And as per our discussion . . . you're making a poor card selection choice based on a low % event (land flood, and alive w/7+factory needing tokens).
For those who have tried/use the red splash... how has Magus of the Moon affected you when it resolves... ? Honesty and objectivity pls, it's ok to have a lost a game of MtG
This is conjecture, but I think it would be pretty bad for Lark for a Magus of the Moon to resolve against us. I think it's crushing for the Faeries player though as they lose access to all creature removal.
PVDD's list of Faeries - which is the most likely to be barned by most players as it Top 8'd PT Hollywood - is only running 4 basic Islands. Lark loses a lot but has artifact color-fixing mana.
w/o 2+ MEs, 4x mutavault is not as good. but if you have more MEs in your build, then you want more manlands. that's essentially why faerie conclave makes the cut as a 2x.
bonded fetch has been tested and re-tested by a bunch of folks. i think the consensus was that no flying+defender make it not worth it.
mawcor, shmawcor. we've been over that one too. i like the current idea against bitterblossom: just ignore it almost entirely (b/c the cards you play to deal w/ it (wispmare, disenchant) don't do anything else useful) and put everything into getting down crovax, which is the card that decides the faerie match. teferi and pact of negation help you do that, and teferi on his own can help you win by shutting down counters on your turn.
i haven't heard any convincing arguments against urza's factory, though, other than it's not on color. i know mikey plays it... has anyone else tested it?
Honestly, I've found Crovax to quite simply cost a little too much. 6 mana is a LOT... I think that's why people are looking for alternate solutions... Have you really found that much success with Crovax? I agree with everything else you say, though.
I agree with Mikey, with Mind Stone and CS Heart Crovax is never hard to cast by turn 5, and 100% of the time if it resolves they either scoop on the spot or if they dont thats because their holding a Terror. But still even if it gets Terrored, you destroyed most if not all their board(unless they have 2 Scion), and got them to burn a Terror. Thats a good trade in my book.
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The Elesh Norn slot could have been a Baneslayer or Iona, so similar to how I chose which college to attend, I simply rolled a d6 and called it a day.
@UM: wait... did you just say ask if i have really had that much success with crovax?
against faeries, it's basically been my only route to success (teferi can help sometimes, but he's not really enough on his own if they have their team up). he is heavy at 6 mana, but he is utterly back-breaking, dropping the entire faerie team save mistbind clique (putting aside double scion, but if it comes to that you're pretty screwed anyway). and he pumps lark, ME, and riftwatcher... gotta love that. oh, and btw, don't forget to read that last ability of his... it comes in handy sometimes.
6cc isn't too much for this deck, tho: reveillark itself is 5cc and 6 on evoke... the accel in this deck is built to lay down reveillark and friends asap to clinch the game in most MUs. in the faerie MU, the goal posts are simply moved back a turn. and you have to survive the beats ...and you have to build your hand despite being thoughtseized ...and you have to cope with counters... yeah, it's pretty miserable. but, if you play your own counters judiciously and build your hand/keep CA, you can pull out the win sometimes by forcing down crovax.
that's my experience, anyway. i wouldn't take that as gospel or anything--i just test and play locally when i can. but, a look at the hollywood SBs and a search of the archived thread would show you that i'm far from alone in this opinion. even in this thread: look at BL's SB or check Shin's list in his sig; or the first list posted (mihara's) or just about anybody's list posted here.
I just finished reading the whole post and i've noticed 1 thing about all the lists, not one includes Nimbus Maze. Also, I have tested the U/W combo aspect of the deck and when I needed a land, I drew a Faerie Conclave totally stoped me many times. Black Lotus, I love manlands as much as the next guy but: 1) Magus hurts, 2) the cipt problem noted above, 3) I usually never do anything with the conclave exept tap it for mana because I usually tap out each turn, to me it's an island that comes into play tapped.
I play with 1 Urza's Factory when/if mana screwage is an issue, 2/2's are wonderful, espicially with a Mirror Entity, the token is just another 7/7.
Back to the Nimbus Maze, they work well when man lands and vivid lands are cut back. I only play with 4 Mazes, 6 plains, 11 islands, 1 factory, and 2 wastes (mainly because I can only get a hold of 2). This makes the Magus serve almost no problem. (The UWr version still will have problems. Also, this manabase is still in testing, the wastes and the mazes are set but the island: plains ratio is still getting twiked.)
I think Fledgling Mawcor is being overlooked as a SB option, t3 it will start counteracting bitterblossom, be a 2/2 on wings, hit all of the faeries 1/1 dorks (Spellstutter Sprite, Scion of Oona) and it can take a hit without being missed to much.
Also, Bonded Fetch I believe is also being overlooked as a MD card, t2/t3 card draw that discards combo peices that works every turn, and on the odd chance that you combo off without a mulldrifter or bounce it can be recycled and act as a drifter (I believe, not totally sure with this, but it does have haste, could someone please clarify if this works or not), and I'm not saying drop Careful Consideration, I'm suggesting 2 of each.
Mutavault I'm not sure of its part in the deck, it gives a colorless mana, can attack for 2, and mabye a chump blocker? All these things are nice, but I'm not sure if they are needed. Mabye 2 at the most.
Lastly, has anyone thought of adding Magus of the Moat? 0/3 so it can be recovered with lark, can stop rdw, elves, and ramp. The only resson why the MotMoat MIGHT then Teferi's Moat is..1) better is because no one will SB in extra removal for it, (at least not likely) and 2)like I said above, works with the lark.
Well, to address a few points.
One, if your list is running heavy basics, then yes nimbus maze is excellant.
Mawcor is definately a potential sideboard card against fae, but as has been said, we tend to be packing a heavy side against them anyway, and it's less effective than crovax.
Many of the lists are currently running bonded fetch, including myself (3). These lists tend to be the more combo-centric versions.
As to mutavault, and this is important... Mutavault almost single-handedly makes our merfolk matchup possible. This card, especially along with sower, can allow you to outrace merfolk handily, especially if you can manage to sower a reejery. I've rarely had a huge issue with its colorless-only mana since I adopted coldsteel heart fully. Also, don't underestimate its ability to buy a crucial turn against, say, a resolved oversoul of dusk when you don't have the wrath.
As to magus of the moat, you're really better off just wrathing if you can resolve a magus here. Teferi's Moat is so effective because it can really catch a lot of decks with their pants down on enchantment removal, whereas removing an x/3 creature is quite easy for almost every deck in the format.
And as per our discussion . . . you're making a poor card selection choice based on a low % event (land flood, and alive w/7+factory needing tokens).
For those who have tried/use the red splash... how has Magus of the Moon affected you when it resolves... ? Honesty and objectivity pls, it's ok to have a lost a game of MtG
I've adopted the red splash, and so far, magus hasn't mattered a *ton*. Playing 4 coldsteel helps a TON. Sure, there are games where he comes down and you just plain don't have an answer, but so far they've been few. Tonight, for instance, I tested about 12 games (all pre sideboard, because he doesn't have his put together yet) against the furystoke deck, and he runs 3 magus main. Magus only sealed the deal for him once, and that was on a game where I mulled to 5 anyway. In at least 3 games magus came down turn 3 and didn't have a significant impact. And this is before I sideboard in my clasms.
I tested tonight with one of the PT top 8 vark decks and I really, really struggled versus both Faeries and Merfolk until I made some changes. This is the result of some of those changes.
I think Wrath effects are key against these two decks, Merfolk moreso, so I'm at 4 Wrath and 1 Sulfurous Blast. My earlier build had no Rune Snags... this is not an option at all. Needs to be 4x.
Pact of Negation is necessary against Merfolk and Faeries. Upped to 3x maindeck. It's not a bad card against everyone else either. It deserves the slots.
Makeshift Mannequin has been great against every deck, both early and late.
Coldsteel Heart is abysmal. It's really bad. The tempo loss is unforgivable. I also hated the 23 land 6 artifact setup. I was getting dropscrewed left and right, and people were landoing me with their countermagic. Prismatic Lens has always been my favorite of the 3 potential accelerators, and tonight convinced me even further that this is correct in UWx vark.
what do you guys think is best Careful Consideration or Bonded Fetch? What can I cut for Aven riftwatchter MD?
What do you think of SB, i am expecting mostly GB elves, Faeries and maybe some lark, merfolk
I'd go with consideration over fetch. No, Actually, I'd cut them for Avens, if you want them For the 3rd one you may cut some accel.
I definately wouldnt go down to 2 gargs, as the sowered-creature-saccing is one of the strongest aspects of the UWr-list imo (and with only 2 gargs it obv won't happen that often).
Still, I'm missing the tempo-root that UW was able to go(especially the now-hated riftwing was great for that). the R-splash seems more combo-reliant, and this means gy-hate hurts more. of course we can still go with rev / garg-beats, but ME+flyers did this job better...
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GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
~Perhaps I should eat crow about Gargadon.
~Rune Snag is garbage. Reinforcing my earlier belief.
~I have no reason to play in, but if I were to play Regionals, my focus with Lark would be to beat aggro, not Faeries. Moe on this later.
~Play Pyroclasm.
My reasoning for running Gargadon is based solely on two points; 1) Running red for SB Pyroclasm 2) Sower synergy. Pyroclasm out of the board is insane against so many match ups, so for me to run it, I obviously have no reason to not run Gargs.
I have hated Rune Snag from the beginning. It is a bad card, outside dedicated permission decks that require a 2cc counter. After some reasoning, I came to the conclusion that we are better off cutting them, and shoring up our other slots. Are they good against Fae? Well, not really. We are not going to out permission them, and setting up a 5 drop with Snag back up is ridiculously slow.
Regarding Fae; you want to out threat them Game 1, period. Trying to sculpt a deck that can simultaneously beat Fae game 1, and aggro decks, is simply not possible in the consistency levels that we want. Moreover, as evidenced by Hollywood, the hate for Faeries is extremely high, opening up the field to more G/W, R/G, Elves, RDW decks, exactly what we want to face, but be able to smash Game 1 no questions. Our board is how we beat Fae, simple as that. With the new popular addition of red to the deck, we also gain perhaps the best underplayed card in the format, Pyroclasm. This card is a beast right now. Against Fae it si so, so good. Coupled with the additional hate package in the board, I have little trouble with Fae, and smash aggro.
Pyroclasm is the bee's knee's. I mentioned it against the Fae match, but it also ruins decks like Elves, especially when they are on the play. For example, a routine occurrence in testing;
Opponent T1: Land, Llanowar Elf
Me T1: Land, go.
Opponent T2: Land, Perfect.
Me T2: Land Pyroclasm.
In this regular situation, (Perfect could really be any three drop on turn 2 in this format), you ruin their board position, and set them back turns, buying you time to sculpt your hand or set up a play. It is also really good against Magus, and RDW crazy Maniac draws.
@BL: i like the idea of pyroclasm--it seems like a stretch for the manabase to reliably give access to G early (unless you run lenses... see below), so firespout doesn't look all that consistent.
i know how you feel about rune snag, and i understand why. it's pretty worthless in the late game and even the mid-game a lot of the time, especially if you didn't play one early. it's only real use is to slow down your opponent in the early game while you build. so i'm fine living without it as long as i have something that fills that role, but i don't see anything like that in your list. have you considered pyroclasm MD?
i'm also curious why you have only 2 heart and 3 stones... game 1 magus of the moon looks like an auto loss. not only do you have very little access to basics and no early solutions, but you have nothing red in the main aside from gargadon. how are you going to cope? i know hearts cipt, but it seems like you want at least 3x. not coincidentally, MD pyroclasm would help here too.
on that note...
@Stan: hearts or lenses? i don't like CIPT, but i do like that i don't have to put mana into them to get the color i want. tempo is important, but our early game is spent accelerating and building anyway. you give up tempo in the first place with this plan, but you actually can play what you want earlier w/ hearts b/c you don't need to sink mana into them to make them give you the right color. ie you can combo out earlier. for that reason, i'm not sold on lenses at all.
for your build, tho, i can see why you love them. you have a rainbow of color requirements, and i'm sure lenses help you hit your variegated spells w/o much trouble. so i suppose the more you splash, the more you want lenses over hearts.
re: pyroclasm: I used to maindeck it, worrying about Faeries, but the Faerie testing I've done just involves them going Clique-and-protect. Pyroclasm has been dead half the time, and I would rather have been able to counter their Mistbind, Scion, and Bitterblossom if on the play. Ideally, you'll want to force out their counters while stopping their damage ramp -- mana 5 gamebreaker with a Pact backup is ideal, but mana 7 gamebreaker with a Rune Snag backup can, and does, happen. You can't complain that mana 7 is "too late against Faeries" when your whole plan is to constipate their damage in the early game.
@o7irg: Aven Riftwatcher might be the first guy I put back in. My decklist is ever-changing. Against the current metagame, which is so fast that it makes me frightened, should I just move Venser to sideboard? It doesn't seem terrible to do that right now.
for your build, tho, i can see why you love them. you have a rainbow of color requirements, and i'm sure lenses help you hit your variegated spells w/o much trouble. so i suppose the more you splash, the more you want lenses over hearts.
Loving this build, but I've got some questions. I just came back to Magic after a long hiatus, so I'm still getting ramped up.
1) What are general sideboard strategies? I understand some: Pyroclasm against aggro weenies, but what are you taking out for them?
2) How do you phrase the "combo"? I don't want to get caught in a rules situation I don't quite understand. I understand you sac Body Double and a money card to the Gargadon, but what is the timing?
2) How do you phrase the "combo"? I don't want to get caught in a rules situation I don't quite understand. I understand you sac Body Double and a money card to the Gargadon, but what is the timing?
Let's say this is your board:
Aven Riftwatcher, Body Double (copying Lark), suspended Gargadon.
You would sack Riftwatcher, in response to the sacrifice, sacrifice Body Double, the Lark trigger will go on the stack. Bring back Body Double (copying Lark) and Riftwatcher. Still in response to the previous sac triggers, just repeat to gain as much life as you want. Conversely, if you have the Venser, you just bounce all their permanents.
Heart is better than Lens because Magus of the Moon exists in this format.
... That makes no sense wouldn't you rather have a card that is able to make you any color you want rather than a card that makes one of your three colors. Especially if you have no basics in play when magus hits. The reason heart is played over lens is because you don't want to pay the extra mana to make a color. But IMO lens is superior when magus drops.
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I said I'm not sure. I mean, I want to have children, but I could change my mind down the road, or simply have my testicles cut off in some kind of freak accident. It's just too early for me to tell.
You have Gargadon on suspend.
You have at least either Body Double or Reveillark in play, and the other in your gy.
You should also have at least one utility-creature somewhere, or otherwise this looping is (almost) pointless.
You sac the Reveillark to Gargadon. Reveillarks leaves-play trigger goes to the stack. Let it resolve. Bring back Body Double (reveillark) and your utility-creature - say venser.
Venser's comes into play-ability goes to the stack - let it resolve.
Now the "remove a counter from gg" would go into the stack. (sacrificing the creature was the cost for this ability) Do not let that resolve. Respond to that by saccing the Venser and BD and rinse and repeat.
So you can do this majillion times even with only one counter left in gargadon.
Very cool. The trick is that because it's a cost you can do this, right? When you sac the BD, he can return himself? That seems a little weird.
What can interrupt this? How do you play around discarding a Faerie Macabre?
Really, the only thing you need to side heavily for with my list is Fae.
I would do something like:
-4 Wrath of God
-4 Aven Riftwatcher
-2 Careful Consideration
-2 Momentary Blink
+4 Pyroclasm
+3 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
+3 Pact of Negation
+2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
That's a heck of a board for Faeries, but I like it. I'm probably taking this to Regionals, so a lot of practicing to do until then. This build feels a lot smoother than some of the others though.
Thanks again for the help. Very much appreciated. Hard coming back and being pretty scrubby again
-4 Wrath of God
-4 Aven Riftwatcher
-2 Careful Consideration
-2 Momentary Blink
+4 Pyroclasm
+3 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
+3 Pact of Negation
+2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Against aggro:
-2 Careful Consideration
-1 Sower of Temptation
-2 Wrath of God
-2 Aven Riftwathcer
+3 Kitchen Finks
+4 Pyroclasm (if facing Elves on the draw)
You take out avens against aggro? really?
I can agree with taking out wrath, as pyroclasms are ze cheaper wraths, but for the Avens I need an explation from you venser seems much weaker here... first intentation was to side out blinks, but with 7 lifegainers, blink is gold.
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What everyone's thoughts on Oblivion Ring? I could see it replaceing a counter and adding some single board removal to the deck. When you draw it you can take something out instead of waiting for them to play something.
Aven Riftwatcher, Body Double (copying Lark), suspended Gargadon.
You would sack Riftwatcher, in response to the sacrifice, sacrifice Body Double, the Lark trigger will go on the stack. Bring back Body Double (copying Lark) and Riftwatcher. Still in response to the previous sac triggers, just repeat to gain as much life as you want. Conversely, if you have the Venser, you just bounce all their permanents.
Let's say this is your board:
venser (or aven), body (copying Lark) and suspended gargadon
you bounce all their permanents... but at the "end" what is on the board?
gargadon unsuspend?
you have on the board venser, body (lark) and gargadon or gargadon remain suspended?
I'm thinking of trying that jank-tech card some faeries players side for the mirror: Fledgling Mawcor. It's got power two or less, so Reveillark can bring it back... anyone with me?
Also, how does this deck deal with a cloudthresher when the combo isn't assembled? It seems deadly...
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"Boros ran red because it could play almost like sligh, except cheating."
~pg 12, Kithkin White Weenie Thread
i've been testing with red for about 2 weeks now. not sure if it's better then the u/w vers. you lose the tempo lose of riftwing but gain pyroclasm and a sac outlet. anyway here is my list
Lands
2x Mystic Gate (only have 2)
2x Shivan Reef
2x Battlefield Forge (only have 2)
1x Mutavault (only have 1)
1x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Meadow
2x Reflecting Pool
4x Adarkar Wastes
2x Plains
5x Island
2x Faerie Conclave
2x Venser, Shaper Savant
3x Greater Gargadon
2x Aven Riftwatcher
3x Bonded Fetch
3x Body Double
3x Sower of Temptation
4x Reveillark
4x Mulldrifter
3x Coldsteel Heart
3x Mind Stone
2x Careful Consideration
2x Momentary Blink
3x Wrath of God
before anyone starts yes it is 61 cards. it plays well at 61 cards. as for the main deck. I like the extra draw in bonded fetch. it allows me to go super combo if needed. Now sure if 3 wrath effects is worth it or go down to 2. As for the sb. it's basic stuff but allways trying new stuff.
Now the hard part. How the heck do you sb this thing right. I've tryed a few things but never like taking cards out. please let me know what's the best cards to take out. i've been playing the u/w vers for 2 months now. in that i cut riftwing and maybe mindstone or 1 blink. now with this. i don't see many cards to take out.
also if you think anything could be fixed let me know. i'll test and see if it works.
p.s maybe going back to condem would be good with all the manlands around
You take out avens against aggro? really?
I can agree with taking out wrath, as pyroclasms are ze cheaper wraths, but for the Avens I need an explation from you venser seems much weaker here... first intentation was to side out blinks, but with 7 lifegainers, blink is gold.
Faeries isn't aggro, first of all. It has SOME aggro elements, but plays nothing like it. You take out Aven Riftwatcher basically because it accomplishes nothing in that particular MU. The cards you're bringing in deal with the one or two Faeries that the Aven could've blocked and so much more. The lifegain is irrelevant, and he isn't even a permanent blocker. It's not very useful in that MU.
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For those who have tried/use the red splash... how has Magus of the Moon affected you when it resolves... ? Honesty and objectivity pls, it's ok to have a lost a game of MtG
-TEAM REVOLUTION
PVDD's list of Faeries - which is the most likely to be barned by most players as it Top 8'd PT Hollywood - is only running 4 basic Islands. Lark loses a lot but has artifact color-fixing mana.
Honestly, I've found Crovax to quite simply cost a little too much. 6 mana is a LOT... I think that's why people are looking for alternate solutions... Have you really found that much success with Crovax? I agree with everything else you say, though.
against faeries, it's basically been my only route to success (teferi can help sometimes, but he's not really enough on his own if they have their team up). he is heavy at 6 mana, but he is utterly back-breaking, dropping the entire faerie team save mistbind clique (putting aside double scion, but if it comes to that you're pretty screwed anyway). and he pumps lark, ME, and riftwatcher... gotta love that. oh, and btw, don't forget to read that last ability of his... it comes in handy sometimes.
6cc isn't too much for this deck, tho: reveillark itself is 5cc and 6 on evoke... the accel in this deck is built to lay down reveillark and friends asap to clinch the game in most MUs. in the faerie MU, the goal posts are simply moved back a turn. and you have to survive the beats ...and you have to build your hand despite being thoughtseized ...and you have to cope with counters... yeah, it's pretty miserable. but, if you play your own counters judiciously and build your hand/keep CA, you can pull out the win sometimes by forcing down crovax.
that's my experience, anyway. i wouldn't take that as gospel or anything--i just test and play locally when i can. but, a look at the hollywood SBs and a search of the archived thread would show you that i'm far from alone in this opinion. even in this thread: look at BL's SB or check Shin's list in his sig; or the first list posted (mihara's) or just about anybody's list posted here.
really: play crovax. he's worth it.
My Trades
Far out, man
Well, to address a few points.
One, if your list is running heavy basics, then yes nimbus maze is excellant.
Mawcor is definately a potential sideboard card against fae, but as has been said, we tend to be packing a heavy side against them anyway, and it's less effective than crovax.
Many of the lists are currently running bonded fetch, including myself (3). These lists tend to be the more combo-centric versions.
As to mutavault, and this is important... Mutavault almost single-handedly makes our merfolk matchup possible. This card, especially along with sower, can allow you to outrace merfolk handily, especially if you can manage to sower a reejery. I've rarely had a huge issue with its colorless-only mana since I adopted coldsteel heart fully. Also, don't underestimate its ability to buy a crucial turn against, say, a resolved oversoul of dusk when you don't have the wrath.
As to magus of the moat, you're really better off just wrathing if you can resolve a magus here. Teferi's Moat is so effective because it can really catch a lot of decks with their pants down on enchantment removal, whereas removing an x/3 creature is quite easy for almost every deck in the format.
I've adopted the red splash, and so far, magus hasn't mattered a *ton*. Playing 4 coldsteel helps a TON. Sure, there are games where he comes down and you just plain don't have an answer, but so far they've been few. Tonight, for instance, I tested about 12 games (all pre sideboard, because he doesn't have his put together yet) against the furystoke deck, and he runs 3 magus main. Magus only sealed the deal for him once, and that was on a game where I mulled to 5 anyway. In at least 3 games magus came down turn 3 and didn't have a significant impact. And this is before I sideboard in my clasms.
3 Battlefield Forge
2 Shivan Reef
1 Snow-Covered Plains
5 Snow-Covered Island
3 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Meadow
4 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Mouth of Ronom
Creatures
4 Mulldrifter
3 Body Double
4 Reveillark
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Greater Gargadon
3 Sower of Temptation
4 Wrath of God
3 Pact of Negation
1 Sulfurous Blast
4 Rune Snag
4 Prismatic Lens
2 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Teferi's Moat
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
3 Firespout
3 Avalanche Riders
I tested tonight with one of the PT top 8 vark decks and I really, really struggled versus both Faeries and Merfolk until I made some changes. This is the result of some of those changes.
I think Wrath effects are key against these two decks, Merfolk moreso, so I'm at 4 Wrath and 1 Sulfurous Blast. My earlier build had no Rune Snags... this is not an option at all. Needs to be 4x.
Pact of Negation is necessary against Merfolk and Faeries. Upped to 3x maindeck. It's not a bad card against everyone else either. It deserves the slots.
Makeshift Mannequin has been great against every deck, both early and late.
Coldsteel Heart is abysmal. It's really bad. The tempo loss is unforgivable. I also hated the 23 land 6 artifact setup. I was getting dropscrewed left and right, and people were landoing me with their countermagic. Prismatic Lens has always been my favorite of the 3 potential accelerators, and tonight convinced me even further that this is correct in UWx vark.
Trade Thread
I'd go with consideration over fetch. No, Actually, I'd cut them for Avens, if you want them For the 3rd one you may cut some accel.
I definately wouldnt go down to 2 gargs, as the sowered-creature-saccing is one of the strongest aspects of the UWr-list imo (and with only 2 gargs it obv won't happen that often).
Still, I'm missing the tempo-root that UW was able to go(especially the now-hated riftwing was great for that). the R-splash seems more combo-reliant, and this means gy-hate hurts more. of course we can still go with rev / garg-beats, but ME+flyers did this job better...
4 Mystic Gate
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Mutavault
4 Vivid Creek
4 Island
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Plains
Creatures
4 Sower of Temptation
4 Aven Riftwatcher
4 Reveillark
4 Mulldrifter
3 Body Double
3 Greater Gargadon
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Wrath of God
3 Mind Stone
2 Careful Consideration
2 Momentary Blink
2 Coldsteel Heart
4 Pyroclasm
3 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Pact of Negation
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
The immediate thing's I realized were:
~Perhaps I should eat crow about Gargadon.
~Rune Snag is garbage. Reinforcing my earlier belief.
~I have no reason to play in, but if I were to play Regionals, my focus with Lark would be to beat aggro, not Faeries. Moe on this later.
~Play Pyroclasm.
My reasoning for running Gargadon is based solely on two points; 1) Running red for SB Pyroclasm 2) Sower synergy. Pyroclasm out of the board is insane against so many match ups, so for me to run it, I obviously have no reason to not run Gargs.
I have hated Rune Snag from the beginning. It is a bad card, outside dedicated permission decks that require a 2cc counter. After some reasoning, I came to the conclusion that we are better off cutting them, and shoring up our other slots. Are they good against Fae? Well, not really. We are not going to out permission them, and setting up a 5 drop with Snag back up is ridiculously slow.
Regarding Fae; you want to out threat them Game 1, period. Trying to sculpt a deck that can simultaneously beat Fae game 1, and aggro decks, is simply not possible in the consistency levels that we want. Moreover, as evidenced by Hollywood, the hate for Faeries is extremely high, opening up the field to more G/W, R/G, Elves, RDW decks, exactly what we want to face, but be able to smash Game 1 no questions. Our board is how we beat Fae, simple as that. With the new popular addition of red to the deck, we also gain perhaps the best underplayed card in the format, Pyroclasm. This card is a beast right now. Against Fae it si so, so good. Coupled with the additional hate package in the board, I have little trouble with Fae, and smash aggro.
Pyroclasm is the bee's knee's. I mentioned it against the Fae match, but it also ruins decks like Elves, especially when they are on the play. For example, a routine occurrence in testing;
Opponent T1: Land, Llanowar Elf
Me T1: Land, go.
Opponent T2: Land, Perfect.
Me T2: Land Pyroclasm.
In this regular situation, (Perfect could really be any three drop on turn 2 in this format), you ruin their board position, and set them back turns, buying you time to sculpt your hand or set up a play. It is also really good against Magus, and RDW crazy Maniac draws.
@BL: i like the idea of pyroclasm--it seems like a stretch for the manabase to reliably give access to G early (unless you run lenses... see below), so firespout doesn't look all that consistent.
i know how you feel about rune snag, and i understand why. it's pretty worthless in the late game and even the mid-game a lot of the time, especially if you didn't play one early. it's only real use is to slow down your opponent in the early game while you build. so i'm fine living without it as long as i have something that fills that role, but i don't see anything like that in your list. have you considered pyroclasm MD?
i'm also curious why you have only 2 heart and 3 stones... game 1 magus of the moon looks like an auto loss. not only do you have very little access to basics and no early solutions, but you have nothing red in the main aside from gargadon. how are you going to cope? i know hearts cipt, but it seems like you want at least 3x. not coincidentally, MD pyroclasm would help here too.
on that note...
@Stan: hearts or lenses? i don't like CIPT, but i do like that i don't have to put mana into them to get the color i want. tempo is important, but our early game is spent accelerating and building anyway. you give up tempo in the first place with this plan, but you actually can play what you want earlier w/ hearts b/c you don't need to sink mana into them to make them give you the right color. ie you can combo out earlier. for that reason, i'm not sold on lenses at all.
for your build, tho, i can see why you love them. you have a rainbow of color requirements, and i'm sure lenses help you hit your variegated spells w/o much trouble. so i suppose the more you splash, the more you want lenses over hearts.
My Trades
Far out, man
EDH:
UBGThe MimeoplasmUBG
@o7irg: Aven Riftwatcher might be the first guy I put back in. My decklist is ever-changing. Against the current metagame, which is so fast that it makes me frightened, should I just move Venser to sideboard? It doesn't seem terrible to do that right now.
That might be the long and short of it.
Lens, by the way, is not a non-basic land...
If you think about it, this is actually an argument for Lens -- with 4x Mystic Gate in the deck, Heart often comes down as red.
Loving this build, but I've got some questions. I just came back to Magic after a long hiatus, so I'm still getting ramped up.
1) What are general sideboard strategies? I understand some: Pyroclasm against aggro weenies, but what are you taking out for them?
2) How do you phrase the "combo"? I don't want to get caught in a rules situation I don't quite understand. I understand you sac Body Double and a money card to the Gargadon, but what is the timing?
Thanks!
Really, the only thing you need to side heavily for with my list is Fae.
I would do something like:
-4 Wrath of God
-4 Aven Riftwatcher
-2 Careful Consideration
-2 Momentary Blink
+4 Pyroclasm
+3 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
+3 Pact of Negation
+2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Against aggro:
-2 Careful Consideration
-1 Sower of Temptation
-2 Wrath of God
-2 Aven Riftwathcer
+3 Kitchen Finks
+4 Pyroclasm (if facing Elves on the draw)
Let's say this is your board:
Aven Riftwatcher, Body Double (copying Lark), suspended Gargadon.
You would sack Riftwatcher, in response to the sacrifice, sacrifice Body Double, the Lark trigger will go on the stack. Bring back Body Double (copying Lark) and Riftwatcher. Still in response to the previous sac triggers, just repeat to gain as much life as you want. Conversely, if you have the Venser, you just bounce all their permanents.
... That makes no sense wouldn't you rather have a card that is able to make you any color you want rather than a card that makes one of your three colors. Especially if you have no basics in play when magus hits. The reason heart is played over lens is because you don't want to pay the extra mana to make a color. But IMO lens is superior when magus drops.
Very cool. The trick is that because it's a cost you can do this, right? When you sac the BD, he can return himself? That seems a little weird.
What can interrupt this? How do you play around discarding a Faerie Macabre?
Thanks for the help!
That's a heck of a board for Faeries, but I like it. I'm probably taking this to Regionals, so a lot of practicing to do until then. This build feels a lot smoother than some of the others though.
Thanks again for the help. Very much appreciated. Hard coming back and being pretty scrubby again
You take out avens against aggro? really?
I can agree with taking out wrath, as pyroclasms are ze cheaper wraths, but for the Avens I need an explation from you venser seems much weaker here... first intentation was to side out blinks, but with 7 lifegainers, blink is gold.
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DCI Rules Advisor
Let's say this is your board:
venser (or aven), body (copying Lark) and suspended gargadon
you bounce all their permanents... but at the "end" what is on the board?
gargadon unsuspend?
you have on the board venser, body (lark) and gargadon or gargadon remain suspended?
sorry for bad english, i'm italian...
Also, how does this deck deal with a cloudthresher when the combo isn't assembled? It seems deadly...
~pg 12, Kithkin White Weenie Thread
Lands
2x Mystic Gate (only have 2)
2x Shivan Reef
2x Battlefield Forge (only have 2)
1x Mutavault (only have 1)
1x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Meadow
2x Reflecting Pool
4x Adarkar Wastes
2x Plains
5x Island
2x Faerie Conclave
2x Venser, Shaper Savant
3x Greater Gargadon
2x Aven Riftwatcher
3x Bonded Fetch
3x Body Double
3x Sower of Temptation
4x Reveillark
4x Mulldrifter
3x Coldsteel Heart
3x Mind Stone
2x Careful Consideration
2x Momentary Blink
3x Wrath of God
sidebord
2x Crovax, Ascendant Hero
4x Pyroclasm
2x Aven Riftwatcher
2x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2x Pact of Negation
2x Teferi's Moat
1x Kitchen Finks
before anyone starts yes it is 61 cards. it plays well at 61 cards. as for the main deck. I like the extra draw in bonded fetch. it allows me to go super combo if needed. Now sure if 3 wrath effects is worth it or go down to 2. As for the sb. it's basic stuff but allways trying new stuff.
Now the hard part. How the heck do you sb this thing right. I've tryed a few things but never like taking cards out. please let me know what's the best cards to take out. i've been playing the u/w vers for 2 months now. in that i cut riftwing and maybe mindstone or 1 blink. now with this. i don't see many cards to take out.
also if you think anything could be fixed let me know. i'll test and see if it works.
p.s maybe going back to condem would be good with all the manlands around
Faeries isn't aggro, first of all. It has SOME aggro elements, but plays nothing like it. You take out Aven Riftwatcher basically because it accomplishes nothing in that particular MU. The cards you're bringing in deal with the one or two Faeries that the Aven could've blocked and so much more. The lifegain is irrelevant, and he isn't even a permanent blocker. It's not very useful in that MU.
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