Alright I'm building an Esper control deck, similar to Reveilark, and a friend of mine is running Ajani we both started running Archons as a fairly cost efficent bad guys who can nail anything.
However the Life Swing can be huge in any control deck. Playing a Finks followed up by a Battlegrace gives you
2 for finks in play
4 more for a swing with the finks
6 life gain is nothing to sneeze at in the format, not that I'm saying life gain is huge right now, it would just give both decks a little breathing room.
I'm inclined to say Archon, just because board position matters a lot, usually more so than life gain. Whereas Battlegrace may eat a Terror or Shriekmaw without giving you anything back, Archon will at least remove your opponent's most problematic permanent. Besides, Finks is usually enough lifegain anyway, unless your playing a dedicated aggro/burn deck like RDW.
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I play a U/W/B control deck and Battlegrace Angel is far superior. Even before the angel existed, Archon of Justice just didn't cut it, and Serra Avenger was the beater of choice (And Oona, of course)
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I'm going to go with the Angel here. Unless you're abusing the archon through reanimation tricks (Mannequin, etc.) the Angel does more for you than the archon.
Archon is much better in my experience, as it punishes an opponent for making an optimal choice (killing your creature).
Battlegrace is nice, but the fact that it doesn't get lifelink on defense makes it too weak to see much play.
Angel is better as a finisher. You establish control than drop her, and beat the crap out of your opponent. Angel works great with another beater, eg another angel. Angle's weakness is that if you drop her too early, or when your board is not secure, it's a waste of a good finisher.
Archon on the other hand, plays the role of a stabalizer (for lack of better word). YOu drop him to force your opponent to remove him, resulting in the lost of one of his permanents (most of the time). Archon works great with reanimation tricks such as mannequin, profane command etc. Archons weakness is GY hate, or removal like O-ring or unmake, or another archon.
So Angel = finsher
Archon = stabalizer (for lack of better word)
in case ppl mention other cards that are better then these 2: of course there are better finishers and stabalizers available in T2, but we are comparing these 2 cards
Why not run both? Archon is fantastic when your opponent is applying pressure, and Battlegrace is probably the better follow-up to Wrath of God. Archon can get you out of a bad spot, and Battlegrace gets you out of burn range. It all comes down to the situation you're in, and if you can protect Battlegrace at all.
I play a U/W/B control deck and Battlegrace Angel is far superior. Even before the angel existed, Archon of Justice just didn't cut it, and Serra Avenger was the beater of choice (And Oona, of course)
Serra Avenger was not the beater of choice. At all. During TS/LRW standard a total of it looks like three decks ran any, all of those were at lower level tournaments, and only one was top 4. EDIT: well, at least during 2008 that is.
And its not far superior, Archon forces 2 for 1 against a lot of decks, and is a threat that they often do not want to kill, making him useful.
With the mana base I'm running, Thoughtseize, etc. I'm very viable to burn. I've contemplated Punish Ignorance is so bad. When I lose its usually by a top deck Flame Javalin, so just a few more points of life would do the trick.
Archon is great for the reasons suggested. Mannequin is crazy, and its a fine beater in its own right.
Battlegrace gives me a high risk, high reward kind of situation. Sure it can bring be back from the brink completely turning the game on its head. Or it eats a terror and thats that.
IMO Battlegrace is much more aggressive (although the lifegain could seem defensive, it still classifies as an offensive card to me since you have to attack to get any benefit), whereas Archon is much more control. The problem here is you are comparing apples to oranges, you have to decide if you want to go more the control or aggro route.
Archon only triggers when it hits the grave. Assuming that Bant Charm, Condemn, Unmake, and Oblivion Rings are all teir 1 removal right now, Archon looks a lot less appealing.
I'm also not sold on Battlegrace. A 4/4 flyer for 5 is pretty boring. 5/5 flying lifelink when attacking (or lending +1/+1 lifelink to any attacker) isn't much better. Any deck paying 5 mana for a creature probably has better finishers in its arsenal. Oona is obviously a choice, but actually, I'd prefer Divinity of Pride any day over the Angel. Always has lifelink, so you can block if need be, and with both Finks and its own lifelink, hitting 25 happens all the time in control mirrors. (and who cares- that's just a bonus) It's also black, so no Shriekmaw, Terror, E. Capsule... (same goes for Oona, who beats all these guys on finisher power)
Reveillark is your 5cc beatstick of choice in your deck. (and similar to Archon in terms of being a pain to remove... better, because it still triggers on RFG or Bottom of Library shenanigans)
Any other finishers you need should complement him, or just be downright fearsome as a finisher, and seeing as you mentioned Esper, I'd assume that if it can't be Oona, you could at least be using Sharuum or something. (CA the moment it's cast)
I play a U/W/B control deck and Battlegrace Angel is far superior. Even before the angel existed, Archon of Justice just didn't cut it, and Serra Avenger was the beater of choice (And Oona, of course)
Far is a HORRIBLE word and you just used it incorrectly. In YOUR current deck build the BGA is better which i have agreed on but AoJ is a better card overall.
Serra Avenger was not the beater of choice. At all. During TS/LRW standard a total of it looks like three decks ran any, all of those were at lower level tournaments, and only one was top 4. EDIT: well, at least during 2008 that is.
And its not far superior, Archon forces 2 for 1 against a lot of decks, and is a threat that they often do not want to kill, making him useful.
Well, right before rotation some UW lists showed up that the Avenger was actually pretty good in. She is not the "beater of choice" but i believe you may underestimate the 3/3 Angel just a tad. She gave (me anyways) surprisingly good results.
I wasn't talking about any particular list. But he said he's running control. I automatically assume Mulldrifter is included since it isn't faeries. From there, I just guessed the rest. Probably just got Toast on the mind, though.
Still, envisioning any sort of WUB Control deck makes me lean towards a handful of cards being involved. And Archon seems better here.
The issue I see with Battlegrace Angel is in that her Exalted ability really isn't that useful in this sort of deck. With Finks, you want to attack with them, yet if you attack with more than one creature, Battlegrace Angel becomes purely worse than Archon of Justice. That, and the fact that you don't seem to have Exalted as a theme of the deck, makes me think that Archon of Justice is most likely the best for this deck.
I'd say Archon of Justice, and run a couple of those horrible Punish Igonrance's you were talking about. I was playing with the card, and it's good. Not CC good, but then again what is? You can totally run 6~7 4 CC counterspells.
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my mouth is full of winsome lies -
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
The issue I see with Battlegrace Angel is in that her Exalted ability really isn't that useful in this sort of deck. With Finks, you want to attack with them, yet if you attack with more than one creature, Battlegrace Angel becomes purely worse than Archon of Justice. That, and the fact that you don't seem to have Exalted as a theme of the deck, makes me think that Archon of Justice is most likely the best for this deck.
The thing is, if your playing a control deck you do not WANT to attack untill you have board control right? So the Battlegrace would be underachieving cause you need the blockers (usually) Thats where i beleive AoJ is better cause it helps you acheive that board control better.
I'd say Archon of Justice, and run a couple of those horrible Punish Igonrance's you were talking about. I was playing with the card, and it's good. Not CC good, but then again what is? You can totally run 6~7 4 CC counterspells.
I wouldn't go that far. I once read someone make this statement(which i agree with).
Punish Ignorance is the best card out of Shards without a home in the current standard!
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However the Life Swing can be huge in any control deck. Playing a Finks followed up by a Battlegrace gives you
2 for finks in play
4 more for a swing with the finks
6 life gain is nothing to sneeze at in the format, not that I'm saying life gain is huge right now, it would just give both decks a little breathing room.
So which is the better 5 drop?
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Battlegrace is nice, but the fact that it doesn't get lifelink on defense makes it too weak to see much play.
Angel is better as a finisher. You establish control than drop her, and beat the crap out of your opponent. Angel works great with another beater, eg another angel. Angle's weakness is that if you drop her too early, or when your board is not secure, it's a waste of a good finisher.
Archon on the other hand, plays the role of a stabalizer (for lack of better word). YOu drop him to force your opponent to remove him, resulting in the lost of one of his permanents (most of the time). Archon works great with reanimation tricks such as mannequin, profane command etc. Archons weakness is GY hate, or removal like O-ring or unmake, or another archon.
So Angel = finsher
Archon = stabalizer (for lack of better word)
in case ppl mention other cards that are better then these 2: of course there are better finishers and stabalizers available in T2, but we are comparing these 2 cards
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Serra Avenger was not the beater of choice. At all. During TS/LRW standard a total of it looks like three decks ran any, all of those were at lower level tournaments, and only one was top 4. EDIT: well, at least during 2008 that is.
And its not far superior, Archon forces 2 for 1 against a lot of decks, and is a threat that they often do not want to kill, making him useful.
With the mana base I'm running, Thoughtseize, etc. I'm very viable to burn. I've contemplated Punish Ignorance is so bad. When I lose its usually by a top deck Flame Javalin, so just a few more points of life would do the trick.
Archon is great for the reasons suggested. Mannequin is crazy, and its a fine beater in its own right.
Battlegrace gives me a high risk, high reward kind of situation. Sure it can bring be back from the brink completely turning the game on its head. Or it eats a terror and thats that.
x2 Battlegrace
Archon is great early-midgame, and Battlegrace is a turn faster clock for the endgame.
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I'm also not sold on Battlegrace. A 4/4 flyer for 5 is pretty boring. 5/5 flying lifelink when attacking (or lending +1/+1 lifelink to any attacker) isn't much better. Any deck paying 5 mana for a creature probably has better finishers in its arsenal. Oona is obviously a choice, but actually, I'd prefer Divinity of Pride any day over the Angel. Always has lifelink, so you can block if need be, and with both Finks and its own lifelink, hitting 25 happens all the time in control mirrors. (and who cares- that's just a bonus) It's also black, so no Shriekmaw, Terror, E. Capsule... (same goes for Oona, who beats all these guys on finisher power)
Reveillark is your 5cc beatstick of choice in your deck. (and similar to Archon in terms of being a pain to remove... better, because it still triggers on RFG or Bottom of Library shenanigans)
Any other finishers you need should complement him, or just be downright fearsome as a finisher, and seeing as you mentioned Esper, I'd assume that if it can't be Oona, you could at least be using Sharuum or something. (CA the moment it's cast)
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And white for Archon of Justice.
Unless you're running a subpar list that Angel will compliment, Archon of Justice is the better choice.
Far is a HORRIBLE word and you just used it incorrectly. In YOUR current deck build the BGA is better which i have agreed on but AoJ is a better card overall.
Well, right before rotation some UW lists showed up that the Avenger was actually pretty good in. She is not the "beater of choice" but i believe you may underestimate the 3/3 Angel just a tad. She gave (me anyways) surprisingly good results.
I will assume you would be talking about the DR.s list? If so, Zero Mulldrifters and Zero Makeshift Mannequins and Zero on the AoJs.
But i must say the list is interesting to say the least but it doesn't any flash to it.
Anyways, by NO means is Battlegrace Angel better then Archon of Justice. Yet, in some lists the Angel is a better choice.
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
I wasn't talking about any particular list. But he said he's running control. I automatically assume Mulldrifter is included since it isn't faeries. From there, I just guessed the rest. Probably just got Toast on the mind, though.
Still, envisioning any sort of WUB Control deck makes me lean towards a handful of cards being involved. And Archon seems better here.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Just sayin'.
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and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
The thing is, if your playing a control deck you do not WANT to attack untill you have board control right? So the Battlegrace would be underachieving cause you need the blockers (usually) Thats where i beleive AoJ is better cause it helps you acheive that board control better.
And with most decks running the mate as their kill of choice...thats saying something ehh?
I wouldn't go that far. I once read someone make this statement(which i agree with).
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent