Canman87, its an interesting idea. Although I think that the relic is still better at graveyard disruption. The faerie macabre would be situationally better than the relic if we can hardcast it but we can't. The relic is still strictly better throughout the course of the game because it is cheap and it can keep a boat brew deck from gaining a lot of CA throughout the entire game. It also doubles as a cantrip so its pretty good for its cost. The faerie macabre is comparable to the relic in the early game but that's about it. Boat brew is all about CA so two cards is probably not enough to keep them down in the mid to late game.
Yeah, I agree with that. I guess the faerie would be better if we have the nuts draw of turn three 14 damage, that way we can focus on that and still disrupt the opponent if need be.
But yeah, Relic is better for the long haul. Definitely.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
I still think trying to beat R/W 'lark with graveyard hate is a waste of sideboard slots. The deck does not rely on Reveillark's ability in order to win and even if you get your hate out it barely slows them down. I would instead look at attacking the deck with some combination of Remove Soul (counter 'Lark, Ranger) and Gaddock Teeg (No Spectral, Ajani, or Wrath).
A lot of decks have ways to stop our brutal 3 turn setup. In an environment with mogg fanatics, paths to exile, condemns, and a host of other cheap removal spells it is really difficult to connect with 14 damage on turn 3.
Brasswire, full set of gaddock teeg in the board and a couple of remove souls could work but that would mean that we have to side out the cryptics. If your metagame is full of boat brew decks then that is a reasonable sideboard package. Gaddock has to be protected though. Boat brew has path to exile, scms, and fanatics that can be used to take him out.
I'd have to disagree with you on the graveyard aspect though. The graveyard is a crucial aspect of the boat brew gameplan. Mogg fanatics, flamekin harbingers, white orchids, siege gang commanders, and figures of destiny are already efficient and powerful creatures. What more if they have the ability to come back again and again? Sure we have path to exiles and to a lesser extent bant charms but will you be willing to path a fanatic early on? Boat brew is about direct (tutoring, CITP effects) and indirect (recursion) card advantage. If we take out one of those aspects we take out a part of their gameplan.
That reminds me, I have to put in those relics in my sideboard. That one hour duel with my boat brew toting friend taught me how important they are against lark decks.
Brasswire, full set of gaddock teeg in the board and a couple of remove souls could work but that would mean that we have to side out the cryptics. If your metagame is full of boat brew decks then that is a reasonable sideboard package. Gaddock has to be protected though. Boat brew has path to exile, scms, and fanatics that can be used to take him out.
I disagree that he has to be protected. He's a speedbump. A good one, but he's not crucial to the deck. But you force them to use resources dealing with him and screw up their curve leaving them with dead cards in hand in the meantime. It's not like they can Fanatic your Hierarch and then double Fanatic Teeg, and if they're wasting their limited removal on Teeg then good for us. Not to mention that he serves a double function for us as a nice two-drop that can put on pressure in the early game. I'm not saying that he's the only answer or even the best answer, but he is easily superior to something like Relic IMHO which is a dead sideboard slot in near every other matchup and has no effect on the game unless/until they get the Reveillark machine going.
I'd have to disagree with you on the graveyard aspect though. The graveyard is a crucial aspect of the boat brew gameplan. Mogg fanatics, flamekin harbingers, white orchids, siege gang commanders, and figures of destiny are already efficient and powerful creatures. What more if they have the ability to come back again and again? Sure we have path to exiles and to a lesser extent bant charms but will you be willing to path a fanatic early on? Boat brew is about direct (tutoring, CITP effects) and indirect (recursion) card advantage. If we take out one of those aspects we take out a part of their gameplan.
I understand what you're saying. My point is that I don't see attacking the recursion aspect as helping very much. Even without that the deck is still powerful enough, with enough card advantage to beat you. They don't even need 'Lark to win. If your sideboard cards aren't going to be that much help then what's the point. You need something that does more than just stop Reveillark's ability. Which is why I advocate Teeg and Remove Soul for this matchup.
With the above list; I'm 10-2-3 so far in matches over the last 3 weeks. I'm still not sold on Jace and will be testing Elspeth again next weekend (I've just been running Jace the last 2 weeks). I've also been changing up the SB each of the last three weeks to test various cards. I might be trying pithing needle next weekend and see how it goes.
Psy
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Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
so, here is my report as I promised.
My list has stayed the same (go here if you wanna check out).
We were 281 players at this NQ, meaning there were 15 places for the Nationals. And to qualify, you had to go for at least 7-2 (9 rounds) with a good % opposing win.
1st Match: G/B Elves
I really get stomped during this match, it was absolutely awful. I won the toss.
Game 1: I kept a slow hand with 4 lands, a Vendilion, a Cryptic and a Negate (probably should have mulliganed, but the 4 lands I had could allow me to cast Cryptic turn 4). And my opponent went: T1 Llanowar, T2 Wolf Skull Shaman T3 Double Vanquisher T4 Liege. My Vendilion Clique took away a Profane Command. I managed to resist a bit with the Cryptic, but I drew only lands and...another Vendilion. I got swarmed and finished me with a Profane he had drawn in replacement from my Vendilion. Just plain bad luck...
Siding: -3 Jace (was afraid of being swarmed) +3 Wrath
Game 2: I decided to go first. Opening hand: 3 lands, Hierarch, Rhox, Rafiq and a Wrath, so I kept. I successively played my hierarch, my monk and Rafiq on my 3 turns. Unfortunately, Rafiq went down with a Eyeblight's Ending. I began to get swarmed again: Wolf Skull Shaman (with kinship almost every turn), Cameleon Colossus and an Imperious Perfect. So I wrathed, my opponent had only 1 card remaining. But the card was another Colossus he played on his turn, and at end of my turn, flashed a Cloudthresher. I couldn't hold it (he had mana to double the Cameleon as well), and quickly died.
Overall, I just couldn't keep up with all his creatures (not to mention the Mutavault and Treetop), and couldn't control him enough...
Result: 0-2 / 0-1 overall
2nd Match: Weird WU Control
A very strange deck, consisting of an incredible load of removal (Remove soul, negate, oblivion ring, path to exile, cryptic command, martial coup), which kills with tokens from spectral procession, rise of the hobgoblins (!!) or from the coup. I won the toss.
Game 1: I went T1 Hierarch, T2 Rhox. And after this, all my spells were countered!!! Yes, all of them. Unfortunately as well, I was stuck at 3 lands for a lot of time, so I never was able to outcounter him. He took a few hits from the Rhox, recovered with a Kiss of the Amesha, and began to cast 2 Spectral Procession and one Rise of the Hobgoblins. So, by giving first strike to his creatures, he was able to kill my Rhox on defend, and slowly killed me with his flying creatures.
Game 2: I went first and began to stomp him with a Mimic connected to an Infiltrator, and then connected to a Rhox. The Rhox get Oblivioned. I countered a Cryptic with a Guttural on the next turn, and things began to look good. He was at 6. And here it goes again: Kiss of the Amesha one time, and then a second time!! I successfuly cast a Rafiq, bringing him again to 6. And a Martial coup well placed ruined my hopes of winning (no counters in my hand at that time...), followed by another Rise of the Hobgoblins. I got swarmed and died.
Result: 0-2 / 0-2 overall
3rd Match: Bant aggro
Not really a mirror match, as he played "controlling" creatures like Gaddock and Stoic Angel. He only had one Rafiq...I won the toss (third time in a row, yeah!)
Game 1: Opening hand: 6 lands and Jace! ouch! Mulliganed to 6. Had a good hand (Mimic, Rafiq, Monk and Cryptic) but the 2 lands were filters!!! But I was so desperate (0-2 so far) that I kept it (poker style!). And it worked, my next draw was a brushland that allowed me to cast everything I wanted. Well, almost, cause he played Gaddock Teeg on turn 2, and the Cryptic stayed in my hand all day long. Rafiq took his Bant charm, unfortunately. And on the next turn, when all my creatures were tapped, he played Stoic Angel. But she took her Bant charm as well, and I attacked for victory.
I decided to side nothing, as I thought my match-up was favorable (more aggressive than him).
Game 2: I stomped him again. Nothing much to say on this one, it was really easy. Oh, a funny thing: I countered his Bant charm with...a Bant charm!
Result: 2-0 / 1-2 overall
4th Match: Mono Black Rogues
Unusual deck for the metagame, but one of my usual sparring partners used to play a deck like this, so I knew what to do and what to remove. I lost the toss.
Game 1: He began to swarm me very fast: a Prickly Boggart T1 allowed him to cast successfully all his prowl costs. So he had an Oona Blackguard, followed by a Marsh Flitter with 3 2/2 tokens. I Bant Charmed the Oona, but he kept attacking me. I was at 1 life, with a Rhox and 2 hierarchs when I drew...Loxodon Warhammer!!! And a Rhox with double lifelink, 2 exalts and trample is nothing to make fun of! So I went back to 17 life (OMG), and he never recovered from this.
Siding: -3 Jaces (too many "fear" creatures) ; +3 Wraths
Game 2: I don't remember too well this game (my notes are not very precise on it), but I recall I won with an Infiltrator with a Warhammer, with a Rafiq for the kill. That was sick.
Result: 2-0 / 2-2 overall, things began to go better
5th Match: Faeries
Finally a "common" deck of the metagame (with the GB Elves, of course). I lost the toss.
Game 1: I stomped him quite fast (he had not a great opening hand). He managed to control me a bit with 3 Broken Ambitions (yes, he was playing them!) and a Cryptic. A well timed Jace allowed me to keep up with the pace. So I put him to 3 with an Infiltrator followed by a Rafiq while he was hitting himself with a Bitterblossom. And he managed to stabilize with a Sower of Temptation stealing my Rafiq. I couldn't cast my Bant Charm on his Sower due to Scion of Oona. I attacked again with my Infiltrator, putting him to 1, and said: End of Turn with a smile. But he championned his bitterblossom that would have killed him with a Mistbind Clique, followed by an agony warp on my Infiltrator....I then went down...I was so close, it was insane.
Game 2: A remake from game 1 unfortunately: I stomped him at first, putting him to 6, and he slowly began to stabilize and killed me. I never hit my side cards that would have allowed me to stand a chance.
Result: 0-2 / 2-3 overall
6th Match: GR Warriors
I won't go into details for that one: I had perfect hands on game 1 and killed him fast when he was stuck at 3 lands (and he blasted the "wrong" creatures, allowing me to keep Rafiq on table). Game 2 was good as well: he played nearly all his hand, beginning to stomp me...until I wrathed. I was then able to kill him with a Treetop equipped by 2 loxodon warhammers.
Result: 2-0 / 3-3 overall
7th Match: BR Blightning
A slightly unusual deck list: he had almost only creatures, with a few spells which were Blightning and Volcanic Fallout (ouch!). I lost the toss.
Game 1: T1 Mogg from him. I kept a "control only" land, consisting of a Negate, a Bant Charm and a Cryptic, with 4 lands allowing me to cast Cryptic turn 4. It was unfortunately a big mistake. His mogg managed to hit me 5 times before I put down a creature (a hierarch he killed me, of course). I countered his turn 3 Blightning with a Negate. I bought some time with my Cryptic, countering an Ashenmoor Gouger and sending him back his Ghitu encampment to his hand. I had to Bant Charm an Ashenmoor Liege unfortunately, loosing 4 life in the process. And he killed me while I was at 2 with a Volcanic Fallout, when I had a Negate in hand...
Siding: +4 Burrenton Forge Tender, +3 Celestial Purge, -3 Jace (I thought he had real blasts...), -3 Mimics (only 1 life) -1 Bant Charm
Game 2: A very weird game. We both were stuck at 2 lands for a long time. But I kept a hand with...3 Forge Tenders! So I was able to hit him for 1 or 2 each turn while keeping one for defense as he had put mogg and 2 figures of destiny. We then began to draw lands and I managed to put down a Rafiq while he put down 2 goblin outlanders (so the two of us hitting the opponent for 4 each turn). But as I was on top on life points, I won.
Game 3: I got torn into pieces on this one. First, I drew only painlands and second, I was outpaced every turn (example: draw a negate on turn 3 after I got hit by a Blightning...). A Volcanic Fallout took out my few beasts, while his ones survived (ashenmoor googer and Shambling Remains). I quickly died.
Result: 1-2 / 3-4 overall.
There were 2 matches remaining, but seeing how bad I went, I decided to drop.
Conclusion:
I definitely aggree with Rafiq now: trying to be aggressive AND trying to control in the same time is an utopia. Yes, on perfect hands, we are able to put our beasts early, and then control the game. But it happened too little on my tournament. Every time I was laying down a threat, I didn't have the necessary mana to counter the answer of my opponent. Maybe I played too aggressively for my list, I don't know.
Overall, the cards I have been pleased of:
- my 2 Warhammers. They have allowed me to win games, and even totally turn the tides (against Rogues for instance). I asked myself every time I got them: Would a Path to Exile be better at that moment? Never the answer has been "yes". So I'm very happy I put 2 in my deck.
- Jace. Unfortunately, I never was able to get him a lot, and I had to side him a bit too much (probably a misplay from myself, I admit), but every time, he fueled my game.
- Infiltrators. They were every time awesome (saved for the Volcanic Fallout of the last match). And my opponents were all scared when I played them, more than when I dropped the Mimic. Especially the Faeries Player.
The cards I was disappointed:
- Cryptics. Yes, I know, I'll get flamed for this, but it was true on my games. Cryptics buy you time. Cryptics is an awesome counter. But Cryptics does not save you. (well, no card really can, maybe the Martial Coup, as Rafiq is trying). And with all our "evasion" creatures, I never used it for alpha strike.
- Vendilion Cliques. They're actually not too bad, but I've been very unlucky casting them. Every time, my opponents ended up with a better card that I took them off (and for my defense, I really think I got them to discard "big" cards)
That's it for now. It was very long writing this.
I'd like to thank all of you for your hints and advice, and I hope this report will be of use to you. I'm not gone from this topic, but now, I definitely need to think about how I can tune my list so it better suits either me or the metagame.
Pakito - Thanks for the report. I think that part of the problem is that people want this deck to be aggro-control and what I mean by that is this: People try to do both at the same time and that is where people get in trouble.
I've been trying to look at this deck as an aggro deck that has some control in it. Once I started looking at it this way; the deck started to play better for me and give me better results. Which is why I like the infiltrator so much. With a noble on the board; that is 3 damage every turn until they find a way to remove it. If I can get a Rafiq down; that means 8 damage and they are on a 3 turn clock.
For example; I've just about stopped second guessing myself in the early part of the games and stopped worrying if they have a way to counter/remove something. What I mean by this is; when I first started to play this deck; if I had a negate in my hand; I would hold back playing something; until I had enough mana to play the spell and the negate. This was causing me to overthink and delay playing a threat. Once I got better at not doing that and I just went with the flow and played. The games got easier.
I'm not as worried about the other player removing something turn 3 as much. If they have the removal; they have it; but if they don't and lets say Rafiq sticks; it really puts them in a deep hole that most decks can't stablize from. But waiting a turn or 2 so that I have counter magic so that I can play both; just gives them an extra turn or 2 to draw it.
This deck is not the hardest to play; but players need to tune it for their play style. My style is more of the aggro style; and so that is how I play it. Others like playing more controlish and have it set up that way. Just tune it for your style and I feel that you will see better results.
Psy
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Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
Brasswire, now I see what you are saying. Gaddock can buy us some more time before they build up a sizable swarm not exactly shut them down. At the least he is a lightning rod that could take some heat off of our other creatures. I can see how he can help. I'll give him some sideboard space (easy sideboarding at any rate, just side out the cryptics).
I particularly want to get rid of their yards because that is how my duel with boat brew went. They recover frightfully fast partly because of their graveyard tech. Recurring mogg fanatics are huge pains. Recurring FODs are even bigger pains. They can chumpblock all day and just get their creatures back. With their harbingers, a ranger of eos can basically mean pay R and tutor a reveillark so they are "running" 8-10 larks (3 Larks, 1-3 harbingers, 4 rangers).
Pakito, listen to Psy. Play with the style you are comfortable with. I would however caution against removing the cryptics. You seriously do not want to do that. They do so much for this deck. You just have to get the hang of using them. As for the cliques, well I can't tell you not to remove them because I'm currently running a list without them (for the sake of the curve).
Here are a couple of stuff I got out of your reports that could help you:
WRT to round 1,You should have mulliganed. You didn't have an early beater, you didn't get jace, and you didn't get a removal spell. That hand would have been on the verge of being viable if one of the lands was a treetop. This might be a bit iffy but i think you might have fared better if you had cut the negates against B/G elves. The way I see it you went control with the wraths. You'll be blowing up your creatures too so you need jace to rebuild 'faster'. Now i know that you might have been thinking that the B/G elf player just loaded his deck with removal spells postboard so i better keep the negates. Its just a personal preference.
WRT round 2, It seems to me that you are waging a counter war against a control deck. Don't ever do this. Against a control deck you should rely on your early beats and cast creatures sparingly. Counter only those cards that would threaten you (their win conditions) or your board position (your win conditions). If you have early beaters the pressure is on your control opponent. Do not get baited into overextending your hand. Play calm and wait for the right stuff to counter. If you have a decent clock, stick with it.
WRT round 2, It seems to me that you are waging a counter war against a control deck. Don't ever do this. Against a control deck you should rely on your early beats and cast creatures sparingly. Counter only those cards that would threaten you (their win conditions) or your board position (your win conditions). If you have early beaters the pressure is on your control opponent. Do not get baited into overextending your hand. Play calm and wait for the right stuff to counter. If you have a decent clock, stick with it.
This, actually, is why I kept the Cliques in my build. Not only can I pre-empt one of their threats, I can see what else they're running, and see what I should save counters for.
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""Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est"
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
This, actually, is why I kept the Cliques in my build. Not only can I pre-empt one of their threats, I can see what else they're running, and see what I should save counters for.
I can't argue with that. Although I have to say that we can still play smart magic even without the cliques. Keep apace of the trends in the metagame and use whatever information your opponents give you in order to make the appropriate decisions. If an opponent uses certain lands, spells, and creatures then you can already make informed hypotheses regarding the type of deck he or she is using. The clique takes a ton of guesswork out of the equation but do remember that even if you pack a set of cliques you are not guaranteed to draw them or cast them at every point in the game. I guess what I am saying is that we should play against our opponent and not think of him/her as a mannequin.
Has anyone besides me (re)tried snakeform yet? It smoothens out the curve (2U/G!) and makes the mimic hit more consistently. It actually helps deal with utility creatures like larks and other huge creature threats like colossi. It even deals with creatures with flying. I don't see the problem if people expect it and hold back blocking/attacking. If they don't block my 2/1 mimic in fear of a snakeform then I'll hit them with 2 and still be up a card. If they block my 5/3 mimic post snakeform then I'll off one of their creatures, deal 4 trampling damage and still be up a card. If they don't attack in fear of a 5/3 mimic trade then I don't take damage. If they do attack then I can off one of their creatures, stave off damage, and recoup a card.
I know that it is a throwback. I just have a feeling that it might be relevant to those hoping to pursue a more aggressive route. Fewer counters but more combat tricks. More aggressive, no?
to Psy: You're exactly right. On some match-ups, I tried to be aggro AND control, and it's not working (and it can't). That's why I need to tune the list to my playstyle (and my low skill, unfortunately).
to Rafiq: No, I will never remove the Cryptics (I never said that btw). It's just that in all my games, I didn't get the chance to use them in order to finish my opponent or do something very big. But I know their potential, and it's common wisdom that it's one of the best standard cards for now. For your thoughts on my matches: against GB Elves, my starting hand contained indeed a Treetop, and that's why I kept it. Unfortunately, I had to "sacrifice" the Treetop on defense to survive one more round...You're probably right about me cutting the Jaces. And even more right that I tried to beat a Control deck in a counter war. It's my fault, but I was very surprised of my opponent's deck, and was not very sure what to do.
to Alteryoda: Yes, Jace is awesome, but unfortunately, I did not see him a lot (probably have sided him out too much, so it's my fault). For the Celestial Purge, that was to take care of Ajani Vengeant as well as the other standard threats, while not giving them a land. And don't worry, I'm not leaving the deck, I'll work even harder on it! I have to tune it to my playstyle!
to all: One of the other things I forgot to mention in my report is: my manabase was great! (shameless promotion on!). I got screwed only one time in starting hand, and with a big bet, it worked like a breeze! If I had to find something to change, I'd say that I was running too many painlands, but they helped to stabilize a lot. Even casting Wrath of God (with its 2 White manas) was not a problem.
Otherwise, we all find that Jace is top notch in this deck. Do you think we could up the count to 4? I know 2 in starting hand is a bit much, but if we can use the first one to depletion while drawing another, that would be awesome, don't you think?
I think I'll try to remove the negates (yes, I know, no counter wrath, but Elves and Kithkins have the same problem anyway, and we have Treetop and lots of creatures), up the Jaces to 4, and put back the Mimics and Infiltrators to 4. While keeping the 2 warhammers, definitely. I'll try to post a list as soon as I tinker it.
I don't think we should go with 4 jaces. For aggro we need to keep the creature count high. We should also use our early turns for creatures. Aggro uses jace as a way to keep the beats coming. For tempo/control jace is used to keep up the disruption and CA so it still doesn't -need- it to be on the board on turn 2. Since the deck is primarily an aggro deck we usually don't need him online until around turn 4 or 5.
Since you are going into a more aggressive mode you can keep the jaces at 3 and put in some more removal. Removal allows the deck to get a leg up against more creature heavy decks.
In the era of uncounterable red mass removal and cheap white removal, i,ve found Call to Heel quite handy. In some (rare) situations it can even be used to bounce the obstacle and deliver a lethal. And all that for two mana.
I also considered four jaces, but having them all being hit by a pithing needle is just too much.
Martial Coup is golden, sometimes i'm just too greedy to properly use it -two days ago i wanted more tokens and didn't left any mana to respond for the broken ambitions.
uh, here goes my first try in decktagging... at least it's readable. must learn more.
for deck tags, put the numbers first like what i did, and they should be clickable.
Call to Heel might be a decent option. i mean, it saves from all removal, even if you must only choose one to save when a Wrath of God sticks.
but to be honest, im not really sure why everyone is trying to replace Negate. sure, its not aggro enough, but hell, if you can stop a spectral procession or a wrath effect. why change? idk. Negate has saved me many a time for me to want to kick it too the curb just for archetype sake.
"Splitting Headache"
1WB - Instant
A train leaves boston at 9:00 am traveling west at 63.5 mph...
... If you can determine, without the use of a calculator, what approximate longitude and lattitude the 2 trains will meet at in the midwest put a 1/1 Freaking Genius token into play under your control."
How hard do we have to work now a days for a little value in this game? ;p
Ended up going 2-1-1 in swiss to make the top 8 (in spot 8); then beat the guy who went undefeated in swiss to make top 4. We ended up spliting top 4.
Matches were as follows:
1st match was against a Blighting deck; won 2-0. Both games were pretty quick and siding in PtE and Celestial Purge made the 2nd game pretty easy going.
2nd match was against a Elvish Piper deck running Hellkite Overlord and a few other bombs. Lost 1-2. Game 1 he got a story circle out and I could not get more then 1 threat on the board. He then got the Piper and Hellkite going and that was it game 1. Game 2 deck rocks he starts slow and I keep bouncing story circle and swing with 2 Stillmoons. Game 3; I go 10 turns before I get a Noble and another 3 turns before I get a white mana source. Lets just say I lost.
3rd match was against a Light from Within Exalted deck won 2-1. I start out decent and he gets Light from Within out (I had no counters in my hand) and then a field marshall that gave all his guys 1st strike and I finally said lets go to game 2 after he was at 40 something life to my 9. 2nd game; he kept overextending and I wrathed the board twice. After that he had no response to my TTV and Rafiq. 3rd match I played 2 stillmoon's and just kept tapping out his creatures with Cryptic for the win.
4th match was an intentional draw. It was against another Bant deck that is built slightly different. He is running Troll's and Snakeform; along with a vivid or two. We went ahead and played 3 games for fun and he won the 1st; I got the 2nd; and then a play mistake in the 3rd gave him the win. Overall it was who ever got the better start won.
Top 8 was against 5CC; I won 2-1. 1st game I started out great until he played a wall of reverence and two plumeveil's which ended up taking him from 6 life to gaining 4 a turn. Two cruel's later it was on to game 2. Game two; he started out slow and I was able to get a Mimic and activate him with an Monk. He wrathed and I played another Noble and a Monk. I was able to stick a Rafiq a turn later and either PtE or charmed his blockers away for the win. Game 3; we both just lay land the 1st two turns. Turn 3 I get a mimic and noble. On turn 4 I play infiltrator and swing for 6. He wraths again and I play Noble and activate TTV. I play Rafiq and he tries to PtE Rafiq at the end of my turn and I use Bant Charm to counter. I get him down to 8 and he taps out to play wall of reverence and Plumeveil. Next turn I draw Cryptic and he was down to 1 open mana I play crypic tapping and drawing and then attack with Rafiq. He had no removal and that won it for me.
So I ended up going 3-1-1 overall and except for the fact that I ended up mana screwed badly again in one game; I'm please how the deck performed. I put back in Elspeth tonight and never got a chance to play her; but I never really missed Jace.
Looking forward to playing again next week. I'm still not sold on my SB yet and since Fae has not been popular in my meta (only 2 players playing it); I'm not sure if I need to keep Cloudthresher in my SB. But PtE and Purge were great along with the Stillmoon's.
Psy
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Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
I posted both here and in the bant thread of the competitive section. The only reason I do so is to be honest I have no idea what the difference is between these two threads. I notice this seems to be a little more agro-ey (I guess?) and the people in the bant competitive section seem to be more focused on control. *shrugs* I have no idea.
Went 4-0 Tonight placing 1st out of 28 people with the following build
3 Rafiq the many
4 Shorecrasher Mimic
4 Rhox war monk
3 Jhessian infiltrator
4 Noble Heirarch
2 Vendilion clique
Sideboard
3 Wrath of god
2 Cloudthresher
3 Flashfreeze
1 Negate
2 (the 1/2 archer guy)
4 BFT
Round 1: Mirror match - His deck was a little heavy on the agro and wasn't running cryptics for some reason. He was running negates / bant charms however and also surprisingly stoic angels. Game one I resolved turn two jhessian infiltrator and turn three rafiq then just laid back and protected them for the game win. Game two he stomped into me with t1 heirarch t2 monk t3 rafiq t4 stoic angel. I meanwhile got color screwed and was left holding bant charm, rafiq of my own, and war monk with no white source. Game three I once again got in for early beats and just locked him down with counterspells and creature removal. 2-1-0 1-0 No sideboarding.
Round 2 : Janky 5cc - This guy is a buddy of mine and he is unable to afford some of the more important cards for the deck. It still manages to lay down some deadly beats but overall suffered from a lack of cryptics and filter lands to truely abuse that which is 5cc. I beat him 2 - 0 with no real reportable plays. 2-0 2-0 SB: +1 negate -1 Jhessian infiltrator
Round 3 : Jund ramp - Game 1 he's on the play and he blows me out with a turn four violent ultimatum while I'm holding cryptic, bant charm, and lands with 3 lands on the board and a jhessian infiltrator. He chooses to blow up my lands and then starts dropping double thresher, BMD, and shriekmaw. I try to fight back but ultimately die.
Game 2: He mulls to five, get's stuck at two land while I come out the door strong. I counter a turn three fertile ground which ends up screwing him.
Game 3 : We fight back and forth and I end up going to 8 life with him still around 20 after him playing a few jund charms and I casting wrath of god to put us both in top deck mode. I've already got a hammer on the field and I proceed to topdeck mimic, hammer, mimic while he topdecks land ramp land. 2-1-0 3-0
Round four: 5cc Game 1 I lay in with an early game rhox war monk, later on equipping hammer to it, and spend the whole game protecting it and gaining massive amounts of life. He holds out for a while and at one point double volcanic fallouts, which I respond with bouncing it back to my hand and drawing a card. I replay it on my turn and just keep trucking in. I win this game
Game 2 : I try to stick early threats but he ends up beating me out. Not much mentionable here. 5CC just does what it's meant to do.
-2 thresher +1 crasher +1 jhessian
Game 3 : we were 5 minutes away from round time so we were trying to hurry. I mull once and keep a hand that's forest, yavimaya coast, u/w filter land, treetop, negate and mimic. I play t1 treetop, t2 mimic, turn three I topdeck a rafiq and play a land and pass. On his turn he decides to evoke a mulldrifter allowing me to cast rafiq on my turn and swing in for 12. I should mention at this point I'm holding a cryptic and two negates. I pass to him. He agonizes for a while and passes to me with four untapped mana on the board. He says show me the counterspell if you got it, I flash my hand, and he scoops.
2-1-0 4-0
Overall I need to work on the sideboard, but the mainboard I was really happy with. Not much I want to change here.
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Currently Playing in T2: Esper Control
Currently Playing in Modern: U/W Control
Went 3-1 tonight and only lost to mana screw the whole night.
1 - W
Round one was against DomainJank.dec. I dominated game one with a Monk+Rafiq combo with countermagic backup.
Game two he manages to stitch together a turn four exploding borders for four and continuous Tukatongue Thallid attacks. I hesitate to remove the creature (obviously I had none out or in my hand), but did it anyway because it was starting to get annoying. I eventually land Rafiq+Monk and two subsequent Drag Down the next two turns take out both. Unfortunately for him, that's the end of his action and I proceed to win on the back of a singleton Treetop Village.
2 - W
Round two was against a Swans+Seismic Assault counterburn deck. Game one I mulligan to five and although I put up a valiant effort, she manages to stick both pieces and a Chandra AND a Jace and proceeds to dominate.
Game two I side in 3x Mark of Asylum and 3x Naturalize and keep a shaky hand with two land and a Mark. I stick the Mark before she has enough mana to counter and it basically shuts off her board control and allows me to plant a few threats. Hierarch+Vendilion Clique+Rafiq= two attack win!
Game three I had to bait out a few counterspells, but I manage to stick another Mark and shortly after a Rafiq with countermagic backup. Three attack phases later and the match is over.
3 - L
Round three I played against Naya.dec complete with Figure of Destiny, Cliffrunner Behemoth, Realmrazer, Ranger of Eos, Banefire, and plenty of other removal. Game one was fairly even. I stick Vendilion Clique third turn and ship a Volcanic Fallout, leaving Banefire and another Fallout in his hand, but with only one mountain in play for him. Next turn I play a Rafiq and go to town in the air for the next two turns. On the turn before my next attack he plays a Stillmoon Cavalier and has two Plains untapped. I swing anyway, not wanting to let up pressure and we trade creatures. Unfortunately for me he proceeds to stitch together the win with Ranger for two Figures, plus two Finks and a Treetop Village.
Game two started with only 15 minutes left in the round. I start out with Noble Hierarch on turn one and a second-turn Vendilion Clique. His turn three consists of killing my Hierarch and after that, my deck decides to hate me and I don't see a white mana source for the rest of the game, while holding a grip of 2x Bant Charm, Path to Exile, Oblivion Ring, and Gaddock Teeg. Needless to say I die to the oncoming horde.
4 - W
Round four I played against a Doran Rock deck and had to mulligan to five in the first game. I kept a hand with one land, a mimic, and a path. I don't draw land for the rest of the game and his turn one Treefolk Harbinger, turn two Doran, turn three Harbinger end the game rather quickly.
Game two I side in two more Paths, and a second Stoic Angel. I lead with Hierarch into turn two hammer into a couple more Hierarchs on turn four. He manages to kill one, but I rip the last one like a champ. This time it was my opponent that got mana flooded and I win easily off of Hierarch beatdown.
Game three was an epic finish to the match. After trading a couple Bant Charms for a couple Dorans, I manage to stabalize at five life with a couple Hierarchs. A Monk comes down on my side and begins to net me a few life a turn. He casts Wrath and I consider countering it, but the advantage I gain by him losing his potential beatsticks (two harbingers and an Indominatable Ancients) leads me to allow it to resolve. I had a hand with two Stoic Angels, a Battlegrace angel, and another Monk. I play the first Stoic, which he proceeds to Austere Command away. Then I get the next one down and in for one attack before she meets the same fate. Then I drop Battlegrace and finish with her, bringing me back up over 20 in the process.
I think the only change I'm making to my deck is taking out one Reflecting Pool and adding another Brushland. That no white mana in round 3 game 2 was just aggravating as all hell. Had I drawn it any time between turns 4-10 I could have easily won that game as I had two Reflecting pools out and enough mana to double Bant Charm and Path.
I really like the deck, though and dealing copious amounts of damage with one trampling, lifelinking creature is just satisfying
EDIT: It also won games against a Blightning burn/discard deck, some Esper disruption build, a Howling Mine/Kederekt Parasite/Spiteful Visions deck, and a Quillspike combo deck that I played before and after the tournament.
whenever I read through tourney reports and they have something like this (something that did not happen) I always question the whole report...
have you posted your list canman?
Oh, wait. You're right. I know he went for a Murmuring Bosk, but I guess he couldn't have played it turn two. So either he played the harbinger turn two and Doran turn three, or he did it turn one and had to wait until turn three.
Sorry. I was running on two hours of sleep that day and I also worked ten hours AND it was late when I posted this report. Details may have escaped me.
And for reference, here is the list I ran last night:
I don't run Cryptics because I only have one and I don't want to run a miser's copy. Maybe I should, since had I drawn it that game where I had no white mana I probably would have won. And like I said, the only change I see so far is -1 Reflecting Pool and +1 Brushland.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
I'm glad some of you are trying martial coup. I strongly urge the rest of you to try it out in place of the negates.
It seems like the lists are converging to a single list with only a few metagame variations. The bone of contention appears to be in the usage of tempo cards and counters.
As an aside, I don't like reflecting pools in this deck. The deck would be better off with painlands and filters.
After a bit more tinkering, I've decided I should be running Sowers in the board rather than Deft Duelists. I originally put them in there for the red decks so that I could have a creature or two that they would have to spend a sweep effect on, but I haven't run into too many red decks in my area and I now have the Marks of Asylum to fend off that problem.
So yeah -2 Duelist +2 Sower. I also thought about Glen Elendra Archmage in there instead of Sower. Thoughts?
EDIT: I do agree that a playset of Reflecting Pools was too many, but I don't think they necessarily hurt the deck and I would much rather keep a hand of one filter and a pool than a hand of two filters, but to each their own. I don't think there is one completely correct way to run this manabase.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
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But yeah, Relic is better for the long haul. Definitely.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Brasswire, full set of gaddock teeg in the board and a couple of remove souls could work but that would mean that we have to side out the cryptics. If your metagame is full of boat brew decks then that is a reasonable sideboard package. Gaddock has to be protected though. Boat brew has path to exile, scms, and fanatics that can be used to take him out.
I'd have to disagree with you on the graveyard aspect though. The graveyard is a crucial aspect of the boat brew gameplan. Mogg fanatics, flamekin harbingers, white orchids, siege gang commanders, and figures of destiny are already efficient and powerful creatures. What more if they have the ability to come back again and again? Sure we have path to exiles and to a lesser extent bant charms but will you be willing to path a fanatic early on? Boat brew is about direct (tutoring, CITP effects) and indirect (recursion) card advantage. If we take out one of those aspects we take out a part of their gameplan.
That reminds me, I have to put in those relics in my sideboard. That one hour duel with my boat brew toting friend taught me how important they are against lark decks.
I disagree that he has to be protected. He's a speedbump. A good one, but he's not crucial to the deck. But you force them to use resources dealing with him and screw up their curve leaving them with dead cards in hand in the meantime. It's not like they can Fanatic your Hierarch and then double Fanatic Teeg, and if they're wasting their limited removal on Teeg then good for us. Not to mention that he serves a double function for us as a nice two-drop that can put on pressure in the early game. I'm not saying that he's the only answer or even the best answer, but he is easily superior to something like Relic IMHO which is a dead sideboard slot in near every other matchup and has no effect on the game unless/until they get the Reveillark machine going.
I understand what you're saying. My point is that I don't see attacking the recursion aspect as helping very much. Even without that the deck is still powerful enough, with enough card advantage to beat you. They don't even need 'Lark to win. If your sideboard cards aren't going to be that much help then what's the point. You need something that does more than just stop Reveillark's ability. Which is why I advocate Teeg and Remove Soul for this matchup.
I'm thinking I'll try out the teeg idea so my sideboard for next week will look like
3x Remove Soul
4x Burrenton forge tender
3x Guttural Response
1x Loxodon Warhammer
3 Reflecting Pool
3 Flooded Grove
2 Mystic Gate
2 Seaside Citadel
2 Treetop Village
4 Brushland
3 Yavimaya Coast
2 Adarkar Wastes
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Shorecrasher Mimic
4 Rafiq of the Many
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Jhessian Infiltrator
4 Rhox War Monk
3 Vendillion Clique
Spells 13
4 Cryptic Command
4 Bant Charm
3 Negate
2 Jace Beleren
3 Wrath of God
3 Cloudthresher
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Path to Exile
3 Celestial Purge
With the above list; I'm 10-2-3 so far in matches over the last 3 weeks. I'm still not sold on Jace and will be testing Elspeth again next weekend (I've just been running Jace the last 2 weeks). I've also been changing up the SB each of the last three weeks to test various cards. I might be trying pithing needle next weekend and see how it goes.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
so, here is my report as I promised.
My list has stayed the same (go here if you wanna check out).
We were 281 players at this NQ, meaning there were 15 places for the Nationals. And to qualify, you had to go for at least 7-2 (9 rounds) with a good % opposing win.
1st Match: G/B Elves
I really get stomped during this match, it was absolutely awful. I won the toss.
Game 1: I kept a slow hand with 4 lands, a Vendilion, a Cryptic and a Negate (probably should have mulliganed, but the 4 lands I had could allow me to cast Cryptic turn 4). And my opponent went: T1 Llanowar, T2 Wolf Skull Shaman T3 Double Vanquisher T4 Liege. My Vendilion Clique took away a Profane Command. I managed to resist a bit with the Cryptic, but I drew only lands and...another Vendilion. I got swarmed and finished me with a Profane he had drawn in replacement from my Vendilion. Just plain bad luck...
Siding: -3 Jace (was afraid of being swarmed) +3 Wrath
Game 2: I decided to go first. Opening hand: 3 lands, Hierarch, Rhox, Rafiq and a Wrath, so I kept. I successively played my hierarch, my monk and Rafiq on my 3 turns. Unfortunately, Rafiq went down with a Eyeblight's Ending. I began to get swarmed again: Wolf Skull Shaman (with kinship almost every turn), Cameleon Colossus and an Imperious Perfect. So I wrathed, my opponent had only 1 card remaining. But the card was another Colossus he played on his turn, and at end of my turn, flashed a Cloudthresher. I couldn't hold it (he had mana to double the Cameleon as well), and quickly died.
Overall, I just couldn't keep up with all his creatures (not to mention the Mutavault and Treetop), and couldn't control him enough...
Result: 0-2 / 0-1 overall
2nd Match: Weird WU Control
A very strange deck, consisting of an incredible load of removal (Remove soul, negate, oblivion ring, path to exile, cryptic command, martial coup), which kills with tokens from spectral procession, rise of the hobgoblins (!!) or from the coup. I won the toss.
Game 1: I went T1 Hierarch, T2 Rhox. And after this, all my spells were countered!!! Yes, all of them. Unfortunately as well, I was stuck at 3 lands for a lot of time, so I never was able to outcounter him. He took a few hits from the Rhox, recovered with a Kiss of the Amesha, and began to cast 2 Spectral Procession and one Rise of the Hobgoblins. So, by giving first strike to his creatures, he was able to kill my Rhox on defend, and slowly killed me with his flying creatures.
Siding: -4 Bant Charms, -1 Negate, +3 Guttural Response, +2 Cloudthresher.
Game 2: I went first and began to stomp him with a Mimic connected to an Infiltrator, and then connected to a Rhox. The Rhox get Oblivioned. I countered a Cryptic with a Guttural on the next turn, and things began to look good. He was at 6. And here it goes again: Kiss of the Amesha one time, and then a second time!! I successfuly cast a Rafiq, bringing him again to 6. And a Martial coup well placed ruined my hopes of winning (no counters in my hand at that time...), followed by another Rise of the Hobgoblins. I got swarmed and died.
Result: 0-2 / 0-2 overall
3rd Match: Bant aggro
Not really a mirror match, as he played "controlling" creatures like Gaddock and Stoic Angel. He only had one Rafiq...I won the toss (third time in a row, yeah!)
Game 1: Opening hand: 6 lands and Jace! ouch! Mulliganed to 6. Had a good hand (Mimic, Rafiq, Monk and Cryptic) but the 2 lands were filters!!! But I was so desperate (0-2 so far) that I kept it (poker style!). And it worked, my next draw was a brushland that allowed me to cast everything I wanted. Well, almost, cause he played Gaddock Teeg on turn 2, and the Cryptic stayed in my hand all day long. Rafiq took his Bant charm, unfortunately. And on the next turn, when all my creatures were tapped, he played Stoic Angel. But she took her Bant charm as well, and I attacked for victory.
I decided to side nothing, as I thought my match-up was favorable (more aggressive than him).
Game 2: I stomped him again. Nothing much to say on this one, it was really easy. Oh, a funny thing: I countered his Bant charm with...a Bant charm!
Result: 2-0 / 1-2 overall
4th Match: Mono Black Rogues
Unusual deck for the metagame, but one of my usual sparring partners used to play a deck like this, so I knew what to do and what to remove. I lost the toss.
Game 1: He began to swarm me very fast: a Prickly Boggart T1 allowed him to cast successfully all his prowl costs. So he had an Oona Blackguard, followed by a Marsh Flitter with 3 2/2 tokens. I Bant Charmed the Oona, but he kept attacking me. I was at 1 life, with a Rhox and 2 hierarchs when I drew...Loxodon Warhammer!!! And a Rhox with double lifelink, 2 exalts and trample is nothing to make fun of! So I went back to 17 life (OMG), and he never recovered from this.
Siding: -3 Jaces (too many "fear" creatures) ; +3 Wraths
Game 2: I don't remember too well this game (my notes are not very precise on it), but I recall I won with an Infiltrator with a Warhammer, with a Rafiq for the kill. That was sick.
Result: 2-0 / 2-2 overall, things began to go better
5th Match: Faeries
Finally a "common" deck of the metagame (with the GB Elves, of course). I lost the toss.
Game 1: I stomped him quite fast (he had not a great opening hand). He managed to control me a bit with 3 Broken Ambitions (yes, he was playing them!) and a Cryptic. A well timed Jace allowed me to keep up with the pace. So I put him to 3 with an Infiltrator followed by a Rafiq while he was hitting himself with a Bitterblossom. And he managed to stabilize with a Sower of Temptation stealing my Rafiq. I couldn't cast my Bant Charm on his Sower due to Scion of Oona. I attacked again with my Infiltrator, putting him to 1, and said: End of Turn with a smile. But he championned his bitterblossom that would have killed him with a Mistbind Clique, followed by an agony warp on my Infiltrator....I then went down...I was so close, it was insane.
Siding: -3 Negate, -2 Vendilion Clique, +3 Guttural Response, +2 Cloudthresher.
Game 2: A remake from game 1 unfortunately: I stomped him at first, putting him to 6, and he slowly began to stabilize and killed me. I never hit my side cards that would have allowed me to stand a chance.
Result: 0-2 / 2-3 overall
6th Match: GR Warriors
I won't go into details for that one: I had perfect hands on game 1 and killed him fast when he was stuck at 3 lands (and he blasted the "wrong" creatures, allowing me to keep Rafiq on table). Game 2 was good as well: he played nearly all his hand, beginning to stomp me...until I wrathed. I was then able to kill him with a Treetop equipped by 2 loxodon warhammers.
Result: 2-0 / 3-3 overall
7th Match: BR Blightning
A slightly unusual deck list: he had almost only creatures, with a few spells which were Blightning and Volcanic Fallout (ouch!). I lost the toss.
Game 1: T1 Mogg from him. I kept a "control only" land, consisting of a Negate, a Bant Charm and a Cryptic, with 4 lands allowing me to cast Cryptic turn 4. It was unfortunately a big mistake. His mogg managed to hit me 5 times before I put down a creature (a hierarch he killed me, of course). I countered his turn 3 Blightning with a Negate. I bought some time with my Cryptic, countering an Ashenmoor Gouger and sending him back his Ghitu encampment to his hand. I had to Bant Charm an Ashenmoor Liege unfortunately, loosing 4 life in the process. And he killed me while I was at 2 with a Volcanic Fallout, when I had a Negate in hand...
Siding: +4 Burrenton Forge Tender, +3 Celestial Purge, -3 Jace (I thought he had real blasts...), -3 Mimics (only 1 life) -1 Bant Charm
Game 2: A very weird game. We both were stuck at 2 lands for a long time. But I kept a hand with...3 Forge Tenders! So I was able to hit him for 1 or 2 each turn while keeping one for defense as he had put mogg and 2 figures of destiny. We then began to draw lands and I managed to put down a Rafiq while he put down 2 goblin outlanders (so the two of us hitting the opponent for 4 each turn). But as I was on top on life points, I won.
Game 3: I got torn into pieces on this one. First, I drew only painlands and second, I was outpaced every turn (example: draw a negate on turn 3 after I got hit by a Blightning...). A Volcanic Fallout took out my few beasts, while his ones survived (ashenmoor googer and Shambling Remains). I quickly died.
Result: 1-2 / 3-4 overall.
There were 2 matches remaining, but seeing how bad I went, I decided to drop.
Conclusion:
I definitely aggree with Rafiq now: trying to be aggressive AND trying to control in the same time is an utopia. Yes, on perfect hands, we are able to put our beasts early, and then control the game. But it happened too little on my tournament. Every time I was laying down a threat, I didn't have the necessary mana to counter the answer of my opponent. Maybe I played too aggressively for my list, I don't know.
Overall, the cards I have been pleased of:
- my 2 Warhammers. They have allowed me to win games, and even totally turn the tides (against Rogues for instance). I asked myself every time I got them: Would a Path to Exile be better at that moment? Never the answer has been "yes". So I'm very happy I put 2 in my deck.
- Jace. Unfortunately, I never was able to get him a lot, and I had to side him a bit too much (probably a misplay from myself, I admit), but every time, he fueled my game.
- Infiltrators. They were every time awesome (saved for the Volcanic Fallout of the last match). And my opponents were all scared when I played them, more than when I dropped the Mimic. Especially the Faeries Player.
The cards I was disappointed:
- Cryptics. Yes, I know, I'll get flamed for this, but it was true on my games. Cryptics buy you time. Cryptics is an awesome counter. But Cryptics does not save you. (well, no card really can, maybe the Martial Coup, as Rafiq is trying). And with all our "evasion" creatures, I never used it for alpha strike.
- Vendilion Cliques. They're actually not too bad, but I've been very unlucky casting them. Every time, my opponents ended up with a better card that I took them off (and for my defense, I really think I got them to discard "big" cards)
That's it for now. It was very long writing this.
I'd like to thank all of you for your hints and advice, and I hope this report will be of use to you. I'm not gone from this topic, but now, I definitely need to think about how I can tune my list so it better suits either me or the metagame.
I've been trying to look at this deck as an aggro deck that has some control in it. Once I started looking at it this way; the deck started to play better for me and give me better results. Which is why I like the infiltrator so much. With a noble on the board; that is 3 damage every turn until they find a way to remove it. If I can get a Rafiq down; that means 8 damage and they are on a 3 turn clock.
For example; I've just about stopped second guessing myself in the early part of the games and stopped worrying if they have a way to counter/remove something. What I mean by this is; when I first started to play this deck; if I had a negate in my hand; I would hold back playing something; until I had enough mana to play the spell and the negate. This was causing me to overthink and delay playing a threat. Once I got better at not doing that and I just went with the flow and played. The games got easier.
I'm not as worried about the other player removing something turn 3 as much. If they have the removal; they have it; but if they don't and lets say Rafiq sticks; it really puts them in a deep hole that most decks can't stablize from. But waiting a turn or 2 so that I have counter magic so that I can play both; just gives them an extra turn or 2 to draw it.
This deck is not the hardest to play; but players need to tune it for their play style. My style is more of the aggro style; and so that is how I play it. Others like playing more controlish and have it set up that way. Just tune it for your style and I feel that you will see better results.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
I particularly want to get rid of their yards because that is how my duel with boat brew went. They recover frightfully fast partly because of their graveyard tech. Recurring mogg fanatics are huge pains. Recurring FODs are even bigger pains. They can chumpblock all day and just get their creatures back. With their harbingers, a ranger of eos can basically mean pay R and tutor a reveillark so they are "running" 8-10 larks (3 Larks, 1-3 harbingers, 4 rangers).
Pakito, listen to Psy. Play with the style you are comfortable with. I would however caution against removing the cryptics. You seriously do not want to do that. They do so much for this deck. You just have to get the hang of using them. As for the cliques, well I can't tell you not to remove them because I'm currently running a list without them (for the sake of the curve).
Here are a couple of stuff I got out of your reports that could help you:
WRT to round 1,You should have mulliganed. You didn't have an early beater, you didn't get jace, and you didn't get a removal spell. That hand would have been on the verge of being viable if one of the lands was a treetop. This might be a bit iffy but i think you might have fared better if you had cut the negates against B/G elves. The way I see it you went control with the wraths. You'll be blowing up your creatures too so you need jace to rebuild 'faster'. Now i know that you might have been thinking that the B/G elf player just loaded his deck with removal spells postboard so i better keep the negates. Its just a personal preference.
WRT round 2, It seems to me that you are waging a counter war against a control deck. Don't ever do this. Against a control deck you should rely on your early beats and cast creatures sparingly. Counter only those cards that would threaten you (their win conditions) or your board position (your win conditions). If you have early beaters the pressure is on your control opponent. Do not get baited into overextending your hand. Play calm and wait for the right stuff to counter. If you have a decent clock, stick with it.
This, actually, is why I kept the Cliques in my build. Not only can I pre-empt one of their threats, I can see what else they're running, and see what I should save counters for.
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
I can't argue with that. Although I have to say that we can still play smart magic even without the cliques. Keep apace of the trends in the metagame and use whatever information your opponents give you in order to make the appropriate decisions. If an opponent uses certain lands, spells, and creatures then you can already make informed hypotheses regarding the type of deck he or she is using. The clique takes a ton of guesswork out of the equation but do remember that even if you pack a set of cliques you are not guaranteed to draw them or cast them at every point in the game. I guess what I am saying is that we should play against our opponent and not think of him/her as a mannequin.
Has anyone besides me (re)tried snakeform yet? It smoothens out the curve (2U/G!) and makes the mimic hit more consistently. It actually helps deal with utility creatures like larks and other huge creature threats like colossi. It even deals with creatures with flying. I don't see the problem if people expect it and hold back blocking/attacking. If they don't block my 2/1 mimic in fear of a snakeform then I'll hit them with 2 and still be up a card. If they block my 5/3 mimic post snakeform then I'll off one of their creatures, deal 4 trampling damage and still be up a card. If they don't attack in fear of a 5/3 mimic trade then I don't take damage. If they do attack then I can off one of their creatures, stave off damage, and recoup a card.
I know that it is a throwback. I just have a feeling that it might be relevant to those hoping to pursue a more aggressive route. Fewer counters but more combat tricks. More aggressive, no?
to Psy: You're exactly right. On some match-ups, I tried to be aggro AND control, and it's not working (and it can't). That's why I need to tune the list to my playstyle (and my low skill, unfortunately).
to Rafiq: No, I will never remove the Cryptics (I never said that btw). It's just that in all my games, I didn't get the chance to use them in order to finish my opponent or do something very big. But I know their potential, and it's common wisdom that it's one of the best standard cards for now. For your thoughts on my matches: against GB Elves, my starting hand contained indeed a Treetop, and that's why I kept it. Unfortunately, I had to "sacrifice" the Treetop on defense to survive one more round...You're probably right about me cutting the Jaces. And even more right that I tried to beat a Control deck in a counter war. It's my fault, but I was very surprised of my opponent's deck, and was not very sure what to do.
to Alteryoda: Yes, Jace is awesome, but unfortunately, I did not see him a lot (probably have sided him out too much, so it's my fault). For the Celestial Purge, that was to take care of Ajani Vengeant as well as the other standard threats, while not giving them a land. And don't worry, I'm not leaving the deck, I'll work even harder on it! I have to tune it to my playstyle!
to all: One of the other things I forgot to mention in my report is: my manabase was great! (shameless promotion on!). I got screwed only one time in starting hand, and with a big bet, it worked like a breeze! If I had to find something to change, I'd say that I was running too many painlands, but they helped to stabilize a lot. Even casting Wrath of God (with its 2 White manas) was not a problem.
Otherwise, we all find that Jace is top notch in this deck. Do you think we could up the count to 4? I know 2 in starting hand is a bit much, but if we can use the first one to depletion while drawing another, that would be awesome, don't you think?
I think I'll try to remove the negates (yes, I know, no counter wrath, but Elves and Kithkins have the same problem anyway, and we have Treetop and lots of creatures), up the Jaces to 4, and put back the Mimics and Infiltrators to 4. While keeping the 2 warhammers, definitely. I'll try to post a list as soon as I tinker it.
Thanks for your comments, I appreciate it.
Since you are going into a more aggressive mode you can keep the jaces at 3 and put in some more removal. Removal allows the deck to get a leg up against more creature heavy decks.
for deck tags, put the numbers first like what i did, and they should be clickable.
Call to Heel might be a decent option. i mean, it saves from all removal, even if you must only choose one to save when a Wrath of God sticks.
but to be honest, im not really sure why everyone is trying to replace Negate. sure, its not aggro enough, but hell, if you can stop a spectral procession or a wrath effect. why change? idk. Negate has saved me many a time for me to want to kick it too the curb just for archetype sake.
Lapse of Certainty would be a better card against wrath. Timewalk effects are especially good with a few planeswalkers.
Matches were as follows:
1st match was against a Blighting deck; won 2-0. Both games were pretty quick and siding in PtE and Celestial Purge made the 2nd game pretty easy going.
2nd match was against a Elvish Piper deck running Hellkite Overlord and a few other bombs. Lost 1-2. Game 1 he got a story circle out and I could not get more then 1 threat on the board. He then got the Piper and Hellkite going and that was it game 1. Game 2 deck rocks he starts slow and I keep bouncing story circle and swing with 2 Stillmoons. Game 3; I go 10 turns before I get a Noble and another 3 turns before I get a white mana source. Lets just say I lost.
3rd match was against a Light from Within Exalted deck won 2-1. I start out decent and he gets Light from Within out (I had no counters in my hand) and then a field marshall that gave all his guys 1st strike and I finally said lets go to game 2 after he was at 40 something life to my 9. 2nd game; he kept overextending and I wrathed the board twice. After that he had no response to my TTV and Rafiq. 3rd match I played 2 stillmoon's and just kept tapping out his creatures with Cryptic for the win.
4th match was an intentional draw. It was against another Bant deck that is built slightly different. He is running Troll's and Snakeform; along with a vivid or two. We went ahead and played 3 games for fun and he won the 1st; I got the 2nd; and then a play mistake in the 3rd gave him the win. Overall it was who ever got the better start won.
Top 8 was against 5CC; I won 2-1. 1st game I started out great until he played a wall of reverence and two plumeveil's which ended up taking him from 6 life to gaining 4 a turn. Two cruel's later it was on to game 2. Game two; he started out slow and I was able to get a Mimic and activate him with an Monk. He wrathed and I played another Noble and a Monk. I was able to stick a Rafiq a turn later and either PtE or charmed his blockers away for the win. Game 3; we both just lay land the 1st two turns. Turn 3 I get a mimic and noble. On turn 4 I play infiltrator and swing for 6. He wraths again and I play Noble and activate TTV. I play Rafiq and he tries to PtE Rafiq at the end of my turn and I use Bant Charm to counter. I get him down to 8 and he taps out to play wall of reverence and Plumeveil. Next turn I draw Cryptic and he was down to 1 open mana I play crypic tapping and drawing and then attack with Rafiq. He had no removal and that won it for me.
So I ended up going 3-1-1 overall and except for the fact that I ended up mana screwed badly again in one game; I'm please how the deck performed. I put back in Elspeth tonight and never got a chance to play her; but I never really missed Jace.
Looking forward to playing again next week. I'm still not sold on my SB yet and since Fae has not been popular in my meta (only 2 players playing it); I'm not sure if I need to keep Cloudthresher in my SB. But PtE and Purge were great along with the Stillmoon's.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
Went 4-0 Tonight placing 1st out of 28 people with the following build
3 Rafiq the many
4 Shorecrasher Mimic
4 Rhox war monk
3 Jhessian infiltrator
4 Noble Heirarch
2 Vendilion clique
2 Jace
2 Loxodon warhammer
4 Cryptic Command
3 Snakeform
3 Bant charm
3 Negate
23 land (including 3 treetop village)
Sideboard
3 Wrath of god
2 Cloudthresher
3 Flashfreeze
1 Negate
2 (the 1/2 archer guy)
4 BFT
Round 1: Mirror match - His deck was a little heavy on the agro and wasn't running cryptics for some reason. He was running negates / bant charms however and also surprisingly stoic angels. Game one I resolved turn two jhessian infiltrator and turn three rafiq then just laid back and protected them for the game win. Game two he stomped into me with t1 heirarch t2 monk t3 rafiq t4 stoic angel. I meanwhile got color screwed and was left holding bant charm, rafiq of my own, and war monk with no white source. Game three I once again got in for early beats and just locked him down with counterspells and creature removal. 2-1-0 1-0 No sideboarding.
Round 2 : Janky 5cc - This guy is a buddy of mine and he is unable to afford some of the more important cards for the deck. It still manages to lay down some deadly beats but overall suffered from a lack of cryptics and filter lands to truely abuse that which is 5cc. I beat him 2 - 0 with no real reportable plays. 2-0 2-0 SB: +1 negate -1 Jhessian infiltrator
Round 3 : Jund ramp - Game 1 he's on the play and he blows me out with a turn four violent ultimatum while I'm holding cryptic, bant charm, and lands with 3 lands on the board and a jhessian infiltrator. He chooses to blow up my lands and then starts dropping double thresher, BMD, and shriekmaw. I try to fight back but ultimately die.
-3 negate -1 jace -1 infiltrator -1 mimic
+3 *** +3 flashfreeze
Game 2: He mulls to five, get's stuck at two land while I come out the door strong. I counter a turn three fertile ground which ends up screwing him.
Game 3 : We fight back and forth and I end up going to 8 life with him still around 20 after him playing a few jund charms and I casting wrath of god to put us both in top deck mode. I've already got a hammer on the field and I proceed to topdeck mimic, hammer, mimic while he topdecks land ramp land. 2-1-0 3-0
Round four: 5cc Game 1 I lay in with an early game rhox war monk, later on equipping hammer to it, and spend the whole game protecting it and gaining massive amounts of life. He holds out for a while and at one point double volcanic fallouts, which I respond with bouncing it back to my hand and drawing a card. I replay it on my turn and just keep trucking in. I win this game
-1 jace -1 crasher -1 jhessian
+1 negate +2 thresher
Game 2 : I try to stick early threats but he ends up beating me out. Not much mentionable here. 5CC just does what it's meant to do.
-2 thresher +1 crasher +1 jhessian
Game 3 : we were 5 minutes away from round time so we were trying to hurry. I mull once and keep a hand that's forest, yavimaya coast, u/w filter land, treetop, negate and mimic. I play t1 treetop, t2 mimic, turn three I topdeck a rafiq and play a land and pass. On his turn he decides to evoke a mulldrifter allowing me to cast rafiq on my turn and swing in for 12. I should mention at this point I'm holding a cryptic and two negates. I pass to him. He agonizes for a while and passes to me with four untapped mana on the board. He says show me the counterspell if you got it, I flash my hand, and he scoops.
2-1-0 4-0
Overall I need to work on the sideboard, but the mainboard I was really happy with. Not much I want to change here.
Currently Playing in Modern: U/W Control
1 - W
Round one was against DomainJank.dec. I dominated game one with a Monk+Rafiq combo with countermagic backup.
Game two he manages to stitch together a turn four exploding borders for four and continuous Tukatongue Thallid attacks. I hesitate to remove the creature (obviously I had none out or in my hand), but did it anyway because it was starting to get annoying. I eventually land Rafiq+Monk and two subsequent Drag Down the next two turns take out both. Unfortunately for him, that's the end of his action and I proceed to win on the back of a singleton Treetop Village.
2 - W
Round two was against a Swans+Seismic Assault counterburn deck. Game one I mulligan to five and although I put up a valiant effort, she manages to stick both pieces and a Chandra AND a Jace and proceeds to dominate.
Game two I side in 3x Mark of Asylum and 3x Naturalize and keep a shaky hand with two land and a Mark. I stick the Mark before she has enough mana to counter and it basically shuts off her board control and allows me to plant a few threats. Hierarch+Vendilion Clique+Rafiq= two attack win!
Game three I had to bait out a few counterspells, but I manage to stick another Mark and shortly after a Rafiq with countermagic backup. Three attack phases later and the match is over.
3 - L
Round three I played against Naya.dec complete with Figure of Destiny, Cliffrunner Behemoth, Realmrazer, Ranger of Eos, Banefire, and plenty of other removal. Game one was fairly even. I stick Vendilion Clique third turn and ship a Volcanic Fallout, leaving Banefire and another Fallout in his hand, but with only one mountain in play for him. Next turn I play a Rafiq and go to town in the air for the next two turns. On the turn before my next attack he plays a Stillmoon Cavalier and has two Plains untapped. I swing anyway, not wanting to let up pressure and we trade creatures. Unfortunately for me he proceeds to stitch together the win with Ranger for two Figures, plus two Finks and a Treetop Village.
Game two started with only 15 minutes left in the round. I start out with Noble Hierarch on turn one and a second-turn Vendilion Clique. His turn three consists of killing my Hierarch and after that, my deck decides to hate me and I don't see a white mana source for the rest of the game, while holding a grip of 2x Bant Charm, Path to Exile, Oblivion Ring, and Gaddock Teeg. Needless to say I die to the oncoming horde.
4 - W
Round four I played against a Doran Rock deck and had to mulligan to five in the first game. I kept a hand with one land, a mimic, and a path. I don't draw land for the rest of the game and his turn one Treefolk Harbinger, turn two Doran, turn three Harbinger end the game rather quickly.
Game two I side in two more Paths, and a second Stoic Angel. I lead with Hierarch into turn two hammer into a couple more Hierarchs on turn four. He manages to kill one, but I rip the last one like a champ. This time it was my opponent that got mana flooded and I win easily off of Hierarch beatdown.
Game three was an epic finish to the match. After trading a couple Bant Charms for a couple Dorans, I manage to stabalize at five life with a couple Hierarchs. A Monk comes down on my side and begins to net me a few life a turn. He casts Wrath and I consider countering it, but the advantage I gain by him losing his potential beatsticks (two harbingers and an Indominatable Ancients) leads me to allow it to resolve. I had a hand with two Stoic Angels, a Battlegrace angel, and another Monk. I play the first Stoic, which he proceeds to Austere Command away. Then I get the next one down and in for one attack before she meets the same fate. Then I drop Battlegrace and finish with her, bringing me back up over 20 in the process.
I think the only change I'm making to my deck is taking out one Reflecting Pool and adding another Brushland. That no white mana in round 3 game 2 was just aggravating as all hell. Had I drawn it any time between turns 4-10 I could have easily won that game as I had two Reflecting pools out and enough mana to double Bant Charm and Path.
I really like the deck, though and dealing copious amounts of damage with one trampling, lifelinking creature is just satisfying
EDIT: It also won games against a Blightning burn/discard deck, some Esper disruption build, a Howling Mine/Kederekt Parasite/Spiteful Visions deck, and a Quillspike combo deck that I played before and after the tournament.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
ummmm how?
whenever I read through tourney reports and they have something like this (something that did not happen) I always question the whole report...
have you posted your list canman?
Oh, wait. You're right. I know he went for a Murmuring Bosk, but I guess he couldn't have played it turn two. So either he played the harbinger turn two and Doran turn three, or he did it turn one and had to wait until turn three.
Sorry. I was running on two hours of sleep that day and I also worked ten hours AND it was late when I posted this report. Details may have escaped me.
And for reference, here is the list I ran last night:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [10E] Yavimaya Coast
2 [10E] Treetop Village
1 [10E] Brushland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [EVE] Flooded Grove
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
2 [ALA] Seaside Citadel
4 [UNH] Forest
1 [10E] Adarkar Wastes
// Creatures
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
3 [EVE] Shorecrasher Mimic
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
3 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
2 [ALA] Battlegrace Angel
1 [ALA] Stoic Angel
// Spells
2 [CNF] Path to Exile
4 [MOR] Negate
4 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
1 [10E] Loxodon Warhammer
4 [ALA] Bant Charm
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [ALA] Naturalize
SB: 3 [CNF] Mark of Asylum
SB: 2 [ALA] Deft Duelist
SB: 1 [ALA] Stoic Angel
SB: 2 [LRW] Cloudthresher
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
I don't run Cryptics because I only have one and I don't want to run a miser's copy. Maybe I should, since had I drawn it that game where I had no white mana I probably would have won. And like I said, the only change I see so far is -1 Reflecting Pool and +1 Brushland.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Signature from Nakamura and Heroes of the Planes Studios.
MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24
It seems like the lists are converging to a single list with only a few metagame variations. The bone of contention appears to be in the usage of tempo cards and counters.
As an aside, I don't like reflecting pools in this deck. The deck would be better off with painlands and filters.
So yeah -2 Duelist +2 Sower. I also thought about Glen Elendra Archmage in there instead of Sower. Thoughts?
EDIT: I do agree that a playset of Reflecting Pools was too many, but I don't think they necessarily hurt the deck and I would much rather keep a hand of one filter and a pool than a hand of two filters, but to each their own. I don't think there is one completely correct way to run this manabase.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.