I still run three MD Howling Mines because in my meta there are a lot of Elfball builds running around so what I do is let them combo out to an extent, then tutor with Tezzy, take extra turns with the Mines in play and stockpile my fogs so that they eventually deck themselves when I pass. You can side them out but they're still very versatile in certain scenarios.
I am starting to settle on a creatureless version that has been going well enough. The sad thing though... I think Time Warp is pointless in this deck. With Time Sieve, Cryptic Command, Sleep, and Savor the Moment I have all the stuff I typically need. Anyone else finding this too?
I am starting to settle on a creatureless version that has been going well enough. The sad thing though... I think Time Warp is pointless in this deck. With Time Sieve, Cryptic Command, Sleep, and Savor the Moment I have all the stuff I typically need. Anyone else finding this too?
Exactly, it's too expensive.
Either you focus on Artifact Recursion and Time Sieve, or you focus on Planeswalkers with Savor the Moment (and maybe a couple Time Warp). Time Warp overall is not worth it's cost in this deck.
Time warp is perfect for three things... starting the combo before you have enough artifacts or mana for an OTV... forcing a counterspell because its too powerful.... and casting the turn before swinging with tezz to have all artifacts in tact...
I cut them down to 3, and might go down to 2, but they really are helpful and I dont think I would cut them all
I am a bit worried that the lack of Cryptic Command is going to handicap me and have considered removing the Time Warps for another 2 fog effects. I'd really hate to invest in the Cryptics so late in the game. Maybe Batwing Brume or something. Hoping that the addition of more Elsewhere Flasks and Kaleidostones can make up for the lack of Howling Mine's. I could remove the 2 Time Warp's and 2 artifacts for some fog effects but don't want to widdle down my artifact count too much. I need to order the cards today if I want them by Friday so any suggestions would be great!!!
GuyArcher - Cryptics are getting somewhat cheap now, but Sleep does a decent job as well. It keeps people from using activated abilities on creatures, which has been kinda handy as well as stopping attacks. Haste is a pain in the butt that Sleep can't deal with, but Haste isn't ~that~ prevalent (yet?).
I tweaked the mana base and it seems to be working really well. The problem with the M10 duals (which I do love) is that they aren't really good with the Borderposts. So, I brought in more Basics and Terramorphic Expanses to make sure I can drop the Borderposts more consistently. 2 Rings of Brightearth may become 3, but they can be pretty mana intensive and 2 seems to be enough. They really are amazing though.
The sideboard is basically anti Cascade and anti Teeg. I hate fog cards in this deck, but I might have to put those into the board if Elves is going to be as big as it currently looks to be.
Why are people siding Pithing Needle? Windbrisk Heights? Ajani? It doesn't stop Heritage Druid because her ability is a mana ability, it would only be really good against Mutavault in Faeries. It stops Ajani in Kithkin and Windbrisk but you can always fog their deck to pieces. It's relatively useless against 5CC... sooo... I don't get it. :^/ Enlighten me?
I can see the danger in the Archmage... but wouldn't it be better to make space for Path or Doom Blade? Instant speed removal is nice, especially against Elvish Archdruid. Also, I'm throwing the Mirror-Sigil Sergeant idea out the window, and never thinking about it again. This meta has too many Hallowed Burials for it to be effective.
I can see the danger in the Archmage... but wouldn't it be better to make space for Path or Doom Blade? Instant speed removal is nice, especially against Elvish Archdruid. Also, I'm throwing the Mirror-Sigil Sergeant idea out the window, and never thinking about it again. This meta has too many Hallowed Burials for it to be effective.
Sarge is an amazing creature and this deck can protect him. But yeah, he is totally unnecessary and has become the perfect example of "win more." Doomblade is a solid idea, but I still hate Path to Exile. Giving Elves another land when they have the potential to play so many 1-3 cmc cards can be bad. I played Standard Elfball for a 3-4 months and free land was always a good thing (especially when it helped cast the 20-30 cards I drew the next turn).
Doom Blade... Yeah that may work its way into the 75-76.
"The accumulation of their filth will foam up around their waists, and all the [prostitutes] and politicians will look up and shout, 'SAVE US.' and I'll look down and whisper,'No.'"
Aha, Silence! THAT'S the card I've been looking for to ensure the combo goes off! Cryptic Command was just too cost intensive. Thank you, Ruel! The maindeck Canonists were probably pretty clutch in a field full of Bloodbraids. YMMV with those guys in FNM, though. 4 deserve to be in the deck, it's just your meta that determines how many MD and SB.
What do you guys think about only running 2 Tezzeret, though? Is that enough?
I also wonder if 2 Cryptic (+2 Negate SB) is enough to deal with Pithing Needle. I liked the idea of Dispeller's Capsule, despite it being a little pricey. Disperse could be an option, I guess.
Just a question: How early can this combo go off, and can someone walk me through the plays of the first few turns?
In testing I don't think I'm doing it right since the combo doesn't go off quick enough, so help is needed.
my usual early turns are something like....
T1 Borderpost
T2 Howling Mine
T3 Elsewhere Flask or Play a borderpost flat out to accel...
T4 Lullaby / CC (try to ensure they tap out if possible)
T5 Ideal here is to Time warp... Gives you two extra cards and stuff to go off with
T6 Time Sieve + 2 Other Draw artifacts - Time Walk -
T7 Lots of artifacts + Time Walk again, or Open the Vaults
T8 Tezz + Other way to timewalk
T9 Open Vaults + Time Walk
T10 Win
Usually something like that... this isnt an "ideal" hand, but this is assuming they have stuff to respond with, and assuming I have my usual draw luck... which is just plain awful so it takes me twice as much work to get there
Also as for silence... honestly that card is awful... its only real use is if you HAVE TO resolve a open the vaults RIGHT then... which usually if your ready to cast open the vaults they dont have a response or you wouldnt be at that stage anyways... open the vaults is one of the last threats you cast not the first... and remember the silence doesnt go through more of your turns... so you really only get off 1 spell... the only reason I would really consider it is against jund for T4 on them so they dont throw out a bloodbraid...
T1 Borderpost
T2 Howling Mine
T3 Elsewhere Flask or Play a borderpost flat out to accel...
T4 Lullaby / CC (try to ensure they tap out if possible)
T5 Ideal here is to Time warp... Gives you two extra cards and stuff to go off with
T6 Time Sieve + 2 Other Draw artifacts - Time Walk -
T7 Lots of artifacts + Time Walk again, or Open the Vaults
T8 Tezz + Other way to timewalk
T9 Open Vaults + Time Walk
T10 Win
Usually something like that... this isnt an "ideal" hand, but this is assuming they have stuff to respond with, and assuming I have my usual draw luck... which is just plain awful so it takes me twice as much work to get there
Also as for silence... honestly that card is awful... its only real use is if you HAVE TO resolve a open the vaults RIGHT then... which usually if your ready to cast open the vaults they dont have a response or you wouldnt be at that stage anyways... open the vaults is one of the last threats you cast not the first... and remember the silence doesnt go through more of your turns... so you really only get off 1 spell... the only reason I would really consider it is against jund for T4 on them so they dont throw out a bloodbraid...
Thanks. Someone mentioned the combo going off on turn 4, and I didn't see how it was possible, but your approach is similar to what I was thinking. Turns 5-6 sound about right.
But why would you not run Cryptic in a deck running heavy blue? It gives you more time to set up your combo, via either counter or mass tap. And there's always the cantrip. The bounce as mentioned earlier can be used to remove stuff like Mage and Needle. I think Silence is the card that should be in the SB, as Silence is not good against some decks (that can't disrupt the combo) whereas Cryptic is good against everything.
Also as for silence... honestly that card is awful...
Well my thoughts where that you cast it against combo decks, obviously. Or when you want to play Vaults or us Tezz's ability. I'd consider it good tech against control, elf-ball, fog decks. Hopefully though after taking so many turn in a row they may have overextended and tapped all their lands.
Has anyone tried using Time Sieve with Colfenor's Urn and Salvage Titan/other (X/4+) artifact creatures? Salvage Titan is now extremely easy to get out early with all the 0-cost artifacts in M10. I haven't tested this, but it seems at least somewhat viable.
Thanks. Someone mentioned the combo going off on turn 4, and I didn't see how it was possible, but your approach is similar to what I was thinking. Turns 5-6 sound about right.
The deck goes off turn 5...the combo just generates extra turns. If you look at his play by play from turn 5 to 10, the opponent gets no turns.
BTW-If Ruel is playing this deck and it loses next to nothing to the rotation of lorwyn block...well lets just say I might be investing in some time sieves.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Dodge, Dodge, Dodge?
Or combo faster
Exactly, it's too expensive.
Either you focus on Artifact Recursion and Time Sieve, or you focus on Planeswalkers with Savor the Moment (and maybe a couple Time Warp). Time Warp overall is not worth it's cost in this deck.
Standard:
Transmuter Elixir WUB
Naya Knight 'Blade RGW
Mighty Polymorphin' Progenitus UR
Extended:
RoflThopter UB
Casual:
Teferi Control/Mill U
I cut them down to 3, and might go down to 2, but they really are helpful and I dont think I would cut them all
I am a bit worried that the lack of Cryptic Command is going to handicap me and have considered removing the Time Warps for another 2 fog effects. I'd really hate to invest in the Cryptics so late in the game. Maybe Batwing Brume or something. Hoping that the addition of more Elsewhere Flasks and Kaleidostones can make up for the lack of Howling Mine's. I could remove the 2 Time Warp's and 2 artifacts for some fog effects but don't want to widdle down my artifact count too much. I need to order the cards today if I want them by Friday so any suggestions would be great!!!
Signature created by Spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios
I tweaked the mana base and it seems to be working really well. The problem with the M10 duals (which I do love) is that they aren't really good with the Borderposts. So, I brought in more Basics and Terramorphic Expanses to make sure I can drop the Borderposts more consistently. 2 Rings of Brightearth may become 3, but they can be pretty mana intensive and 2 seems to be enough. They really are amazing though.
The sideboard is basically anti Cascade and anti Teeg. I hate fog cards in this deck, but I might have to put those into the board if Elves is going to be as big as it currently looks to be.
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
8 Islands
4 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Glacial Fortress
Artifacts - 14
4 Elsewhere Flasks
4 Kaleidostone
4 Time Sieve
2 Rings of Brightearth
4 Cryptic Command
3 Savor the Moment
4 Open the Vault
3 Negate
2 Sleep
Planeswalkers - 5
3 Jace Beleren
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Flashfreeze
2 Unsummon
4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sleep
1 Negate
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
3 Mystic Gate
6 Island
4 Plains
3 Swamp
Artifacts- 23
4 Elsewhere Flask
4 Kaleidostone
4 Time Sieve
3 Rings of Brighthearth
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Jace Beleren
Other Spells- 17
4 Cryptic Command
4 Savor the Moment
4 Open the Vaults
1 Sleep
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Flashfreeze
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Sleep
3 Pithing Needle
1 Jace Beleren
The fact that it is a useful relevant 1-drop artifact is enough to test it out. I am still 100% flexible with the sideboard (except Flashfreeze).
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Sarge is an amazing creature and this deck can protect him. But yeah, he is totally unnecessary and has become the perfect example of "win more." Doomblade is a solid idea, but I still hate Path to Exile. Giving Elves another land when they have the potential to play so many 1-3 cmc cards can be bad. I played Standard Elfball for a 3-4 months and free land was always a good thing (especially when it helped cast the 20-30 cards I drew the next turn).
Doom Blade... Yeah that may work its way into the 75-76.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
4 Elsewhere Flask
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
1 Font Of Mythos
4 Howling Mine
3 Kaleidostone
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Time Sieve
Instants
4 Cryptic Command
4 Pollen Lullaby
2 Jace Beleren
2 Tezzeret The Seeker
Sorceries
4 Open The Vaults
4 Time Warp
Basic Lands
7 Island
3 Plains
3 Swamp
Lands
3 Mystic Gate
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Angelsong
4 Flashfreeze
4 Path To Exile
3 Mystic Gate
3 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Cryptic Command
4 Elsewhere Flask
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Howling Mine
2 Jace Beleren
3 Kaleidostone
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Open the Vaults
4 Pollen Lullaby
3 Silence
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
3 Time Sieve
4 Time Warp
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Cryptic Command
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Jace Beleren
3 Meddling Mage
2 Negate
1 Silence
2 Vedalken Outlander
What do you guys think about only running 2 Tezzeret, though? Is that enough?
I also wonder if 2 Cryptic (+2 Negate SB) is enough to deal with Pithing Needle. I liked the idea of Dispeller's Capsule, despite it being a little pricey. Disperse could be an option, I guess.
In testing I don't think I'm doing it right since the combo doesn't go off quick enough, so help is needed.
4 Swamp
4 Plains
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Kaleidostone
4 Elsewhere Flask
4 Howling Mine
4 Time Sieve
2 Jace Beleren
4 Savor the Moment
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Mistvein Borderpost
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Time Warp
4 Open the Vaults
4 Duress
4 Negate
3 Vedalken Outlander
4 Plumeveil
I'm torn between Thoughtseize and Duress in the board. Should I run both?
Savor the moment is really, really good.
Also, has anyone considered Fabricate? Or is it too clunky?
my usual early turns are something like....
T1 Borderpost
T2 Howling Mine
T3 Elsewhere Flask or Play a borderpost flat out to accel...
T4 Lullaby / CC (try to ensure they tap out if possible)
T5 Ideal here is to Time warp... Gives you two extra cards and stuff to go off with
T6 Time Sieve + 2 Other Draw artifacts - Time Walk -
T7 Lots of artifacts + Time Walk again, or Open the Vaults
T8 Tezz + Other way to timewalk
T9 Open Vaults + Time Walk
T10 Win
Usually something like that... this isnt an "ideal" hand, but this is assuming they have stuff to respond with, and assuming I have my usual draw luck... which is just plain awful so it takes me twice as much work to get there
Also as for silence... honestly that card is awful... its only real use is if you HAVE TO resolve a open the vaults RIGHT then... which usually if your ready to cast open the vaults they dont have a response or you wouldnt be at that stage anyways... open the vaults is one of the last threats you cast not the first... and remember the silence doesnt go through more of your turns... so you really only get off 1 spell... the only reason I would really consider it is against jund for T4 on them so they dont throw out a bloodbraid...
Thanks. Someone mentioned the combo going off on turn 4, and I didn't see how it was possible, but your approach is similar to what I was thinking. Turns 5-6 sound about right.
Well my thoughts where that you cast it against combo decks, obviously. Or when you want to play Vaults or us Tezz's ability. I'd consider it good tech against control, elf-ball, fog decks. Hopefully though after taking so many turn in a row they may have overextended and tapped all their lands.
The deck goes off turn 5...the combo just generates extra turns. If you look at his play by play from turn 5 to 10, the opponent gets no turns.
BTW-If Ruel is playing this deck and it loses next to nothing to the rotation of lorwyn block...well lets just say I might be investing in some time sieves.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft