I don't frequent this forum, and I just came here to get some advice on this very deck idea, but you've beaten me to it.
My original concept included no creatures except Platinum Angel. Instead I had lots of fog/removal spells. You may not even need the Platinum Angel. Think about it:
Suppose you've got 2 Tainted Sigils out along with Sanguine Bond. Cast Ad Nauseum, lose around 10 life only. After 1 Tainted Sigil: gain back all 10 life, opponent loses 10. After the SECOND Tainted Sigil: you now gain 20 (10 of yours + opponent's 10) life, so your opponent loses another 20, for a total of 30 lost life.
With a third Tainted Sigil (with the aid of Diabolic Tutor), we can make our opponent lose 40 life, which adds up to 70 life lost after losing only 10 from Ad Nauseum.
This begs the quesiton: is Ad Nauseum even necessary? Can we achieve what we want with just a few Tainted Sigils?
This begs the quesiton: is Ad Nauseum even necessary? Can we achieve what we want with just a few Tainted Sigils?
I had the very same thought. There is plenty of Lifegain/link out there, and really a deck full of that stuff+sanguine bond would probably work pretty well. The real question is....is the naueam/sigil combo the icing on the cake, or the nasty side dish?
I like Ad Nauseam here because it's a great way to 1. lose some life, and 2. dig for necessary cards (if necessary). When you play Ad Nauseam, it should only be because you can win the game with that play (at the end of your opponent's turn, no less) or because if you don't find that one card you need in your library soon, you'll lose the game. I would personally suggest taking Ad Nauseam down to two copies, cause you should only need one per game.
The best part about Ad Nauseam in a deck like this is it's unexpected. Anytime you have a Bond and a Sigil out, you can win the game whenever you like (for the most part, assuming you've kept your life up with creatures and Tendrils and such). This means that your opponent either no longer can tap out ever (to bluff a counter or something) or your opponent has to kill you quickly. Otherwise, the game could be over the next instant.
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""Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est"
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
Baneslayer Angel is almost too good to not use.
If Baneslayer gets through 1 time with Bond and Sigil out its 20dmg.
Which I hear, is some good.
Yes, Baneslayer is good; however, playing it here depends on whether you're looking to play for the Ad Nauseam combo or not. Decks that run Divinity of Pride and Baneslayer and such will have a rough time with Ad Nauseam because they can't predict whether or not the next card drawn will get them down where they need to be to win. The smaller the average CMC in this deck, the smaller increments the life is lost in and the more precise we can be. But, again, if you're going more for a B/W aggro/Bond deck, then Baneslayer is the way to go.
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""Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est"
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
Why not Goldenglow Moth as your "creature" for this deck. It keeps the cmc low (1) and gives you a blocker in the air. It gains 4 life when it blocks (important timing if they are swinging for win) and with a couple of Sigils, it wins (gain 4, they lose 4. sac sigil; gain 8, they lose 8. sac sigil; gain 16, they lose 16... grand total 28 gain, 28 lost). Thus far it has been a sweet addition for me.
I think the point is to win as soon as possible after casting Sanguine Bond. We don't want to have to wait for our opponent's next turn and hope he's stupid enough to attack while we have a Goldenglow Moth out, giving him chances to (1) remove Goldenglow Moth, (2) remove Sanguine Bond, (3) remove even one Tainted Sigil.
Besides, your opponent wouldn't lose 8 from the first sigil, since he only lost 4 from Goldenglow Moth.
Block: you gain 4 -> opponent loses 4
First Sigil: you gain 4 -> opponent loses 4 [cumulative 8]
Second Sigil: you gain 8 -> opponent loses 8 [cumulative 16]
This is also another problem with Ad Nauseum: its high casting cost makes it impossible to cast on the same turn we cast Sanguine Bond; we would have to wait for our next turn. And since we're most likely to tap out casting Sanguine Bond, we won't be able to counter anything our opponent throws at us. (I had also included Lapse of Certainty.) For this reason, maybe we should have something like Wall of Reverence along with Cradle of Vitality (1) to build up early life gain for protection and (2) to allow us to gain enough life at the end of the turn we cast Sanguine Bond to win the game.
Another alternative would be a fatty with Lifelink (with a lower casting cost than Sanguine Bond).
Maybe I'm being overly cautious with waiting a turn or two after casting Sanguine Bond. I don't know.
I was curious myself about the inclusion of Wall of Reverence/Cradle of Vitality. You have to pay 1W though for every instance of lifegain to use it's effects though so not sure how well that would pay off.
Yes, Baneslayer is good; however, playing it here depends on whether you're looking to play for the Ad Nauseam combo or not. Decks that run Divinity of Pride and Baneslayer and such will have a rough time with Ad Nauseam because they can't predict whether or not the next card drawn will get them down where they need to be to win. The smaller the average CMC in this deck, the smaller increments the life is lost in and the more precise we can be. But, again, if you're going more for a B/W aggro/Bond deck, then Baneslayer is the way to go.
Baneslayer is the same CMC as Ad Nauseam and Sanguine Bond. The smaller increments arguement of lower CMCs in the deck doesnt make sense to me.
Its a big fat flying efficient beater that gives you an alternate win condition if you cannot combo out, and you can combo off of it.
It fits nearly every role in the deck that you could possibly want in a creature.
Baneslayer is the same CMC as Ad Nauseam and Sanguine Bond. The smaller increments arguement of lower CMCs in the deck doesnt make sense to me.
Its a big fat flying efficient beater that gives you an alternate win condition if you cannot combo out, and you can combo off of it.
It fits nearly every role in the deck that you could possibly want in a creature.
My argument is thus: when playing Ad Nauseam in combo deck where the essential pieces have CMCs of 5, 5, and 3, the average CMC of the deck is going to be high enough as it is. Running fewer high-CMC cards outside of the combo pieces will lower the average CMC of the deck enough to make a difference in your draws off Ad Nauseam and making them a little more precise to where you need them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
""Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est"
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
Baneslayer is the same CMC as Ad Nauseam and Sanguine Bond. The smaller increments arguement of lower CMCs in the deck doesnt make sense to me.
Its a big fat flying efficient beater that gives you an alternate win condition if you cannot combo out, and you can combo off of it.
It fits nearly every role in the deck that you could possibly want in a creature.
I have to agree with this.
One problem I've run into is consistency. How do we make sure to get what we need? I've tried Sign in Blood and Diabolic Tutor with no luck. I've tried adding in more control elements with no luck. Not sure what else to do.
My argument is thus: when playing Ad Nauseam in combo deck where the essential pieces have CMCs of 5, 5, and 3, the average CMC of the deck is going to be high enough as it is. Running fewer high-CMC cards outside of the combo pieces will lower the average CMC of the deck enough to make a difference in your draws off Ad Nauseam and making them a little more precise to where you need them.
Lowering the average CMC of your deck isnt going to change the fact that it is going to draw into 5cc cards. It doesnt make it any more precise.
Say you only have 3cc and 5cc cards in the deck, youre not magically going to draw into a 4cc card because thats the average cost.
It also doesnt matter what the CMC of the cards youre drawing unless youre under 6 life. In which case, you prolly dont want to cast Ad Nauseum in the first place.
Lowering the average CMC of your deck isnt going to change the fact that it is going to draw into 5cc cards. It doesnt make it any more precise.
Say you only have 3cc and 5cc cards in the deck, youre not magically going to draw into a 4cc card because thats the average cost.
It also doesnt matter what the CMC of the cards youre drawing unless youre under 6 life. In which case, you prolly dont want to cast Ad Nauseum in the first place.
do you not understand the purpose of having a mana "curve" in a deck?
if you have 15 5cmc spells, your run the risk of being killed by faster decks before you can build a defense.
In my mind the more lower costing cards, the more blocking and aggro detterent you can be, since I see this as the main problem with this deck besides well placed thought hemo or general disruption.
Thats why a deck with mana and all cards costing over 4 mana would never work but a deck that never goes over 3 can work quite well.
At most I could see 2 baneslayers if there is something worth replacing it with. You dont want to draw into so many high costing cards right away, theya re your finishers, you need to have something worthwhile in the field before then.
Mana-curve makes your deck overall more efficient and better flowing since you will less often end up with cards you cant play until its too late.
since this deck is not aggro, and not ramp, and doesnt have the combo gimickness of a deck like swans, it needs its mana-curve to be forgiving.
I love this deck. Every combination of cards helps eachother out. The interactions are insane and you can always find a way to just keep gaining life and dealing damage. I have a build that certainly benefits from Fog.
Here's my build:
Okay, Ive ran thru pretty much every variable I can think of for my R/g deck, so now its time to check out my second favorite deck so far since m10. I have a couple questions.
In a deck like this, how does it handle aggro? I imagine that its quite possibly the hardest matchup for this deck.
How do you handle your early turns? versions like the one I quoted have a lot of early white costing creatures like medowgrain and finks, while great creatures, how often can you actually play them t2, t3?
Does tendrils really win games in this deck? seems like it needs a pure black deck to make it really viable.
how much lifegain hi-jinks does the deck need? divinity of pride, tainted sigils, nauseum, and sanguine bond enough? or do we need actual lifelink beaters aside from the pride?
I kinda wanted to make a version with a nice smooth curve that didnt immediatly rely on lifelink shenanigans. maybe have more hybrid W/B cards? The B/W mimic can be nice for 4 flying damage turn3. You can add the gwillion 1/1 lifelinker for 1...though not very strong.
stillmoon cavelier is immune to most types of removal aside from burn.
I also kinda like the divinity of prides enchantment since it makes b/w creatures get +3/+3 for 1 mana, making for a possible 4 power gwillion turn2 thats out of sweeper and lightning bolt range, though it sets you up for 2 for 1's.
just thinking out loud
edit: even if this deck doesnt ever become truly competitive, I want it for multiplayer fun, anyone tried it in that setting? seems like it could blow people up quite well.
One problem I've run into is consistency. How do we make sure to get what we need? I've tried Sign in Blood and Diabolic Tutor with no luck. I've tried adding in more control elements with no luck. Not sure what else to do.
Well right now I'm running both tutors and Sign in Blood, but on friday I intend to trade for some Liliana Vess (if I can). I think they'll work much better, though I'm not sure if I really want to run 2 vess and 2 goldmane. I suppose it'll all depend on how usefull I think goldmane is after some playtesting.
I'm also thinking about a version centered around Sanguine Bond alone with a bunch of lifelink/gain cards such as Divinity of Pride and Baneslayer Angel.........
I'm also thinking about a version centered around Sanguine Bond alone with a bunch of lifelink/gain cards such as Divinity of Pride and Baneslayer Angel.........
while I like the idea I question its usefulness. Lifelink aggro decks to my mind were not that strong, all sanguine bond does is give it extra punch around turn5 at the earliest.
but its a extra punch equivalent to doubling the damage and lifegain...could be good.
[quote=Aether99;/comments/2586229]In a deck like this, how does it handle aggro? I imagine that its quite possibly the hardest matchup for this deck.
Does tendrils really win games in this deck? seems like it needs a pure black deck to make it really viable.quote]
I cannot speak for these other decks, but for my build, aggro isnt much of an issue. I main board lots of fog effects, some spot removal, and Infest. I know I cannot deal with all aggro, but so far so good.
Tendrils, in my testing has been a decent removal spell with the obvious life gain kicker for the deck. I gave Corrupt a try but found it to be slow (cmc 6), though I like the ability to send it to the dome.
Has anyone gave Idyllic Tutor a try? It may help. Rite of Consumption also is something to think about for anyone running Baneslayer or Divinity.
I'm going to have to say Divinity of Pride and a few Edge of the Divinity spells is far better than Baneslayer Angel. At the least, Divinity is a 4/4 flier with lifelink. With just one Edge, we can have it at 11/11.
And yes, the argument that including Divinity will increase the average casting cost too much is not valid: just have 2 Ad Nauseum and 2 Divinity of Pride. Either will accomplish what we want.
Has anyone considered splashing red for Ajani Vengeant? Under the most ideal circumstances, we can have 2 Tainted Sigils out by turn 3, Ajani Vengeant on turn 4, and Sanguine Bond on turn 5. Using Ajani's -2 ability, our opponent would lose 6 life. After the Sigils, that 6 becomes 24. This all by turn 5.
So I ran a version of this deck (posted earlier so I won't do it again), and learned a few things.
This is how it went
Round 1--G/W Knights 1-2
Game one I won using spot removal to get to the late game when I swung with divinity of pride while a sanguine was on the table. Sideboarded in 3 solemn offerings to deal with his O-rings on my sanguine bonds and goldmanes.
Game two, he sided in white knight and elspeth, and drew both. I lost handily.
Game three I sided in PtE to deal with the white knight and 3 pithing needles to deal with elspeth, and sided out the solemn offerings. This was probably a misplay, I should have kept the pithings needles out and put in infest instead. Anyway, he landed a Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers with a Shield of the Oversoul while a Kinsbaile Cavalier was in play and stomped me with that.
Round 2--B/U Mill (Haunting Echoes) 2-0
Game one, he kept me at bay with removal, and got me down to three cards in library with two mind funerals, one Haunting Echoes, and one Nemesis of Reason. He attacked, I blocked with my Divinity of Pride, triggered my two Sangiune bond dealing him 8, sacked my tainted sigil to gain 8 more, which triggered my sanguine bonds dealing him 16 FTW.
Game two, sided in PtE, sided out Doom Blade, beat him down with Knight of Meadowgrain and Child of Knight (with three counters from Goldmane). Triggered the Ad-Nauseam combo FTW when he was at 5.
Round 3--G/R/X Haste Cascade 0-2
Game one, he beat me down before I could breathe. Game two I sided in PtE and Infest, he did it again. Nuff said.
Round 4--G/X Elves. 0-2
Game one, Mulligan down to five, he hit me with a Stigma Lasher on turn three, shutting me down. The game drug on a while, but without the ability to trigger Sanguine bond, the deck just can't get it done.
Game two, I sided in PtE and Infest. Held out for a while, but ended up with 6 swamp and 1 plains on the table holding three Knight of the Meadowgrain. Got things going finally by playing them (after Diabolic Tutoring for a plains...sigh). He swung with a Colossus and some others, I blocked and took some damage sacking my Tainted Sigil to take him down to 6(with Sanguine Bond). I PtE'd his Colossus, but didn't get much from there and he eventually beat me down.
So overall a little dissappointing, but I have hope. Despite having land problems (with my mana base I routinely ended up holding Meadowgrains/Ajani's), I think it can be tweaked to win. I'm tired right now, but I'll let you guys know when I come up with a tweaked list. Right now I'm thinking of making it more aggro based as the tainted sigil/Lifelink guys really won me all the games I did win. I'm probably gonna take Nauseam down to one (maybe) as just a finisher. I dunno....the deck just needs more for the early game right now. Anyway, any comments would be more than welcome, as I'm probably gonna keep playing this deck (or some variant) until October when the big switch happens. Thanks guys....Paul.:facepalm:
I ran the list I posted earlier at FNM with some success...
Round 1:
R/B Goblins
So start off with something I was worried about... creature hoarde. Game 1 went like I expected... I removed what I could, Infested like mad, and fogged my way to a long match in which he eventually overwhelmed me. Note: only saw 4 land total.
Games 2 and 3 went much smoother. Fogged to stall, slap down sigil, fog, bond, fog, sigil, Ad Nauseum for the win. Both games pretty similar.
2-1
Round 2:
WW (with enchantments)
Yeah, more hoarde. Game 1 was a complete beatdown of his hoarde. Infest, Doom Blade, Tendrils, and fog effects really won me some games. Pollen Lullaby rocked this one.
Game 2 went forever. Back and forth. I must have taken around 120 damage this game (no joke) before he finally was able to take over. Game 3 saw it come down to a top deck for the win (or loss). Anything... Infest, life gain, anything to win (I was at 2 life). Flip card... Sign in Blood. He wins.
Game 2 was land screw. Saw 4 land again all game. Stalled it out for a while but only so many times I can fog. Game 3 found my land again and a Runed Halo. Buh bye problems with Uril. Managed Sanguine Bond but he kept the Sigil out of the combo (O-Ring). Baneslayer Angel found its way onto the board and game-set-match.
2-1 (5-4)
Round 4:
WW- Sigil of the Empty Throne
Game 1: Infest, Doom Blade, and Tendrils rocked him. He couldnt get around them. He managed 2 Sigil of the Empty Throne and 3 Honor of the Pure, but too late. He was down in life (2) and couldnt swing until he could deal with the Goldenglow Moth's that were out (Sanguine Bond in play). Syphon Life top decked for the win.
Game 2 went as I thought it would. Turn 3 Stillmoon Cavalier, turn 4 Batwing Broom, turn 5 Hallowed Burial. While he rebuilt, I found a Ad Nauseum that drew me into Reliquary Tower, lots of Swamps, Stillmoon Cavalier, Tendrils and Sanguine Bond. Already had some fog effects in hand so dropped the Cavalier, Bond, then Tendrils and walked right through him.
2-0 (7-4)
Second Place: 3-1
Overall the deck worked like I thought it would. Fog effects were the rock stars of the deck as they kept the game stalled until I could combo out. I was worried about finding my way into battles with weenie hoards and, as expected, saw 3. Learned a few timing tricks because of them. WW is something to be reckoned with. I do want to note that a friend of mine ran a similar deck (his was more of the creature version on these forums) and he managed his way to a 2-2 overall. He couldnt deal with Elves! or WW. He did handle a Polymorph-Progenitus deck and 5cc-cascade deck.
Overall the deck worked like I thought it would. Fog effects were the rock stars of the deck as they kept the game stalled until I could combo out.
After my dismal performance last night, I'm seriously considering using more this type of build. I'm gonna do some testing with the aggro build to see if I can make it more viable, but I'm really thinking the fog route just might be the way to go. Fun Post to read BTW raiders.
My original concept included no creatures except Platinum Angel. Instead I had lots of fog/removal spells. You may not even need the Platinum Angel. Think about it:
Suppose you've got 2 Tainted Sigils out along with Sanguine Bond. Cast Ad Nauseum, lose around 10 life only. After 1 Tainted Sigil: gain back all 10 life, opponent loses 10. After the SECOND Tainted Sigil: you now gain 20 (10 of yours + opponent's 10) life, so your opponent loses another 20, for a total of 30 lost life.
With a third Tainted Sigil (with the aid of Diabolic Tutor), we can make our opponent lose 40 life, which adds up to 70 life lost after losing only 10 from Ad Nauseum.
This begs the quesiton: is Ad Nauseum even necessary? Can we achieve what we want with just a few Tainted Sigils?
I had the very same thought. There is plenty of Lifegain/link out there, and really a deck full of that stuff+sanguine bond would probably work pretty well. The real question is....is the naueam/sigil combo the icing on the cake, or the nasty side dish?
The best part about Ad Nauseam in a deck like this is it's unexpected. Anytime you have a Bond and a Sigil out, you can win the game whenever you like (for the most part, assuming you've kept your life up with creatures and Tendrils and such). This means that your opponent either no longer can tap out ever (to bluff a counter or something) or your opponent has to kill you quickly. Otherwise, the game could be over the next instant.
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
If Baneslayer gets through 1 time with Bond and Sigil out its 20dmg.
Which I hear, is some good.
Yes, Baneslayer is good; however, playing it here depends on whether you're looking to play for the Ad Nauseam combo or not. Decks that run Divinity of Pride and Baneslayer and such will have a rough time with Ad Nauseam because they can't predict whether or not the next card drawn will get them down where they need to be to win. The smaller the average CMC in this deck, the smaller increments the life is lost in and the more precise we can be. But, again, if you're going more for a B/W aggro/Bond deck, then Baneslayer is the way to go.
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
Besides, your opponent wouldn't lose 8 from the first sigil, since he only lost 4 from Goldenglow Moth.
Block: you gain 4 -> opponent loses 4
First Sigil: you gain 4 -> opponent loses 4 [cumulative 8]
Second Sigil: you gain 8 -> opponent loses 8 [cumulative 16]
This is also another problem with Ad Nauseum: its high casting cost makes it impossible to cast on the same turn we cast Sanguine Bond; we would have to wait for our next turn. And since we're most likely to tap out casting Sanguine Bond, we won't be able to counter anything our opponent throws at us. (I had also included Lapse of Certainty.) For this reason, maybe we should have something like Wall of Reverence along with Cradle of Vitality (1) to build up early life gain for protection and (2) to allow us to gain enough life at the end of the turn we cast Sanguine Bond to win the game.
Another alternative would be a fatty with Lifelink (with a lower casting cost than Sanguine Bond).
Maybe I'm being overly cautious with waiting a turn or two after casting Sanguine Bond. I don't know.
Signature created by Spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios
Baneslayer is the same CMC as Ad Nauseam and Sanguine Bond. The smaller increments arguement of lower CMCs in the deck doesnt make sense to me.
Its a big fat flying efficient beater that gives you an alternate win condition if you cannot combo out, and you can combo off of it.
It fits nearly every role in the deck that you could possibly want in a creature.
My argument is thus: when playing Ad Nauseam in combo deck where the essential pieces have CMCs of 5, 5, and 3, the average CMC of the deck is going to be high enough as it is. Running fewer high-CMC cards outside of the combo pieces will lower the average CMC of the deck enough to make a difference in your draws off Ad Nauseam and making them a little more precise to where you need them.
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
I have to agree with this.
One problem I've run into is consistency. How do we make sure to get what we need? I've tried Sign in Blood and Diabolic Tutor with no luck. I've tried adding in more control elements with no luck. Not sure what else to do.
Lowering the average CMC of your deck isnt going to change the fact that it is going to draw into 5cc cards. It doesnt make it any more precise.
Say you only have 3cc and 5cc cards in the deck, youre not magically going to draw into a 4cc card because thats the average cost.
It also doesnt matter what the CMC of the cards youre drawing unless youre under 6 life. In which case, you prolly dont want to cast Ad Nauseum in the first place.
do you not understand the purpose of having a mana "curve" in a deck?
if you have 15 5cmc spells, your run the risk of being killed by faster decks before you can build a defense.
In my mind the more lower costing cards, the more blocking and aggro detterent you can be, since I see this as the main problem with this deck besides well placed thought hemo or general disruption.
Thats why a deck with mana and all cards costing over 4 mana would never work but a deck that never goes over 3 can work quite well.
At most I could see 2 baneslayers if there is something worth replacing it with. You dont want to draw into so many high costing cards right away, theya re your finishers, you need to have something worthwhile in the field before then.
Mana-curve makes your deck overall more efficient and better flowing since you will less often end up with cards you cant play until its too late.
since this deck is not aggro, and not ramp, and doesnt have the combo gimickness of a deck like swans, it needs its mana-curve to be forgiving.
Opponent: !@#$
Okay, Ive ran thru pretty much every variable I can think of for my R/g deck, so now its time to check out my second favorite deck so far since m10. I have a couple questions.
In a deck like this, how does it handle aggro? I imagine that its quite possibly the hardest matchup for this deck.
How do you handle your early turns? versions like the one I quoted have a lot of early white costing creatures like medowgrain and finks, while great creatures, how often can you actually play them t2, t3?
Does tendrils really win games in this deck? seems like it needs a pure black deck to make it really viable.
how much lifegain hi-jinks does the deck need? divinity of pride, tainted sigils, nauseum, and sanguine bond enough? or do we need actual lifelink beaters aside from the pride?
I kinda wanted to make a version with a nice smooth curve that didnt immediatly rely on lifelink shenanigans. maybe have more hybrid W/B cards? The B/W mimic can be nice for 4 flying damage turn3. You can add the gwillion 1/1 lifelinker for 1...though not very strong.
stillmoon cavelier is immune to most types of removal aside from burn.
I also kinda like the divinity of prides enchantment since it makes b/w creatures get +3/+3 for 1 mana, making for a possible 4 power gwillion turn2 thats out of sweeper and lightning bolt range, though it sets you up for 2 for 1's.
just thinking out loud
edit: even if this deck doesnt ever become truly competitive, I want it for multiplayer fun, anyone tried it in that setting? seems like it could blow people up quite well.
Opponent: !@#$
Well right now I'm running both tutors and Sign in Blood, but on friday I intend to trade for some Liliana Vess (if I can). I think they'll work much better, though I'm not sure if I really want to run 2 vess and 2 goldmane. I suppose it'll all depend on how usefull I think goldmane is after some playtesting.
I'm also thinking about a version centered around Sanguine Bond alone with a bunch of lifelink/gain cards such as Divinity of Pride and Baneslayer Angel.........
while I like the idea I question its usefulness. Lifelink aggro decks to my mind were not that strong, all sanguine bond does is give it extra punch around turn5 at the earliest.
but its a extra punch equivalent to doubling the damage and lifegain...could be good.
Opponent: !@#$
Does tendrils really win games in this deck? seems like it needs a pure black deck to make it really viable.quote]
I cannot speak for these other decks, but for my build, aggro isnt much of an issue. I main board lots of fog effects, some spot removal, and Infest. I know I cannot deal with all aggro, but so far so good.
Tendrils, in my testing has been a decent removal spell with the obvious life gain kicker for the deck. I gave Corrupt a try but found it to be slow (cmc 6), though I like the ability to send it to the dome.
Has anyone gave Idyllic Tutor a try? It may help. Rite of Consumption also is something to think about for anyone running Baneslayer or Divinity.
And yes, the argument that including Divinity will increase the average casting cost too much is not valid: just have 2 Ad Nauseum and 2 Divinity of Pride. Either will accomplish what we want.
Has anyone considered splashing red for Ajani Vengeant? Under the most ideal circumstances, we can have 2 Tainted Sigils out by turn 3, Ajani Vengeant on turn 4, and Sanguine Bond on turn 5. Using Ajani's -2 ability, our opponent would lose 6 life. After the Sigils, that 6 becomes 24. This all by turn 5.
Ajani Vengeant is worth a try. Slot him in place of Tendrils.
This is how it went
Round 1--G/W Knights 1-2
Game one I won using spot removal to get to the late game when I swung with divinity of pride while a sanguine was on the table. Sideboarded in 3 solemn offerings to deal with his O-rings on my sanguine bonds and goldmanes.
Game two, he sided in white knight and elspeth, and drew both. I lost handily.
Game three I sided in PtE to deal with the white knight and 3 pithing needles to deal with elspeth, and sided out the solemn offerings. This was probably a misplay, I should have kept the pithings needles out and put in infest instead. Anyway, he landed a Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers with a Shield of the Oversoul while a Kinsbaile Cavalier was in play and stomped me with that.
Round 2--B/U Mill (Haunting Echoes) 2-0
Game one, he kept me at bay with removal, and got me down to three cards in library with two mind funerals, one Haunting Echoes, and one Nemesis of Reason. He attacked, I blocked with my Divinity of Pride, triggered my two Sangiune bond dealing him 8, sacked my tainted sigil to gain 8 more, which triggered my sanguine bonds dealing him 16 FTW.
Game two, sided in PtE, sided out Doom Blade, beat him down with Knight of Meadowgrain and Child of Knight (with three counters from Goldmane). Triggered the Ad-Nauseam combo FTW when he was at 5.
Round 3--G/R/X Haste Cascade 0-2
Game one, he beat me down before I could breathe. Game two I sided in PtE and Infest, he did it again. Nuff said.
Round 4--G/X Elves. 0-2
Game one, Mulligan down to five, he hit me with a Stigma Lasher on turn three, shutting me down. The game drug on a while, but without the ability to trigger Sanguine bond, the deck just can't get it done.
Game two, I sided in PtE and Infest. Held out for a while, but ended up with 6 swamp and 1 plains on the table holding three Knight of the Meadowgrain. Got things going finally by playing them (after Diabolic Tutoring for a plains...sigh). He swung with a Colossus and some others, I blocked and took some damage sacking my Tainted Sigil to take him down to 6(with Sanguine Bond). I PtE'd his Colossus, but didn't get much from there and he eventually beat me down.
So overall a little dissappointing, but I have hope. Despite having land problems (with my mana base I routinely ended up holding Meadowgrains/Ajani's), I think it can be tweaked to win. I'm tired right now, but I'll let you guys know when I come up with a tweaked list. Right now I'm thinking of making it more aggro based as the tainted sigil/Lifelink guys really won me all the games I did win. I'm probably gonna take Nauseam down to one (maybe) as just a finisher. I dunno....the deck just needs more for the early game right now. Anyway, any comments would be more than welcome, as I'm probably gonna keep playing this deck (or some variant) until October when the big switch happens. Thanks guys....Paul.:facepalm:
4x Tainted Sigil
4x Sanguine Bond
Creatures
4x Knight of Meadowngrain
3x Divinity of Pride
2x Child of Knight
4x Nip Gwyllion
2x Voracious Hatchling
3x Edge of The Divinity
4x Doom Blade
4x Path to Exile
PW
2x Ajani Goldmane
Land
10x Swamp
10x Plains
4x Terramorphic Expanse
4x Solemn offering
4x Deathmark
Though now I am going to bed....sweet sweet bed.....
EDIT: added deathmark to sideboard.
Round 1:
R/B Goblins
So start off with something I was worried about... creature hoarde. Game 1 went like I expected... I removed what I could, Infested like mad, and fogged my way to a long match in which he eventually overwhelmed me. Note: only saw 4 land total.
Sideboard in: 3 Celestial Purge Out: 3 Goldenglow Moth
Games 2 and 3 went much smoother. Fogged to stall, slap down sigil, fog, bond, fog, sigil, Ad Nauseum for the win. Both games pretty similar.
2-1
Round 2:
WW (with enchantments)
Yeah, more hoarde. Game 1 was a complete beatdown of his hoarde. Infest, Doom Blade, Tendrils, and fog effects really won me some games. Pollen Lullaby rocked this one.
Sideboard in: 3 Solemn Offering, 2 Stillmoon Cavalier Out: 2 Sign in Blood, 3 Infest
Game 2 went forever. Back and forth. I must have taken around 120 damage this game (no joke) before he finally was able to take over. Game 3 saw it come down to a top deck for the win (or loss). Anything... Infest, life gain, anything to win (I was at 2 life). Flip card... Sign in Blood. He wins.
1-2 (3-3)
Round 3:
Naya Enchantments (Uril, Mesa Enchantress, etc)
Game 1: Uril finds Scourge of the Noblis and 2 Shield of the Oversoul. Thank God for fog effects again. I was able to stall until combo.
Sideboard In: 3 Solemn Offering, 3 Runed Halo, 2 Stillmoon Cavalier Out: 3 Infest, 3 Sign in Blood, 2 Goldenglow Moth
Game 2 was land screw. Saw 4 land again all game. Stalled it out for a while but only so many times I can fog. Game 3 found my land again and a Runed Halo. Buh bye problems with Uril. Managed Sanguine Bond but he kept the Sigil out of the combo (O-Ring). Baneslayer Angel found its way onto the board and game-set-match.
2-1 (5-4)
Round 4:
WW- Sigil of the Empty Throne
Game 1: Infest, Doom Blade, and Tendrils rocked him. He couldnt get around them. He managed 2 Sigil of the Empty Throne and 3 Honor of the Pure, but too late. He was down in life (2) and couldnt swing until he could deal with the Goldenglow Moth's that were out (Sanguine Bond in play). Syphon Life top decked for the win.
Sideboard In: 3 Solemn Offering, 2 Hallowed Burial, 2 Stillmoon Cavalier Out: 3 Sign in Blood, 1 Ad Nauseum, 3 Goldenglow Moth
Game 2 went as I thought it would. Turn 3 Stillmoon Cavalier, turn 4 Batwing Broom, turn 5 Hallowed Burial. While he rebuilt, I found a Ad Nauseum that drew me into Reliquary Tower, lots of Swamps, Stillmoon Cavalier, Tendrils and Sanguine Bond. Already had some fog effects in hand so dropped the Cavalier, Bond, then Tendrils and walked right through him.
2-0 (7-4)
Second Place: 3-1
Overall the deck worked like I thought it would. Fog effects were the rock stars of the deck as they kept the game stalled until I could combo out. I was worried about finding my way into battles with weenie hoards and, as expected, saw 3. Learned a few timing tricks because of them. WW is something to be reckoned with. I do want to note that a friend of mine ran a similar deck (his was more of the creature version on these forums) and he managed his way to a 2-2 overall. He couldnt deal with Elves! or WW. He did handle a Polymorph-Progenitus deck and 5cc-cascade deck.
After my dismal performance last night, I'm seriously considering using more this type of build. I'm gonna do some testing with the aggro build to see if I can make it more viable, but I'm really thinking the fog route just might be the way to go. Fun Post to read BTW raiders.
3 Sanguine Bond
Creatures
3 Divinity of Pride
3 Voracious Hatchling
3 Nip Gwyllion
Other Spells
4 Edge of the Divinity
4 Silence
4 Batwing Brume
4 Path to Exile
4 Doom Blade
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Fetid Heath
8 Plains
8 Swamp
4 Solemn Offering
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Unmake
3 Deathmark
Not going to run any fog effects?