Hammers so-so against toast, you basically have to hope they don't have an answer, its pretty easy to get lucky with this card though. So do you want luck or consistency? I guess its up to you.
Point of resounding thunder? I forgot, don't you have to cycle cards at sorcery speed?
no uncounterable instants. also hammer is bad against toast they have 2-4 bant charms, counter backup, and can bounce it on you. you don't want to tap out on your turn and get crueled
@johm: no offense meant, but i think you must either have misspoke or you're playing the card wrong. vendy clique puts a card on the _bottom_ of the opp's library (or lets you cycle a card...). unless they tutor for it or somehow shuffle it back to the top, they won't be playing that card. that's very good news for anything running lark or mannequin.
EDIT: yes, i know the hammer's drawbacks, esp. against control. so... resounding thunder = instant speed, uncounterable 6 to the dome. i guess we're just aiming to vclique/tseize it? or win before we drop into burn range? that's all i can think of/what i've been doing in testing. (that's an argument for puppeteer cliquee in my mind). i refuse to run pithing needle... it's too narrow.
EDIT: yes, i know the hammer's drawbacks, esp. against control. so... resounding thunder = instant speed, uncounterable 6 to the dome. i guess we're just aiming to vclique/tseize it? or win before we drop into burn range? that's all i can think of... i refuse to run pithing needle... it's too narrow.
4 seize and 2 vcliques should be enough to take card of them. also try picking up your bb with mistbind or cryptic before dropping below 6
Look at standard lists. Most, if not all run at least 12 creatures. Compare this to the usual 2-7 in Extended control lists. There's a higher chance of them drawing another threat from it. Sure, you get some information that will help with your play but they keep one card hidden. And you might take away something to give them something even better. I don't think the Clique cuts it in Standard.
There is actually one main reason as to not run both 2 Sower and 2 Clique. Space. Right now, my list is as close I think it gets to optimal and I cannot think of anything to cut to make space for V. Clique.
And also, the Clique is a 3/1. Bitterblossom runs rampant in today's meta, whether in one form or another, as does Mogg Fanatic. There's plenty of ways to deal with it that don't do anything to Sower. The highest I'd go is 1 Vendilion Clique sb v control to make sure iI have the 5 discard effects. But then, I have better weapons v control.
you know if the opponnet isn't holding anything spectacular you can choose to not take anything right? also you can target yourself and get rid of an excess bitterblossom late game to try to fish out answers
...There is actually one main reason as to not run both 2 Sower and 2 Clique. Space. Right now, my list is as close I think it gets to optimal and I cannot think of anything to cut to make space for V. Clique.
You're making a mistake with Vendilion Clique, it cuts it in Standard and it does its job very very well. Numerous results have proven this to be a great inclusion to the deck, so your opinion is disproved.
Regarding your reason of space, even if you were playing the standard fae package of spells/creatures you usually have around 6 slots to play around with. As a previous poster says, unless you're running some secret tech you absolutely will have space for both Vendilion Clique and Sower of Temptation.
Vendilion Clique has a lot of subtle plays and is great to deal with manlands, cycle excess Bitterblossoms, take away removal from your Sowers and be a general pain to players. As a bonus it is a good clock and adds pressure to an opponent. You must not be playing it right if you're saying you've had appauling results with it.
But then again we've debated Vendilion Clique and Sower of Temptation to death in this thread since March... so if you've made up your mind - go ahead.
I was wondering if anyone had tried out Glen Elendra Liege as an anti-RDW sideboard option... I've found the games I've won against RDW were when I got double-Scion out, and although it doesn't give the protection of shroud to a Scion, it speeds up our clock and protects Scions from top-decked Fanatics. Even if you only got in there once, EOT Scion, follow-up Liege requires two significant burn spells to deal with (Pyroclasm would still leave the Liege behind), speed up your clock by a turn, or potentially trade a 4/4 Figure or 5/4 Demigod for 1 3/3 token (blocking with 2)... not saying it's a good thought, but nothing else has seemed to work so far
I was wondering if anyone had tried out Glen Elendra Liege as an anti-RDW sideboard option... I've found the games I've won against RDW were when I got double-Scion out, and although it doesn't give the protection of shroud to a Scion, it speeds up our clock and protects Scions from top-decked Fanatics. Even if you only got in there once, EOT Scion, follow-up Liege requires two significant burn spells to deal with (Pyroclasm would still leave the Liege behind), speed up your clock by a turn, or potentially trade a 4/4 Figure or 5/4 Demigod for 1 3/3 token (blocking with 2)... not saying it's a good thought, but nothing else has seemed to work so far
If you have 2x Scion of Oona in play, they give each other Shroud...
1st, GE Liege doesn't have flash
2nd, it's 4cc
3rd, while this thing survives pyroclasm/j charm, the rest of your team won't with this thing out (even if you have a scion on the board).
i appreciate the fact that it can accelerate your clock, but those are some significant drawbacks.
I mean, it's still not a good idea, but I thought I'd help him clarify.
haha, yea using this card would most likely make your matchup worst or just take up space in your sideboard. run flashfreeze if you want some help for red. at least that can be used in other mu's too.
red is our worst matchup and theirs not a ton we can do about it. if your lucky you might not even see it all day
I've been playing Faeries since rotation and I think I'm getting the hang of it but I was hoping to get some advice on sideboarding. I'm using the list LSV posted in his SCG article a couple weeks back:
These are the sideboarding plans I've come up with. In particular I'm wondering about the mirror. I don't have much experience with that and am really just guessing. Any advice is appreciated.
5-Color:
+2 Negate, +2 Mind Shatter, +1 Thoughtseize, +2 Archmage
-4 Agony Warp, -2 Scion, -1 Sower
Are we really that desperate to use glen elendra liege against rdw? Really liege isnt a good card and i dont believe it is going to help much generally. If we are going to run a 4 cc faerie card that hasnt flash then i would definately use sower instead for various reasons.
Also black lotus read better before you comment next time he doesnt say that double scion doesnt give shroud to each other, he says that glen elendra siege doesnt give shroud to scion.
That got clarified a couple posts back - no, the matchup against RDW isn't that desperate. Pack Flashfreezes, or just hope to dodge on Saturday.
Im leaving in about an hour to go test my 5cc Control Match up with my fae list. How is the match up? From you that have tested it how is it? i am currently Playing 3 Sower MD as my Metagame call. I have 3 Puppeteer Clique in the SB which I plan to bring in for sower after Sb. What is your thoughts on this? I also bring in 4 FlashFreeze and 2 additional Thoughtseize. Please give useful Comments. I am not going to give you my list But I am curious on your thoughts on these. ( and if you cant figure my list out with which I just gave you haha!) I am already confident on my kithkin match up, Elf, Doran match up. And rev? hm... havent really ever had a problem with rev unles they feel like going fulm fulm lark fulm fulm.. Then I scoop.
I am expecting alot of slower/control decks so I have main. I am deciding on 2 or 3 now. its 2 and a hammer or 3 and no hammer at all.. Thoughts on Warhammer in Kithkin, RDW, Doran, QNT Match Ups? I cant see where its good because kithkin to slow and all the others they have mass removal..? and for The Mirror I am not sure how its going to stick kinda
if you want to play jace play 2 jace and 3 maindeck thoughtseize. hammer is no good. it's too slow. 4 flashfreeze 3 puppeteer cliques is too much at least go 3 flash 2 puppeteer 2 negate. that will help you more and be useful in the mirror
if you want to play jace play 2 jace and 3 maindeck thoughtseize. hammer is no good. it's too slow. 4 flashfreeze 3 puppeteer cliques is too much at least go 3 flash 2 puppeteer 2 negate. that will help you more and be useful in the mirror
Loxodon Warhammer is bad? I have not yet seen a proven list that doesn't run em since rotation. In fact, I now run 2 maindeck.
Loxodon Warhammer is bad? I have not yet seen a proven list that doesn't run em since rotation. In fact, I now run 2 maindeck.
Trag3dy
in my testing it hasn't been worth it. what matchups do you want it? red. thats a hard match we will probably lose with or without it. its so slow you tap out two turns early or one turn late. which can be devestating. against toast it's basically a dead card they have too many ways of dealing with it/playing around it. against kithkin there is better stuff. personally i dropped it and haven't missed it
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no uncounterable instants. also hammer is bad against toast they have 2-4 bant charms, counter backup, and can bounce it on you. you don't want to tap out on your turn and get crueled
EDIT: yes, i know the hammer's drawbacks, esp. against control. so... resounding thunder = instant speed, uncounterable 6 to the dome. i guess we're just aiming to vclique/tseize it? or win before we drop into burn range? that's all i can think of/what i've been doing in testing. (that's an argument for puppeteer cliquee in my mind). i refuse to run pithing needle... it's too narrow.
are there any answers i'm missing?
My Trades
Far out, man
4 seize and 2 vcliques should be enough to take card of them. also try picking up your bb with mistbind or cryptic before dropping below 6
You must be kidding right? Vendilion Clique is insane. I'd never go below two, unless I side them out in the mirror.
There is no reason not to run Vendilion Clique and Sower of Temptation. Why are people debating this anyways?
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you know if the opponnet isn't holding anything spectacular you can choose to not take anything right? also you can target yourself and get rid of an excess bitterblossom late game to try to fish out answers
You're making a mistake with Vendilion Clique, it cuts it in Standard and it does its job very very well. Numerous results have proven this to be a great inclusion to the deck, so your opinion is disproved.
Regarding your reason of space, even if you were playing the standard fae package of spells/creatures you usually have around 6 slots to play around with. As a previous poster says, unless you're running some secret tech you absolutely will have space for both Vendilion Clique and Sower of Temptation.
Vendilion Clique has a lot of subtle plays and is great to deal with manlands, cycle excess Bitterblossoms, take away removal from your Sowers and be a general pain to players. As a bonus it is a good clock and adds pressure to an opponent. You must not be playing it right if you're saying you've had appauling results with it.
But then again we've debated Vendilion Clique and Sower of Temptation to death in this thread since March... so if you've made up your mind - go ahead.
johm, it's really, really good. i'd shuffle it up and try it again.
My Trades
Far out, man
My Trades
Far out, man
If you have 2x Scion of Oona in play, they give each other Shroud...
2nd, it's 4cc
3rd, while this thing survives pyroclasm/j charm, the rest of your team won't with this thing out (even if you have a scion on the board).
i appreciate the fact that it can accelerate your clock, but those are some significant drawbacks.
My Trades
Far out, man
He knows.
He was just saying that having another "lord" would imitate the pump effects of a double Scion.
I mean, it's still not a good idea, but I thought I'd help him clarify.
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haha, yea using this card would most likely make your matchup worst or just take up space in your sideboard. run flashfreeze if you want some help for red. at least that can be used in other mu's too.
red is our worst matchup and theirs not a ton we can do about it. if your lucky you might not even see it all day
4 Mistbind Clique
3 Scion Of Oona
3 Sower Of Temptation
4 Spellstutter Sprite
Instants
4 Agony Warp
4 Cryptic Command
2 Remove Soul
Legendary Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers
3 Jace Beleren
3 Thoughtseize
Tribal Enchantments
4 Bitterblossom
Basic Lands
4 Island
3 Swamp
Lands
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Mutavault
4 Secluded Glen
4 Sunken Ruins
4 Underground River
1 Thoughtseize
2 Mind Shatter
1 Puppeteer Clique
3 Infest
2 Negate
2 Flashfreeze
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Bottle Gnomes
These are the sideboarding plans I've come up with. In particular I'm wondering about the mirror. I don't have much experience with that and am really just guessing. Any advice is appreciated.
5-Color:
+2 Negate, +2 Mind Shatter, +1 Thoughtseize, +2 Archmage
-4 Agony Warp, -2 Scion, -1 Sower
Faeries:
+1 Thoughtseize, +2 Mind Shatter, +2 Negate, +2 Archmage
-4 Agony Warp, -2 Vendillion Clique?, -1 Sower
Red:
+2 Bottle Gnomes, +2 Flashfreeze, (+3 Infest if they seem vulnerable to it)
-3 Thoughtseize, -1 Sower, (-2 Sower, -1 Jace if Infest comes in)
Reveillark:
+1 Thoughtseize, +2 Mind Shatter, +1 Puppeteer Clique
-1 Agony Warp, -3 Scion
Kithkin:
+3 Infest
-3 Thoughtseize
O....k....I guess.
That got clarified a couple posts back - no, the matchup against RDW isn't that desperate. Pack Flashfreezes, or just hope to dodge on Saturday.
That sounds like good advice. Thank you.
Loxodon Warhammer is bad? I have not yet seen a proven list that doesn't run em since rotation. In fact, I now run 2 maindeck.
Trag3dy
in my testing it hasn't been worth it. what matchups do you want it? red. thats a hard match we will probably lose with or without it. its so slow you tap out two turns early or one turn late. which can be devestating. against toast it's basically a dead card they have too many ways of dealing with it/playing around it. against kithkin there is better stuff. personally i dropped it and haven't missed it