Talon:
.Justice:
Faerie tokens can block. Faerie tokens have flying. Faerie tokens can amass until they can overwhelm the blockers and get some damage in. Bitterblossom is useful in a midrange deck, or a control deck. Bitterblossom is not terribly good in an aggro deck.
It's not that it's terrible in a vacum (although, it's not great in a vacum.) It's mostly that other options are better. You say it's great in tokens against toast. Personally, I'd rather have Thinax and Husk in the three drop slot, which have effect in a variety of other matchups as well. If your focusing on the toast MU, it's still beaten out by Fulminator Mage or Blightning. Even in tokens.
Oh, and just because the magic community has gotten things wrong in the past doesn't mean that it's worng now. It's usually right, which is why it's so notable when it's not.
1) For the last time, no one is making the argument that Goblin Assault = Bitterblossom. Stop regurgitating that strawman.
2) Husk and Thrinax being better in tokens. That's like saying Bitterblossom sucks because Tarmogoyf is "better in the 2 slot". Good token decks don't run 8x 1cc, 8x 2cc, 8x 3cc - they just don't. Good token decks run the glut of their cards at 2cc and 3cc. There's plenty of room there.
3) As for Fulminator Mage and Blightning being better in the Tokens vs. Toast MU, your lack of experience betrays you. Decks that are designed to present unorthodox threats (threats that don't bow down to Wrath) never run Stone Rain. Toast runs 26 land and plenty of card drawing. Also, Blightning is equally bad. In Tokens, Toast will usually see two cards to your one each game, so effectively you just paid 1BR for a cantrip Lava Spike - which is out of place. Blightning is good in decks that can finish before the control opponent recoups his lost cards - tokens can't. Tokens finish with persistence and inevitability, two things that Goblin Assault helps achieve and preserve.
4) The magic community usually getting things right. Sure, it's right about Cylian Elf. Most of the cards in a set are common, and the community usually pinpoints common constructed playables from unplayables pretty well. So, in that respect only, the community is usually right (notwithstanding Sakura-Tribe Elder, Wild Mongrel, Mystical Teachings and plenty of others that the community initially dismissed). However, we're talking about situations like the one at bar - where the community at large says a card is junk, and a few people who feel strongly about it disagree. In those situations, the majority is usually the one who is wrong (Tarmogoyf, Bitterblossom, Arcbound Ravager, Dark Confidant, Pithing Needle and the list is endless). These cards usually start off at $5'ish when the set is realeased. Goblin Assault is not going to break a format with Bitterblossom in it, but these same people feel strongly about it beyond the usual "it's a fun card" comment. Brains really are in short supply in the community.
1) For the last time, no one is making the argument that Goblin Assault = Bitterblossom. Stop regurgitating that strawman.
2) Husk and Thrinax being better in tokens. That's like saying Bitterblossom sucks because Tarmogoyf is "better in the 2 slot". Good token decks don't run 8x 1cc, 8x 2cc, 8x 3cc - they just don't. Good token decks run the glut of their cards at 2cc and 3cc. There's plenty of room there.
3) As for Fulminator Mage and Blightning being better in the Tokens vs. Toast MU, your lack of experience betrays you. Decks that are designed to present unorthodox threats (threats that don't bow down to Wrath) never run Stone Rain. Toast runs 26 land and plenty of card drawing. Also, Blightning is equally bad. In Tokens, Toast will usually see two cards to your one each game, so effectively you just paid 1BR for a cantrip Lava Spike - which is out of place. Blightning is good in decks that can finish before the control opponent recoups his lost cards - tokens can't. Tokens finish with persistence and inevitability, two things that Goblin Assault helps achieve and preserve.
4) The magic community usually getting things right. Sure, it's right about Cylian Elf. Most of the cards in a set are common, and the community usually pinpoints common constructed playables from unplayables pretty well. So, in that respect only, the community is usually right (notwithstanding Sakura-Tribe Elder, Wild Mongrel, Mystical Teachings and plenty of others that the community initially dismissed). However, we're talking about situations like the one at bar - where the community at large says a card is junk, and a few people who feel strongly about it disagree. In those situations, the majority is usually the one who is wrong (Tarmogoyf, Bitterblossom, Arcbound Ravager, Dark Confidant, Pithing Needle and the list is endless). These cards usually start off at $5'ish when the set is realeased. Goblin Assault is not going to break a format with Bitterblossom in it, but these same people feel strongly about it beyond the usual "it's a fun card" comment. Brains really are in short supply in the community.
1) I was explaining why Bitterblossom was good in midrange in response to you claiming it could never fit there if my logic was correct.
2) That's true - however, the quality of the cards glutting up a particular drop, especially 3 or more, has to be extremely high. You haven't shown how GA fits that. If you treat it like that, it's not only competing for a spot against other three drops, but all other cards that could possibly be included in the deck.
3) Ever heard of Tempo? Blightning or Fulminator Mage are really good tempo against QnT. They help make it so you don't get to the point in the game where they draw two cards to your one. They can also screw with iffy or risky hands. Tokens only finishes with persistence against things other than QnT. QnT is just better late game. In fact, the only place I could see GA getting run successfully in the current meta is 2x in the QnT sb, but it has to beat out a lot to get there.
4) "However, we're talking about situations like the one at bar - where the community at large says a card is junk, and a few people who feel strongly about it disagree. In those situations, the majority is usually the one who is wrong."
I could list so many counter examples I'd get carpal tunnel. Instead, I'll just point out that an awful lot of junk cards had a very passionate minority defending them.
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I really don't see why people DON'T like this card at all. Once you dedicate a spot to it in a deck, and in game actually drop the damn thing, you don't have to worry about the card again until another one is drawn, the benefits just keep coming. In my opinion, dedicating one turn to this card, 3 mana and a turn, starts to really weigh in well. The first turn it is a 1/1 haste for 3 mana, turn two it has given you 2 1/1's with haste for 3 mana, and at 3rd turn, it has nearly paid for itself. For everyone who says, "The token will just get chumpped and never get you anywhere." Maybe true, but they dedicated a creature to blocking it EVERY TURN, thus isn't it a form of removal? I hear there are a lot of good removal spells that cost 3. I don't like to judge cards that have POTENTIAL, before they have much of a chance to prove themselves. Saying this card is crap after just looking at it, is just not fair, people will find a use, they always do.
1) I was explaining why Bitterblossom was good in midrange in response to you claiming it could never fit there if my logic was correct.
2) That's true - however, the quality of the cards glutting up a particular drop, especially 3 or more, has to be extremely high. You haven't shown how GA fits that. If you treat it like that, it's not only competing for a spot against other three drops, but all other cards that could possibly be included in the deck.
3) Ever heard of Tempo? Blightning or Fulminator Mage are really good tempo against QnT. They help make it so you don't get to the point in the game where they draw two cards to your one. They can also screw with iffy or risky hands. Tokens only finishes with persistence against things other than QnT. QnT is just better late game. In fact, the only place I could see GA getting run successfully in the current meta is 2x in the QnT sb, but it has to beat out a lot to get there.
4) "However, we're talking about situations like the one at bar - where the community at large says a card is junk, and a few people who feel strongly about it disagree. In those situations, the majority is usually the one who is wrong."
I could list so many counter examples I'd get carpal tunnel. Instead, I'll just point out that an awful lot of junk cards had a very passionate minority defending them.
1) I said Bitterblossom was ONLY good in mid-range to control. That was to show the people saying that Goblin Assault was bad in aggro that the point was irrelevant. It was a misunderstanding.
2) GA fits well in the 3 slot of tokens. Research decklists.
3) My post explained why "Tempo" wasn't an objective of the Token strategy at all. QnT is not better late game. That's just lemming talk.
4) The counterexamples available don't fit the bill. I'm saying that whenever the intelligent minority defends a card, they're usually right. I actually mentioned some a few cards above that you would probably use in a counterexample. If you recall, cards like Circu, Dimir Lobotomist and Gaddock Teeg were actually touted by the unintelligentmajority while the experienced got behind cards like Firemane Angel and Cloudthresher in those blocks. If you recall, it took a while for the hype of the former to die down and a while for the popularity of the latter to catch fire. Just like it seems the case will be with Goblin Assault.
Ya know what card should be discussed on how aweful it is. Ooze Garden, yes I do realize if you pump the creature and off it with Ooze Garden it stays it's size.. but seriously.. sorcery speed, COME ON! I pulled a foil in my boxes... /cry QQ /wrists BLOODSPRAY!
1) "Untrue. By that logic, Bitterblossom (the sole reason why anyone thinks this card sucks) wouldn't have a home either."
2) I have. However, there have been very few tourneys so far, so all that really matters is testing results. My personal testing says that it's a crappy card when I play against it, and a crappy card when I play with it.
3) If you honestly think that Tokens has a better late game than QnT, I don't think anything I say will convince you otherwise.
4) Who gets to define the intelligent minority? You? Why?
I don't think I'm going to convince you of anything at this point, and you're certainly failing to convince me. Let's just wait and see what happens?
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Ya know what card should be discussed on how aweful it is. Ooze Garden, yes I do realize if you pump the creature and off it with Ooze Garden it stays it's size.. but seriously.. sorcery speed, COME ON! I pulled a foil in my boxes... /cry QQ /wrists BLOODSPRAY!
1) I was explaining why Bitterblossom was good in midrange in response to you claiming it could never fit there if my logic was correct.
2) That's true - however, the quality of the cards glutting up a particular drop, especially 3 or more, has to be extremely high. You haven't shown how GA fits that. If you treat it like that, it's not only competing for a spot against other three drops, but all other cards that could possibly be included in the deck.
3) Ever heard of Tempo? Blightning or Fulminator Mage are really good tempo against QnT. They help make it so you don't get to the point in the game where they draw two cards to your one. They can also screw with iffy or risky hands. Tokens only finishes with persistence against things other than QnT. QnT is just better late game. In fact, the only place I could see GA getting run successfully in the current meta is 2x in the QnT sb, but it has to beat out a lot to get there.
4) "However, we're talking about situations like the one at bar - where the community at large says a card is junk, and a few people who feel strongly about it disagree. In those situations, the majority is usually the one who is wrong."
I could list so many counter examples I'd get carpal tunnel. Instead, I'll just point out that an awful lot of junk cards had a very passionate minority defending them.
And that's really exactly what it is. If people think that Goblin Assault is going to be on the scale of freaking Tarmogoyf or even Bitterblossom, then they need to play another game. Why people get behind such crap cards and crap rares that Wizards throws into sets just to make these same people make fun decks is laughable to me. When I made this thread I was trying to stress in a competetive atmosphere; G t f o this card is TERRIBLE in tokens. THe tokens do not freaking stay around; they die. What? Are you gonna' Torrent or Furystoke 2 Goblin Tokens? YOu might as well have just played Dragon Fodder. That's almost as funny as the Predator Dragon doesn't destroy your tempo and surely won't get destroyed between the declared attacks and blockers step. Surely not. =| Also; People are pairing this crap card to other crap cards that are terrible in our current type 2 enviroment. Bone Splinter, really? Are you serious? And Gravepact is hardly competetive. GA has great synergy with Nantuko Husk (Who should be Gargadon ;-;) and that's one of the few.
The only way I can see GA being competetive is a year from now and when Bitterblossom cycles.
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Goblin Assault is excellent in decks with combat tricks. You want your opponent to be worried that if he blocks a token, his 2/2 creature is going to eat a Giant Growth. Your opponent will have the choice of taking damage or losing creatures, and that's a fine place to put him in.
The problem right now is that there are no competitive decks with a good loadout of combat tricks. Manaplasm is the only one I can think of. G/R Manaplasm with Goblin Assault might have potential. But I think a new deck will have to emerge to show the Assault's true power.
And that deck should not contain a single goblin in it. Goblins are the last things you want to put in a Goblin Assault deck.
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I belieive Rise of the Hobgoblins is a pretty decent card. It's far better than Goblin Assault; period. Why people don't just run that enchantment as a 2 of so you can drop it past turn 6 is beyond me =|. I actually like Rise, tbh.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I know this is the Type 2 forums but this card is amazing with Doubling Season
Seriously though this thread is to discuss whether the card is complete crap or if there is any merit to the card at all. And so far from as much of the discussion that I have read through there is no reason to outright dismiss the card.
Although there is a better option in Bitterblossom for a Mid-Range or Control deck. I have tested both in a deck together and it is a very good card. But without the proper deckbuilding skills this card will fall short of amazing.
So my final analysis of the card is;
1) It is horrible in a Goblin deck.
2) It is NOT Bitterblossom 2.0
3) It can help token strategies. It works well with Husk and Gravepact.
4) If your going to run it you MUST run 4.
5) It won't win a game alone, but with 2 or 3 out it can have a massive impact on the game state.
6) It causes the opponent to take damage OR dedicate a blocker EVERY turn.
So altogether the card is a 7 out of 10 whereas Bitterblossom is a 9 out of 10.
Bitterblossom is Amazing where Goblin Assault is Good.
It just might act as a Bitterblossom 2.0 in block. But this is standard and there are better options. For standard, this is a "build around me card" as opposed to a "play me and win the game card".
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I think the card has a lot of potential, no one knows how to use it correctly yet. I've toyed around with the card, but have yet to come up with anything better than Devour bait.... which that is a fail all on it's own.
I know this is the Type 2 forums but this card is amazing with Doubling Season
Seriously though this thread is to discuss whether the card is complete crap or if there is any merit to the card at all. And so far from as much of the discussion that I have read through there is no reason to outright dismiss the card.
Although there is a better option in Bitterblossom for a Mid-Range or Control deck. I have tested both in a deck together and it is a very good card. But without the proper deckbuilding skills this card will fall short of amazing.
So my final analysis of the card is;
1) It is horrible in a Goblin deck.
2) It is NOT Bitterblossom 2.0
3) It can help token strategies. It works well with Husk and Gravepact.
4) If your going to run it you MUST run 4.
5) It won't win a game alone, but with 2 or 3 out it can have a massive impact on the game state.
6) It causes the opponent to take damage OR dedicate a blocker EVERY turn.
So altogether the card is a 7 out of 10 whereas Bitterblossom is a 9 out of 10.
Bitterblossom is Amazing where Goblin Assault is Good.
Bitterblossom can and does win the game alone, though. Goblin Assault doesn't deserve standard play with Bitterblossom around. When Blossom cycles, then MAYBE that card will start to matter, but in our current T2 enviroment there's no room for cards that aren't fast, have card advantage, and when you play them the flavor text reads "You win the game." =\
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Bitterblossom can and does win the game alone, though.
Yes it does and it can lose you the game all on it's own too. GA doesn't have that kind of drawback if it is played in a deck other than a goblin deck. But it can win a game with some help... like the 99% of the rest of the cards in MtG.
Goblin Assault doesn't deserve standard play with Bitterblossom around.
With that logic no other green creature should have been played in pre-shards standard just because of Tarmogoyf. Seriously just because another card has similar effects doesn't mean that another card has no spot in the environment. This card could be gold in a deck that already uses Bitterblossom (and I think it is because I have tested just such a deck to a 75% win ratio over two of the top decks in Type 2).
When Blossom cycles, then MAYBE that card will start to matter,
I think with such bold statements on the future of the MtG environments you should change your user-name to Nostradomis (sp?) because it seems you can see into the future.
in our current T2 enviroment there's no room for cards that aren't fast,[/qoute]
Take that Cryptic Command, Oona, Corrupt, Profane Command... etc... etc...
[quote]in our current T2 enviroment there's no room for cards that aren't card advantage,
Take that Broodmate Dragon, Thoughtseize, Incinerate, Nameless Inversion, Imperious Perfect, Treetop Village... etc... etc...
in our current T2 enviroment there's no room for cards that when you play them the flavor text reads "You win the game." =\
Well what I think you meant here is that there is no room in our T2 environment for cards that don't win you the game as soon as they're played.... Uh huh, well then maybe I should throw away EVERY CARD I OWN.
And that's really exactly what it is. If people think that Goblin Assault is going to be on the scale of freaking Tarmogoyf or even Bitterblossom, then they need to play another game. Why people get behind such crap cards and crap rares that Wizards throws into sets just to make these same people make fun decks is laughable to me. When I made this thread I was trying to stress in a competetive atmosphere; G t f o this card is TERRIBLE in tokens. THe tokens do not freaking stay around; they die. What? Are you gonna' Torrent or Furystoke 2 Goblin Tokens? YOu might as well have just played Dragon Fodder. That's almost as funny as the Predator Dragon doesn't destroy your tempo and surely won't get destroyed between the declared attacks and blockers step. Surely not. =| Also; People are pairing this crap card to other crap cards that are terrible in our current type 2 enviroment. Bone Splinter, really? Are you serious? And Gravepact is hardly competetive. GA has great synergy with Nantuko Husk (Who should be Gargadon ;-;) and that's one of the few.
The only way I can see GA being competetive is a year from now and when Bitterblossom cycles.
Three words: One Track Mind.
Torrent of Souls and Furystoke Giant are not the only way to play tokens. Dragon Fodder and Marsh Flitter are not the only way to play tokens. In fact, the only reason token swarm decks even run Bitterblossom (an enchantment that gives you 1/1 tokens that you can't even attack with until turn 4) is because the card is so over the curve in other decks that it can't outrace its own legend.
Talk to the people that were playing the Mogg War Marshall Furystoke token build when Toast hit the meta. The deck scoops to Wrath of God Faerie decks using Bitterblossom doesn't.
What's so funny is that the answer should be right in front of your face. Faeries uses Bitterblossom better than any other deck. If you could find a deck that uses Goblin Assault like faeries uses Bitterblossom you would change your tune. Let me give you a hint, the reason Bitterblossom works so well in Faeries isn't because they're faerie tokens. It's because Faeries is a CONTROL deck based on inevitability. Bitterblossom works even when the Faeries player doesn't even draw Spellstutter Sprite. So, thinking of Goblin Assault in terms of the run-of-the-mill Goblin deck will lead you to the conclusion that it sucks.
In either case, Goblins or Torrent, this card sucks. But the problem isn't the card, it's the one track mind of the players trying to just slide it into existing decks.
Torrent of Souls and Furystoke Giant are not the only way to play tokens. Dragon Fodder and Marsh Flitter are not the only way to play tokens. In fact, the only reason token swarm decks even run Bitterblossom (an enchantment that gives you 1/1 tokens that you can't even attack with until turn 4) is because the card is so over the curve in other decks that it can't outrace its own legend.
Talk to the people that were playing the Mogg War Marshall Furystoke token build when Toast hit the meta. The deck scoops to Wrath of God Faerie decks using Bitterblossom doesn't.
What's so funny is that the answer should be right in front of your face. Faeries uses Bitterblossom better than any other deck. If you could find a deck that uses Goblin Assault like faeries uses Bitterblossom you would change your tune. Let me give you a hint, the reason Bitterblossom works so well in Faeries isn't because they're faerie tokens. It's because Faeries is a CONTROL deck based on inevitability. Bitterblossom works even when the Faeries player doesn't even draw Spellstutter Sprite. So, thinking of Goblin Assault in terms of the run-of-the-mill Goblin deck will lead you to the conclusion that it sucks.
In either case, Goblins or Torrent, this card sucks. But the problem isn't the card, it's the one track mind of the players trying to just slide it into existing decks.
Goblin Assault is really bad for control decks ontop of that.
@XXTalonXX: If you want to justify that the card is bad by throwing insults at me, then go right ahead. I'm really not too worried about someone's opinion on a message board. I'll admit that when you first pick up Goblin Assault that it seems like a really great card and then you get deck ideas for it but then you actually read the card and it all comes crashing down about how BAD it is. I'm not saying that everybody should run the same thing, but when you're paying three for an enchantment that is a bad version of a current enchantment that costs 2 you're not doing your best to win at this game. As of right now there's very little reason this card should ever even see play. Sarkhan Vol was the major thing with this card when people first seen it, but not even Sarkhan Vol is all that damn hot. Garruk beats him out in speed and all over playability, so there's really no reason to run Sarkhan right now either, especially since the format is so control dominated. Jesus, we can rename this thread to "Why this card won't see play until Lorowyn block rotates".
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I'm not going to sit here and say Goblin Assault is going to storm the meta, but I have found that it can be effective in the right application. The right application means with cards dedicated to backing it up. As a 4-of with a 4-of on bitterblossom, and a 4-of of Sarkhan Vol or Elspeth, it can be good. The pressure from a swarms of 2/2s (or 4/4 flyers if you choose elspeth) every turn can be pretty backbreaking, and more or less allows you to use the entire rest of your hand to protect the Sarkhan With burn or enchantment (O-Ring) hate. Is this fragile? Yes, but if assembled it wreaks havoc on control, and can outclass aggro (but if your meta is like mine, nobody plays aggro anymore unless it's revenge.)
I'm not defending GA as an amazing card, but like Bitterblossom has become in the face of a faster (in terms of the other aggro builds) meta, it's a good card in the right application.
Goblin Assault is really bad for control decks ontop of that.
@XXTalonXX: If you want to justify that the card is bad by throwing insults at me, then go right ahead. I'm really not too worried about someone's opinion on a message board. I'll admit that when you first pick up Goblin Assault that it seems like a really great card and then you get deck ideas for it but then you actually read the card and it all comes crashing down about how BAD it is. I'm not saying that everybody should run the same thing, but when you're paying three for an enchantment that is a bad version of a current enchantment that costs 2 you're not doing your best to win at this game. As of right now there's very little reason this card should ever even see play. Sarkhan Vol was the major thing with this card when people first seen it, but not even Sarkhan Vol is all that damn hot. Garruk beats him out in speed and all over playability, so there's really no reason to run Sarkhan right now either, especially since the format is so control dominated. Jesus, we can rename this thread to "Why this card won't see play until Lorowyn block rotates".
First off, get of your high horse. Second I never insulted you I broke down your quote so that I could counter your statements. Third if you don't care about other peoples opinions and your going to be close-minded and refuse to think-outside-the box then your in the wrong forums. So don't lash out at me when I prove you wrong and twist your words so that you can see how ridiculous (sp?) they sound.
wrath of god
goblin assault
rule of law
with the rule of law and a couple of goblin assaults out, you can decimate the opponents side of the board and the the tokens come crawling in
Building
:symw:Mono White Defence:symw:
1) For the last time, no one is making the argument that Goblin Assault = Bitterblossom. Stop regurgitating that strawman.
2) Husk and Thrinax being better in tokens. That's like saying Bitterblossom sucks because Tarmogoyf is "better in the 2 slot". Good token decks don't run 8x 1cc, 8x 2cc, 8x 3cc - they just don't. Good token decks run the glut of their cards at 2cc and 3cc. There's plenty of room there.
3) As for Fulminator Mage and Blightning being better in the Tokens vs. Toast MU, your lack of experience betrays you. Decks that are designed to present unorthodox threats (threats that don't bow down to Wrath) never run Stone Rain. Toast runs 26 land and plenty of card drawing. Also, Blightning is equally bad. In Tokens, Toast will usually see two cards to your one each game, so effectively you just paid 1BR for a cantrip Lava Spike - which is out of place. Blightning is good in decks that can finish before the control opponent recoups his lost cards - tokens can't. Tokens finish with persistence and inevitability, two things that Goblin Assault helps achieve and preserve.
4) The magic community usually getting things right. Sure, it's right about Cylian Elf. Most of the cards in a set are common, and the community usually pinpoints common constructed playables from unplayables pretty well. So, in that respect only, the community is usually right (notwithstanding Sakura-Tribe Elder, Wild Mongrel, Mystical Teachings and plenty of others that the community initially dismissed). However, we're talking about situations like the one at bar - where the community at large says a card is junk, and a few people who feel strongly about it disagree. In those situations, the majority is usually the one who is wrong (Tarmogoyf, Bitterblossom, Arcbound Ravager, Dark Confidant, Pithing Needle and the list is endless). These cards usually start off at $5'ish when the set is realeased. Goblin Assault is not going to break a format with Bitterblossom in it, but these same people feel strongly about it beyond the usual "it's a fun card" comment. Brains really are in short supply in the community.
1) I was explaining why Bitterblossom was good in midrange in response to you claiming it could never fit there if my logic was correct.
2) That's true - however, the quality of the cards glutting up a particular drop, especially 3 or more, has to be extremely high. You haven't shown how GA fits that. If you treat it like that, it's not only competing for a spot against other three drops, but all other cards that could possibly be included in the deck.
3) Ever heard of Tempo? Blightning or Fulminator Mage are really good tempo against QnT. They help make it so you don't get to the point in the game where they draw two cards to your one. They can also screw with iffy or risky hands. Tokens only finishes with persistence against things other than QnT. QnT is just better late game. In fact, the only place I could see GA getting run successfully in the current meta is 2x in the QnT sb, but it has to beat out a lot to get there.
4) "However, we're talking about situations like the one at bar - where the community at large says a card is junk, and a few people who feel strongly about it disagree. In those situations, the majority is usually the one who is wrong."
I could list so many counter examples I'd get carpal tunnel. Instead, I'll just point out that an awful lot of junk cards had a very passionate minority defending them.
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1) I said Bitterblossom was ONLY good in mid-range to control. That was to show the people saying that Goblin Assault was bad in aggro that the point was irrelevant. It was a misunderstanding.
2) GA fits well in the 3 slot of tokens. Research decklists.
3) My post explained why "Tempo" wasn't an objective of the Token strategy at all. QnT is not better late game. That's just lemming talk.
4) The counterexamples available don't fit the bill. I'm saying that whenever the intelligent minority defends a card, they're usually right. I actually mentioned some a few cards above that you would probably use in a counterexample. If you recall, cards like Circu, Dimir Lobotomist and Gaddock Teeg were actually touted by the unintelligent majority while the experienced got behind cards like Firemane Angel and Cloudthresher in those blocks. If you recall, it took a while for the hype of the former to die down and a while for the popularity of the latter to catch fire. Just like it seems the case will be with Goblin Assault.
2) I have. However, there have been very few tourneys so far, so all that really matters is testing results. My personal testing says that it's a crappy card when I play against it, and a crappy card when I play with it.
3) If you honestly think that Tokens has a better late game than QnT, I don't think anything I say will convince you otherwise.
4) Who gets to define the intelligent minority? You? Why?
I don't think I'm going to convince you of anything at this point, and you're certainly failing to convince me. Let's just wait and see what happens?
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Blightning is in no way, shape, or form tempo. If anything, it is negative tempo because it takes up your turn while not effecting the board.
Unearth, Threaten, Heat Shimmer, tapped/pacified, CITP effects (Soul Warden).
It's not that bad
And that's really exactly what it is. If people think that Goblin Assault is going to be on the scale of freaking Tarmogoyf or even Bitterblossom, then they need to play another game. Why people get behind such crap cards and crap rares that Wizards throws into sets just to make these same people make fun decks is laughable to me. When I made this thread I was trying to stress in a competetive atmosphere; G t f o this card is TERRIBLE in tokens. THe tokens do not freaking stay around; they die. What? Are you gonna' Torrent or Furystoke 2 Goblin Tokens? YOu might as well have just played Dragon Fodder. That's almost as funny as the Predator Dragon doesn't destroy your tempo and surely won't get destroyed between the declared attacks and blockers step. Surely not. =| Also; People are pairing this crap card to other crap cards that are terrible in our current type 2 enviroment. Bone Splinter, really? Are you serious? And Gravepact is hardly competetive. GA has great synergy with Nantuko Husk (Who should be Gargadon ;-;) and that's one of the few.
The only way I can see GA being competetive is a year from now and when Bitterblossom cycles.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
The problem right now is that there are no competitive decks with a good loadout of combat tricks. Manaplasm is the only one I can think of. G/R Manaplasm with Goblin Assault might have potential. But I think a new deck will have to emerge to show the Assault's true power.
And that deck should not contain a single goblin in it. Goblins are the last things you want to put in a Goblin Assault deck.
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
To me it looks good.
I belieive Rise of the Hobgoblins is a pretty decent card. It's far better than Goblin Assault; period. Why people don't just run that enchantment as a 2 of so you can drop it past turn 6 is beyond me =|. I actually like Rise, tbh.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Eh. If you're going to pair it with a big, dumb creature, Archdemon of Unx is a better choice.
But that's never going to be competitive. Pairing it with a combat trick heavy aggro deck might be good enough to take a few tournaments.
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
Seriously though this thread is to discuss whether the card is complete crap or if there is any merit to the card at all. And so far from as much of the discussion that I have read through there is no reason to outright dismiss the card.
Although there is a better option in Bitterblossom for a Mid-Range or Control deck. I have tested both in a deck together and it is a very good card. But without the proper deckbuilding skills this card will fall short of amazing.
So my final analysis of the card is;
1) It is horrible in a Goblin deck.
2) It is NOT Bitterblossom 2.0
3) It can help token strategies. It works well with Husk and Gravepact.
4) If your going to run it you MUST run 4.
5) It won't win a game alone, but with 2 or 3 out it can have a massive impact on the game state.
6) It causes the opponent to take damage OR dedicate a blocker EVERY turn.
So altogether the card is a 7 out of 10 whereas Bitterblossom is a 9 out of 10.
Bitterblossom is Amazing where Goblin Assault is Good.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186
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Bitterblossom can and does win the game alone, though. Goblin Assault doesn't deserve standard play with Bitterblossom around. When Blossom cycles, then MAYBE that card will start to matter, but in our current T2 enviroment there's no room for cards that aren't fast, have card advantage, and when you play them the flavor text reads "You win the game." =\
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Yes it does and it can lose you the game all on it's own too. GA doesn't have that kind of drawback if it is played in a deck other than a goblin deck. But it can win a game with some help... like the 99% of the rest of the cards in MtG.
With that logic no other green creature should have been played in pre-shards standard just because of Tarmogoyf. Seriously just because another card has similar effects doesn't mean that another card has no spot in the environment. This card could be gold in a deck that already uses Bitterblossom (and I think it is because I have tested just such a deck to a 75% win ratio over two of the top decks in Type 2).
I think with such bold statements on the future of the MtG environments you should change your user-name to Nostradomis (sp?) because it seems you can see into the future.
Take that Broodmate Dragon, Thoughtseize, Incinerate, Nameless Inversion, Imperious Perfect, Treetop Village... etc... etc...
Well what I think you meant here is that there is no room in our T2 environment for cards that don't win you the game as soon as they're played.... Uh huh, well then maybe I should throw away EVERY CARD I OWN.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186
Changeling Titan Seems decent as well in R/G
Also to the above, how is Broodmate Dragon not CA?
Three words: One Track Mind.
Torrent of Souls and Furystoke Giant are not the only way to play tokens. Dragon Fodder and Marsh Flitter are not the only way to play tokens. In fact, the only reason token swarm decks even run Bitterblossom (an enchantment that gives you 1/1 tokens that you can't even attack with until turn 4) is because the card is so over the curve in other decks that it can't outrace its own legend.
Talk to the people that were playing the Mogg War Marshall Furystoke token build when Toast hit the meta. The deck scoops to Wrath of God Faerie decks using Bitterblossom doesn't.
What's so funny is that the answer should be right in front of your face. Faeries uses Bitterblossom better than any other deck. If you could find a deck that uses Goblin Assault like faeries uses Bitterblossom you would change your tune. Let me give you a hint, the reason Bitterblossom works so well in Faeries isn't because they're faerie tokens. It's because Faeries is a CONTROL deck based on inevitability. Bitterblossom works even when the Faeries player doesn't even draw Spellstutter Sprite. So, thinking of Goblin Assault in terms of the run-of-the-mill Goblin deck will lead you to the conclusion that it sucks.
In either case, Goblins or Torrent, this card sucks. But the problem isn't the card, it's the one track mind of the players trying to just slide it into existing decks.
Goblin Assault is really bad for control decks ontop of that.
@XXTalonXX: If you want to justify that the card is bad by throwing insults at me, then go right ahead. I'm really not too worried about someone's opinion on a message board. I'll admit that when you first pick up Goblin Assault that it seems like a really great card and then you get deck ideas for it but then you actually read the card and it all comes crashing down about how BAD it is. I'm not saying that everybody should run the same thing, but when you're paying three for an enchantment that is a bad version of a current enchantment that costs 2 you're not doing your best to win at this game. As of right now there's very little reason this card should ever even see play. Sarkhan Vol was the major thing with this card when people first seen it, but not even Sarkhan Vol is all that damn hot. Garruk beats him out in speed and all over playability, so there's really no reason to run Sarkhan right now either, especially since the format is so control dominated. Jesus, we can rename this thread to "Why this card won't see play until Lorowyn block rotates".
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I'm not defending GA as an amazing card, but like Bitterblossom has become in the face of a faster (in terms of the other aggro builds) meta, it's a good card in the right application.
First off, get of your high horse. Second I never insulted you I broke down your quote so that I could counter your statements. Third if you don't care about other peoples opinions and your going to be close-minded and refuse to think-outside-the box then your in the wrong forums. So don't lash out at me when I prove you wrong and twist your words so that you can see how ridiculous (sp?) they sound.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186