I just went 5-0-1 at my FNM last night and came in First (technically) at the end with the deck list that I posted earlier. It was one of the most crowded FNM's I had played at my normal place, so I got to play against a good range of tough decks against some good players.
SB choices were explained in my other post so go back to page 23 or 24 to see why I went with such an SB. This SB did pretty much exactly what I was hoping for except I think I am going to ditch one oblivion ring for one more wispmare next time (too many people play Glorious anthem). I also want to add 1 Loxodon Warhammer to the main deck in place of that singleton oblivion ring. KoM did exactly what I was hoping for that finks and KotWO weren't delivering on. Having just the 2 SGC seemed sufficient but I kind of want to up it back to three. Taking out mana ramping and upping to 24 lands seemed to work exactly as needed as well. I was only Stuck on 3 land for a few turns in one game. I think I also might ditch one reflecting pool for the white man land.
2-0 : Against a first time FNM player, so she got crushed pretty hard.
2-0 : Against an experienced Faerie player, First round I got to Armageddon him with Ajani Vengeant which felt pretty gratifying. Honestly I have never had a problem with Fae the entire time I have been playing this deck for the last month and barely even SB anything in against them. Pretty much just wispmare for blossoms in place of KoM.
2-0 : Against White/Blue Reveillark (this player later beat the other vengeant lark player during top 8 and came in 4th) Also got to Armageddon him with Ajani in the first round.
2-1 : Kithkin, against an experienced player that was just getting back into the game recently. He gave me my only game loss in swiss.
Draw : I got matched up with the only other Vengeant Lark player there and since we are friends we just decided to draw out of Vengeant Lark respect. However I find his deck a much better design for the mirror match, since he uses 4 glorious Anthems and becomes extra agressive with Spectral Procession early on. So I probably would have lost to him.
2-0 : Against an experienced player helming an elfball deck. I got stuck on three lands in the first round and was taken down to 4, but I topdecked a plains the next turn for a wrath and he never regained board control after that. The second round I always had enough fanatics and incinerates to prevent him from getting rolling, and didnt need to wrath.
in top 8
2-0 : against the same Elfball deck, He didn't manage board control in either game this time.
2-1 : Against a guy's awesome Sarkin Vol heavy RGB token/aggro deck. Not really a Jund deck despite the colors. Was like Sarkin/Garruk/Blossoms/finks/collossus/Torrent. Which normally that deck can go toe to toe with Vengeant lark easily as long as he hits his 4 mana in time. But I manages to kill his birds of paradise in the beginning of the first round to make him lose tempo. He swarmed me in the second round, and I offed his birds again early in the third round and plowed in with figures.
I just did a high roll for who got to claim first, so I can't say that I actually won the last round. It was 3 am and we just wanted to leave. So we rolled for it and split the packs even. He was playing a somewhat dated Merfolk deck so I don't know how I would do against it, since I haven't tested against merfolk ever with this deck. It has been pretty dead in my meta.
The card that I just don't want to include out of wanting to try something different from my meta is Glorious Anthem. However, I honestly think it becomes a huge bomb for this deck, when you drop a spectral, then the next turn drop anthem and swing for 6 flying. All in all, a really fun night and it was my first time getting past semi finals in the 7 months I have been playing at that local FNM.
I think 4 responses are too many I think, 2-3 should be fine. Otherwise, that sb looks fine.
One question: what are the best cards vs BW Tokens. Surprisingly, I haven't come across this deck very much at all, but probably will eventually. In theory I was thinking Stillmoons would own them, as all their cards are black or white. Or are board sweepers enough, and which ones, Clasms or Wraths?
I have o rings in my SB and Wispmares against BW tokens. It is a pretty frequently played deck in my meta, so having AJani to time paradox kill their goldmanes, plus larkable enchant killers for blossoms, and the O rings for either Ajani or Blossoms. Otherwise the rest of the deck goes pretty toe to toe.
I think 4 responses are too many I think, 2-3 should be fine. Otherwise, that sb looks fine.
I disagree. With a response in hand (and its always handy to draw one), you really can change the game. They may do something knowing that they have a cryptic to tap down your creatures on your turn, but with the response you can avoid that and, in my case last night, swing in for lethal damage.
I think that four against 5C is fine, 4 is too many Vs faeries. They have things like TS and Vendillion to anticipate it, and spellstutter and fairly often Scion to act as counterspells without being blue instants.
I think that four against 5C is fine, 4 is too many Vs faeries. They have things like TS and Vendillion to anticipate it, and spellstutter and fairly often Scion to act as counterspells without being blue instants.
Spellstutter is enough to make guttural not worth playing against faeries to me. If the Fae player is smart and knows you sb them, they will just try to use spell stutter when convenient to ignore the usefulness of Gutteral and cryptic when you tap out. Also, I think this deck pre-boarded stands toe to toe with Fae easily. I'd rather have a wispmare on turn three (after SB) to kill a blossom than a gutteral at any other point in the game to stop a cryptic.
Unfortunately I haven't played against any 5cc at my FNM, but I'd probably want a full set of gutturals if I knew a lot of people were using that deck. Since it can stop a negate/remove soul/whatever, or just force them to use another counter on the gutteral to make their cryptic go through.
Suggestions for improving MD or building SB are welcome.
Personally I don't like having both KoM and KotWO in the deck at the same time. I also think that if you don't use Orchid, up it to 24-25 lands. I also much prefer Meadograin over Orchid but this is a choice that has been discussed at length through this thread and is just a matter of personal taste.
4 tenders seems a bit much. So far I also don't think Ranger of Eos needs to be a 4 of. I always seem to draw at least one, if not two in most games. If I get 2 into play I have already drawn most likely drawn at least two other one drops, so I feel like you can skimp on one.
I also endorse ghitu encampments for this deck. Having them block with a knight for first strike damage on a larger creature has been used to great effect for me.
As for SB tips, check the decklists that have been posted and see who had success with what and in what meta games and go from there. You will pretty much find Gutturals, stillmoons, voice of all, wraths, and some enchant hate of some variety in most of them.
Spellstutter is enough to make guttural not worth playing against faeries to me. If the Fae player is smart and knows you sb them, they will just try to use spell stutter when convenient to ignore the usefulness of Gutteral and cryptic when you tap out. Also, I think this deck pre-boarded stands toe to toe with Fae easily. I'd rather have a wispmare on turn three (after SB) to kill a blossom than a gutteral at any other point in the game to stop a cryptic.
Unfortunately I haven't played against any 5cc at my FNM, but I'd probably want a full set of gutturals if I knew a lot of people were using that deck. Since it can stop a negate/remove soul/whatever, or just force them to use another counter on the gutteral to make their cryptic go through.
Spellstutter Sprite can be annoying, but that's why you pair Gutterals with Vexing Shusher. Yes, Vendilion can still be a problem, but it is a legend, so only so many can be played. I say 3 & 3 of Vexing/Gutterals is perfect for this deck against Fae or 5cc (depending a bit on their list).
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Spellstutter Sprite can be annoying, but that's why you pair Gutterals with Vexing Shusher. Yes, Vendilion can still be a problem, but it is a legend, so only so many can be played. I say 3 & 3 of Vexing/Gutterals is perfect for this deck against Fae or 5cc (depending a bit on their list).
Vexing shusher is also a card that I wouldn't use against fae at all. Against 5 color control, yeah I can definitely see its merits. But against fae they have at least 4 outs against it depending on the build (and more for more creative players). they can sower it (being the least worrysome) they can cryptic bounce it, or they can just agony warp it (which would be the most likely. After SB a lot of Fae use infest, so that handles the shusher as well.
The fact that shusher is larkable makes it definitely useful for the match up I would guess, but so far my record against fae feels like their counters just arent a big deal if you maindeck incinerate and mogg fanatic. Escpecially if you sb some enchant hate for bitter blossom. If you neuter the blossoms, their counters dont even feel remotely as threatening, since nothing is counting down to your demise.
People seem to think that incinerate isn't that great for fae since it can't kill a mist bind. but we have other outs like hard casting a lark to block, or combining smart blocks with incinerate. Also just letting them attack with it and dropping an Ajani vengeant to keep it tapped down while you buy some time to get what you need. So far my strategy has been more about having an instant response removal to their instant plays and to not worry about their counters. since Rune snag and Ancestral vision went out, they just don't normally have as much counter gas as they used to.
But I mean, if it has been netting you victories agaisnt fae I say keep rolling with it. The thing that rules so much about this deck is how vastly it can vary and remain effective. Even the older builds with redcaps/mindstones is still a strong match up for fae.
Personally I don't like having both KoM and KotWO in the deck at the same time. I also think that if you don't use Orchid, up it to 24-25 lands. I also much prefer Meadograin over Orchid but this is a choice that has been discussed at length through this thread and is just a matter of personal taste.
4 tenders seems a bit much. So far I also don't think Ranger of Eos needs to be a 4 of. I always seem to draw at least one, if not two in most games. If I get 2 into play I have already drawn most likely drawn at least two other one drops, so I feel like you can skimp on one.
I also endorse ghitu encampments for this deck. Having them block with a knight for first strike damage on a larger creature has been used to great effect for me.
As for SB tips, check the decklists that have been posted and see who had success with what and in what meta games and go from there. You will pretty much find Gutturals, stillmoons, voice of all, wraths, and some enchant hate of some variety in most of them.
I agree with the first part entirely. I also go 25 lands, and Meadowgrain > Orchard. Having both is a little redundant.
On to Ranger of Eos- he is definitely a 4 of. He's like our mulldrifter. You have 9 one drops and you'd never be upset to get even 3 Rangers in a game, as you'll still have plenty of good targets and it'll keep you loaded with gas. Encampments look interesting also. I'll try them out.
Vexing shusher is also a card that I wouldn't use against fae at all. Against 5 color control, yeah I can definitely see its merits. But against fae they have at least 4 outs against it depending on the build (and more for more creative players). they can sower it (being the least worrysome) they can cryptic bounce it, or they can just agony warp it (which would be the most likely. After SB a lot of Fae use infest, so that handles the shusher as well.
The fact that shusher is larkable makes it definitely useful for the match up I would guess, but so far my record against fae feels like their counters just arent a big deal if you maindeck incinerate and mogg fanatic. Escpecially if you sb some enchant hate for bitter blossom. If you neuter the blossoms, their counters dont even feel remotely as threatening, since nothing is counting down to your demise.
People seem to think that incinerate isn't that great for fae since it can't kill a mist bind. but we have other outs like hard casting a lark to block, or combining smart blocks with incinerate. Also just letting them attack with it and dropping an Ajani vengeant to keep it tapped down while you buy some time to get what you need. So far my strategy has been more about having an instant response removal to their instant plays and to not worry about their counters. since Rune snag and Ancestral vision went out, they just don't normally have as much counter gas as they used to.
But I mean, if it has been netting you victories agaisnt fae I say keep rolling with it. The thing that rules so much about this deck is how vastly it can vary and remain effective. Even the older builds with redcaps/mindstones is still a strong match up for fae.
Yeah, good points all. Incinerate, or any burn is really good vs fae, as you are the aggro in that match, and you can get them low on life real quick. Then incinerate to the dome works just fine. Fae is not that hard a match that you need to devote 6x slots to it, especially just anti-counter stuff. Wispmare is usually just more useful for me.
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I use MWS, pm me if you're interested in testing with me.
try looping with a Siege-Gang Commander in the graveyard. just try some stuff out please, before you insist something is useless/crap/garbage. maybe try to make a personal inquiry in your head about why people suggest/play certain cards before saying "nah, its crap. i'll go post and tell 'em."
So, you are saying I've played SGC, it was countered, resolved Ranger, and they dealt with it + Figure, and then I'm resolving Lark?
How common is that?
Note how I'm discounting SGC resolving the first time, as that should kill them.
And TwOn Eight, I'm done arguing this with you. I've shown how adding lands mathematically adds value up to 25. The only reason to cut lands is, as gerryT discussed in an article, if you feel your only out is to mise people by drawing more gas to win close games, rather then out play them.
Oh, and Shusher is crap. If they have pressure + Cryptic needing to get Gutteraled + a backup Stutter, pretty sure its over anyways. Answers to their answers to our answers just seems so narrow.... plus making RR on 2 is awk without Prairie, especially without the extra red source from 25 lands....
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Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone
To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
I agree that it's not always easy to have 2 available t2, though many times it is possible. On your point that "shusher is crap," that's just not correct. I've had several games where I've SB'd it in against Fae or 5CC and they've completely had to change their game plan with it out, especially with the Gutteral to back it up. I hope you've actually tested this, instead of just refusing to consider it b/c you don't like the person who offered it up.
I agree that it's not always easy to have 2 R available t2, though many times it is possible. On your point that "shusher is crap," that's just not correct. I've had several games where I've SB'd it in against Fae or 5CC and they've completely had to change their game plan with it out, especially with the Gutteral to back it up. I hope you've actually tested this, instead of just refusing to consider it b/c you don't like the person who offered it up.
I haven't tested it, but my reason for thinking it is bad has nothing to do with our previous disagreement, and the fact you are using that to try to discredit me is amusing.
Post board, the reasons you lose to Fae are not usually counterspells. The reasons you lose are 1) getting relevantly Time Walked by Clique/Cryptic, 2) getting into Infest or Sower blow outs and 3) Random cards you can't really remove like Warhammer or Razormane Masticore. Shusher not only is easily dealt with, especially by Infest, but only applies in scenario as an answer to their answer to your answer for their answer to your threats, or in the rare case you are at 6 mana and dependent upon resolving SGC, which usually only happens when they do something like Infest on 4 on the play (earlier means you have time to run stuff/threats into their counters anyways) with Blossom without a Clique when you don't have Figure before then or something relevant the turn after Infest.
Vs Fae, I want all threats and primary answers to their main problem cards, not answers to back up my first answers that don't even serve their secondary purpose of being a thread well due to being a x/2 without First Strike or Pro-Black. Shusher is good in strategies where you are the control vs. Fae where you are trying to resolve answers to their threats as your direct way to win, but this deck is definitely not one of those decks. Fae is definitely the control here, and Shusher is not a tempo card like you want.
Well, I would prefer it's tested before declaring "it's crap." Many things are great on paper that are not in game, and vice versa. Without the actual testing to back it up, your point feels a bit lacking.
The fact is, when it hits the board, and it will, it forces them to work around it. May they have answers? Of course... but every card has answers to it. That doesn't mean you don't play it.
I would however agree that it can screw up the Figure mana, which is why it's usually played at a later time, or after a Figure has already been bounced.
On that subject, what do you all think of the FoD vs Fae or 5cc? It seems to require so much mana dedication to just get bounced to hand, especially if you're not playing Gutterals. Thoughts?
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
I really haven't had any trouble against fae. Usually the pressure's on too fast to allow them to play their game, instead their forced to play defensive to ours. Yeah, you'll see counters, but usually their wasting counters on small stuff that really doesn't effect our strategy, b/c their playing catch up.
The last part is the key part. Shusher doesn't answer any of their real threats, just their lesser answers.
Oh, and if you think FoD is bad in a matchup EVER, you are doing it wrong. Maybe consider other plans of action if you have the option between being blown out after pumping it by bounce or something else. The only time I've ever considered it anything but perfect is vs. BW Tokens, where its less then optimal to Ranger for over Fanatic as your goal by that point is usually A) keeping them off Heights or B) nugging them. And even then, there's nothing I would rather play on T1 or T2 and on the play I would almost always rather just activate it on 2 and 3 then do anything else.
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Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone
To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
I wouldn't say the FoD is a bad match up against Fae, I was only saying it felt more mana intensive, and yeah... it is annoying when a 8/8 get's bounced.
On the Shusher, I see your point. I guess my only issue with dropping it, is that it's made such a difference in my 5CC match ups, that I wouldn't want to eliminate it.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
I wouldn't say the FoD is a bad match up against Fae, I was only saying it felt more mana intensive, and yeah... it is annoying when a 8/8 get's bounced.
On the Shusher, I see your point. I guess my only issue with dropping it, is that it's made such a difference in my 5CC match ups, that I wouldn't want to eliminate it.
If it has done well for your 5 color control match ups then keep it in the SB. I just don't think it is particularly helpful against fae. So far there have been multiple times where with fanatics and incinerates, I have been able to eliminate all of their champion options when they try to drop a clique, thus forcing them to sac it. Playing to control the counters against fae is definitely a clunky method compared to just having instant response to their weak little critters.
If it has done well for your 5 color control match ups then keep it in the SB. I just don't think it is particularly helpful against fae. So far there have been multiple times where with fanatics and incinerates, I have been able to eliminate all of their champion options when they try to drop a clique, thus forcing them to sac it. Playing to control the counters against fae is definitely a clunky method compared to just having instant response to their weak little critters.
Yeah, I suppose I should have prefaced it by saying there are currently no Fae players in my meta. There are 3-4 (depending on the night) 5CC players, however, so that match-up is obviously much more important to me. Our last Fae player converted to Kithkin because he couldn't afford to use the cards needed for Fae to be competitive.
EDIT: checking out Deckcheck.net saw some interesting choices. What do you all think of Ancient Amphitheater here? Also, is anyone currently running 4x Siege-Gang? If so, how has it effected your mana curve, have you had to make any other changes?
as common as your opponent being able to answer all that.
Yeah.. it's most likely not going to happen.
Though, I did have a game against 5cc last week, where I played 2 SGCs in one turn, both of which were countered, then evoked 'Lark the next turn to return both of them to the field, and then sac'd half of them to win the game.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
I would agree with that... and I wont be too worried about a Fae match up until I attend a major event. So, it would make sense for me to keep them around.
So, any thoughts on the Ancient Amphitheater? I've been testing it out replacing my 5 Plains/3 Mountain split as 5 Plains/3 AA, and so far it's not been too bad. There has been an issue or two with the opening hand being a Windbrisk & an Amphitheater, but it usually works out just fine. I drop the Amphitheater first, as both the FoD & Fanatic can be played off of it.
Thoughts?
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
I am not sold on amphitheater, but I can see it being decent. I already main deck 2 ghitu encampments, so I don't like having more than 6 come into play tapped lands in the deck. The windbrisks being the other 4 obviously. You could probably save yourself some money and just use a vivid meadow/crag, or Savage lands instead and get the same effect, since the amphitheater is never coming into play untapped.
Also, when Path to exile comes out, having the basic land will be pretty nice to go and grab when people undoubtedly remove a few figures from the game.
Quick thought here: Anyone test Mirror Entity in this deck?
I saw a page or so back someone comment about his friend's build being better in the mirror because he runs Glorious Anthems and was just thinking of other ways to drive more advantage from my deck. Obviously it would be a mid/late game card and could be devastating with all the token generators in the deck. It's even solid defensively as it plays well against cards like Infest and Pyroclasm. I'll try it out, but wanted to know if anyone else already had and had some experience to share.
/M
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I am not sold on amphitheater, but I can see it being decent. I already main deck 2 ghitu encampments, so I don't like having more than 6 come into play tapped lands in the deck. The windbrisks being the other 4 obviously. You could probably save yourself some money and just use a vivid meadow/crag, or Savage lands instead and get the same effect, since the amphitheater is never coming into play untapped.
Also, when Path to exile comes out, having the basic land will be pretty nice to go and grab when people undoubtedly remove a few figures from the game.
Well, it wouldn't save me any money, I think I have two unused playsets, and I don't run Ghitu, so I would only have 6-7 CiPT. But, I understand your point. With PtE & KotWO, I'll probably need more basic lands than just that 5.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Ancient Amphitheater is not really needed at all. I mean, is your mana base that shaky? I think basics are fine/
I've seen some people play mirror entity, but only as a one-of in lists that had flamekin harbinger. Seems like an okay idea, but I don't think its needed at all.
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I use MWS, pm me if you're interested in testing with me.
Std
RWVengeant Lark
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SB choices were explained in my other post so go back to page 23 or 24 to see why I went with such an SB. This SB did pretty much exactly what I was hoping for except I think I am going to ditch one oblivion ring for one more wispmare next time (too many people play Glorious anthem). I also want to add 1 Loxodon Warhammer to the main deck in place of that singleton oblivion ring. KoM did exactly what I was hoping for that finks and KotWO weren't delivering on. Having just the 2 SGC seemed sufficient but I kind of want to up it back to three. Taking out mana ramping and upping to 24 lands seemed to work exactly as needed as well. I was only Stuck on 3 land for a few turns in one game. I think I also might ditch one reflecting pool for the white man land.
[quote=brainiape1;/comments/2553064]
2 Ghitu Encampment
2 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Rugged Prairie
4 Windbrisk Heights
Creatures
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Ranger of Eos
3 Reveillark
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Spectral Procession
4 Ajani Vengeant
3 Wrath of God
1 Oblivion ring
4 Incinerate
2 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Voice of All
3 Wispmare
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Magma Spray
MU's
2-0 : Against a first time FNM player, so she got crushed pretty hard.
2-0 : Against an experienced Faerie player, First round I got to Armageddon him with Ajani Vengeant which felt pretty gratifying. Honestly I have never had a problem with Fae the entire time I have been playing this deck for the last month and barely even SB anything in against them. Pretty much just wispmare for blossoms in place of KoM.
2-0 : Against White/Blue Reveillark (this player later beat the other vengeant lark player during top 8 and came in 4th) Also got to Armageddon him with Ajani in the first round.
2-1 : Kithkin, against an experienced player that was just getting back into the game recently. He gave me my only game loss in swiss.
Draw : I got matched up with the only other Vengeant Lark player there and since we are friends we just decided to draw out of Vengeant Lark respect. However I find his deck a much better design for the mirror match, since he uses 4 glorious Anthems and becomes extra agressive with Spectral Procession early on. So I probably would have lost to him.
2-0 : Against an experienced player helming an elfball deck. I got stuck on three lands in the first round and was taken down to 4, but I topdecked a plains the next turn for a wrath and he never regained board control after that. The second round I always had enough fanatics and incinerates to prevent him from getting rolling, and didnt need to wrath.
in top 8
2-0 : against the same Elfball deck, He didn't manage board control in either game this time.
2-1 : Against a guy's awesome Sarkin Vol heavy RGB token/aggro deck. Not really a Jund deck despite the colors. Was like Sarkin/Garruk/Blossoms/finks/collossus/Torrent. Which normally that deck can go toe to toe with Vengeant lark easily as long as he hits his 4 mana in time. But I manages to kill his birds of paradise in the beginning of the first round to make him lose tempo. He swarmed me in the second round, and I offed his birds again early in the third round and plowed in with figures.
I just did a high roll for who got to claim first, so I can't say that I actually won the last round. It was 3 am and we just wanted to leave. So we rolled for it and split the packs even. He was playing a somewhat dated Merfolk deck so I don't know how I would do against it, since I haven't tested against merfolk ever with this deck. It has been pretty dead in my meta.
The card that I just don't want to include out of wanting to try something different from my meta is Glorious Anthem. However, I honestly think it becomes a huge bomb for this deck, when you drop a spectral, then the next turn drop anthem and swing for 6 flying. All in all, a really fun night and it was my first time getting past semi finals in the 7 months I have been playing at that local FNM.
I have o rings in my SB and Wispmares against BW tokens. It is a pretty frequently played deck in my meta, so having AJani to time paradox kill their goldmanes, plus larkable enchant killers for blossoms, and the O rings for either Ajani or Blossoms. Otherwise the rest of the deck goes pretty toe to toe.
I disagree. With a response in hand (and its always handy to draw one), you really can change the game. They may do something knowing that they have a cryptic to tap down your creatures on your turn, but with the response you can avoid that and, in my case last night, swing in for lethal damage.
Spellstutter is enough to make guttural not worth playing against faeries to me. If the Fae player is smart and knows you sb them, they will just try to use spell stutter when convenient to ignore the usefulness of Gutteral and cryptic when you tap out. Also, I think this deck pre-boarded stands toe to toe with Fae easily. I'd rather have a wispmare on turn three (after SB) to kill a blossom than a gutteral at any other point in the game to stop a cryptic.
Unfortunately I haven't played against any 5cc at my FNM, but I'd probably want a full set of gutturals if I knew a lot of people were using that deck. Since it can stop a negate/remove soul/whatever, or just force them to use another counter on the gutteral to make their cryptic go through.
Personally I don't like having both KoM and KotWO in the deck at the same time. I also think that if you don't use Orchid, up it to 24-25 lands. I also much prefer Meadograin over Orchid but this is a choice that has been discussed at length through this thread and is just a matter of personal taste.
4 tenders seems a bit much. So far I also don't think Ranger of Eos needs to be a 4 of. I always seem to draw at least one, if not two in most games. If I get 2 into play I have already drawn most likely drawn at least two other one drops, so I feel like you can skimp on one.
I also endorse ghitu encampments for this deck. Having them block with a knight for first strike damage on a larger creature has been used to great effect for me.
As for SB tips, check the decklists that have been posted and see who had success with what and in what meta games and go from there. You will pretty much find Gutturals, stillmoons, voice of all, wraths, and some enchant hate of some variety in most of them.
Spellstutter Sprite can be annoying, but that's why you pair Gutterals with Vexing Shusher. Yes, Vendilion can still be a problem, but it is a legend, so only so many can be played. I say 3 & 3 of Vexing/Gutterals is perfect for this deck against Fae or 5cc (depending a bit on their list).
Vexing shusher is also a card that I wouldn't use against fae at all. Against 5 color control, yeah I can definitely see its merits. But against fae they have at least 4 outs against it depending on the build (and more for more creative players). they can sower it (being the least worrysome) they can cryptic bounce it, or they can just agony warp it (which would be the most likely. After SB a lot of Fae use infest, so that handles the shusher as well.
The fact that shusher is larkable makes it definitely useful for the match up I would guess, but so far my record against fae feels like their counters just arent a big deal if you maindeck incinerate and mogg fanatic. Escpecially if you sb some enchant hate for bitter blossom. If you neuter the blossoms, their counters dont even feel remotely as threatening, since nothing is counting down to your demise.
People seem to think that incinerate isn't that great for fae since it can't kill a mist bind. but we have other outs like hard casting a lark to block, or combining smart blocks with incinerate. Also just letting them attack with it and dropping an Ajani vengeant to keep it tapped down while you buy some time to get what you need. So far my strategy has been more about having an instant response removal to their instant plays and to not worry about their counters. since Rune snag and Ancestral vision went out, they just don't normally have as much counter gas as they used to.
But I mean, if it has been netting you victories agaisnt fae I say keep rolling with it. The thing that rules so much about this deck is how vastly it can vary and remain effective. Even the older builds with redcaps/mindstones is still a strong match up for fae.
I agree with the first part entirely. I also go 25 lands, and Meadowgrain > Orchard. Having both is a little redundant.
On to Ranger of Eos- he is definitely a 4 of. He's like our mulldrifter. You have 9 one drops and you'd never be upset to get even 3 Rangers in a game, as you'll still have plenty of good targets and it'll keep you loaded with gas. Encampments look interesting also. I'll try them out.
Yeah, good points all. Incinerate, or any burn is really good vs fae, as you are the aggro in that match, and you can get them low on life real quick. Then incinerate to the dome works just fine. Fae is not that hard a match that you need to devote 6x slots to it, especially just anti-counter stuff. Wispmare is usually just more useful for me.
Std
RWVengeant Lark
Ext
GB Loam Rock
So, you are saying I've played SGC, it was countered, resolved Ranger, and they dealt with it + Figure, and then I'm resolving Lark?
How common is that?
Note how I'm discounting SGC resolving the first time, as that should kill them.
And TwOn Eight, I'm done arguing this with you. I've shown how adding lands mathematically adds value up to 25. The only reason to cut lands is, as gerryT discussed in an article, if you feel your only out is to mise people by drawing more gas to win close games, rather then out play them.
Oh, and Shusher is crap. If they have pressure + Cryptic needing to get Gutteraled + a backup Stutter, pretty sure its over anyways. Answers to their answers to our answers just seems so narrow.... plus making RR on 2 is awk without Prairie, especially without the extra red source from 25 lands....
I haven't tested it, but my reason for thinking it is bad has nothing to do with our previous disagreement, and the fact you are using that to try to discredit me is amusing.
Post board, the reasons you lose to Fae are not usually counterspells. The reasons you lose are 1) getting relevantly Time Walked by Clique/Cryptic, 2) getting into Infest or Sower blow outs and 3) Random cards you can't really remove like Warhammer or Razormane Masticore. Shusher not only is easily dealt with, especially by Infest, but only applies in scenario as an answer to their answer to your answer for their answer to your threats, or in the rare case you are at 6 mana and dependent upon resolving SGC, which usually only happens when they do something like Infest on 4 on the play (earlier means you have time to run stuff/threats into their counters anyways) with Blossom without a Clique when you don't have Figure before then or something relevant the turn after Infest.
Vs Fae, I want all threats and primary answers to their main problem cards, not answers to back up my first answers that don't even serve their secondary purpose of being a thread well due to being a x/2 without First Strike or Pro-Black. Shusher is good in strategies where you are the control vs. Fae where you are trying to resolve answers to their threats as your direct way to win, but this deck is definitely not one of those decks. Fae is definitely the control here, and Shusher is not a tempo card like you want.
The fact is, when it hits the board, and it will, it forces them to work around it. May they have answers? Of course... but every card has answers to it. That doesn't mean you don't play it.
I would however agree that it can screw up the Figure mana, which is why it's usually played at a later time, or after a Figure has already been bounced.
On that subject, what do you all think of the FoD vs Fae or 5cc? It seems to require so much mana dedication to just get bounced to hand, especially if you're not playing Gutterals. Thoughts?
The last part is the key part. Shusher doesn't answer any of their real threats, just their lesser answers.
Oh, and if you think FoD is bad in a matchup EVER, you are doing it wrong. Maybe consider other plans of action if you have the option between being blown out after pumping it by bounce or something else. The only time I've ever considered it anything but perfect is vs. BW Tokens, where its less then optimal to Ranger for over Fanatic as your goal by that point is usually A) keeping them off Heights or B) nugging them. And even then, there's nothing I would rather play on T1 or T2 and on the play I would almost always rather just activate it on 2 and 3 then do anything else.
On the Shusher, I see your point. I guess my only issue with dropping it, is that it's made such a difference in my 5CC match ups, that I wouldn't want to eliminate it.
If it has done well for your 5 color control match ups then keep it in the SB. I just don't think it is particularly helpful against fae. So far there have been multiple times where with fanatics and incinerates, I have been able to eliminate all of their champion options when they try to drop a clique, thus forcing them to sac it. Playing to control the counters against fae is definitely a clunky method compared to just having instant response to their weak little critters.
Yeah, I suppose I should have prefaced it by saying there are currently no Fae players in my meta. There are 3-4 (depending on the night) 5CC players, however, so that match-up is obviously much more important to me. Our last Fae player converted to Kithkin because he couldn't afford to use the cards needed for Fae to be competitive.
EDIT: checking out Deckcheck.net saw some interesting choices. What do you all think of Ancient Amphitheater here? Also, is anyone currently running 4x Siege-Gang? If so, how has it effected your mana curve, have you had to make any other changes?
as common as your opponent being able to answer all that.
Yeah.. it's most likely not going to happen.
Though, I did have a game against 5cc last week, where I played 2 SGCs in one turn, both of which were countered, then evoked 'Lark the next turn to return both of them to the field, and then sac'd half of them to win the game.
So, any thoughts on the Ancient Amphitheater? I've been testing it out replacing my 5 Plains/3 Mountain split as 5 Plains/3 AA, and so far it's not been too bad. There has been an issue or two with the opening hand being a Windbrisk & an Amphitheater, but it usually works out just fine. I drop the Amphitheater first, as both the FoD & Fanatic can be played off of it.
Thoughts?
Also, when Path to exile comes out, having the basic land will be pretty nice to go and grab when people undoubtedly remove a few figures from the game.
I saw a page or so back someone comment about his friend's build being better in the mirror because he runs Glorious Anthems and was just thinking of other ways to drive more advantage from my deck. Obviously it would be a mid/late game card and could be devastating with all the token generators in the deck. It's even solid defensively as it plays well against cards like Infest and Pyroclasm. I'll try it out, but wanted to know if anyone else already had and had some experience to share.
/M
Well, it wouldn't save me any money, I think I have two unused playsets, and I don't run Ghitu, so I would only have 6-7 CiPT. But, I understand your point. With PtE & KotWO, I'll probably need more basic lands than just that 5.
I've seen some people play mirror entity, but only as a one-of in lists that had flamekin harbinger. Seems like an okay idea, but I don't think its needed at all.
Std
RWVengeant Lark
Ext
GB Loam Rock