Ok I'll throw it out there since no one else seems to be questioning it so far. This archetype is one of the decks I am considering playing for Nationals.
Sygg seems pretty weak in comparison to a lot of other cards in the format. I understand why he is there:
1. He mucks up the board as a difficult-to-remove early drop.
2. He nets you a card whenever one of your attackers manages to connect.
So in looking at that I guess he's not terrible. But is he really that good? He seems to clash with the aggro strategy by not being much of a threat himself, and occassionally the fact that he is Legendary is going to make him a blank if you hit him with your cascade and you already have one in play. I can't really think of any other real negatives, but I think they weigh in equally with the underwhelming positives. What is he getting you that is so much better than Mulldrifter or Esper Charm?
I guess what I am concerned about is that if the deck needs a card like Sygg to compensate for a perceived weakness, does that mean its time to perhaps start looking at some of the better, more-focused decks out there?
Ok I'll throw it out there since no one else seems to be questioning it so far. This archetype is one of the decks I am considering playing for Nationals.
Sygg seems pretty weak in comparison to a lot of other cards in the format. I understand why he is there:
1. He mucks up the board as a difficult-to-remove early drop.
2. He nets you a card whenever one of your attackers manages to connect.
So in looking at that I guess he's not terrible. But is he really that good? He seems to clash with the aggro strategy by not being much of a threat himself, and occassionally the fact that he is Legendary is going to make him a blank if you hit him with your cascade and you already have one in play. I can't really think of any other real negatives, but I think they weigh in equally with the underwhelming positives. What is he getting you that is so much better than Mulldrifter or Esper Charm?
I guess what I am concerned about is that if the deck needs a card like Sygg to compensate for a perceived weakness, does that mean its time to perhaps start looking at some of the better, more-focused decks out there?
I have been running Mind Stone, and am considering pulling it for him. Card draw is great.
I wouldn't run him if I was running blue. That isn't the point.
If you aren't running blue, sygg is sweet.
If you are, you have better choices.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
Chapin gives a pretty decent explanation for Sygg in his starcitygames.com article.
I'm going to say that the new Doran deck is the right evolution for Doran decks; less mana dorks more awesome creatures. It's close to midrange but I'd still classify it as aggro, especially considering Qasali Pridemage and Knotvine Paladin.
I played a Grixis Control, Jund Ramp (lost one due to land screw), Mill deck, and Escort-Elves (lost the 1st game due to a typical swarm)
It ran good all night the Cryptics were huge for me. It may have been too cause I been trying the Jund (Agg-Con Mid-range) version of this and it has not done well for me so I switched it to a closer version of the 5-color Blood and it fit me perfectly.
This list gives me a better chance vs Chameleon Colossus which is around more than I'd like.
I like what you have come up with using those changes you've decided on. For my taste, I would run Colossus over Broodmate though. Bituminous Blasting into Cham. Colossus is very nice. Also, I like the choice of Double Negative in the SB with it's applications on Cascade decks such as us and Swans. Tell us how that works for you.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Chainsawromeo for the sig.
StandardJUND AGGRO Standard :symb::symr: B/R Aggro :symb::symr:
well after seeing the sickness of sygg in 5CB i decided to try it in my jund aggro deck and sure enough it was insane. my deck is basically the same as mike jacob's 5cb from gp seattle minus the cryptics and the cruel in place of magma sprays and colossus and only 25 lands. the only problem so far in testing is that the mana base is completely wrong and im not exactly sure how to fix it.
4 treetop village
4 reflecting pool
4 twilight mire
3 fire-lit thicket
1 graven carins
2 mountains
2 swamps
1 forest
4 savage lands
the reason i choose to try this is that i thought the mana base would be more stable than that of the 5 color version but that has not been the case so far, does anyone have any suggestions on how the remedy this problem.
well after seeing the sickness of sygg in 5CB i decided to try it in my jund aggro deck and sure enough it was insane. my deck is basically the same as mike jacob's 5cb from gp seattle minus the cryptics and the cruel in place of magma sprays and colossus and only 25 lands. the only problem so far in testing is that the mana base is completely wrong and im not exactly sure how to fix it.
4 treetop village
4 reflecting pool
4 twilight mire
3 fire-lit thicket
1 graven carins
2 mountains
2 swamps
1 forest
4 savage lands
the reason i choose to try this is that i thought the mana base would be more stable than that of the 5 color version but that has not been the case so far, does anyone have any suggestions on how the remedy this problem.
well after seeing the sickness of sygg in 5CB i decided to try it in my jund aggro deck and sure enough it was insane. my deck is basically the same as mike jacob's 5cb from gp seattle minus the cryptics and the cruel in place of magma sprays and colossus and only 25 lands. the only problem so far in testing is that the mana base is completely wrong and im not exactly sure how to fix it.
4 treetop village
4 reflecting pool
4 twilight mire
3 fire-lit thicket
1 graven carins
2 mountains
2 swamps
1 forest
4 savage lands
the reason i choose to try this is that i thought the mana base would be more stable than that of the 5 color version but that has not been the case so far, does anyone have any suggestions on how the remedy this problem.
Auntie's Hovel? Early game you probably will have either a Ram-Gang or Colossus in hand if you want to play it untapped. Same thing with Gilt-Leaf Palace and Bloodbraid Elf
Otherwise, cut a Treetop Village for another Graven Cairns and 1 Swamp for another Fire-Lit Thicket. That should help a little, since Treetop can sometimes cost you valuable mana slots.
dryad isn't good right now, theres too much hard removal in the format. also its too slow for the format right now which is trying to get your deck as quick as possible, just look at the control decks. 5CB is the closest thing to a control deck other then fae. Besides sygg is card draw in an aggro which is busted.
No that's definitely wrong. I just tested for 4 hours with a friend, and Sygg is crazy crazy good. You draw cards very very consistently. For this deck a source of card advantage is really key, since if you don't draw a cascade card you run out of gas fast.
First of all, Congrats!! 350 players is insane to grab first through. Btw, did you use the same Ari Lax build that is in the first post of this thread that Shin made? With so many variations to this build and changes made by Chapin and others, I am making sure Ari didn't have more than 1 alteration of his build as well. Thanks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Chainsawromeo for the sig.
StandardJUND AGGRO Standard :symb::symr: B/R Aggro :symb::symr:
I used Aris build in his article on Regionals, swapping out the Thresher for a second Cruel as well as changing the sideboard.
I tried to change the deck, but I couldn't alter anything to really make it better. Couldn't take out sweepers, they wrecked everything... couldn't take out finks, they win games. Couldn't take out leech, he's pretty much ridiculous... love me some cruels...
Didn't think of Sygg, though. He seems amazing.
Also, I only lost two games the whole tournament. One in the finals (Fae godhand) and another in the early rounds against a WB Tokens I tried to race (I have no problem racing WB tokens), then all the sudden he played Vivid Meadow and hit me for 14 with double Anathemancer.
PS: Why the heck is Austin Extended? I don't play Extended. Ahhhh, time to test test test...
This is the deck that I was thinking to my PTQ up in Hartford, CT. I'm relatively knew to the whole competitive scene however, I feel confident in this deck, and got the basis of the deck from these forums :D. So without further ado here is the deck that I am currently running. Please tell me what you think of it as well as what you would do differently with it.
Now I know that running Reflecting Pools and Cryptic Commands are almost a must however, lack of funds is really preventing that at the moment. I also do like both Sarkhan and Lorescale in this deck because Sarkhan is giving my guys haste, and can be cascaded out with BBlast, as well as produce 5 4/4 dragons, which is great aggro. I also like Lorescale because he's a pretty big threat once he hits play, as he'll be swinging for a minimum of 3 the turn he swings.
The sideboard I know looks like a mess, and I think this is where I need the most improvements. I was looking for answers for the most common decks played (Fae, 5CC, B/W or G/W Tokens, etc..) as I'm not exactly sure what to expect for Hartford's metagame... Thanks in advance.
This is the deck that I was thinking to my PTQ up in Hartford, CT. I'm relatively knew to the whole competitive scene however, I feel confident in this deck, and got the basis of the deck from these forums :D. So without further ado here is the deck that I am currently running. Please tell me what you think of it as well as what you would do differently with it.
Now I know that running Reflecting Pools and Cryptic Commands are almost a must however, lack of funds is really preventing that at the moment. I also do like both Sarkhan and Lorescale in this deck because Sarkhan is giving my guys haste, and can be cascaded out with BBlast, as well as produce 5 4/4 dragons, which is great aggro. I also like Lorescale because he's a pretty big threat once he hits play, as he'll be swinging for a minimum of 3 the turn he swings.
The sideboard I know looks like a mess, and I think this is where I need the most improvements. I was looking for answers for the most common decks played (Fae, 5CC, B/W or G/W Tokens, etc..) as I'm not exactly sure what to expect for Hartford's metagame... Thanks in advance.
Game 2 - He's at 12 and I am at 16. He uses some card I forget the name right now, but it's like thoughtseize where he sees my hand and discards a card. He discards Wheel of Sun and Moon for me. I cringe a bit but then he sees the 9 damage I had in puncture blasts along with a naya charm to get back my Wheel of Sun and Moon sitting in my hand and just scoops.
Game 3 - I get down Runed Halo naming Jace Beleren and Wheel of Sun and Moon as he was tapping out to Fog me from putrid leeching him. I maelstrom pulse 2 Fonts to slow the game down. Next turn he taps for Tezzerate and Jace Beleren(guess he wanted to get me to draw cards still ? lol?). He passes turn tapped out and I thought hemmorhage naming Cryptic Command. Though he did not have it in hand, he knew that his win conditions were almost gone as he was only going to Mill himself to death now that he can't bounce my wheel of sun and moon since I RFG'd his Cryptics. He asks me if he can check his deck to see if he sided out oblivion ring or not and if he did he said he'd concede because he didnt have any win conditions left really. Well, in the thought hemmorhage I noticed he didn't have any O'Rings in the deck so I knew the answer was no and said "Sure that's fine man." He concedes.
Game 2 - I have a no land hand, then a 1 land hand, mull to 5 and am stuck on 2 mana 1 of which being a pain land and get murdered.
Game 3 - I shuffle like a mad man and repeat my onslaught of Captured Sunlights and Bloodbraids into Finks and Maelstrom Pulses to keep him on lock down. I win in a long game where we were both in topdeck mode. I beat him with 15 life left when it's all said and done. 2 EOT Puncture Blasts really helped me with applying pressure in this matchup.
Win 2-1
Round 4 Finest Hour Bant(one of my tougher matchups honestly)
Game 1 - I maelstrom Pulse his 3 Noble Heirarchs(yes 3 lol) and he gets mana screwed. Easiest win ever against bant for me.
I also do like this list over cryptic and cruel. I like the the options with naya charm and that fact i will not cascade any mass removal with a sunlight or blood elf. I like the instant speed blast which can hit into a wrath or 1 of 8 cascade cards. I also like naya charming the blast to my hand. I play tested with this list a lot. I swapped finks/few bulky cards n wrath for the fallout/jundcharm and ramgang/river syg approach. I like the wrath better and with the 11 cascade cards i think the syg is not needed. I always have at least 2-3 cascade in hand by turn 4, for reference. I also like gaining 10+ life to fight swans, also with a little fight with runed halo tricks. The worst cascade is a leech or runed halo, which i think the deck is well built.
the problem with this deck is that it doesnt know what it wants to do
The problem with this post is that it adds nothing to the thread.
More likely, the problem is actually you don't know what to do with the deck in a given scenario. Most of the cards in the deck can play both aggro and control equally well, giving you the ability to choose between many game plans at any point based on your opponent's deck and plays. The new Sygg version makes the deck a bit easier to play by making you the definite aggro in a lot more scenarios, but even then you have to carefully evaluate each combat and Leech pump, especially in the Tokens (WB and WG) and mirror matches.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone
To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
The white deck with runed halo and wrath of gods is simply too mana intensive unless your opponent is playing white. That turns the 2 exotic orchards online, but this is just too much of a stretch.
Rather strange coming from someone who enjoys drawing cards.
I put him in as a 3 of. Not 4, because my 4 2 slot is putrid leech, and I'd rather see him more often than the sygg. Though turn 3 sygg after a leech is really good. Four damage and a card for just 2 mana is always nice
I also added cruel to my list as a 2-of, and I love it honestly. Tested cryptics but dropped them, since I felt they're really counter productive. I also dropped the naya charms, because I almost never lethal alpha-strike any more. I always deal the last points with anathemancer / cruel, so tapping out really is rarely necessary now.
What I did though was add wraths main instead of jund charms, as tokens are rarely 2/2. For when they're 2/2, I've got pyroclasm
lol yea, i just feel like u have to play different to utilize him and a 1/3 blows. im just going to continue testing with him, but as of now he just doesnt do it for me
Yeah, the play style changes somewhat, but I've been consistently drawing turn 3 and turn 4 (turn 4 anathemancer / attacking bloodbraid elf / both if cascade likes you), and a 1/3 body that draws 2 cards for 2 mana is already good enough.
And hitting it with a Jund Charm is pretty sweet too(though I know you don't run it Faerie Lord, many do). A 3/5 body with card draw is something to be reckoned with. I agree with 2 Cruel Ultimatums, because we have the mana base, and we might as well kill somebody with it. Aside from that Sygg makes Cruel Ultimatum a little bit better, as if Cruel needed to be any better.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Sygg seems pretty weak in comparison to a lot of other cards in the format. I understand why he is there:
1. He mucks up the board as a difficult-to-remove early drop.
2. He nets you a card whenever one of your attackers manages to connect.
So in looking at that I guess he's not terrible. But is he really that good? He seems to clash with the aggro strategy by not being much of a threat himself, and occassionally the fact that he is Legendary is going to make him a blank if you hit him with your cascade and you already have one in play. I can't really think of any other real negatives, but I think they weigh in equally with the underwhelming positives. What is he getting you that is so much better than Mulldrifter or Esper Charm?
I guess what I am concerned about is that if the deck needs a card like Sygg to compensate for a perceived weakness, does that mean its time to perhaps start looking at some of the better, more-focused decks out there?
I have been running Mind Stone, and am considering pulling it for him. Card draw is great.
I wouldn't run him if I was running blue. That isn't the point.
If you aren't running blue, sygg is sweet.
If you are, you have better choices.
Twitter
I'm going to say that the new Doran deck is the right evolution for Doran decks; less mana dorks more awesome creatures. It's close to midrange but I'd still classify it as aggro, especially considering Qasali Pridemage and Knotvine Paladin.
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
I played a Grixis Control, Jund Ramp (lost one due to land screw), Mill deck, and Escort-Elves (lost the 1st game due to a typical swarm)
It ran good all night the Cryptics were huge for me. It may have been too cause I been trying the Jund (Agg-Con Mid-range) version of this and it has not done well for me so I switched it to a closer version of the 5-color Blood and it fit me perfectly.
This list gives me a better chance vs Chameleon Colossus which is around more than I'd like.
Some changes I may think about are..
-0-1 Broodmate Dragon
-1 Mulldrifter
-1 Cruel Ultimatum
+1-2 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Bituminous Blast
SB:
-1-2 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Identity Crisis
+0-1 Thought Hemorrhage
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
I like what you have come up with using those changes you've decided on. For my taste, I would run Colossus over Broodmate though. Bituminous Blasting into Cham. Colossus is very nice. Also, I like the choice of Double Negative in the SB with it's applications on Cascade decks such as us and Swans. Tell us how that works for you.
Thanks to Chainsawromeo for the sig.
Standard JUND AGGRO Standard
:symb::symr: B/R Aggro :symb::symr:
4 anathemancer
4 bloodbraid elf
4 boggart ram-gang
4 putrid leech
2 bituminous blast
1 jund charm
3 volcanic fallout
3 sygg, river cutthroat
4 maelstrom pulse
2 cameleon colossus
4 magma spray
4 treetop village
4 reflecting pool
4 twilight mire
3 fire-lit thicket
1 graven carins
2 mountains
2 swamps
1 forest
4 savage lands
the reason i choose to try this is that i thought the mana base would be more stable than that of the 5 color version but that has not been the case so far, does anyone have any suggestions on how the remedy this problem.
Go back to playing Cryptics and Cruel?
Auntie's Hovel? Early game you probably will have either a Ram-Gang or Colossus in hand if you want to play it untapped. Same thing with Gilt-Leaf Palace and Bloodbraid Elf
Otherwise, cut a Treetop Village for another Graven Cairns and 1 Swamp for another Fire-Lit Thicket. That should help a little, since Treetop can sometimes cost you valuable mana slots.
No that's definitely wrong. I just tested for 4 hours with a friend, and Sygg is crazy crazy good. You draw cards very very consistently. For this deck a source of card advantage is really key, since if you don't draw a cascade card you run out of gas fast.
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
Pretty much trampled every single opponent with ease minus one (Elves), went undefeated over 12 rounds.
Oh, did I mention it was 350 freakin' players? I'd also like to say Putrid Leech is the best card in the deck.
High: Total: 2019 - Limited: 1917 Constructed: 1951
Vince[isg0d]'s Trading Post - Vince[isg0d]'s Buy List
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
The pros forgot to mention Sygg was good until I had registered my deck.
High: Total: 2019 - Limited: 1917 Constructed: 1951
Vince[isg0d]'s Trading Post - Vince[isg0d]'s Buy List
Thanks to Chainsawromeo for the sig.
Standard JUND AGGRO Standard
:symb::symr: B/R Aggro :symb::symr:
I tried to change the deck, but I couldn't alter anything to really make it better. Couldn't take out sweepers, they wrecked everything... couldn't take out finks, they win games. Couldn't take out leech, he's pretty much ridiculous... love me some cruels...
Didn't think of Sygg, though. He seems amazing.
Also, I only lost two games the whole tournament. One in the finals (Fae godhand) and another in the early rounds against a WB Tokens I tried to race (I have no problem racing WB tokens), then all the sudden he played Vivid Meadow and hit me for 14 with double Anathemancer.
PS: Why the heck is Austin Extended? I don't play Extended. Ahhhh, time to test test test...
High: Total: 2019 - Limited: 1917 Constructed: 1951
Vince[isg0d]'s Trading Post - Vince[isg0d]'s Buy List
1 Cascade Bluffs
3 Vivid Creek
4 Vivid Grove
3 Vivid Crag
4 Vivid Marsh
2 Exotic Orchard
3 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Swamp
Creatures
4 Putrid Leech
3 Anathemancer
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Lorescale Coatl
4 Mulldrifter
4 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Blightning
1 Lavalanche
Instants
3 Bituminous Blast
3 Colossal Might
Planeswalkers
3 Sarkhan Vol
3 Mage Slayer
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
2 Lavalanche
4 Volcanic Fallout
3 Guttural Response
2 Vithian Renegades
Now I know that running Reflecting Pools and Cryptic Commands are almost a must however, lack of funds is really preventing that at the moment. I also do like both Sarkhan and Lorescale in this deck because Sarkhan is giving my guys haste, and can be cascaded out with BBlast, as well as produce 5 4/4 dragons, which is great aggro. I also like Lorescale because he's a pretty big threat once he hits play, as he'll be swinging for a minimum of 3 the turn he swings.
The sideboard I know looks like a mess, and I think this is where I need the most improvements. I was looking for answers for the most common decks played (Fae, 5CC, B/W or G/W Tokens, etc..) as I'm not exactly sure what to expect for Hartford's metagame... Thanks in advance.
The problem with this post is that it adds nothing to the thread.
Cascading into a Lavalanche is just not much fun... I'd use Pyroclasm or Volcanic Fallout in it's place.
I like the inclusion of the Coatl but is it maybe a "win more"? It kinda has that feel to it..I haven't played it, but i get that feeling.
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
I also do like this list over cryptic and cruel. I like the the options with naya charm and that fact i will not cascade any mass removal with a sunlight or blood elf. I like the instant speed blast which can hit into a wrath or 1 of 8 cascade cards. I also like naya charming the blast to my hand. I play tested with this list a lot. I swapped finks/few bulky cards n wrath for the fallout/jundcharm and ramgang/river syg approach. I like the wrath better and with the 11 cascade cards i think the syg is not needed. I always have at least 2-3 cascade in hand by turn 4, for reference. I also like gaining 10+ life to fight swans, also with a little fight with runed halo tricks. The worst cascade is a leech or runed halo, which i think the deck is well built.
More likely, the problem is actually you don't know what to do with the deck in a given scenario. Most of the cards in the deck can play both aggro and control equally well, giving you the ability to choose between many game plans at any point based on your opponent's deck and plays. The new Sygg version makes the deck a bit easier to play by making you the definite aggro in a lot more scenarios, but even then you have to carefully evaluate each combat and Leech pump, especially in the Tokens (WB and WG) and mirror matches.
I played a kid who ran it MD and he managed to cascade into it twice within one match...
Turning Bloodbraid into a 4 mana 3/2 haste just isn't that good.
lol yea, i just feel like u have to play different to utilize him and a 1/3 blows. im just going to continue testing with him, but as of now he just doesnt do it for me
And hitting it with a Jund Charm is pretty sweet too(though I know you don't run it Faerie Lord, many do). A 3/5 body with card draw is something to be reckoned with. I agree with 2 Cruel Ultimatums, because we have the mana base, and we might as well kill somebody with it. Aside from that Sygg makes Cruel Ultimatum a little bit better, as if Cruel needed to be any better.