams up with some other other power-counter. Wizards was sitting around making that happen every Standard block, and now they've simply changed how counter operates, and how long it takes for a serious control deck to emerge within a block.
Cancel isn't that bad really. It's the same as double negative 80-90% of the time (with an easier casting cost), and better than Mindbreak Trap in most situations. It's on the edge of playability. It's not great, but it's definitely not as terrible as it's made out to be.
Most of the vitriol aimed at Cancel is purely based on "what things were" and not actually a reasoned look at the card itself.
Cancel isn't that bad really. It's the same as double negative 80-90% of the time (with an easier casting cost), and better than Mindbreak Trap in most situations. It's on the edge of playability. It's not great, but it's definitely not as terrible as it's made out to be.
Most of the vitriol aimed at Cancel is purely based on "what things were" and not actually a reasoned look at the card itself.
This.
Also, it does seem as though the few control decks of late are leaning toward planewalkers planewalkers planewalkers.
I wonder if WotC are planning to make them the basis of control from now on?
Recent discussions here and elsewhere have made it clear that there seems to be a group of players who consider blue and control synonymous, as if they somehow started playing a game with four identical and "bad" colors that do nothing interesting because they just "turn men sideways" and then true, glorious blue, the only thinking person's color.
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Cancel costs too little mana - it should really be 1UUU (kidding... obviously). The days of a 2 mana "counter any spell" are over... and there's good reason... but people will hate on it simply because, in their mind, control should always play the role it played in the early days of Magic.
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I view Counterspell as having an impact on most Standard formats akin to what reprinting Hymn to Tourach would have. Imagine both Hymn and Blightning in the same format, you might groan, but realize for many players that's what it's like when Counterspell teams up with some other other power-counter. Wizards was sitting around making that happen every Standard block, and now they've simply changed how counter operates, and how long it takes for a serious control deck to emerge within a block.
Right but what power-counters are there? I shudder everytime I think about making a control deck because to do that I would have to run at least 3-4 different counter spells. Then you run into the problem of having Negate in hand when you really need an Essence Scatter or vice-versa. I don't think you can even compare having Hymn to Tourach and Blightning since both of those cards deny you multiple things whereas a single counter spell only denies you 1 play.
On that note, what do people think of Lapse of Certainty? It seems to be a very undervalued counter, or do people just view it as worse then Cancel? I haven't heard this card really talked about ever.
On that note, what do people think of Lapse of Certainty? It seems to be a very undervalued counter, or do people just view it as worse then Cancel? I haven't heard this card really talked about ever.
Lapse of Certainty can be very very good in the right aggro deck in certain MU.
Recent discussions here and elsewhere have made it clear that there seems to be a group of players who consider blue and control synonymous, as if they somehow started playing a game with four identical and "bad" colors that do nothing interesting because they just "turn men sideways" and then true, glorious blue, the only thinking person's color.
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Cancel is completely unplayable on the draw. On the play, it's slow but not too bad. I'd rather have removal or spell pierce in hand early. It needs to do something else for 1UU- maybe filter 1.
Cancel isn't that bad really. It's the same as double negative 80-90% of the time (with an easier casting cost), and better than Mindbreak Trap in most situations. It's on the edge of playability. It's not great, but it's definitely not as terrible as it's made out to be.
Most of the vitriol aimed at Cancel is purely based on "what things were" and not actually a reasoned look at the card itself.
sorry but this is so very wrong. I have only been playing since alara block, that means for the duration of my time playing magic cancel has been the main counterspell wizards has printed. and it sucks. I tried using it when i first started playing (always preferred control decks) but it just didn't work. the fact that countering a card cost the same as blightning or rhox war monk is just ridiculous.
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Things that will kill magic, according to mtgs:
power nine,reserved list,snow lands,rules changes,planeswalkers,auras,legends,mythics,rares, counterspell,tarmogoyf,cascade,affinity,equipment, noobs,powergamers, mods, net-deckers,fnm,the dci,wotc,negate,psychatog,dredge,bloodbraid elf,people flicking their cards,fairies,cryptic command,dark ritual,eldrazi,path to exile,new formats,new products,yu-gi-oh,baneslayer angel,lotus cobra,core sets,and Mark Rosewater,especially Mark Rosewater.
i cant believe people are saying cancel is viable i played control and it just stinks. With the power shift clearly to aggro jund etc. Control needs to be sped up the only way i think they can do this is reprint counterspell... wotc do us blue players a favor and reprint the dam card...
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My Current Decks
Standard
Turbo Flare
Green Blue Eldrazi
Blue White Control
Its really sad to see that is the only deck color where you can't play Mono
Soldier Primer
Sig by ol MISAKA lo
My Trades
:symw::symu::symg:Sovereign Mythic (8-4-0)
:symw::symu:Mythic Bant (20-10-0)
:symr::symb::symg: Jund
:symw::symr::symg:Where Ancients Suck
I lol'd XD.
Seriously though, more threats are able to appear on turn 2/3 which makes the need for a turn 2 counterspell which counters anything much higher.
Example:
T0-P1: Island go.
T1-P2: Forest, Noble Hierarch, go.
T2-P1: Island go.
T3-P2: Island/Plains, Rhox War Monk.
T3-P1: Counterspell.
T3-P2: ...End my turn.
Also I wish boomerang was T2 again... then if you aren't on the play you just bounce the pancake chef back to it's owner.
Forbid
Anyway cancel would've been fine in the non-aggro metagames of old that were already blue dominated. Faerie Trickery and Dissipate were hardly any better yet saw play. With creatures hitting so hard and fast right now though it's useless.
You can still do this.. with Flashfreeze.
Trickery and Dissipate at least stop recursion, or some sort of graveyard interaction. It does a little something extra, even if it isnt very important, its something. Something that Cancel doesnt have, which makes it strictly inferior.
And its not like Trickery and Dissipate were the 1st choices when it came to counters anyway.
So if youre strictly inferior to the B squad, youre just not gonna see play, you stay on the bench, and you get the assistant coach gatorade and a wet nap.
Answer your question?
They saw play alongside Rune Snag and Counterspell+force spike+dismiss respectively.
Three cost counters that are printed in slow, controlling meta's like TSP-LRW are more than playable, or when there are other strong, 1-2cc counters, or when they can just lock someone out of a game like forbid.
Look at T2, it's zoo zoo zoo zoo zoo.
The only control decks run spot removal and walkers. (With some sweepers which is control like)
Now, I'm not alone.
I think you mean: Jund Jund Jund Jund Jund Jund
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I view Counterspell as having an impact on most Standard formats akin to what reprinting Hymn to Tourach would have. Imagine both Hymn and Blightning in the same format, you might groan, but realize for many players that's what it's like when Counterspell teams up with some other other power-counter. Wizards was sitting around making that happen every Standard block, and now they've simply changed how counter operates, and how long it takes for a serious control deck to emerge within a block.
Spike School
Spike doesn't think. Spike doesn't feel. Spike doesn't laugh or cry. All Spike does from dusk till dawn is make the Johnnys die
Most of the vitriol aimed at Cancel is purely based on "what things were" and not actually a reasoned look at the card itself.
This.
Also, it does seem as though the few control decks of late are leaning toward planewalkers planewalkers planewalkers.
I wonder if WotC are planning to make them the basis of control from now on?
http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20801.jpg
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Right but what power-counters are there? I shudder everytime I think about making a control deck because to do that I would have to run at least 3-4 different counter spells. Then you run into the problem of having Negate in hand when you really need an Essence Scatter or vice-versa. I don't think you can even compare having Hymn to Tourach and Blightning since both of those cards deny you multiple things whereas a single counter spell only denies you 1 play.
Lapse of Certainty can be very very good in the right aggro deck in certain MU.
http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20801.jpg
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
sorry but this is so very wrong. I have only been playing since alara block, that means for the duration of my time playing magic cancel has been the main counterspell wizards has printed. and it sucks. I tried using it when i first started playing (always preferred control decks) but it just didn't work. the fact that countering a card cost the same as blightning or rhox war monk is just ridiculous.
power nine,reserved list,snow lands,rules changes,planeswalkers,auras,legends,mythics,rares,
counterspell,tarmogoyf,cascade,affinity,equipment,
noobs,powergamers, mods,
net-deckers,fnm,the dci,wotc,negate,psychatog,dredge,bloodbraid elf,people flicking their cards,fairies,cryptic command,dark ritual,eldrazi,path to exile,new formats,new products,yu-gi-oh,baneslayer angel,lotus cobra,core sets,and Mark Rosewater,especially Mark Rosewater.
Green Blue Eldrazi
Blue White Control