I def. disagree re: Elves... again... Wall of Roots, Terror... seems sucky...
If you like Rune Snag then stick with it.... that's all anyone has said. Those who don't like them have given the same reasons infi times, no point starting this up again.
Murderous Redcap is unnecessary... infi dmg is only relevant in g1 of the mirror tbh... an even then, if they combo, they're going to get infi bounce as well.
Wall of Roots as a blocker against elves is not a good argument. That thing dies to Vanquisher, can't block a Colossus or Goyf and might be too small for anything else in case you actually use it to produce mana. Signets don't block, but get any color for us or draw us a card. Seriously, Wall of Roots ain't that cool. It can be that "stall for a turn" card you need, when Heart would otherwise be useless.
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Storm Boards - We don't like to use the attack step.
@mikey: congrats on 3rd/4-1...my sympathy on the -1... i f***ing hate losing just that random 1, but overall it's still a good place to be.
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so i was reading MTG.com today, and their numbers from US Nats showed that RDW/Demigod DW had a +50% MU against lark... which sounded a little high on crack to me...i'm guessing it's mostly an issue of magus of the moon meets non-basic.manabase...
but just for the sake of due diligence, i built the first place deck (well, i'm short a couple of FoDs and the Demigods, but close enough w/ proxies ) and tested for a while with this build:
Between the 5 non-basics, 4 firespouts, and 4 CSH, magus was almost never a problem... in fact, it was complete pwnage for the lark deck.
I'm still trying to figure out my SB and would appreciate any ideas... I've only lost to rogues and fae recently. I'm considering losing Teferis for +1 wrath and (+1 PoN or +1 Remove Soul)... comments? I still like Teferi for fae, of course, but... well, idk wtf. T is still so good in that MU, but i'd like to bring down the cc of the cards i side in for that MU. archmage is great, but flash is still pretty damn handy.
Been strong for me, though testing only. It's even better now ppl are making Fae closer to board control w/Finkel and Damnation.
Prob. want 2-3 MD PoN for best possible g1, but I feel good about it regardless. Calciform Pools and Cryptic Command just buys you so much time and versatility to combo off g1.
t2 BB obv. sucks a lot.... god hands tend to do that though.
that's about what i've found... no scion of oona is just fine by me. even in the older builds, being able to stop mistbind clique or double scion and draw has been very good. the fast t2 blossom, t3 scion games i still go down, but i otherwise feel i have a significantly better g1 than before.
Cryptic works in the deck... testing and results always > than theory. If you don't like it/approve, that's cool, but clearly throwing the same responses back and forth is pointless after a given amount of time.
Sure it does, when it is coupled with a proper counter suite and mana base, and not just randomly thrown in.
I don't base things on theory, but results. There in lyes the difference, you "test" (whatever this means, Im going to assume MWS...) and tout the card as all kinds of wonderful things, when in actuality your playing it in a very sub optimally built list, like Wiz. What results do you have?
but what do combo decks need to do most of the time, like chris mcdanials heartbeat desire deck, it used moments piece to by time, just like what we use cryptic for
Ya, except heartbeat didn't have 21-24 creatures to beat face with, and board control elements. It's only avenue of victory was combo.
As expected, RDW was everywhere, and it was an easy day, cruising to a 9-0.
In the swiss I faced 3x RDW, Fae, Lark, B/G Elves. In the T8 I faced R/u Storm, RDW, and Lark in the finals.
I almost got schooled by a teammate in the finals using my old tech of Persuasion. I had an obsession with this card, and it was nice to see it being played again, as it is really good.
The MVP card for me continues to be Teferi. I'm now siding hin in against RDW, as he takes away their EOT burn, making the deck slower. More over, he has a big butt and has to eat two burn spells, or a Flame Javelin to be removed. This is a good deal, as denying RDW it's reach spells is huge.
@WizaRJ: I'm more like 70-30 against RDW... they're better against Firespout now they have Figure... so what, Venser, Sower+GrG, combo and Cryptic > RDW in my experience...
TBH, (and I'm about to be a snob) I've found most audibling-Reveillark pilots assume too much about the deck and don't understand it or their particular list well enough... which is how you end up w/RDW having a 50+ % against the archetype.
Maybe mana screw... dunno... if post SB you have a full set of Finks and Firespout, it's a tough match up to lose I reckon...
Just for comparison, I thought I'd throw up the non-Cryptic list I'm concurrently testing. It's a lot more by the #s/go thru the motions... Pact of Negation I kinda miss, and wouldn't hate it alongside Cryptic Command in the MD... RDW is a bit good to get that greedy though.
Testing some new elements... MD Archmage (1-2), and playing around w/Bonded Fetch again.
But still sold on Cryptic personally.
@BL: I use MWS as a platform to test against ppl I know, not somewhere to find ppl play against... don't buy into MTGO, especially after the feedback re: MTGO 3. I have the results of my testing and the events I play in, for whatever that's worth to ppl who are interested.
So nice to have events like that every other week (or seems that way) !!!!!
Which country are you in btw... ?
Persuasion: relevant for Reveillark as an archetpye or not... ?
Persuasion: relevant for Reveillark as an archetpye or not... ?
I'm in Canada.
I have loved Persuasion for so long, and played it religiously in Mannequin, and early versions of this archetype.
In the mirror match it is just insane. Also, against RDW, snatching their Demigod is pretty much game over. It would also be good against Elves. Now, how relevant this card is at 5cc in current T2, I don't know.
We have decent stores and prize support... but nothing as outrageous as you have for damn standard events
I like Persuasion.... nothing wrong will having a harder-to-kill Sower and extra's on top of that... it's prob. beyond overkill though, granted (barring mirror-heavy meta).
Are the Steam Vents above supposed to be the UR filter lands? Sorry if the answer seems really obvious, I just want to make sure. I'm thinking of trying your list out, it seems more straightforward and consistent. Also, congrats on the win
@BL: i'm not sure why you would call my list sub-optimal... my list is perhaps 3 cards different than yours in the MD (not counting manabase atm), and my SB is maybe 4 cards off... 2 of which reflect the fast aggro meta that i play in (2x ***s) and 2 of which are just there for testing (archmages).
the 3 cards i have over yours are: 3x cryptic for 1x venser, 1x careful, and 1x mindstone. testing shows that: 1. 29 mana sources still works great and i'd rather have one more card--i'd not go less than that tho 2. venser for cryptic is a good trade b/c you get to choose two effects w/ cryptic...flexibility>combo piece.
i'll go so far as to agree w/ you that card for card, careful is better than cryptic much of the time in this archetype. but i'd swear that cryptic improves your fae MU, crushes RDW, and is one more piece in the arsenal against fast aggro.
careful can set you up to combo out, and that's huge, but it doesn't always. and even when it does, you often need one more turn to pull it off. cryptic doesn't pull 4 cards for you, but it does keep threats off the board, tap down threats on the board, cancel anything heading for your dome, bounce stuff, etc. it not only gives you time to find answers, but helps you stop threats in a way that careful cannot. it also supports an alpha strike ftw. it also returns sower or lark to your hand. it also cantrips...
so i kinda take exception to being told that my build is sub-optimal for being three cards different from yours, especially when my three cards have been called "best spell in the format". there is a method to the madness...i'd encourage you to try the card again, w/o the rest of the permission suite.
As expected, RDW was everywhere, and it was an easy day, cruising to a 9-0.
In the swiss I faced 3x RDW, Fae, Lark, B/G Elves. In the T8 I faced R/u Storm, RDW, and Lark in the finals.
I almost got schooled by a teammate in the finals using my old tech of Persuasion. I had an obsession with this card, and it was nice to see it being played again, as it is really good.
The MVP card for me continues to be Teferi. I'm now siding hin in against RDW, as he takes away their EOT burn, making the deck slower. More over, he has a big butt and has to eat two burn spells, or a Flame Javelin to be removed. This is a good deal, as denying RDW it's reach spells is huge.
Congrats on your tourney results! I actually have a few comments after reading through your decklist and related report:
If I recall correctly, the main reason for switching to the red-splash version was to sidestep some of the toughest matchups, namely Faeries. I've been witnessing the metagame switch from a faeries-dominated environment to one where everyone seems to be trying to stretch their mana base to abuse Reflecting Pool and CIPT lands to splash as many colors as possible.
Granted, I haven't been playing for a while, but seeing how current decklists stretch to splash for 3-8 off-color cards makes me wonder if the original U/W plan might be viable once more.
For reference, here's a sample U/W decklist taking your deck as a base:
On the plus-side, we regain some tools to seriously punish Reflecting Pool mana-bases and buy ourselves opportunity turns with Cloudskate unsuspending. On the down-side, I'm not quite certain just how harsh the one-turn delay on Wrath of God may be (it'd be interesting to compare this impact vs. the probability to have a color-screwed Firespout in hand).
Anyone care to comment on this?
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People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
@mikey: i personally find it easier to answer extirpate/fae mac without rune snags. snags are great and all, but they don't beat down. if you had more guys instead of 4 snags, you'd have more ways to shrug off graveyard hate by beating face. i think the last finks and a 3rd BD in particular would help you a lot. that would make you about as combo heavy as you can get, and you would then have two more slots for... well, whatever you think you need.
i personally think you need at least one more piece of accel (2 would be better, but i'll consider it a miracle if you even cut the snags, let alone add more accel ) and i tend to like CSH over mstones atm b/c of magus of the moon and b/c of cryptic. the last slot could be one more accel piece or your last firespout...i'd be in favor of adding that over any other non-accel card as it is a low cc addition to your card pool and a v. useful one.
i don't think redcap makes the cut anymore, but w/e.
if you don't like cutting the snags, you could probably drop a venser...
@BL: i'm not sure why you would call my list sub-optimal... my list is perhaps 3 cards different than yours in the MD (not counting manabase atm), and my SB is maybe 4 cards off... 2 of which reflect the fast aggro meta that i play in (2x ***s) and 2 of which are just there for testing (archmages).
the 3 cards i have over yours are: 3x cryptic for 1x venser, 1x careful, and 1x mindstone. testing shows that: 1. 29 mana sources still works great and i'd rather have one more card--i'd not go less than that tho 2. venser for cryptic is a good trade b/c you get to choose two effects w/ cryptic...flexibility>combo piece.
i'll go so far as to agree w/ you that card for card, careful is better than cryptic much of the time in this archetype. but i'd swear that cryptic improves your fae MU, crushes RDW, and is one more piece in the arsenal against fast aggro.
careful can set you up to combo out, and that's huge, but it doesn't always. and even when it does, you often need one more turn to pull it off. cryptic doesn't pull 4 cards for you, but it does keep threats off the board, tap down threats on the board, cancel anything heading for your dome, bounce stuff, etc. it not only gives you time to find answers, but helps you stop threats in a way that careful cannot. it also supports an alpha strike ftw. it also returns sower or lark to your hand. it also cantrips...
so i kinda take exception to being told that my build is sub-optimal for being three cards different from yours, especially when my three cards have been called "best spell in the format". there is a method to the madness...i'd encourage you to try the card again, w/o the rest of the permission suite.
Your missing the point, as those 3 cards make a substantial difference.
Your running a combo heavy version, with the full board control package, but have cut a combo piece, and a draw/combo enabler for 3 expensive utility cards, in a deck that has the most utility in the format. You do not need 3x Cryptic Command in this version of the deck.
You may take exception to the critique, but the point still remains that you are running cards that are counter intuative to your build of the deck.
Permission suites are designed to increase win %'s against permission based decks, namely Faeries, the enemy of this archetype. Simply adding 3 Command to a deck does not instantly increase this percentage, or make the match up better. You can not out permission Fae, you can however out mana them. This is why a permission suite of; 2 Pact/4 Snag or 4 Snag/4 Command is the correct way to go about it.
edit: @das ghost: it wasn't just because of faeries... gargadon is a win condition sometimes and sower + gargadon is basically gg, plus with unmake and kithkin in std now... gargadon makes it better
firespout is just the cream of the crop
Gotta love the way ppl think my nick is spelled after reading it instead of actually reading it. =)
I can understand the bonus of Greater Gargadon making your combo at least one turn faster. I guess I can possibly understand how Gargadon + Sower + combo turns into a permanent one-sided Wrath of God. I can't understand Greater Gargadon being a preferred win condition for this deck, as anything that could kill or stall your creatures could theoretically kill or stall a 9/7 creature without trample. Of all the reasons to support Gargadon you're quoting the weakest and it's not helping your cause.
This does not mean I think Gargadon is subpar. I'm merely wondering if the metagame shift actually makes Gargadon needed. I remember there was a lot of resistance to a color splash on this thread a while back on the grounds that it compromises the deck's consistency and is otherwise unneeded.
The metagame speed proved that mana consistency is second to sheer spell power, and it's precisely for this reason that I think that a straightforward U/W version might work. With the amount of CIPT lands in current decklists, the amount of tempo you could milk out of a Cloudskate + Blink is tempting to say the least, and I think it could pretty much make up for the inability to set up the combo faster.
Obviously, all this analysis is subject to the metagame's perceived speed. Firespout is basically a turn-three conditional Wrath and that says a lot about the dominance of aggro decks in the format. I have very little doubt that the U/W version is better suited for a slower metagame, so I guess the key question is whether Firespout-powered decks have slowed the metagame down to a point where we can consider playing straightforward U/W Reveillark.
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People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
hey, i'm going to play the national in my country this weekend and I want to know if someone can tell me which are the best sideboard cards against merfolk... thanks bye
lotus, how do you side against fae with your last list?
also, I don't get how is it that you are supposed to crush rdw with it, it looks like a tough matchup with that list, how do you side against rdw as well?
thank you
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<ThyGod> with persist on the stack <System> Player Lost
one more thing i forgot to add to my post.. i played against my friend yesterday, he was playing with elves, and i had to combo off or i died, i did everything blah blah blah... but... i was tapped out, so i couldn't suspend another gargadon to go infi on his upkeep
im starting to realize how much of a slow combo deck this archetype can be
has this happen to anyone else? it makes me think we should play 1 mirror entity or somethin... idk how it would solve the problem.. but maybe it would...
It's combo-control, not pure combo.
Mirror Entity is crap compared to Gargadon on the combo subject. If the game got you in that position, you simply shouldn't have played the combo, as there were no outs for after that play. You could try doing anything else and combo the next turn or something of the kind, but it might have been a case in which this deck lost actually lost. This deck isn't bullet proof, you know...
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Storm Boards - We don't like to use the attack step.
one more thing i forgot to add to my post.. i played against my friend yesterday, he was playing with elves, and i had to combo off or i died, i did everything blah blah blah... but... i was tapped out, so i couldn't suspend another gargadon to go infi on his upkeep
im starting to realize how much of a slow combo deck this archetype can be
has this happen to anyone else? it makes me think we should play 1 mirror entity or somethin... idk how it would solve the problem.. but maybe it would...
also im thinking from the maindeck -1 kitchen finks and add the third body double
then -1 wrath or remove soul and put the kitchen finks in its place, opinions and on which to remove if i should?
You lost because you dion't control the game/manage to set up your combo properly in advance. Mirror Entity is jank compared to GrG for this archetype.
Don't let tiny one-of occurrences screw up your lists so much... you're functioning on an OCD-level w/the # of changes you're making every day. Let it be and practice with a set list more. Changing the 60th card won't make you win more, nor will it make you a better MtG player.
cause i know that when we combo they can just kill our body double when it comes into to play in response so that it doesn't become lark...
You've been playing Reveillark for how long exactly? Cause I'd be kinda embarrassed to be playing this deck for over a week and not knowing that Body Double's CIP is not a trigger but a replacement ability, the same as pretty every Clone since 1993.
If nothing else, do note that if Body Double came into play as a 0/0 and THEN triggered, it would be put into your graveyard as a SBE before it would have a chance to copy anything. For a card that's seen as much competitive play as Body Double has for the last couple of years, that would be, um, bad...
Please do take this as a harsh teach instead of a flame (which it isn't). You can't expect to become a successful competitive player without actually knowing how the cards work. "As" is very different from "when" in the rules text of a Magic card, and the sooner you fill this and any other rules holes you get, the better at Magic you'll become.
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People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
is as soon as it hits play.. thats it, its lark or whatever i choose it to be?
Replacement effects do what the name suggests: they replace an effect with another. Replacement effects worded with "as X" add an effect to when X happens. In the case of Body Double:
"As Body Double comes into play, you may choose a creature card in a graveyard. If you do, Body Double comes into play as a copy of that card."
If it would come into play, instead, you may choose a creature in any graveyard. If you don't, it simply comes into play as a 0/0 and dies. If you do, it will come into play as a copy of the chosen card -- it doesn't enter the board as Body Double.
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Storm Boards - We don't like to use the attack step.
coming back to BD:
-when do i choose the creature it should become - at resolution?
-if so, the opponent isnt able to respond (with macabre) to my choice until it actually becomes that creature, right?
lets make it clear and obvious once for all
You choose when the creature resolves. if your oppoenent wishes to stop you form copying a target, he has to use FM while BD is on the stack. once BD resolves even if he uses FM, BD has already chosen its target and will be what ever you have chosen
lotus, how do you side against fae with your last list?
also, I don't get how is it that you are supposed to crush rdw with it, it looks like a tough matchup with that list, how do you side against rdw as well?
thank you
Fae is hard Game 1, and so-so Game 2. Keep in mind, my current list is NOT meta gamed to beat Fae. It is awful against Fae pre-board. It beats anything non-Fae, which is what my meta is.
Regarding RDW;
With 4 Firespout, and 4 MD Finks it makes their chances of winning much harder.
They MD Magus of Moon, their best answer to Lark. When we run MD answers to Magus, it creates a dead card in their deck.
Also, the creature quality, size, and recursion of our creatures creates a situation where they have to start throwing reach cards like Incinerate and Javelin at them, taking away a huge part of RDW strategy.
If you like Rune Snag then stick with it.... that's all anyone has said. Those who don't like them have given the same reasons infi times, no point starting this up again.
Murderous Redcap is unnecessary... infi dmg is only relevant in g1 of the mirror tbh... an even then, if they combo, they're going to get infi bounce as well.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
Storm Boards - We don't like to use the attack step.
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so i was reading MTG.com today, and their numbers from US Nats showed that RDW/Demigod DW had a +50% MU against lark... which sounded a little high on crack to me...i'm guessing it's mostly an issue of magus of the moon meets non-basic.manabase...
but just for the sake of due diligence, i built the first place deck (well, i'm short a couple of FoDs and the Demigods, but close enough w/ proxies
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Snow-Covered Island
4 Vivid Creek
3 Reflecting Pool
3 Mystic Gate
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Plains
2 Calciform Pools
2 Cascade Bluffs
Accel 5
4 Coldsteel Heart
1 Mind Stone
4 Mulldrifter
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Sower of Temptation
4 Reveillark
3 Body Double
3 Greater Gargadon
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Other 8
4 Firespout
3 Cryptic Command
1 Careful Consideration
3 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
2 Pact of Negation
2 Remove Soul
2 Trickbind
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Wrath of God
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Between the 5 non-basics, 4 firespouts, and 4 CSH, magus was almost never a problem... in fact, it was complete pwnage for the lark deck.
I'm still trying to figure out my SB and would appreciate any ideas... I've only lost to rogues and fae recently. I'm considering losing Teferis for +1 wrath and (+1 PoN or +1 Remove Soul)... comments? I still like Teferi for fae, of course, but... well, idk wtf. T is still so good in that MU, but i'd like to bring down the cc of the cards i side in for that MU. archmage is great, but flash is still pretty damn handy.
btw, MJ, how's fae g1 been for you recently?
My Trades
Been strong for me, though testing only. It's even better now ppl are making Fae closer to board control w/Finkel and Damnation.
Prob. want 2-3 MD PoN for best possible g1, but I feel good about it regardless. Calciform Pools and Cryptic Command just buys you so much time and versatility to combo off g1.
t2 BB obv. sucks a lot.... god hands tend to do that though.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
that's about what i've found... no scion of oona is just fine by me. even in the older builds, being able to stop mistbind clique or double scion and draw has been very good. the fast t2 blossom, t3 scion games i still go down, but i otherwise feel i have a significantly better g1 than before.
what about rdw? +50% against us? not true is it?
sb ideas?
My Trades
Yes, and?
The meta shifted, and the deck put up results with the aforementioned changes.
Sure it does, when it is coupled with a proper counter suite and mana base, and not just randomly thrown in.
I don't base things on theory, but results. There in lyes the difference, you "test" (whatever this means, Im going to assume MWS...) and tout the card as all kinds of wonderful things, when in actuality your playing it in a very sub optimally built list, like Wiz. What results do you have?
Our you could play Negate for 2cc, and be able to hit a T2 BB....
Wow, just wow.
Careful Consideration set's up very early combo wins, and digs deep for specific pieces or answers. How does this "not help our cause"?
It is one of the best cards in this archetype.
Ya, except heartbeat didn't have 21-24 creatures to beat face with, and board control elements. It's only avenue of victory was combo.
Huh?
Against slower more MD control versions, yes.
I finished first in an event Saturday with the below list, winning two play sets of Force of Wills and a box of Morningtide.
5 Island
4 Vivid Creek
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Mystic Gate
3 Plains
2 Steam Vents
2 Battlefield Forge
Creatures
4 Reveillark
4 Sower of Temptation
4 Mulldrifter
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Body Double
3 Greater Gargadon
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Firespout
3 Mind Stone
3 Careful Consideration
2 Coldsteel Heart
3 Pact of Negation
3 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
3 Trickbind
2 Remove Soul
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Wispmare
As expected, RDW was everywhere, and it was an easy day, cruising to a 9-0.
In the swiss I faced 3x RDW, Fae, Lark, B/G Elves. In the T8 I faced R/u Storm, RDW, and Lark in the finals.
I almost got schooled by a teammate in the finals using my old tech of Persuasion. I had an obsession with this card, and it was nice to see it being played again, as it is really good.
The MVP card for me continues to be Teferi. I'm now siding hin in against RDW, as he takes away their EOT burn, making the deck slower. More over, he has a big butt and has to eat two burn spells, or a Flame Javelin to be removed. This is a good deal, as denying RDW it's reach spells is huge.
TBH, (and I'm about to be a snob) I've found most audibling-Reveillark pilots assume too much about the deck and don't understand it or their particular list well enough... which is how you end up w/RDW having a 50+ % against the archetype.
Maybe mana screw... dunno... if post SB you have a full set of Finks and Firespout, it's a tough match up to lose I reckon...
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Mystic Gate
4 Vivid Creek
4 Snow-Covered Island
1 Plains
3 Calciform Pools
4 Coldsteel Heart
2 Mind Stone
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Reveillark
4 Sower of Temptation
3 Greater Gargadon
3 Body Double
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Firespout
3 Careful Consideration
2 Pact of Negation
1 Pact of Negation
3 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
1 Firespout
3 Remove Soul
2 Trickbind
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Wrath of God
Just for comparison, I thought I'd throw up the non-Cryptic list I'm concurrently testing. It's a lot more by the #s/go thru the motions... Pact of Negation I kinda miss, and wouldn't hate it alongside Cryptic Command in the MD... RDW is a bit good to get that greedy though.
Testing some new elements... MD Archmage (1-2), and playing around w/Bonded Fetch again.
But still sold on Cryptic personally.
@BL: I use MWS as a platform to test against ppl I know, not somewhere to find ppl play against... don't buy into MTGO, especially after the feedback re: MTGO 3. I have the results of my testing and the events I play in, for whatever that's worth to ppl who are interested.
So nice to have events like that every other week (or seems that way) !!!!!
Which country are you in btw... ?
Persuasion: relevant for Reveillark as an archetpye or not... ?
-TEAM REVOLUTION
We are blessed to have such good stores and prize support.
I'm in Canada.
I have loved Persuasion for so long, and played it religiously in Mannequin, and early versions of this archetype.
In the mirror match it is just insane. Also, against RDW, snatching their Demigod is pretty much game over. It would also be good against Elves. Now, how relevant this card is at 5cc in current T2, I don't know.
I like Persuasion.... nothing wrong will having a harder-to-kill Sower and extra's on top of that... it's prob. beyond overkill though, granted (barring mirror-heavy meta).
-TEAM REVOLUTION
Are the Steam Vents above supposed to be the UR filter lands? Sorry if the answer seems really obvious, I just want to make sure. I'm thinking of trying your list out, it seems more straightforward and consistent. Also, congrats on the win
the 3 cards i have over yours are: 3x cryptic for 1x venser, 1x careful, and 1x mindstone. testing shows that: 1. 29 mana sources still works great and i'd rather have one more card--i'd not go less than that tho 2. venser for cryptic is a good trade b/c you get to choose two effects w/ cryptic...flexibility>combo piece.
i'll go so far as to agree w/ you that card for card, careful is better than cryptic much of the time in this archetype. but i'd swear that cryptic improves your fae MU, crushes RDW, and is one more piece in the arsenal against fast aggro.
careful can set you up to combo out, and that's huge, but it doesn't always. and even when it does, you often need one more turn to pull it off. cryptic doesn't pull 4 cards for you, but it does keep threats off the board, tap down threats on the board, cancel anything heading for your dome, bounce stuff, etc. it not only gives you time to find answers, but helps you stop threats in a way that careful cannot. it also supports an alpha strike ftw. it also returns sower or lark to your hand. it also cantrips...
so i kinda take exception to being told that my build is sub-optimal for being three cards different from yours, especially when my three cards have been called "best spell in the format". there is a method to the madness...i'd encourage you to try the card again, w/o the rest of the permission suite.
My Trades
Congrats on your tourney results! I actually have a few comments after reading through your decklist and related report:
If I recall correctly, the main reason for switching to the red-splash version was to sidestep some of the toughest matchups, namely Faeries. I've been witnessing the metagame switch from a faeries-dominated environment to one where everyone seems to be trying to stretch their mana base to abuse Reflecting Pool and CIPT lands to splash as many colors as possible.
Granted, I haven't been playing for a while, but seeing how current decklists stretch to splash for 3-8 off-color cards makes me wonder if the original U/W plan might be viable once more.
For reference, here's a sample U/W decklist taking your deck as a base:
4 Mystic Gate
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Mutavault
6 Island
6 Plains
Creatures
4 Reveillark
3 Sower of Temptation
4 Mulldrifter
4 Riftwing Cloudskate
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Body Double
1 Mirror Entity
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Wrath of God
4 Mind Stone
2 Careful Consideration
2 Momentary Blink
3 Pact of Negation
3 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
3 Trickbind
2 Remove Soul
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Wispmare
On the plus-side, we regain some tools to seriously punish Reflecting Pool mana-bases and buy ourselves opportunity turns with Cloudskate unsuspending. On the down-side, I'm not quite certain just how harsh the one-turn delay on Wrath of God may be (it'd be interesting to compare this impact vs. the probability to have a color-screwed Firespout in hand).
Anyone care to comment on this?
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
i personally think you need at least one more piece of accel (2 would be better, but i'll consider it a miracle if you even cut the snags, let alone add more accel
i don't think redcap makes the cut anymore, but w/e.
if you don't like cutting the snags, you could probably drop a venser...
My Trades
Your missing the point, as those 3 cards make a substantial difference.
Your running a combo heavy version, with the full board control package, but have cut a combo piece, and a draw/combo enabler for 3 expensive utility cards, in a deck that has the most utility in the format. You do not need 3x Cryptic Command in this version of the deck.
You may take exception to the critique, but the point still remains that you are running cards that are counter intuative to your build of the deck.
Permission suites are designed to increase win %'s against permission based decks, namely Faeries, the enemy of this archetype. Simply adding 3 Command to a deck does not instantly increase this percentage, or make the match up better. You can not out permission Fae, you can however out mana them. This is why a permission suite of; 2 Pact/4 Snag or 4 Snag/4 Command is the correct way to go about it.
Gotta love the way ppl think my nick is spelled after reading it instead of actually reading it. =)
I can understand the bonus of Greater Gargadon making your combo at least one turn faster. I guess I can possibly understand how Gargadon + Sower + combo turns into a permanent one-sided Wrath of God. I can't understand Greater Gargadon being a preferred win condition for this deck, as anything that could kill or stall your creatures could theoretically kill or stall a 9/7 creature without trample. Of all the reasons to support Gargadon you're quoting the weakest and it's not helping your cause.
This does not mean I think Gargadon is subpar. I'm merely wondering if the metagame shift actually makes Gargadon needed. I remember there was a lot of resistance to a color splash on this thread a while back on the grounds that it compromises the deck's consistency and is otherwise unneeded.
The metagame speed proved that mana consistency is second to sheer spell power, and it's precisely for this reason that I think that a straightforward U/W version might work. With the amount of CIPT lands in current decklists, the amount of tempo you could milk out of a Cloudskate + Blink is tempting to say the least, and I think it could pretty much make up for the inability to set up the combo faster.
Obviously, all this analysis is subject to the metagame's perceived speed. Firespout is basically a turn-three conditional Wrath and that says a lot about the dominance of aggro decks in the format. I have very little doubt that the U/W version is better suited for a slower metagame, so I guess the key question is whether Firespout-powered decks have slowed the metagame down to a point where we can consider playing straightforward U/W Reveillark.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
also, I don't get how is it that you are supposed to crush rdw with it, it looks like a tough matchup with that list, how do you side against rdw as well?
thank you
<System> Player Lost
It's combo-control, not pure combo.
Mirror Entity is crap compared to Gargadon on the combo subject. If the game got you in that position, you simply shouldn't have played the combo, as there were no outs for after that play. You could try doing anything else and combo the next turn or something of the kind, but it might have been a case in which this deck lost actually lost. This deck isn't bullet proof, you know...
Storm Boards - We don't like to use the attack step.
You lost because you dion't control the game/manage to set up your combo properly in advance. Mirror Entity is jank compared to GrG for this archetype.
Don't let tiny one-of occurrences screw up your lists so much... you're functioning on an OCD-level w/the # of changes you're making every day. Let it be and practice with a set list more. Changing the 60th card won't make you win more, nor will it make you a better MtG player.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
I was actually referring to the random "h" everyone just assumes is there, when it isn't. But thanks for proving my point...
You've been playing Reveillark for how long exactly? Cause I'd be kinda embarrassed to be playing this deck for over a week and not knowing that Body Double's CIP is not a trigger but a replacement ability, the same as pretty every Clone since 1993.
If nothing else, do note that if Body Double came into play as a 0/0 and THEN triggered, it would be put into your graveyard as a SBE before it would have a chance to copy anything. For a card that's seen as much competitive play as Body Double has for the last couple of years, that would be, um, bad...
Please do take this as a harsh teach instead of a flame (which it isn't). You can't expect to become a successful competitive player without actually knowing how the cards work. "As" is very different from "when" in the rules text of a Magic card, and the sooner you fill this and any other rules holes you get, the better at Magic you'll become.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
Replacement effects do what the name suggests: they replace an effect with another. Replacement effects worded with "as X" add an effect to when X happens. In the case of Body Double:
"As Body Double comes into play, you may choose a creature card in a graveyard. If you do, Body Double comes into play as a copy of that card."
If it would come into play, instead, you may choose a creature in any graveyard. If you don't, it simply comes into play as a 0/0 and dies. If you do, it will come into play as a copy of the chosen card -- it doesn't enter the board as Body Double.
Storm Boards - We don't like to use the attack step.
Love your lists btw.
You choose when the creature resolves. if your oppoenent wishes to stop you form copying a target, he has to use FM while BD is on the stack. once BD resolves even if he uses FM, BD has already chosen its target and will be what ever you have chosen
Fae is hard Game 1, and so-so Game 2. Keep in mind, my current list is NOT meta gamed to beat Fae. It is awful against Fae pre-board. It beats anything non-Fae, which is what my meta is.
Regarding RDW;
With 4 Firespout, and 4 MD Finks it makes their chances of winning much harder.
They MD Magus of Moon, their best answer to Lark. When we run MD answers to Magus, it creates a dead card in their deck.
Also, the creature quality, size, and recursion of our creatures creates a situation where they have to start throwing reach cards like Incinerate and Javelin at them, taking away a huge part of RDW strategy.
RDW is a very easy match up.
Yes,
take a list, properly test it, and learn how to play the deck before continuously spamming this thread.
It is apparent your play skill and/or familiarity of this archetype is severely lacking.
RDW:
-2 Sower, -1 BD, +2 Remove Soul, +1 Teferi
Elves:
-2 Careful Consideration, +2 Remove Soul
Merfolk:
-2 BD, -1 Garg, -1 CC, +2 Teferi, +2 Remove Soul
Mirror:
-4 Finks, -4 Firespout, +3 Trickbind, +2 Teferi, +3 PoN
Fae:
-4 Firespout, -2 BD, -2 Garg, -4 Sower, +2 Teferi, +2 Wispmare, +3 Crovax, +3 PoN, +2 Remove Soul