So since I saw this, I got rather excited about the prospect of playing it, if not only for hte fact that it looks as if it could be decent to good, but also because it looks fun...
I'm going to play test this some, see what I can do with it. I already don't like it against my cousin's aggro-fish, which wins weekly in FNM, but I'm writing that off as player error at the moment to see if I can fix it.
So since I saw this, I got rather excited about the prospect of playing it, if not only for hte fact that it looks as if it could be decent to good, but also because it looks fun...
I'm going to play test this some, see what I can do with it. I already don't like it against my cousin's aggro-fish, which wins weekly in FNM, but I'm writing that off as player error at the moment to see if I can fix it.
This is just an idea....since your running the "tutor" build why dont you include a singleton story circle/tool box of enchantments.....
OR
I think you could also benefit from Martyr of Sandsbeing in your deck since you mentioned your having trouble with your borthers aggro and almost your whole deck is white.
Probably.....
-2 Darkness
-2 Pollen Lullaby (you have enough fog effects)
I've been tinkering with a 'morph' sideboard, that would let you play both the strict consistent version game 1, and if necessary side in the toolbox enchantments and tutors that you would need to be able to win better in game 2. It seems to be doing well thus far, using Beseech the Queen instead of Idyllic (since my build is more black than white).
MikeMartin: See I would cut X2 Darkness, and x4 Holy Day and add in X4 Martyr of Sands and X2 Pollen Lullaby. Pollen's can be essentially a double fog in the sense that if you win the clash, they do not untap. Holy Day's are one mana yes, but by the time you are going to cast them, you will have enough mana for the other fogs.
Also, I would run the toolbox effect with the enchantments. Move Wrath to the sideboard and bring it out if needed, but with enough fogs, you may not need it main decked. Run Story Circle, Runed Halo, Oblivion Ring, etc.
Sorry...I haven't checked this thread for a while as I was out of the country for a few weeks.
I moved from online to the table with this deck and actually have it built...
Here is the list I'm running with decent success...it's hilarious for casual and has a decent win-rate against the real decks that I've tested against.
Hey guys... stumbled across this thread and it's great! I've always been a casual Orzhov/bleed player and this deck totally screams to me. A couple of thoughts I thought I'd throw out as I'd like to build something along these lines without breaking the bank...
Divinity Of Pride just seems to beg to be in this deck. I mean you're gaining life and stalling... I would think a Pollen Lullaby resolved and Clashed would make them scoop if he's on the board.
A card I absolutely love and would be better or as good as Underworld Dreams... Polluted Bonds...
Sorry if my ideas are a bit off... but I wold have screamed for Sleeper Agent in this deck, and well... great minds think alike!
I like this deck because the main Tier 1 decks right now are creature based, and the fogs take care of them fairly handely. The tutors give you option of a toolbox sideboard (I'll get to that ) and the lifegain keeps you alive against all the Burn decks running around and makes sure your Spiteful Visions doesn't kill you. I wanted to try and fit Syphon Life in the deck to use all the excess land you end up drawing, but Profane Command just seems so much better as a finisher, removal and a way to get back your lifegaining creatures. Yay versatility!
I can't wait to play this deck so I can back up my thoughts, but I think this is close to the optimal list. Here are my initial ideas for SB stuff:
I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting at the moment, but It's getting late. Also, I like the Sleeper Agent idea, but like the Syphon Life just couldn't find room. Thoughts?
I would think the Runed Halo option is better than Martyr, esp since we only have a little over a month with her around. Preventing the mass life loss and still gaining the card draw is just as important as gaining a bunch of life to supplement the loss. It also protects against other threats and is really quite flexible in this environment.
Here is my take based on a combination of a couple of your builds. I really love the toolbox idea, and it will allow for some nice sideboard tricks, like Polluted Bonds versus decks that really need to be careful with their manabases.
I've been dabbling with a WRb version instead of the traditional build the thread has been discussing, splashing red in for Manabarbs and Sudden Impact.
@Zanam- You changed the mana base for 4 cards, specfically 2 copies of each. How often do you think you will be able to find a copy of either?? It's not worth changing the manabase and cutting 4 cards to fit those two mentioned into the deck in my opinion.
Answers
1.A. It depends on whether your playing heavy white or not...if you run Wrath of God/Idyllic Tutor/ Oblivion Ring....i would run Martyr of Sands.
1.B. The reason for Sleeper Agent is to win "faster" with Underworld Dreams and Syphon Life...so MoS doesnt matter.
2. Well Runed Halo works really nice against your SVs thats why its in the main deck...other than that Oblivion Ring. But really the main point for SV is for your opponent to die faster....Once you play SV with howling mine in play your opponent takes the damage first so your already ahead in the game, PLUS Batwing Brume helps ALOT!
3. Turbo #s..... 4 Howling Mine, 3-4 Spiteful Visions, ?? Underworld dreams (sometimes you dont even need it...other wise if your running the tutor build 1 or 2 ofs...See Below for some explanation on UD)
4. If your running more Black than white i would play atleast 3-4 UD. More damage in the black version is pretty much key to winning. You basically want to play Sleeper Agent, Syphon Life, and Underworld Dreams in addition to the Turbo set up with the fog effects.
You miss understood his answer he said that sleeper agent will have to be the card because Martyr is going to rotate because shes in coldsnap.
Purity has been tested before by someone on this thread...i havent tested myself but it might be a good 1-2 of. Divinty of Pride i like for some reason....
Answers
1.A. It depends on whether your playing heavy white or not...if you run Wrath of God/Idyllic Tutor/ Oblivion Ring....i would run Martyr of Sands.
1.B. The reason for Sleeper Agent is to win "faster" with Underworld Dreams and Syphon Life...so MoS doesnt matter.
2. Well Runed Halo works really nice against your SVs thats why its in the main deck...other than that Oblivion Ring. But really the main point for SV is for your opponent to die faster....Once you play SV with howling mine in play your opponent takes the damage first so your already ahead in the game, PLUS Batwing Brume helps ALOT!
3. Turbo #s..... 4 Howling Mine, 3-4 Spiteful Visions, ?? Underworld dreams (sometimes you dont even need it...other wise if your running the tutor build 1 or 2 ofs...See Below for some explanation on UD)
4. If your running more Black than white i would play atleast 3-4 UD. More damage in the black version is pretty much key to winning. You basically want to play Sleeper Agent, Syphon Life, and Underworld Dreams in addition to the Turbo set up with the fog effects.
You miss understood his answer he said that sleeper agent will have to be the card because Martyr is going to rotate because shes in coldsnap.
Purity has been tested before by someone on this thread...i havent tested myself but it might be a good 1-2 of. Divinty of Pride i like for some reason....
the only issue i've had with the deck is that i can't find anybody who has not yet used their copies of Sleeper Agent as coasters or butt wipes. i don't really buy stuff online too.
but in my proxied experience, the deck runs smooth without Underworld Dreams, although i do understand the sense in putting it in especially if the deck is concentrated on black over white. my most solid contribution in this thread has still been Syphon Life, and in my playtesting it usually is enough to get the W.
@DarkHiroki
where do you usually hang out? are you in Manila?
I tried a slight changes of turbosmog in a recent FMN....
2 win , 2 lose ... kinda balanced.
2 standard win is against GU elf warrior and mono black rogue.
.. once my tefari's moat is out, they scope ;P
2 lose is to a control deck. 1st is a 5 colour control .. lost to oona's mill and second to mono black.
mono black is a close game.. round one , i win . round 2, i mana lock at 2 land and no fog (all my toolbox come out.. lol) and got aggroed. round 3 i scope to a mind shatter.
I'm playing more of a MoS white style. next round, i'm going to try agent-style (since i got underworld dream now).
P/S:
4 spiteful is really painful ...
I'm going to try with 4 mine, 4 underworld, 2 spiteful and 2 agent.
planning to use mine as turbo.
dmg comes from combo btw underworld + spiteful and/or underworld + agent.
consistent 3 dmg a turn type ;P
I've found that I win almost all the games that go long. As a result, I've switched extra slots to cards that guarantee long games.
Most matchs vs control are guaranteed long due to control being naturally slow, and game control pivots along a few key sideboard cards, such as Krosan Grip, and Primal Command. The first one usually doesn't do anything, but repeated castings cause a substantial loss in board control. This has resulted in a switch from a discard based sideboard vs control to just Extirpate.
Game 1 against most control decks are usually landslides due to lack of artifact/enchantment removal, or total losses due to permission.
Siding in Extirpate allows us to basically reset the opponents deck to Game 1 status, or in the case of permission, putting them in a position to not have permission available to stop win conditions.
As for the extra 8 sideboard slots I now have, I have no clue.
I'm tempted to switch a Wrath of God to Hallowed Burial due to its effectiveness vs persist and graveyard shenanigans.
My friend who likes to play this deck also likes to play his decks with one less land, hence the low land count.
the only issue i've had with the deck is that i can't find anybody who has not yet used their copies of Sleeper Agent as coasters or butt wipes. i don't really buy stuff online too.
but in my proxied experience, the deck runs smooth without Underworld Dreams, although i do understand the sense in putting it in especially if the deck is concentrated on black over white. my most solid contribution in this thread has still been Syphon Life, and in my playtesting it usually is enough to get the W.
@DarkHiroki
where do you usually hang out? are you in Manila?
uumm.. im from laguna and we usually play fnm at ATC and Pav.
are you from manila?
anyway, iv been loving the idea of this deck for me to even come up with a future decklist of mine.
Heres the build I came up with:
[CARD]
4x Spiteful Visions
3x Idyllic Tutor
4x Holy Day
2x Darkness
4x Batwing Brume
4x Dawn Charm
2x Pollen Lullaby
2x Wrath of God
3x Syphon Life
4x Fetid Heath
4x Caves of Koilos
8x Plains
6x Swamp
[/CARD]
I'm going to play test this some, see what I can do with it. I already don't like it against my cousin's aggro-fish, which wins weekly in FNM, but I'm writing that off as player error at the moment to see if I can fix it.
This is just an idea....since your running the "tutor" build why dont you include a singleton story circle/tool box of enchantments.....
OR
I think you could also benefit from Martyr of Sandsbeing in your deck since you mentioned your having trouble with your borthers aggro and almost your whole deck is white.
Probably.....
-2 Darkness
-2 Pollen Lullaby (you have enough fog effects)
+4 Martyr of Sands (= psuedo fogs)
H/W List http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=112656
Any thoughts?
Also, I would run the toolbox effect with the enchantments. Move Wrath to the sideboard and bring it out if needed, but with enough fogs, you may not need it main decked. Run Story Circle, Runed Halo, Oblivion Ring, etc.
I moved from online to the table with this deck and actually have it built...
Here is the list I'm running with decent success...it's hilarious for casual and has a decent win-rate against the real decks that I've tested against.
4 Martyr of Sands
2 Divinity of Pride
Turbo:
4 Howling Mine
3 Spiteful Visions
Fog:
4 Batwing Brume
4 Dawn Charm
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Runed Halo
Removal:
4 Hallowed Burial
4 Unmake
Land:
4 Fetid Heath
4 Caves of Koilos
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmgoth
4 Swamp
10 Plains
4 Disenchant
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Thoughtseize
4 Extirpate
R/r/B -Elelemental Midrange
B/U- Card advantage
Divinity Of Pride just seems to beg to be in this deck. I mean you're gaining life and stalling... I would think a Pollen Lullaby resolved and Clashed would make them scoop if he's on the board.
A card I absolutely love and would be better or as good as Underworld Dreams... Polluted Bonds...
Sorry if my ideas are a bit off... but I wold have screamed for Sleeper Agent in this deck, and well... great minds think alike!
FoGs (11)
4 Batwing Brume
4 Dawn Charm
3 Holy Day
The Turbo (7)
4 Howling Mine
3 Spiteful Visions
Creatures (7)
4 Martyr of Sands
3 Kitchen Finks
Board Sweepers (3)
3 Wrath of God
Tutors (3)
3 Idyllic Tutor
Toolbox (5)
1 Story Circle
1 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Profane Command
Land (24)
4 Fetid Heath
4 Caves of Koilos
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Plains
6 Swamp
I like this deck because the main Tier 1 decks right now are creature based, and the fogs take care of them fairly handely. The tutors give you option of a toolbox sideboard (I'll get to that ) and the lifegain keeps you alive against all the Burn decks running around and makes sure your Spiteful Visions doesn't kill you. I wanted to try and fit Syphon Life in the deck to use all the excess land you end up drawing, but Profane Command just seems so much better as a finisher, removal and a way to get back your lifegaining creatures. Yay versatility!
I can't wait to play this deck so I can back up my thoughts, but I think this is close to the optimal list. Here are my initial ideas for SB stuff:
Wheel of Sun and Moon: tutorable, against merfolk mill or combo mill
CoP Red/Black: Tutorable, Obvious
Extripate/ Faerie Macabre Graveyard/combo hate is good
Wispmare/ Disenchant artifact/enchantmet removal, what sideboards are for
I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting at the moment, but It's getting late. Also, I like the Sleeper Agent idea, but like the Syphon Life just couldn't find room. Thoughts?
Playtesting...
...Hallowed Burial is Teh Nutz...
anyways, based from what i see from the lists.. which lady is better?
martyr of sands or sleeper agent?
and when i mean better, which can be more game winning?
anyway, rotation will be soon and we will lose granny martyr of sands.. will sexy lady sleeper agent take that spot?
also, about the howling mines, spiteful vision and underworld dreams what is the correct numbering of those? all 4-ofs? or 3-ofs? or what?
im really hoping for some clarifications and in-depth explanations because i would really want to build a deck like this..:)
ChibiSwan! YOU ROCK!
...........Shin on the textless Cryptic Command
4 Sleeper Agent
2 Divinity of Pride
Turbo:
4 Howling Mine
3 Spiteful Visions
Fog:
4 Batwing Brume
4 Dawn Charm
4 Pollen Lullaby
3 Idyllic Tutor
Toolbox (5)
1 Story Circle
2 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Underworld Dreams
Removal:
4 Unmake
4 Fetid Heath
4 Caves of Koilos
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmgoth
4 Swamp
10 Plains
Here is my take based on a combination of a couple of your builds. I really love the toolbox idea, and it will allow for some nice sideboard tricks, like Polluted Bonds versus decks that really need to be careful with their manabases.
Fogs
4 Batwing Brume
4 Dawn Charm
4 Holy Day
Kill
4 Howling Mine
4 Spiteful Visions
2 Sudden Impact
2 Manabarbs
3 Runed Halo
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wrath of God
Lands
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Fetid Heath
4 Battlefield Forge
3 Rugged Prarie
6 Plains
3 Mountain
4 Luminesce
3 Idyllic Tutor
1 Story Circle
1 Rule of Law
1 Megrim
1 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Purity
I think this is the route I will end up going, if I can gather the manabase for it. The lands are pretty expensive.
1. which is better for the deck? martyr of sands or sleeper agent?
2. how do you negate the lifeloss from the spiteful visions? is [/card]runed halo[/card] an answer?
3. what is the correct numbering of the Turbos? howling mines, spiteful visions, and for some builds underworld dreams? 3-ofs? or 4-ofs? or what?
4. is underworld dreams that necessary??
i would like some clarifications cause i would really want to build this deck.;)
ChibiSwan! YOU ROCK!
...........Shin on the textless Cryptic Command
2. Runed halo
2. Purity
I'll leave the rest op to the others...
R/r/B -Elelemental Midrange
B/U- Card advantage
uumm... sleeper agent is in Xth ed. so she wont rotate out with coldsnap..
anyway, Purity? ...could be... but i think divinity of pride would be better?
ChibiSwan! YOU ROCK!
...........Shin on the textless Cryptic Command
Answers
1.A. It depends on whether your playing heavy white or not...if you run Wrath of God/Idyllic Tutor/ Oblivion Ring....i would run Martyr of Sands.
1.B. The reason for Sleeper Agent is to win "faster" with Underworld Dreams and Syphon Life...so MoS doesnt matter.
2. Well Runed Halo works really nice against your SVs thats why its in the main deck...other than that Oblivion Ring. But really the main point for SV is for your opponent to die faster....Once you play SV with howling mine in play your opponent takes the damage first so your already ahead in the game, PLUS Batwing Brume helps ALOT!
3. Turbo #s..... 4 Howling Mine, 3-4 Spiteful Visions, ?? Underworld dreams (sometimes you dont even need it...other wise if your running the tutor build 1 or 2 ofs...See Below for some explanation on UD)
4. If your running more Black than white i would play atleast 3-4 UD. More damage in the black version is pretty much key to winning. You basically want to play Sleeper Agent, Syphon Life, and Underworld Dreams in addition to the Turbo set up with the fog effects.
You miss understood his answer he said that sleeper agent will have to be the card because Martyr is going to rotate because shes in coldsnap.
Purity has been tested before by someone on this thread...i havent tested myself but it might be a good 1-2 of. Divinty of Pride i like for some reason....
H/W List http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=112656
thanks! i really needed those brief insights.
im goin to post my list soon..
anyone tested this recently at FNM?
ChibiSwan! YOU ROCK!
...........Shin on the textless Cryptic Command
but in my proxied experience, the deck runs smooth without Underworld Dreams, although i do understand the sense in putting it in especially if the deck is concentrated on black over white. my most solid contribution in this thread has still been Syphon Life, and in my playtesting it usually is enough to get the W.
@DarkHiroki
where do you usually hang out? are you in Manila?
2 win , 2 lose ... kinda balanced.
2 standard win is against GU elf warrior and mono black rogue.
.. once my tefari's moat is out, they scope ;P
2 lose is to a control deck. 1st is a 5 colour control .. lost to oona's mill and second to mono black.
mono black is a close game.. round one , i win . round 2, i mana lock at 2 land and no fog (all my toolbox come out.. lol) and got aggroed. round 3 i scope to a mind shatter.
I'm playing more of a MoS white style. next round, i'm going to try agent-style (since i got underworld dream now).
P/S:
4 spiteful is really painful ...
I'm going to try with 4 mine, 4 underworld, 2 spiteful and 2 agent.
planning to use mine as turbo.
dmg comes from combo btw underworld + spiteful and/or underworld + agent.
consistent 3 dmg a turn type ;P
4x Martyr of Sands
4x Howling Mine
4x Spiteful Visions
4x Holy Day
4x Batwing Brume
4x Dawn Charm
4x Pollen Lullaby
4x Wrath of God
3x Divinity of Pride
1x Hallowed Burial
1x Beacon of Immortality
1x Purity
Land
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Fetid Heath
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Flagstones of Trokair
11x Plains
3x Return to Dust
4x Extirpate
8x ?
I've found that I win almost all the games that go long. As a result, I've switched extra slots to cards that guarantee long games.
Most matchs vs control are guaranteed long due to control being naturally slow, and game control pivots along a few key sideboard cards, such as Krosan Grip, and Primal Command. The first one usually doesn't do anything, but repeated castings cause a substantial loss in board control. This has resulted in a switch from a discard based sideboard vs control to just Extirpate.
Game 1 against most control decks are usually landslides due to lack of artifact/enchantment removal, or total losses due to permission.
Siding in Extirpate allows us to basically reset the opponents deck to Game 1 status, or in the case of permission, putting them in a position to not have permission available to stop win conditions.
As for the extra 8 sideboard slots I now have, I have no clue.
I'm tempted to switch a Wrath of God to Hallowed Burial due to its effectiveness vs persist and graveyard shenanigans.
My friend who likes to play this deck also likes to play his decks with one less land, hence the low land count.
uumm.. im from laguna and we usually play fnm at ATC and Pav.
are you from manila?
anyway, iv been loving the idea of this deck for me to even come up with a future decklist of mine.
4 Fetid Heath
2 Caves of Koilos
1 Urza's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mouth of Ronom
9 Snow-covered Plains
5 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Sleeper Agent
1 Purity
FOG
4 Batwing Brume
4 Dawncharm
4 Holy Day
ENCHANTMENT
4 Runed Halo
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Howling Mines
4 Spiteful Visions
1 Underworld Dreams
REACH
1 Austere Command
1 Feudkiller's Verdict
im very much into the whole deck that i even want to trade my demigod of revenge for the pieces!:D
ChibiSwan! YOU ROCK!
...........Shin on the textless Cryptic Command
why no Wrath of God and Syphon Life?