From my own experience with Vamps ever since M10 came out... MonoBlack might be the most consistent, but has too many holes that it can't fill. I got crushed by Great Sable Stag and/or Stillmoon Cavalier.
RB Vamps can take care of just about any threat out there... only problem is having to run mono-red cards like Dark Temper, Lightning Bolt or Earthquake.
WB Vamp Bonds I am not familiar with... although there would be some interesting cards to have access to like Harm's Way, Path and Lifelink.
You actually run Banefire in this deck?
I'm running BR and I maindeck Terminate in case I run into black creatures plus it's very good removal. In the sideboard I have Dark Temper, Earthquake and Anathemancer. I definitely run a more aggro version I think...
Hmmm... this is an interesting approach. It's still basically aggro with a slight control aspect, but if I had the choice of playing Sleep or another Nocturnus... I'm going with Nocturnus and beating you down. Agony Warp is nice, but can't do anything against a Stag or get rid of a Baneslayer.
Vampires just don't seem very sneaky.... they beat you to the ground with full force.
Things like Anathemancer are part of the reason why I don't want to seperate B from R anymore. They have just have so much utility that I think it would be a crime to alienate any of them.
As for it being less consistent, you are definitely right. However, there are many ways now to "control" Nocturnus effect. Sign in Blood is obviously an option and by dropping Tendrils of Corruption, you no longer have to be entirely dedicated to so many Swamps, which opens the doors to things like Fetch Lands or even Terramorphic Expanse to allow you a means of controlling exactly what sits at the top of your Deck at a given time.
Essentially, I think if BR has more advantages to it and merely requires us to play a spell we were already playing from the start, on top of Fetchlands or something like Expanse (to which even Expanse isn't a bad thing considering the fact that this deck's mana curve completely ends at 4CC, meaning any more land beyond 4 will be excessive); then there simply is no reason to turn to a more easier stopped approach in MonoBlack.
Also, for people who keep suggesting things like the Borderposts, I'm not so certain I see a point in playing a card that requires you to slow down the Aggro part of this deck when I think something like the Fetch Lands or even Expanse are going to be much better at achieving the goal that you are looking for. Sure, the Borderposts do add more mana producers into the deck that have black in their costs. However, Fetch Lands essentially do the samething by coming down and taking a Land out of your deck, leaving more and more black cards in it. I think the Borderposts are a decent way of trying to help control Nocturnus effect, but I think any form of Fetch Land (even Expanse), will ultimately be the best route to take for that. The only benefit I see to Borderposts is that they let you bounce a land back to your hand, allowing you to activate Land Fall again but even the Fetches are just as good as doing that. This remains to be seen, however, because I think running too many Fetch Lands is actually a bad idea in this deck.
Regardless, even with a tad bit less consistency, Vampires are everything that the Suicide of old wishes it could have been (especially since it's champion card gives everything flying). The thing is, MBA was ultimately phased out for Red Death and Eva Green (to which Eva Green only exists thanks to Tarmogoyf in Legacy formats) and although the formats are a bit different, I think the combination of Red and Black is well worth it.
Also, for people who keep suggesting things like the Borderposts, I'm not so certain I see a point in playing a card that requires you to slow down the Aggro part of this deck when I think something like the Fetch Lands or even Expanse are going to be much better at achieving the goal that you are looking for. Sure, the Borderposts do add more mana producers into the deck that have black in their costs. However, Fetch Lands essentially do the same thing by coming down and taking a Land out of your deck, leaving more and more black cards in it.
The Borderposts allow us to run less land than we normally would commit to, and it helps to control the Nocturnus buff. The Fetch lands wouldn't be the same as if they're sitting on top...your dudes aren't getting buffed. Of course, I run a more control-ish build with my Vampires, so I'm not as fast, choosing instead to stifle my opponent's offense, then swooping in for the kill.
Also, for people who keep suggesting things like the Borderposts, I'm not so certain I see a point in playing a card that requires you to slow down the Aggro part of this deck when I think something like the Fetch Lands or even Expanse are going to be much better at achieving the goal that you are looking for. Sure, the Borderposts do add more mana producers into the deck that have black in their costs. However, Fetch Lands essentially do the same thing by coming down and taking a Land out of your deck, leaving more and more black cards in it.
The Borderposts allow us to run less land than we normally would commit to, and it helps to control the Nocturnus buff. The Fetch lands wouldn't be the same as if they're sitting on top...your dudes aren't getting buffed. Of course, I run a more control-ish build with my Vampires, so I'm not as fast, choosing instead to stifle my opponent's offense, then swooping in for the kill.
You are right, Borderposts are definitely superior if they are sitting on top of the deck at that given moment, but when else are they superior? Fetch Lands are essentially playing 2 Lands in your one turn, thus cutting out 2 lands from the deck for you to have to worry about. The Borderposts merely account for a single land, are awful to draw at the beginning of the game for Aggro-affiliated builds, and will tend to slow the deck down unless they are being played after T4.
For the Fetches, I could potentially cut out 8 Lands from the deck by playing all 4 Fetches in one game (which never happens, but I'm merely doing it for example), which is 36.4% of my entire land base. If you really wanted to get carried away with this and play up to 8 Fetch Lands (which I'm not necessarily Condoning) as opposed to 4, that number goes up even higher. Now, if you are playing 4 Fetches you will likely only be able to drop 2 if things are going really good for you, but that right there eliminates 18.2% of your land base. Assuming you went 8 Fetches after all, it's not uncommon to draw more than 2 of them over the course of the game.
The only benefit I see from Borderpost is that if it sits on top of your deck, you get to keep Nocturnus effect for that one turn. If you are playing a control build, I guess it wouldn't matter since you can afford to slow the game down. Is it really worth it to use a card in an Aggro deck that is just absolutely awful if you draw it in the beginning of the game though as opposed to a card that will effectively do the samethings while letting you keep your speed? Furthermore, wouldn't drawing Borderpost prior to Nocturnus coming down devalue it's effectiveness? By the time you've dropped that Borderpost, you could have dropped a Fetchland and also removed a Swamp from your deck with it.
I think that the value of Fetchlands for Red Death-like variants of Vampires just carries more value behind it than any of the borderlands can bring to the deck. Vampires are tribal, which means they are effectively already slower than most Aggro decks but likewise need the speed just as much to keep themselves in the game. Borderposts are nice little tricks you can pull to keep Nocturnus effect, but they effectively take away from speed and equate to bad draws early in the game, which is something the Fetchlands offer. Assuming you are using Fetches yourself and you are playing it smart with things like Sign in Blood, you should easily be able to manipulate what is on top of your deck if you don't like it and likewise be able to cut more of your excess lands out from the deck in a very timely manner.
Edit: 3Drinks, I just took a look at your deck to get a feel of what it was and only just now realize that it's Grixis. Perhaps it comes from the heavily aggro format I'm getting accustomed with with Jund Cascade or even 5C Cascade floating around; but I think your deck is trying to do WAY too much all at once. For one thing, you aren't running enough creatures. 8 Creatures with only Countersquall to back them up when White decks are packing more than 4 spells to crush your plans? No way to effectively dodge Stag outside of Ultimatum and Nocturnus? I think you are trying to do too much with all of those cards at one time, especially when I don't even think Nocturnus is as effective on his own.
If anything, your deck is an Esper deck in Grixis format. All of those Borderlands almost statistically gurantee you to get 1 in your opening hand and it seems like the mana base is just as highly chaotic with 8 sets of dual lands and almost an equal divide amongst basic lands. It almost looks to me like your deck just kind of sits there and hopes your opponent doesn't play anything Cascade oriented since your spot removal will likely have issues pushing decks like that back. I'm not trying to be rude, but merely offer some constructive criticism to improve your deck. If you really want to go with that theme, you'd be better off going with White so you have the benefit of Day of Judgment to fall back on.
I have been testing grixis vampires as well. My build has a heavier creature base than 3drinks, having escewed counterspells in favor of more creatures. Here is the list, let me know what you think please.
Agony Warp is nice, but can't do anything against a Stag or get rid of a Baneslayer.
It might not kill a Baneslayer Angel by itself, but it would make it a 2/2 until EoT, which is much easier to deal with. Anyway, what about Grixis Vampires? It would most certainly run slower, like a control deck, than we're running with the base vampire build currently, but maybe it could work? Obviously, I'm only wanting to run full-on Grixis for access to Cruel Ultimatum. This also gives us access to other dual lands.
Obviously it could use a lot of work, but how is that for a base shell?
I would say test it, but one thing that needs work on is the mana base. I would try adding 1 of each borderpost, then switching your mana to all swamps. This could give you access to Tendrils of Corruption for some life gain/creature destruction and rules out a couple landwalk creatures.... especially Inkwell Leviathan.
I have been testing grixis vampires as well. My build has a heavier creature base than 3drinks, having escewed counterspells in favor of more creatures. Here is the list, let me know what you think please.
Yeah, thanks for the feedback there, as mentioned in my first post, that was just a rough attempt at Grixis Vamps. My current build is B splash R. The Grixis I posted above could just be a starting point for others who aren't interested in the countless aggro builds we'll see at a later date.
I have been testing grixis vampires as well. My build has a heavier creature base than 3drinks, having escewed counterspells in favor of more creatures. Here is the list, let me know what you think please.
i swear if this thread gets closed again because of you, your teddy bears will cease to have faces...
black splash red looks to be the strongest vamp deck. MBC may start to see a good deal of the play to start, but the things BR have in their toolbox seems to make it more viable in the current meta.
you might even see a Grixis vampires make a run for it, but i don't think it'll last too long
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Well, I'd actually like to see some opinions on the Borderpost Vs. Fetchland topic I discussed earlier if people don't mind. Often times, I have a habit of investing money in expensive options for my deck thanks to my Spike-like nature when there is cheaper solutions that are the most you need.
I can understand 3drinks idea on Borderposts and how they are nicer to have on the top of the deck, but I think the bonus for them effective ends there. I still think Fetchlands are the best way to go for a deck like this, but I'm interested in the opinions of others.
If possible, I'd like for people to think in terms of what is best for the deck though. From my experience, a lot of players in this section tend to focus on budgeting options to avoid paying for cards that will obviously make the deck better so let's pretend for the sake of the argument that budget is ireelevant.
Well, I'd actually like to see some opinions on the Borderpost Vs. Fetchland topic I discussed earlier if people don't mind. Often times, I have a habit of investing money in expensive options for my deck thanks to my Spike-like nature when there is cheaper solutions that are the most you need.
I can understand 3drinks idea on Borderposts and how they are nicer to have on the top of the deck, but I think the bonus for them effective ends there. I still think Fetchlands are the best way to go for a deck like this, but I'm interested in the opinions of others.
If possible, I'd like for people to think in terms of what is best for the deck though. From my experience, a lot of players in this section tend to focus on budgeting options to avoid paying for cards that will obviously make the deck better so let's pretend for the sake of the argument that budget is ireelevant.
the faces of your teddy bears are mine.
why is it so hard for people to FOLLOW THE RULES. you all can't be anarchists, you're too dumb.
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Also, for people who keep suggesting things like the Borderposts, I'm not so certain I see a point in playing a card that requires you to slow down the Aggro part of this deck when I think something like the Fetch Lands or even Expanse are going to be much better at achieving the goal that you are looking for. Sure, the Borderposts do add more mana producers into the deck that have black in their costs. However, Fetch Lands essentially do the samething by coming down and taking a Land out of your deck, leaving more and more black cards in it.
As it is pointless to discuss cards not in Standard (the mods are serious about this as the thread has been locked once already), the question remains do posts slow down Aggro? Well unless you have a turn 1 play there is no issue playing a Post turn 1. It is true a Terramorphic pulls a land out of the deck, but there are just a slow as a post as the land you pull comes into play tapped. The only other "fetch lands" in Standard are the Panoramas and not only to you have to pay mana to fetch your land, that land comes into play tapped as well. Talk about slowing down a deck as you cannot tap a panorama to pay for its sacrifice ability as you must tap it to sacrifice it. Expanses are no better than Posts in terms of the speed of the deck.
Right now, which is what we are aloud to discuss, the posts are a better option as they have the same speed and let you run less noncolored mana sources. You are right with each additional land you take out you increase the chances of flipping a black card, but builds running 8 posts are running 8 more black sources and 8 fewer land.
So lets say 24 land, that is only 16 nonblack sources. You are running 4 fetches (no way are you running Panoramas in aggro) so you have 24 non black sources. Assume everything else is the same 36 black spells for both. You are right an Xpanse will let you change the top card but you still have more chances to flip a colorless post shuffling where as flipping a post means the Nocturnus is turned on. You have to play all 4 fetches just to get to the same number of nonblack sources.
Having done some math assuming a build with 8 posts versus 4 fetches both 24 lands. Assuming post decks drew a post T2-4 and the fetch land drew a fetch land T2-4 (assuming both decks are on the play with 2 lands and a post/fetch respectively 4 other spells). By the end of T4 when 4 fetches could be used, the post deck would have 50 cards left (14 lands 36 black spells) to 46 cards (14 land, 32 black spells). So the posts would have a 72% (36/50) chance to flip a black spell to the fetches 70% (32/46). So the posts actually have a 2% more of chance to flip a black spell.
Every fetch land not put and every post not drawn into play widens that gap. In fact drawing a basic is better for the posts build where it is aweful for the fetches build. If the posts draw another land instead of a post in the same set up. They still have 50 cards but only 13 land (starting 2 plus drawing 1) but now 37 black sources . So they have 74% chance of flipping a black spell (37/50).
For every basic drawn instead of a fetch the fetches deck has to put two back, not drawing the Fetch and not being able to use it to fetch out another land. So the fetch deck draws a basic on t4 means they can only get down to 15 non black (3 lands drawn 3 fetches 3 more fetched =9 24-9 = 15). There are 47 cards left in the deck at that point (15 land + 32 spells). That means the fetch deck only has a 68% chance to flip a black spell (32/47).
Now the fetch deck has the benefit of drawing a more valuable spell. If all the fetches are played out as in scenario one then of the cards remaining you have a 70% of drawing a spell or creature. Whereas with the posts deck there is only a 64% chance of drawing the same spells 32/50.
But of course every fetch not put into play lowers that gap where it makes no difference for the post deck as they have 50 cards with the same number of spells (again assuming what is drawn is a land rather than a post/fetch). So with 47 cards in the deck there is only a 68% chance to draw one of the other 32 spells. Now this does increase your chances of drawing a Sign in Blood but I don't even want to try and do the math on how that would impact the percentages.
What is the case is at this point in time, even 4 fetches played out assuming the same amount of land means the post will have a slightly better chance of flipping a black card, where as because of deck thinning 4 fetches played out gives the advantage of drawing a playable black spell. So the question is what do want facing up? A greater chance of seeing a playable black creature or removal spell (4%) over the post deck or a 2% less chance of seeing a black spell overall versus the post deck?
Keep in mind of course every expanse not played shifts the numbers in the favor of the post deck. It wants basics as each post is another black spell for the Nocturnus and it does not impact the chance it have to flip a creature/removal spell as it is simply swapping posts for land. The fetch deck however is not benefiting from thinning if it is not playing them out.
Seems right now the edge goes to the post deck. Both expanses and posts slow down aggro so that is a push. And the number of black spells gives it a marginal advantage in flipping a black spell and every land drawn instead of post benefits the post deck whereas every non fetch land drawn hurts the fetch build. Now in three weeks or so all this may change but right now there is no point in discussing this as there are no other fetches in the format. (And personally don't want to see this thread locked again.
Well, I'd actually like to see some opinions on the Borderpost Vs. Fetchland topic I discussed earlier if people don't mind. Often times, I have a habit of investing money in expensive options for my deck thanks to my Spike-like nature when there is cheaper solutions that are the most you need.
I can understand 3drinks idea on Borderposts and how they are nicer to have on the top of the deck, but I think the bonus for them effective ends there. I still think Fetchlands are the best way to go for a deck like this, but I'm interested in the opinions of others.
If possible, I'd like for people to think in terms of what is best for the deck though. From my experience, a lot of players in this section tend to focus on budgeting options to avoid paying for cards that will obviously make the deck better so let's pretend for the sake of the argument that budget is ireelevant.
I think I like the idea of using the Fetchlands BUT this argument only exists if you are running B/W or B/G. Using Fetchlands allows you to filter through your deck, but isn't that the same as using Expanse without the life loss?
Borderposts do count as a black card, but isn't any good with these color combinations.
If you are doing a 3 color vamp deck, I think you lose too much consistency because you'd have to go with control... I'm not sure the Vamps will perform properly.
The only way I'll see myself using any Fetchland is if they come out with dual lands that ACTUALLY count as Mountain Plains, etc. I don't think it makes any sense right now.
Or am I missing something?
EDIT: Also... why are we even talking about Fetchlands? This is a thread about the Vamp deck as is... which barely needs anything outside of basics.
Fetches are amazing even in a mono color deck. You run 8. No questions asked. The point is that they filter through the deck. This means that it gets rid of excess lands causing you to draw into more threats. They do this without the loss of tempo as they bring the land into play untapped. They are auto-includes. More over, they help with your lord as he revolves around the top card of you're library. Shuffle effects help to ensure the deck has a black card on top for his effect to be active.
Furthermore, the deck needs to be mono-black. The reason is Tendrils of Corruption. Those who played during Time Spiral Block remember how it was amazing. It will swing games in your favor as the life gain will be huge (especially late game), and it isn't limited to non-black creatures (like say Doom Blade).
Example list of how Vampires will probably look post Zendikar:
The other problem is not knowing the full extent of Zendikar. It's hard to say what other decks will show up and if some of the more suboptimal cards (such as Child of Night) can be replaced by something better. Pre-Zendikar, the tride is not viable.
I think I like the idea of using the Fetchlands BUT this argument only exists if you are running B/W or B/G. Using Fetchlands allows you to filter through your deck, but isn't that the same as using Expanse without the life loss?
Borderposts do count as a black card, but isn't any good with these color combinations.
If you are doing a 3 color vamp deck, I think you lose too much consistency because you'd have to go with control... I'm not sure the Vamps will perform properly.
The only way I'll see myself using any Fetchland is if they come out with dual lands that ACTUALLY count as Mountain Plains, etc. I don't think it makes any sense right now.
Or am I missing something?
EDIT:
Also... why are we even talking about Fetchlands? This is a thread about the Vamp deck as is... which barely needs anything outside of basics.
I suppose that is one way to look at it, but tell that to the decks like Eva Green who have been using Polluted Delta and Bloodstained Mire without having Blue or Red splashes in the deck. The point of Fetchlands is that they filter out the deck and can be useful for a deck that wants to eliminate lands quickly to leave more Black cards in it to trigger Nocturnus. Simply because you don't play Plains or Forest doesn't mean you can't just pull out Swamps.
As for Terramorphic Expanse, I think it's a fine card. The only issue is that this deck tends to have a fairly low mana curve and pulling any early isn't necessarily a good thing. HOWEVER, playing it after Turn 4 is beautiful since your curve stops at that point. Still, the Fetches are infinitely better.
If you plan to go all out with the Fetches, Mono is the way to go.
Fetches are amazing even in a mono color deck. You run 8. No questions asked. The point is that they filter through the deck. This means that it gets rid of excess lands causing you to draw into more threats. They do this without the loss of tempo as they bring the land into play untapped. They are auto-includes. More over, they help with your lord as he revolves around the top card of you're library. Shuffle effects help to ensure the deck has a black card on top for his effect to be active.
Furthermore, the deck needs to be mono-black. The reason is Tendrils of Corruption. Those who played during Time Spiral Block remember how it was amazing. It will swing games in your favor as the life gain will be huge (especially late game), and it isn't limited to non-black creatures (like say Doom Blade).
Example list of how Vampires will probably look post Zendikar:
The other problem is not knowing the full extent of Zendikar. It's hard to say what other decks will show up and if some of the more suboptimal cards (such as Child of Night) can be replaced by something better. Pre-Zendikar, the tride is not viable.
Seriously... NO TALK OF ZENDIKAR VAMPIRES! At least not yet...
@JasonLP Have the Infest been of more use to you in the main deck? Do you deal with a lot of token aggro decks? They seem so situational to me. Especially since our vamps are easily lost to its affects as well.
@JasonLP Have the Infest been of more use to you in the main deck? Do you deal with a lot of token aggro decks? They seem so situational to me. Especially since our vamps are easily lost to its affects as well.
Lots of token decks (elves, faeries, GW overrun) in my area... and it's really the only mass removal for black. I also like that it doesn't actually cause damage so it can't be prevented.
This has played really nicely thus far. Dark Temper is -sooo nice- vs pro black creatures. Ppl hate seeing their collosus getting killed by Dark Temper in response to a pump that they thought was going to be lethal, knowing next turn they are going to lose the card they could have played with that mana to duress, blightning or specter.
Lots of token decks (elves, faeries, GW overrun) in my area... and it's really the only mass removal for black. I also like that it doesn't actually cause damage so it can't be prevented.
There are a few token decks where I play, not enough to warrant main deck Infest. But I do have a 4 pack in my side board.
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This has played really nicely thus far. Dark Temper is -sooo nice- vs pro black creatures. Ppl hate seeing their collosus getting killed by Dark Temper in response to a pump that they thought was going to be lethal, knowing next turn they are going to lose the card they could have played with that mana to duress, blightning or specter.
Sorry for double posts.
In my R/B vamp deck I run Bituminous Blast. The cascade is nice for getting Black on top as well
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Ours is a madness steeped in lore, the hardest kind for the hardest core.
In my R/B vamp deck I run Bituminous Blast. The cascade is nice for getting Black on top as well
Yeah, I agree. The Bit Blast is awesome for that. I actually beat my bro(he was using my Jund Dragons) because I had a Child and Nocturnus on the field, with a Nocturnus on top. He attacked with his six saprolings, and I Bit Blasted one and cascaded into that Nocturnus--flipping over another Child. Turned the combat into a blowout for me, and I got to recover from near-death with a six point life gain from Child plus double Nocturnus. Needless to say, I won on the next turn.
Things like Anathemancer are part of the reason why I don't want to seperate B from R anymore. They have just have so much utility that I think it would be a crime to alienate any of them.
As for it being less consistent, you are definitely right. However, there are many ways now to "control" Nocturnus effect. Sign in Blood is obviously an option and by dropping Tendrils of Corruption, you no longer have to be entirely dedicated to so many Swamps, which opens the doors to things like Fetch Lands or even Terramorphic Expanse to allow you a means of controlling exactly what sits at the top of your Deck at a given time.
Essentially, I think if BR has more advantages to it and merely requires us to play a spell we were already playing from the start, on top of Fetchlands or something like Expanse (to which even Expanse isn't a bad thing considering the fact that this deck's mana curve completely ends at 4CC, meaning any more land beyond 4 will be excessive); then there simply is no reason to turn to a more easier stopped approach in MonoBlack.
Also, for people who keep suggesting things like the Borderposts, I'm not so certain I see a point in playing a card that requires you to slow down the Aggro part of this deck when I think something like the Fetch Lands or even Expanse are going to be much better at achieving the goal that you are looking for. Sure, the Borderposts do add more mana producers into the deck that have black in their costs. However, Fetch Lands essentially do the samething by coming down and taking a Land out of your deck, leaving more and more black cards in it. I think the Borderposts are a decent way of trying to help control Nocturnus effect, but I think any form of Fetch Land (even Expanse), will ultimately be the best route to take for that. The only benefit I see to Borderposts is that they let you bounce a land back to your hand, allowing you to activate Land Fall again but even the Fetches are just as good as doing that. This remains to be seen, however, because I think running too many Fetch Lands is actually a bad idea in this deck.
Regardless, even with a tad bit less consistency, Vampires are everything that the Suicide of old wishes it could have been (especially since it's champion card gives everything flying). The thing is, MBA was ultimately phased out for Red Death and Eva Green (to which Eva Green only exists thanks to Tarmogoyf in Legacy formats) and although the formats are a bit different, I think the combination of Red and Black is well worth it.
The Borderposts allow us to run less land than we normally would commit to, and it helps to control the Nocturnus buff. The Fetch lands wouldn't be the same as if they're sitting on top...your dudes aren't getting buffed. Of course, I run a more control-ish build with my Vampires, so I'm not as fast, choosing instead to stifle my opponent's offense, then swooping in for the kill.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
You are right, Borderposts are definitely superior if they are sitting on top of the deck at that given moment, but when else are they superior? Fetch Lands are essentially playing 2 Lands in your one turn, thus cutting out 2 lands from the deck for you to have to worry about. The Borderposts merely account for a single land, are awful to draw at the beginning of the game for Aggro-affiliated builds, and will tend to slow the deck down unless they are being played after T4.
For the Fetches, I could potentially cut out 8 Lands from the deck by playing all 4 Fetches in one game (which never happens, but I'm merely doing it for example), which is 36.4% of my entire land base. If you really wanted to get carried away with this and play up to 8 Fetch Lands (which I'm not necessarily Condoning) as opposed to 4, that number goes up even higher. Now, if you are playing 4 Fetches you will likely only be able to drop 2 if things are going really good for you, but that right there eliminates 18.2% of your land base. Assuming you went 8 Fetches after all, it's not uncommon to draw more than 2 of them over the course of the game.
The only benefit I see from Borderpost is that if it sits on top of your deck, you get to keep Nocturnus effect for that one turn. If you are playing a control build, I guess it wouldn't matter since you can afford to slow the game down. Is it really worth it to use a card in an Aggro deck that is just absolutely awful if you draw it in the beginning of the game though as opposed to a card that will effectively do the samethings while letting you keep your speed? Furthermore, wouldn't drawing Borderpost prior to Nocturnus coming down devalue it's effectiveness? By the time you've dropped that Borderpost, you could have dropped a Fetchland and also removed a Swamp from your deck with it.
I think that the value of Fetchlands for Red Death-like variants of Vampires just carries more value behind it than any of the borderlands can bring to the deck. Vampires are tribal, which means they are effectively already slower than most Aggro decks but likewise need the speed just as much to keep themselves in the game. Borderposts are nice little tricks you can pull to keep Nocturnus effect, but they effectively take away from speed and equate to bad draws early in the game, which is something the Fetchlands offer. Assuming you are using Fetches yourself and you are playing it smart with things like Sign in Blood, you should easily be able to manipulate what is on top of your deck if you don't like it and likewise be able to cut more of your excess lands out from the deck in a very timely manner.
Edit: 3Drinks, I just took a look at your deck to get a feel of what it was and only just now realize that it's Grixis. Perhaps it comes from the heavily aggro format I'm getting accustomed with with Jund Cascade or even 5C Cascade floating around; but I think your deck is trying to do WAY too much all at once. For one thing, you aren't running enough creatures. 8 Creatures with only Countersquall to back them up when White decks are packing more than 4 spells to crush your plans? No way to effectively dodge Stag outside of Ultimatum and Nocturnus? I think you are trying to do too much with all of those cards at one time, especially when I don't even think Nocturnus is as effective on his own.
If anything, your deck is an Esper deck in Grixis format. All of those Borderlands almost statistically gurantee you to get 1 in your opening hand and it seems like the mana base is just as highly chaotic with 8 sets of dual lands and almost an equal divide amongst basic lands. It almost looks to me like your deck just kind of sits there and hopes your opponent doesn't play anything Cascade oriented since your spot removal will likely have issues pushing decks like that back. I'm not trying to be rude, but merely offer some constructive criticism to improve your deck. If you really want to go with that theme, you'd be better off going with White so you have the benefit of Day of Judgment to fall back on.
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Vampire Nocturnus
2 Vein Drinker
4 Terminate
4 Sign in Blood
2 Soul Manipulation
2 Consume Spirit
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Veinfire Borderpost
2 Island
2 Mountain
8 Swamp
4 Anathemancer
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Dark Temper
3 Double Negative
I would say test it, but one thing that needs work on is the mana base. I would try adding 1 of each borderpost, then switching your mana to all swamps. This could give you access to Tendrils of Corruption for some life gain/creature destruction and rules out a couple landwalk creatures.... especially Inkwell Leviathan.
You can't post a deck with cards that aren't even released yet... at least not in this thread.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
i swear if this thread gets closed again because of you, your teddy bears will cease to have faces...
black splash red looks to be the strongest vamp deck. MBC may start to see a good deal of the play to start, but the things BR have in their toolbox seems to make it more viable in the current meta.
you might even see a Grixis vampires make a run for it, but i don't think it'll last too long
Read UR Rites (currently 33-9-2 in FNM, 25-6 in MWS Testing.)
got my Playset of FNM Bloodbraids. I is Happy.
I can understand 3drinks idea on Borderposts and how they are nicer to have on the top of the deck, but I think the bonus for them effective ends there. I still think Fetchlands are the best way to go for a deck like this, but I'm interested in the opinions of others.
If possible, I'd like for people to think in terms of what is best for the deck though. From my experience, a lot of players in this section tend to focus on budgeting options to avoid paying for cards that will obviously make the deck better so let's pretend for the sake of the argument that budget is ireelevant.
the faces of your teddy bears are mine.
why is it so hard for people to FOLLOW THE RULES. you all can't be anarchists, you're too dumb.
Read UR Rites (currently 33-9-2 in FNM, 25-6 in MWS Testing.)
got my Playset of FNM Bloodbraids. I is Happy.
As it is pointless to discuss cards not in Standard (the mods are serious about this as the thread has been locked once already), the question remains do posts slow down Aggro? Well unless you have a turn 1 play there is no issue playing a Post turn 1. It is true a Terramorphic pulls a land out of the deck, but there are just a slow as a post as the land you pull comes into play tapped. The only other "fetch lands" in Standard are the Panoramas and not only to you have to pay mana to fetch your land, that land comes into play tapped as well. Talk about slowing down a deck as you cannot tap a panorama to pay for its sacrifice ability as you must tap it to sacrifice it. Expanses are no better than Posts in terms of the speed of the deck.
Right now, which is what we are aloud to discuss, the posts are a better option as they have the same speed and let you run less noncolored mana sources. You are right with each additional land you take out you increase the chances of flipping a black card, but builds running 8 posts are running 8 more black sources and 8 fewer land.
So lets say 24 land, that is only 16 nonblack sources. You are running 4 fetches (no way are you running Panoramas in aggro) so you have 24 non black sources. Assume everything else is the same 36 black spells for both. You are right an Xpanse will let you change the top card but you still have more chances to flip a colorless post shuffling where as flipping a post means the Nocturnus is turned on. You have to play all 4 fetches just to get to the same number of nonblack sources.
Having done some math assuming a build with 8 posts versus 4 fetches both 24 lands. Assuming post decks drew a post T2-4 and the fetch land drew a fetch land T2-4 (assuming both decks are on the play with 2 lands and a post/fetch respectively 4 other spells). By the end of T4 when 4 fetches could be used, the post deck would have 50 cards left (14 lands 36 black spells) to 46 cards (14 land, 32 black spells). So the posts would have a 72% (36/50) chance to flip a black spell to the fetches 70% (32/46). So the posts actually have a 2% more of chance to flip a black spell.
Every fetch land not put and every post not drawn into play widens that gap. In fact drawing a basic is better for the posts build where it is aweful for the fetches build. If the posts draw another land instead of a post in the same set up. They still have 50 cards but only 13 land (starting 2 plus drawing 1) but now 37 black sources . So they have 74% chance of flipping a black spell (37/50).
For every basic drawn instead of a fetch the fetches deck has to put two back, not drawing the Fetch and not being able to use it to fetch out another land. So the fetch deck draws a basic on t4 means they can only get down to 15 non black (3 lands drawn 3 fetches 3 more fetched =9 24-9 = 15). There are 47 cards left in the deck at that point (15 land + 32 spells). That means the fetch deck only has a 68% chance to flip a black spell (32/47).
Now the fetch deck has the benefit of drawing a more valuable spell. If all the fetches are played out as in scenario one then of the cards remaining you have a 70% of drawing a spell or creature. Whereas with the posts deck there is only a 64% chance of drawing the same spells 32/50.
But of course every fetch not put into play lowers that gap where it makes no difference for the post deck as they have 50 cards with the same number of spells (again assuming what is drawn is a land rather than a post/fetch). So with 47 cards in the deck there is only a 68% chance to draw one of the other 32 spells. Now this does increase your chances of drawing a Sign in Blood but I don't even want to try and do the math on how that would impact the percentages.
What is the case is at this point in time, even 4 fetches played out assuming the same amount of land means the post will have a slightly better chance of flipping a black card, where as because of deck thinning 4 fetches played out gives the advantage of drawing a playable black spell. So the question is what do want facing up? A greater chance of seeing a playable black creature or removal spell (4%) over the post deck or a 2% less chance of seeing a black spell overall versus the post deck?
Keep in mind of course every expanse not played shifts the numbers in the favor of the post deck. It wants basics as each post is another black spell for the Nocturnus and it does not impact the chance it have to flip a creature/removal spell as it is simply swapping posts for land. The fetch deck however is not benefiting from thinning if it is not playing them out.
Seems right now the edge goes to the post deck. Both expanses and posts slow down aggro so that is a push. And the number of black spells gives it a marginal advantage in flipping a black spell and every land drawn instead of post benefits the post deck whereas every non fetch land drawn hurts the fetch build. Now in three weeks or so all this may change but right now there is no point in discussing this as there are no other fetches in the format. (And personally don't want to see this thread locked again.
I think I like the idea of using the Fetchlands BUT this argument only exists if you are running B/W or B/G. Using Fetchlands allows you to filter through your deck, but isn't that the same as using Expanse without the life loss?
Borderposts do count as a black card, but isn't any good with these color combinations.
If you are doing a 3 color vamp deck, I think you lose too much consistency because you'd have to go with control... I'm not sure the Vamps will perform properly.
The only way I'll see myself using any Fetchland is if they come out with dual lands that ACTUALLY count as Mountain Plains, etc. I don't think it makes any sense right now.
Or am I missing something?
EDIT:
Also... why are we even talking about Fetchlands? This is a thread about the Vamp deck as is... which barely needs anything outside of basics.
4 Moonglove Changeling
4 Child of Night
4 Vampire Aristocrat
4 Vampire Nocturnus
Spells
4 Doom Blade
4 Sign in Blood
4 Terminate
3 Infest
3 Disentomb
2 Corrupt
2 Tendrils of Corruption
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Graven Cairns
2 Terramorphic Expanse
15 Swamps
1 Mountain
4 Black Knight
4 Dark Temper
2 Earthquake
2 Anathemancer
2 Pithing Needle
1 Infest
Wow... ok.. where to begin.
Fetches are amazing even in a mono color deck. You run 8. No questions asked. The point is that they filter through the deck. This means that it gets rid of excess lands causing you to draw into more threats. They do this without the loss of tempo as they bring the land into play untapped. They are auto-includes. More over, they help with your lord as he revolves around the top card of you're library. Shuffle effects help to ensure the deck has a black card on top for his effect to be active.
Furthermore, the deck needs to be mono-black. The reason is Tendrils of Corruption. Those who played during Time Spiral Block remember how it was amazing. It will swing games in your favor as the life gain will be huge (especially late game), and it isn't limited to non-black creatures (like say Doom Blade).
Example list of how Vampires will probably look post Zendikar:
4 Vampire Nocturnes
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Child of Night
4 Tendrils of Corruption
4 Duress
2 Hideous End (or Doom Blade based on speed of the format)
4 Sign in Blood
Land: 23
4 Obsidian Flats
4 Verdant Marsh
15 Swamp
The other problem is not knowing the full extent of Zendikar. It's hard to say what other decks will show up and if some of the more suboptimal cards (such as Child of Night) can be replaced by something better. Pre-Zendikar, the tride is not viable.
I suppose that is one way to look at it, but tell that to the decks like Eva Green who have been using Polluted Delta and Bloodstained Mire without having Blue or Red splashes in the deck. The point of Fetchlands is that they filter out the deck and can be useful for a deck that wants to eliminate lands quickly to leave more Black cards in it to trigger Nocturnus. Simply because you don't play Plains or Forest doesn't mean you can't just pull out Swamps.
As for Terramorphic Expanse, I think it's a fine card. The only issue is that this deck tends to have a fairly low mana curve and pulling any early isn't necessarily a good thing. HOWEVER, playing it after Turn 4 is beautiful since your curve stops at that point. Still, the Fetches are infinitely better.
If you plan to go all out with the Fetches, Mono is the way to go.
Seriously... NO TALK OF ZENDIKAR VAMPIRES! At least not yet...
BMono-Black ControlB
U(W/B)Master Transmuter(W/B)U
13 Swamp
3 Graven Cairns
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Mountain
1 Vivid Marsh
Creatures(13)
4 Child of Night
4 Vampire Nocturnus
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Vein Drinker
4 Terminate
4 Tendrils of Corruption
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Sign in Blood
4 Infest
4 Veinfire Borderpost
4 Bituminous Blast
4 Black Knight
3 Thought Hemorrhage
3 Anathemancer
3 Duress
2 Earthquake
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
@JasonLP Have the Infest been of more use to you in the main deck? Do you deal with a lot of token aggro decks? They seem so situational to me. Especially since our vamps are easily lost to its affects as well.
Lots of token decks (elves, faeries, GW overrun) in my area... and it's really the only mass removal for black. I also like that it doesn't actually cause damage so it can't be prevented.
4 Black Knight
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Vampire Nocturnus
4 Duress
3 Terminate
3 Doom Blade
4 Sign in Blood
4 Blightning
2 Tendrils Of Corruption
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Terramorphic expanse (changes top card!)
1 Mountain
11 Swamp
4 Dark Temper (vs pro-black)
1 Terminate
3 Infest
3 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Thought Hemorrhage
2 Mind Shatter
This has played really nicely thus far. Dark Temper is -sooo nice- vs pro black creatures. Ppl hate seeing their collosus getting killed by Dark Temper in response to a pump that they thought was going to be lethal, knowing next turn they are going to lose the card they could have played with that mana to duress, blightning or specter.
There are a few token decks where I play, not enough to warrant main deck Infest. But I do have a 4 pack in my side board.
Sorry for double posts.
In my R/B vamp deck I run Bituminous Blast. The cascade is nice for getting Black on top as well
Yeah, I agree. The Bit Blast is awesome for that. I actually beat my bro(he was using my Jund Dragons) because I had a Child and Nocturnus on the field, with a Nocturnus on top. He attacked with his six saprolings, and I Bit Blasted one and cascaded into that Nocturnus--flipping over another Child. Turned the combat into a blowout for me, and I got to recover from near-death with a six point life gain from Child plus double Nocturnus. Needless to say, I won on the next turn.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
like half of those cards aren't standard lol