The advantages that these cards hold over G/W Turbofog lie in the fact that they both cause the opponent to lose life...rather quickly if you have the engine going with Spiteful Visions in play. I don't like waiting to deck people in TurboFog...but when both the Turbo and the Fog cause Lifeloss...things start to get interesting for me.
Here's a list I threw together...would appreciate some comments. I'm planning on doing some testing once I settle on a list. I'm also waiting to do the mana-base until I get a more solid list of cards (I would love suggestions on that, too :)).
I'm a turbofog player and have to say that this version looks pretty good. I like taking out green altogether and still getting the card draw.
The deck does need more of a win con though. Either by attacking -- Hoofprints being the best, or by recuring your grave-Feldon's cane.
I would also try to fit more gain life in here. SB extrapate is really needed since alot of decks are running the green command.
Would put wrath in here instead of Scour. If your going to blow it all up then do that but you won't always have the cards in hand... I know it draws alot but some games you don't get the draw until later.
Good luck
After some simple calculations, I agree that more lifegain is likely necessary.
I'm not as worried about a win condition. The Spiteful Visions are a win-con if the opponent is not gaining life. I'm quite worried about killing myself with them tbh, hence the need for more lifegain.
I might replace 4 of the fogs with Children of Korlis, who I can sac on my turn to gain back the life I lost from drawing cards on my turn in a pinch, but functions as a more fragile fog most of the time...
Anyone have any experience with Feudkiller's Verdict? I also thought about it as a 1 or 2 of...
I am definitely dropping the Spellbook on my next update as well.
I hate Turbofog, cause its such a slow, drawn out crapshoot of a deck, but yours seemed funny. So I threw together a decklist in MWS in and have been testing it out. I'm undefeated in 7 matches... LOL! Batwing Brume is by far the MVP once you have some Spiteful Visions out. I had three Spiteful Visions out one game. My opponent had gained life through Finks, etc. and was at 31. I was at 44 from Martyrs. A Howling Mine also graced my side of the table, and we were losing 12 life a turn, plus I had 3 Brumes in my hand. My opponent attacked with 2 Finks, a Lawnmower, 3 Worm Tokens from a Creakwood Liege and the Liege itself. I triple Brume'd him! HAHA! He lost 21 life. Then I took a Draw-Go turn and let him die to the Visions.
Thanks for posting your list Phyremind...with several solid ideas I hadn't considered. However...mine is likely going to remain a "budget deck"...so no Damnation for me. In testing, Sunscour was good enough.
I'm moving forward with this deck...I'll try to keep posting changes as I continue making them...
personally, i'm fine with just 10 Fog effects. i needed the 4th instant speed removal card to better combat Faeries/Lark, as its already pretty much good against aggro.
personally, i'm fine with just 10 Fog effects. i needed the 4th instant speed removal card to better combat Faeries/Lark, as its already pretty much good against aggro.
MCR = My Chemical Romance, its a band. PhyreMind named his deck after one of their songs
I like the inclusion of Finks in this deck, its sort of pseudo fog because it stops attacks and gains life.
Twilight Mire is the G/B Land, I guess you meant Fetid Heath.
yeah that's what i meant, sorry
EDIT: fixed
and thanks to the MCR explanation. yeah, Finks really should be in the deck. and i also play Wrath of God over Damnation, mainly due to Martyr of Sands.
I tested with Finks and as of now I'm leaning toward Unmake in that slot.
The sideboard would need to be reworked if you are expecting to run into heavy burn. I would think Luminesce, Burrenton Forge-Tender, and Seht's Tiger would be potential answers. However, there may be other things I'm missing so help with this matchup would be appreciated...
I tested with Finks and as of now I'm leaning toward Unmake in that slot.
The sideboard would need to be reworked if you are expecting to run into heavy burn. I would think Luminesce, Burrenton Forge-Tender, and Seht's Tiger would be potential answers. However, there may be other things I'm missing so help with this matchup would be appreciated...
You dont like Rule of Law? -> Players can only play 1 spell per turn.
In Turbofog maybe, but in this deck...I've utterly destroyed people with multiple Batwing Brumes played in one turn. It's really almost a better wincon than Spiteful Visions, LOL!
And yes, I named this deck after the MCR song! I recently posted two other decklists entitled Girl's Not Grey [Orzhov Deck] (song by AFI) and The Bird and the Worm [Worm Harvest deck, get it? Worms :D] (song by the Used).
You're playing B/W Turbofog, but not using Darkness OR Sudden Spoiling? Am I missing something?
Those two spells would be fine in this deck. However, Martyr of Sands is quite important and more white spells=more life from her. Against RDW, you have to hold on to your Dawn Charms and use them to counter burn spells instead of using them as fog. Board in Luminesce, Story Circle, or Burrenton Forge-Tender for additional support depending on what type of RDW you are expecting to face. I think that Story Circle may be the best solution and it might even be worth a couple of slots in the main deck as it can be used to prevent damage from Spiteful Visions if you have mana sitting around that you're not using.
I found in the version I ran that Sudden Spoiling has been a great fog effect, that doubles as anti-reveillark tech. I also ran 3 Chronomantic Escape which have been an incredibly useful anti combat measure that keeps coming back.
I'm not sure where the fascination with trying to do a little bit of everything comes from. Turbofog is Turbofog, not Doran Rock. Turbofog has never needed board sweepers or RFG to succeed, nor do many builds need Martyr of Sands.
With that said, Turbofog runs off of redundancy, card advantage, and a stable mana base. Your deck lacks redundancy in fog effects, and replaces that with targeted RFG and board sweeping? I don't understand what you'd have to gain from destroying creatures that can't get through a wall of fog to begin with. I'm not aware of any one specific permanent you'd like to avoid, as a Turbofog player, enough to run Oblivion Ring.
RDW is no longer a problem for this deck, nor is Dragonstorm. Many current t2 combo decks can be hated by a solid WGb turbofog build, and it isn't really necessary to add MORE aggro hate than needed in the maindeck.
The Martyr just strikes me as a pretty bad card, at the end of the day, at least for Turbofog. Yes, it provides you nice early gap in life, but you don't really need that when you have a hand full of fog. Again, that's a sacrifice you've made by adding often irrelevant board sweeping, instead of more redundancy in your fog effects.
A pre-LOR build that simply dominated my local meta would've really liked Everlasting Torment. It would've convinced me to go with a more dedicated black card pool, in place of the WGb version I had at the time. I've reconstructed a decklist that should be just about the exact same as I was running at the time, give or take two cards out of place.
Anyway, that version played obscenely well against any aggro, including the GU tempo builds that were just cropping up at the time. Burn had absolutely no game against Story Circle and Circle of Affliction coming in, next to Extirpate hating away their more vital spells. I can't really remember a deck that gave me much trouble, to be entirely honest, though I could see Pickles doing so if I didn't jump on top of things early enough.
Anyway, the entire point here is that you don't have the redundant fog effects due to your stretch for versaility, and removal. Your life loss win conditions are pretty fragile, and having a mere 8 howling mine effects in today's standard (with Faeries sure to counter every one they're able to) just doesn't seem like enough. Lark also likes do discard stuff, and bouncing all of your mine effects, then ***'ing away your brumes seems painful.
For the record, I also suggest Ronom Unicorn over Disenchant if you're only really concerned with enchantments, as any deck sideboarding Negate will immediately pull them over into the main board for game 2. Unfortunately, I'm assuming you want Disenchant to take out any Warhammers or whatnot, aswell.
Thanks for your input The Chosen 1. The deck you are talking about is not the same deck. The point of this deck (as stated in the original post) is to TRY and create a Turbofog variant based around Batwing Brume and Spiteful Visions...
What about Colfenor's Plans? If you play this with Visions already in play you stop suffering damage from them because Plans forces you to skip your draw. Seven extra cards provides you great card-advantage in mid- and late- game. You also don't have to worry about playing only one spell, because single fog-like spell in opp turn is enough.
Yeah, seven extra cards is nice, but once you run out of cards in hand/removed by Plans, you don't have anything else. It's too risky IMO.
My current build (September 28, 2008):
4 Howling Mine
3 Spiteful Visions
Smog:
4 Batwing Brume
4 Holy Day
4 Pollen Lullaby
T3ch:
4 Runed Halo
2 Story Circle
Removal:
3 Hallowed Burial
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Purity
3 Profane Command
Land:
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Fetid Heath
2 Forbidding Watchtower
8 Plains
5 Swamp
3 Aura of Silence
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Crib Swap
3 Paladin en-Vec
3 Thoughtseize
Original Post:
Well...Batwing Brume got me thinking about post-Eventide B/W Turbofog in standard with Spiteful Visions taking the place of Rites of Flourishing.
The advantages that these cards hold over G/W Turbofog lie in the fact that they both cause the opponent to lose life...rather quickly if you have the engine going with Spiteful Visions in play. I don't like waiting to deck people in TurboFog...but when both the Turbo and the Fog cause Lifeloss...things start to get interesting for me.
Here's a list I threw together...would appreciate some comments. I'm planning on doing some testing once I settle on a list. I'm also waiting to do the mana-base until I get a more solid list of cards (I would love suggestions on that, too :)).
4 Howling Mine
4 Spiteful Visions
The Fog:
4 Batwing Brume
4 Holy Day
4 Dawn Charm
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Martyr of Sands
Removal:
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Sunscour
Singletons:
1 Spellbook
1 Purity
I know ***/Damnation would make sense...but I don't have the playsets or the desire to spend money on them since this deck is mostly for casual/FNM...
If you're interested, here's other cards I at least thought about...
Chronomantic Escape, Sudden Spoiling, Intervention Pact, Story Circle, Beacon of Immortality, Feudkiller's Verdict, Porphyry Nodes, Hoofprints of the Stag, Divinity of Pride, Rebuff the Wicked, Feldon's Cane, Children of Korlis, Luminesce, Seht's Tiger, Darkness, Angel's Grace, Runed Halo
...some of these would likely form the sideboard...
I am relatively new to Magic and would appreciate whatever advice y'all might have...
The deck does need more of a win con though. Either by attacking -- Hoofprints being the best, or by recuring your grave-Feldon's cane.
I would also try to fit more gain life in here. SB extrapate is really needed since alot of decks are running the green command.
Would put wrath in here instead of Scour. If your going to blow it all up then do that but you won't always have the cards in hand... I know it draws alot but some games you don't get the draw until later.
Good luck
I'm not as worried about a win condition. The Spiteful Visions are a win-con if the opponent is not gaining life. I'm quite worried about killing myself with them tbh, hence the need for more lifegain.
I might replace 4 of the fogs with Children of Korlis, who I can sac on my turn to gain back the life I lost from drawing cards on my turn in a pinch, but functions as a more fragile fog most of the time...
Anyone have any experience with Feudkiller's Verdict? I also thought about it as a 1 or 2 of...
I am definitely dropping the Spellbook on my next update as well.
One more question...Oblivion Ring MD or SB?
Here's my list:
04 Martyr of the Sands
Spells
04 Condemn
04 Dawn Charm
04 Pollen Lullaby
04 Batwing Brume
03 Damnation
02 Unmake
Other Permanents
04 Howling Mine
04 Prison Term
04 Spiteful Visions
10 Plains
06 Swamp
04 Fetid Heath
01 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
01 Urza's Factory
01 Leechridden Swamp
04 Disenchant
04 Faerie Macabre
04 Thoughtseize
03 Oblivion Ring
Also funny, is syphoning your opponent's life using Leechridden Swamp, which if you notice can only be activated with two Spiteful Visions out. LOL!
If only Sphere of Law was in Standard, then my Visions wouldn't hurt me, and those RDW decks would cry.
Playing this deck feels like burning ants with a magnifying glass.
I'm moving forward with this deck...I'll try to keep posting changes as I continue making them...
4 Howling Mine
4 Spiteful Visions
Smog
4 Holy Day
4 Dawn Charm
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Batwing Brume
4 Martyr of Sands
2 Feudkiller's Verdict
Mass Removal
4 Sunscour
4 Unmake
Land
13 Plains
5 Swamp
4 Fetid Heath
4 Disenchant
4 Intervention Pact
4 Luminesce
3 Oblivion Ring
I've also been doing some testing...Spiteful Visions and Batwing Brume definitely constitute a Win Condition.
Brume is the reason I made this deck and it has been everything I thought it would...
Children of Korlis was unimpressive in testing against RDW variants, which is where I thought he would be valuable.
Spam Warning
-Lotus
what is MCR?
played a list online too... it was pretty cool:
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
4 Howling Mine
4 Spiteful Visions
4 Unmake
4 Batwing Brume
4 Dawn Charm
3 Wrath of God
2 Holy Day
4 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Fetid Heath
1 Urza's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
personally, i'm fine with just 10 Fog effects. i needed the 4th instant speed removal card to better combat Faeries/Lark, as its already pretty much good against aggro.
MCR = My Chemical Romance, its a band. PhyreMind named his deck after one of their songs
I like the inclusion of Finks in this deck, its sort of pseudo fog because it stops attacks and gains life.
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yeah that's what i meant, sorry
EDIT: fixed
and thanks to the MCR explanation. yeah, Finks really should be in the deck. and i also play Wrath of God over Damnation, mainly due to Martyr of Sands.
Could sideboard Burrenton Forge Tenders and some of the more general "Prevent All Damage" type fogs.
From ep. Who kicks ass
The sideboard would need to be reworked if you are expecting to run into heavy burn. I would think Luminesce, Burrenton Forge-Tender, and Seht's Tiger would be potential answers. However, there may be other things I'm missing so help with this matchup would be appreciated...
i run 4x Kitchen Finks and 4x Unmake. i think Spirit of the Hearth can work against burn. that and good old Aven Riftwatcher.
In Turbofog maybe, but in this deck...I've utterly destroyed people with multiple Batwing Brumes played in one turn. It's really almost a better wincon than Spiteful Visions, LOL!
And yes, I named this deck after the MCR song! I recently posted two other decklists entitled Girl's Not Grey [Orzhov Deck] (song by AFI) and The Bird and the Worm [Worm Harvest deck, get it? Worms :D] (song by the Used).
4 Martyr of Sands
2 Divinity of Pride
Turbo
4 Howling Mine
4 Spiteful Visions
Smog
4 Holy Day
4 Dawn Charm
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Batwing Brume
2 Story Circle
2 Chronomantic Escape
4 Sunscour
Land
14 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Fetid Heath
4 Disenchant
4 Luminesce
2 Story Circle
4 Sudden Spoiling
1 Chronomantic Escape
With that said, Turbofog runs off of redundancy, card advantage, and a stable mana base. Your deck lacks redundancy in fog effects, and replaces that with targeted RFG and board sweeping? I don't understand what you'd have to gain from destroying creatures that can't get through a wall of fog to begin with. I'm not aware of any one specific permanent you'd like to avoid, as a Turbofog player, enough to run Oblivion Ring.
RDW is no longer a problem for this deck, nor is Dragonstorm. Many current t2 combo decks can be hated by a solid WGb turbofog build, and it isn't really necessary to add MORE aggro hate than needed in the maindeck.
The Martyr just strikes me as a pretty bad card, at the end of the day, at least for Turbofog. Yes, it provides you nice early gap in life, but you don't really need that when you have a hand full of fog. Again, that's a sacrifice you've made by adding often irrelevant board sweeping, instead of more redundancy in your fog effects.
A pre-LOR build that simply dominated my local meta would've really liked Everlasting Torment. It would've convinced me to go with a more dedicated black card pool, in place of the WGb version I had at the time. I've reconstructed a decklist that should be just about the exact same as I was running at the time, give or take two cards out of place.
4 Rites of Flourishing
4 Howling Mine
3 Millstone
3 Jester's Scepter
4 Sculpting Steel
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Holy Day
4 Dawn Charm
4 Darkness
4 Extirpate
3 Vivid Meadow
4 Vivid Grove
3 Vivid Marsh
5 Plains
6 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Chameleon Blur (Dragonstorm was still in play)
3 Luminesce (See above)
3 Sudden Spoiling
3 Circle of Affliction
3 Story Circle
Anyway, that version played obscenely well against any aggro, including the GU tempo builds that were just cropping up at the time. Burn had absolutely no game against Story Circle and Circle of Affliction coming in, next to Extirpate hating away their more vital spells. I can't really remember a deck that gave me much trouble, to be entirely honest, though I could see Pickles doing so if I didn't jump on top of things early enough.
Anyway, the entire point here is that you don't have the redundant fog effects due to your stretch for versaility, and removal. Your life loss win conditions are pretty fragile, and having a mere 8 howling mine effects in today's standard (with Faeries sure to counter every one they're able to) just doesn't seem like enough. Lark also likes do discard stuff, and bouncing all of your mine effects, then ***'ing away your brumes seems painful.
For the record, I also suggest Ronom Unicorn over Disenchant if you're only really concerned with enchantments, as any deck sideboarding Negate will immediately pull them over into the main board for game 2. Unfortunately, I'm assuming you want Disenchant to take out any Warhammers or whatnot, aswell.
Thanks for your input The Chosen 1. The deck you are talking about is not the same deck. The point of this deck (as stated in the original post) is to TRY and create a Turbofog variant based around Batwing Brume and Spiteful Visions...
I like the look of this deck.
Sig and Avvy by me.
You lost.
Yeah, seven extra cards is nice, but once you run out of cards in hand/removed by Plans, you don't have anything else. It's too risky IMO.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)