Grabbing the Wrath while playing an aggro/midrange deck is essential, I think, making Thoughtsieze so good. Pulse takes care of something they invested time and mana into, and sometimes even more than that, resulting in card advantage. There's also a fair amount of tokens in the format. I'm probably (though running a different deck) looking at running 3 of each, Pulse and TS.
RUN 4 PULSE!!!
It's too good not to. It is by far the best removal we have on offer.
And I have found seize essential to not seeing a recurred sower+muldrifter off a lark, etc.
BW Tokens? Maybe. Stillmoon? It's unplayable in this format. It either dies to Fallout, or it dies to Zealous Persecution/Wrath of God. It a 2/1 for 3. It's awful.
...And yet they are still running it.
I believe the argument is that it dodges most of the remocal in the format and heps in the mirror. Not sure if that applies any longer, but Persecution cuts both ways and is only effective if they don't already have Adjani or Anthem out.
I would like it if they didn't run it, but I know a handful going to regionals who are. I'm just hoping that I don't randomly meet them climing through the ranks at Regionals.
Thanks for the list. Curious as to why Maelstrom Pulse in the side and I had to double count on the 22 land + 4 Mana elves. Do you find a significant difference between 22 and 23 land? Also what is your meta like?
Sorry about that, all fixed, I run 4 Forest instead of 3... My meta consist heavily on 5CC, Boat Brew and BW Tokens at the moment.
I'm not trying to debate whether this deck should be aggro or mid-range and I'm not trying to convince anyone to include it either way. I understand that this deck is mid-range. I just think that with the printing of Maelstrom Pulse, G/B just got exactly what it was looking for, a utility card that can destroy virtually any threat that you would normally want to take with Thoughtseize. While Thoughtseize is looking to proactively deal with a problem, Maelstrom Pulse has the advantage of being able to deal with it after any kind of top deck puts G/B into a precarious situation.
The thing is that you should not be comparing this cards, both are great, and each in their situation. Thoughtseize is amazing for getting rid of threats early and Maelstrom is great to get rids of things that already hit the table...
Sometimes you need to get rid of things before they are played and sometimes it's not neccesary...
My current opinion about Malestrom is that being a Sorcery hurts this deck. You need that instant speed that Eyeblight's gives you a lot of times. Maelstroms come into play when you know you'll be getting a 2x1 or more out of it, like in the BW Tokens match...
Taking into consideration that each card has it pros and cons I find that Maelstrom Pulse adjusts the curve a bit but has a more versitile function in the mid and late game then Thoughtseize. Is it worth to trade the early game to have a better mid-game? Testing so far has told me that Maelstrom Pulse, while purely reactive, is main deck material. There are 2 G/B decks in the top 8 of the most recent tournaments. Neither of them have Thoughtseize in them, but the non-MTGO list has Maelstrom Pulse. I guess testing will tell.
I'm working on a Jund elves deck, been playing around with it. Bloodbraid Elf is prettyhax, especially if she turns over an Perfect. I run 4 Bit blasts because they hit 99% of the deck which is hot as well. Mana fixing is kind of an issue, I need more painlands to run smoothly. Also, Madrush Cyclops as a 2 of, he is really synergetic with Paragon, and throwing a colossus down turn 5 and being able to swing is also very naughty :D. Still making tweaks though.
I actually took Llonawars out of the jundelves I am playing. Simply because cascading into them just really sucks. They are really only good for turn1 or turn2 drops, but I'd rather drop a wren's run turn 2 anyways. I also run a few CITP lands, so having a llonwar and a savage lands/treetop in hand is kinda like, womp womp womp... I've only played it in 1 tourny so I guess I'll see how things go in the next few.
Tried it when I cut Wayfinder. Put them back when I put back in Wayfinder. Cut them to 3, and now they are back to 4. I also increased the number of 3-drops, so that had something to do with it.
Really no compelling reason not to run it at the moment.
I actually took Llonawars out of the jundelves I am playing. Simply because cascading into them just really sucks. They are really only good for turn1 or turn2 drops, but I'd rather drop a wren's run turn 2 anyways. I also run a few CITP lands, so having a llonwar and a savage lands/treetop in hand is kinda like, womp womp womp... I've only played it in 1 tourny so I guess I'll see how things go in the next few.
Oh, you've got quite a good point about Cascading into something small. There are no cards with Cascade in this deck. It's not a problem. Don't try to apply another deck's problems to this one and cut a card in this deck. "Llonawar" elves are in because they accel into 4 converted cost fatties and the added speed helps you cast them before your opponent can playcast Cryptic Command.
GB Elves <-man I hate this deck, it has a 50/50 matchup against Tier 1/2 but loses to jank aggro most of the time. UB Faeries <-only reason it's good is because of all those people that's still playing 5CC. WB Tokens <-so boring, there's only 2 ways to play this deck. RB Blightning <-Autopilotting you to victory 0-2 drop.
???B Super Secret Tech <-dude, this thing is nuts! 90/10 against all matchups.
This thread has a lot of variations of types of elf decks, I wasn't saying to cut llanowars in general, just if you are trying to build a cascading deck, they kind of hurt you sometimes. So do wren's runs sometimes... Cascading into them without an elf in your hand or 3 available mana is like, wooo wasted cascade.
Some of the card choices were made with the thought being that Regionals would be a wide-open field, whereas a PTQ will be more focused on the specific decks in the metagame. I think this deck archetype is a good choice right now because it beats up on all the decks gunning for the token decks while still having good tools to put up a good fight against Token decks as well. BW Tokens is definitely the deck's worst matchup but it is very winnable if you get them back on their heels and make them play defensively. If I was going to take this deck to a PTQ I would make the following MD changes:
R1: W 2-0 vs RB w/Blightning
R2: W 2-1 vs Mono-Green Aggro
R3: W 2-0 vs Cascade Control
R4: L 2-0 vs B/W Persist Tokens
R5: W 2-0 vs Esper Beats
R6: W 2-0 vs Jund Ramp
R7: W 2-0 vs GW Tokens
R8: ID with BW Tokens
T8: W 2-1 vs Seismic Swans
I'm sorry for not posting more detailed results as I'm pretty beat. If anyone has any questions I'll do my best to chime in with my thoughts!
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elves were dominant in dallas. We had 3 in top 8, including yours truly and the guy who went 9-0-0. I played the exact same list except -2 garruk, +2 colossus
edit: If anyone wants me to do a blow by blow of that tournament let me know.
R1: W 2-0 vs RB w/Blightning
R2: W 2-1 vs Mono-Green Aggro
R3: W 2-0 vs Cascade Control
R4: L 2-0 vs B/W Persist Tokens
R5: W 2-0 vs Esper Beats
R6: W 2-0 vs Jund Ramp
R7: W 2-0 vs GW Tokens
R8: ID with BW Tokens
T8: W 2-1 vs Seismic Swans
GB Elves <-man I hate this deck, it has a 50/50 matchup against Tier 1/2 but loses to jank aggro most of the time. UB Faeries <-only reason it's good is because of all those people that's still playing 5CC. WB Tokens <-so boring, there's only 2 ways to play this deck. RB Blightning <-Autopilotting you to victory 0-2 drop.
???B Super Secret Tech <-dude, this thing is nuts! 90/10 against all matchups.
elves were dominant in dallas. We had 3 in top 8, including yours truly and the guy who went 9-0-0. I played the exact same list except -2 garruk, +2 colossus
edit: If anyone wants me to do a blow by blow of that tournament let me know.
How did you feel about the change? Garruk is such a beating against all other midrange decks.
the only time I wanted Garruk was in the mirror match, because he is obviously very good there. In the mirror is also a spot where colossus really shines as he is nearly untouchable. I was very satisfied with the change but it made boarding even tougher as there just are no bad cards in the deck. The way I look at it I prefer Garruk vs RW, elves(with no leech), ramp, and the 5C decks and prefer colossus vs BW, Elves(if they have leech), Doran, RG, RB, Sanity Grinding, faeries and Fog then they are pretty much a wash in the others (kithken, bant,...).
I feel like there are still too many ways to mess with the overrun and fly over the beasts for garruk to really assert himself in standard at present. I think the next card in would be the 4th profane, like I said before :), but when testing with 4 it seemed that it was just a bit much from time to time.
Also really note that with the leech it is a much faster deck than without. I play more of an aggro plan than a midrange plan.
the only time I wanted Garruk was in the mirror match, because he is obviously very good there. In the mirror is also a spot where colossus really shines as he is nearly untouchable. I was very satisfied with the change but it made boarding even tougher as there just are no bad cards in the deck. The way I look at it I prefer Garruk vs RW, elves(with no leech), ramp, and the 5C decks and prefer colossus vs BW, Elves(if they have leech), Doran, RG, RB, Sanity Grinding, faeries and Fog then they are pretty much a wash in the others (kithken, bant,...).
I feel like there are still too many ways to mess with the overrun and fly over the beasts for garruk to really assert himself in standard at present. I think the next card in would be the 4th profane, like I said before :), but when testing with 4 it seemed that it was just a bit much from time to time.
Also really note that with the leech it is a much faster deck than without. I play more of an aggro plan than a midrange plan.
That's really helpful. Thanks! Did you change your sideboard at all? What matches do you sideboard out the leeches. I assume they are good vs. R/B, Faeries and 5cc but don't know much else.
I changed the board quite a bit. You can see my deck (in 6th in case my name is too cryptic) along with the other two elf finishers. I never boarded out the leeches they are great in any matchup that you want to deal damage in. There was only one game that I played a leech and didn't win and that was in the mirror where I had no black sources until turn 7-8.
Honestly I'm really not sure my sideboard is all that it could be as I had difficulty with what to cut and what to put in all day. I definitely like the Mind Shatters, Profane Command, and Inversions.
Snakeform is obviously super important against Reviellark but also comes in vs Stillmoons and opposing colossi. Cloudthresher was for tokens but I'm beginning to prefer infest, particularly after facing elf-ball. Hurricane serves double duty as killing tokens and putting the finishing touch on the decks that are hard to kill via damage (sanity grinding/fog and even tokens sometimes). Wheel of Sun and Moon is for the mill decks and can be really good against lark but is very situational. Colossus was mostly in the board to sub in for lieges in the matches where he is subpar (tokens) or to give me a way to be more aggro if necessary.
Have to ask, doesn't Putrid Leech and Thoughtseize in the same deck self-inflict too much damage, even with Kitchen Finks? Seems like it is a one or the other?
I cant help but notice that none of these top decks are running lox warhammer. In my testing it has been such a beating, i havent been unhappy seeing it yet. Also I cant imagine not running garruk he is the 2nd best finisher behind profane and profane is useless a lot of time against bw toks and fae as they have a ton of chumpers..
Looking at the results from regionals this deck seems to almost always share most of the same MD cards with the exception of just a few. If someone who made t8 preferablly could explain their choices for these few slots that I keep seeing differ between the different versions that would be great.
Have to ask, doesn't Putrid Leech and Thoughtseize in the same deck self-inflict too much damage, even with Kitchen Finks? Seems like it is a one or the other?
No.
I suppose you probably want more so, as you are no doubt aware the only life point that matters is the last one. Putrid Leech doesn't force you to pump it, it simply gives you a way to save it, trade profitably, or apply crazy pressure.
Compare the leech to Snuff Out (they block and you pay two life to kill their creature without losses), Rainbow Efreet (because you can make it difficult to remove), and then consider that Wren's Run Vanquisher(my 2nd favorite 2 drop) takes 7 shots to kill and leech takes just 5, while both trade or better with most everything in standard. That is a pretty huge difference.
I don't think warhammer is a bad idea but I don't think it is essential either because you do have 8 manlands to beat face with and pump mana into.
If anyone has questions, not about my torrid love affair with leech, I'd be glad to try and answer.
hi i have all the key componets for elves and was thinking of building it. I have no budget so getting things wont be a problem and i alrdy have most of the standard staples so that helps.
What is the best splash? White, black, red, and blue all seem good. I am a little biast toard black because i had the deck(and fae of course=) during the timespiral-lorwyn era.
I changed the board quite a bit. You can see my deck (in 6th in case my name is too cryptic) along with the other two elf finishers. I never boarded out the leeches they are great in any matchup that you want to deal damage in. There was only one game that I played a leech and didn't win and that was in the mirror where I had no black sources until turn 7-8.
Honestly I'm really not sure my sideboard is all that it could be as I had difficulty with what to cut and what to put in all day. I definitely like the Mind Shatters, Profane Command, and Inversions.
Snakeform is obviously super important against Reviellark but also comes in vs Stillmoons and opposing colossi. Cloudthresher was for tokens but I'm beginning to prefer infest, particularly after facing elf-ball. Hurricane serves double duty as killing tokens and putting the finishing touch on the decks that are hard to kill via damage (sanity grinding/fog and even tokens sometimes). Wheel of Sun and Moon is for the mill decks and can be really good against lark but is very situational. Colossus was mostly in the board to sub in for lieges in the matches where he is subpar (tokens) or to give me a way to be more aggro if necessary.
Thanks again. I'm going to run a build similar to yours with two changes (-1 finks +1 wayfinder and -1 Mutavault, +1 Forest). I've proposed a sideboard + sideboard plans. Would appreciate thoughts.
RUN 4 PULSE!!!
It's too good not to. It is by far the best removal we have on offer.
And I have found seize essential to not seeing a recurred sower+muldrifter off a lark, etc.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
...And yet they are still running it.
I believe the argument is that it dodges most of the remocal in the format and heps in the mirror. Not sure if that applies any longer, but Persecution cuts both ways and is only effective if they don't already have Adjani or Anthem out.
I would like it if they didn't run it, but I know a handful going to regionals who are. I'm just hoping that I don't randomly meet them climing through the ranks at Regionals.
Sorry about that, all fixed, I run 4 Forest instead of 3... My meta consist heavily on 5CC, Boat Brew and BW Tokens at the moment.
The thing is that you should not be comparing this cards, both are great, and each in their situation. Thoughtseize is amazing for getting rid of threats early and Maelstrom is great to get rids of things that already hit the table...
Sometimes you need to get rid of things before they are played and sometimes it's not neccesary...
My current opinion about Malestrom is that being a Sorcery hurts this deck. You need that instant speed that Eyeblight's gives you a lot of times. Maelstroms come into play when you know you'll be getting a 2x1 or more out of it, like in the BW Tokens match...
We'll have to keep testing, that's for sure...
Maggical
Eeerrrrr... So everydeck? Jajajaja...
I would recommend my build without changes...
Maggical
I assemble one of these decks and was impressed how the deck works. I simply overrun Faeries, Kithkin, 5-colors control, and some other minor stuff...
Maybe I play the regionals here with this!!! If anyone interested, i put a sample decklist later.
But i still think Monogreen is a competitive deck.
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AND A LOT OF PAUPER..
Black Magic, beating ya face since ´95, man!!! - Take it Legacy!!!
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:):jug::lock::chillpill::weird::rofl::no::hifive::jam::crazy::banana::dance::bunny::spamlock::cheers::nike:
it's been suggested before, but there really isn't a particularly good reason to do so.
My Type 4 stack (Cube Tutor link)
Tried it when I cut Wayfinder. Put them back when I put back in Wayfinder. Cut them to 3, and now they are back to 4. I also increased the number of 3-drops, so that had something to do with it.
Really no compelling reason not to run it at the moment.
Best of luck to everyone at Provincials / States.
ELVISH LIVES!
....Thank you. Thank you very much.....
Oh, you've got quite a good point about Cascading into something small.There are no cards with Cascade in this deck. It's not a problem. Don't try to apply another deck's problems to this one and cut a card in this deck. "Llonawar" elves are in because they accel into 4 converted cost fatties and the added speed helps you cast them before your opponent canplaycast Cryptic Command.GB Elves <-man I hate this deck, it has a 50/50 matchup against Tier 1/2 but loses to jank aggro most of the time.
UB Faeries <-only reason it's good is because of all those people that's still playing 5CC.
WB Tokens <-so boring, there's only 2 ways to play this deck.
RB Blightning <-Autopilotting you to
victory0-2 drop.???B Super Secret Tech <-dude, this thing is nuts! 90/10 against all matchups.
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
3 Putrid Leech
4 Civic Wayfinder
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Chameleon Colossus
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Cloudthresher
3 Profane Command
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Nameless Inversion
4 Treetop Village
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Twilight Mire
2 Mutavault
4 Forest
2 Swamp
SB:
Some of the card choices were made with the thought being that Regionals would be a wide-open field, whereas a PTQ will be more focused on the specific decks in the metagame. I think this deck archetype is a good choice right now because it beats up on all the decks gunning for the token decks while still having good tools to put up a good fight against Token decks as well. BW Tokens is definitely the deck's worst matchup but it is very winnable if you get them back on their heels and make them play defensively. If I was going to take this deck to a PTQ I would make the following MD changes:
-2 Garruk
-1 Finks
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Profane Command
+1 Chameleon Colossus
My results from Regionals were:
R1: W 2-0 vs RB w/Blightning
R2: W 2-1 vs Mono-Green Aggro
R3: W 2-0 vs Cascade Control
R4: L 2-0 vs B/W Persist Tokens
R5: W 2-0 vs Esper Beats
R6: W 2-0 vs Jund Ramp
R7: W 2-0 vs GW Tokens
R8: ID with BW Tokens
T8: W 2-1 vs Seismic Swans
I'm sorry for not posting more detailed results as I'm pretty beat. If anyone has any questions I'll do my best to chime in with my thoughts!
edit: If anyone wants me to do a blow by blow of that tournament let me know.
Did Top 4 just all ID or something?
GB Elves <-man I hate this deck, it has a 50/50 matchup against Tier 1/2 but loses to jank aggro most of the time.
UB Faeries <-only reason it's good is because of all those people that's still playing 5CC.
WB Tokens <-so boring, there's only 2 ways to play this deck.
RB Blightning <-Autopilotting you to
victory0-2 drop.???B Super Secret Tech <-dude, this thing is nuts! 90/10 against all matchups.
Top 4 all get invites.
I took 9th in Philly with a 6-1-1 record. Only lost to UWLark because games 2 and 3 I saw not a single anti-Lark card.
How did you feel about the change? Garruk is such a beating against all other midrange decks.
I feel like there are still too many ways to mess with the overrun and fly over the beasts for garruk to really assert himself in standard at present. I think the next card in would be the 4th profane, like I said before :), but when testing with 4 it seemed that it was just a bit much from time to time.
Also really note that with the leech it is a much faster deck than without. I play more of an aggro plan than a midrange plan.
That's really helpful. Thanks! Did you change your sideboard at all? What matches do you sideboard out the leeches. I assume they are good vs. R/B, Faeries and 5cc but don't know much else.
Here is the board:
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Cloudthresher
2 Hurricane
2 Mind Shatter
3 Nameless Inversion
1 Profane Command
3 Snakeform
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
Honestly I'm really not sure my sideboard is all that it could be as I had difficulty with what to cut and what to put in all day. I definitely like the Mind Shatters, Profane Command, and Inversions.
Snakeform is obviously super important against Reviellark but also comes in vs Stillmoons and opposing colossi. Cloudthresher was for tokens but I'm beginning to prefer infest, particularly after facing elf-ball. Hurricane serves double duty as killing tokens and putting the finishing touch on the decks that are hard to kill via damage (sanity grinding/fog and even tokens sometimes). Wheel of Sun and Moon is for the mill decks and can be really good against lark but is very situational. Colossus was mostly in the board to sub in for lieges in the matches where he is subpar (tokens) or to give me a way to be more aggro if necessary.
Looking at the results from regionals this deck seems to almost always share most of the same MD cards with the exception of just a few. If someone who made t8 preferablly could explain their choices for these few slots that I keep seeing differ between the different versions that would be great.
ex. wilt-leaf leige, garruk, lox warhammer, nameless vs eyesblight, recap, thoughtseize.....etc.
Again Thanks!
No.
I suppose you probably want more so, as you are no doubt aware the only life point that matters is the last one. Putrid Leech doesn't force you to pump it, it simply gives you a way to save it, trade profitably, or apply crazy pressure.
Compare the leech to Snuff Out (they block and you pay two life to kill their creature without losses), Rainbow Efreet (because you can make it difficult to remove), and then consider that Wren's Run Vanquisher(my 2nd favorite 2 drop) takes 7 shots to kill and leech takes just 5, while both trade or better with most everything in standard. That is a pretty huge difference.
I don't think warhammer is a bad idea but I don't think it is essential either because you do have 8 manlands to beat face with and pump mana into.
If anyone has questions, not about my torrid love affair with leech, I'd be glad to try and answer.
Corrected.
What is the best splash? White, black, red, and blue all seem good. I am a little biast toard black because i had the deck(and fae of course=) during the timespiral-lorwyn era.
Thanks again. I'm going to run a build similar to yours with two changes (-1 finks +1 wayfinder and -1 Mutavault, +1 Forest). I've proposed a sideboard + sideboard plans. Would appreciate thoughts.
Creatures
2 Chameleon Colossus
2 Cloudthresher
3 Civic Wayfinder
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Putrid Leech
4 Wilt-leaf Liege
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
Sorceries
4 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Profane Command
4 Thoughtseize
Basic Lands
4 Forest
2 Swamp
Lands
4 Gilt-leaf Palace
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Mutavault
4 Treetop Village
2 Twilight Mire
Sideboard:
3 Guttural Response
2 Mind Shatter
2 Primal Command
3 Infest
2 Cloudthesher
2 Terror
1 Shriekmaw
Faeries 17 elves
-3 Profane Command
-4 Maelstrom Pulse
+3 Guttural Response
+2 Cloudthresher
+2 Terror
5cc 15 elves
-3 Kitchen Finks
-2 Chameleon Colossus
+2 Mind Shatter
+3 Guttural Response
B/W Tokens 17 elves
-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Putrid Leech
+3 Infest
+2 Cloudthresher
Kithkin 14 elves
-1 Cloudthresher
-2 Chameleon Colossus
-1 Wilt-leaf Liege
-4 Thoughtseize
+2 Primal Command
+1 Shriekmaw
+2 Terror
+3 Infest
R/B 17 elves
-4 Thoughtseize
-2 Cloudthresher
+2 Primal Command
+2 Terror
+1 Shriekmaw
+1 Mind Shatter
Lark 17 elves
+2 Primal Command
+1 Shriekmaw
+2 Mindshatter
-3 Kitchen Finks
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
Fog 13 elves
+2 Primal Command
+2 Cloudthresher
+3 Guttural Response
-3 Kitchen Finks
-3 Civic Wayfinder
-1 Chameleon Colossus
Mill 17 elves
+2 Primal Command
+3 Guttural Response
+2 Cloudthresher
-3 Kitchen Finks
-3 Civic Wayfinder
-1 Chameleon Colossus
R/W Lark
-4 Thoughtseize
-2 Chameleon Colossus
-2 Putrid Leech
+2 Primal Command
+3 Infest
+2 Terror
+1 Shriekmaw