i dont quite understand why you'd want to have heap doll in there...for the scarecrow?? or even, for that matter, the scarecrone??
i just feel that that space can be better invested elsewhere, like in the death capsule and things like Telling time, Ponder and some such.
Just feels like having the scarecrows is really not necessary.
Decks have been playing the Heap Doll even without Scarecrone. It serves as a cheap artifact for beats, Springleaf Drum, and such while providing a nice benefical effect when sacced.
I don't have all the cards right now since I've only opened about 8 packs or so of Alara + some singles, but I really like what Scarecrone can do in this deck. He provides a draw engine and he reanimates your army by himself. That's a ton of persistant card advantage for just one card.
You can play with 20-21 lands pretty easily. You have stuff like Springleaf Drum and Etherium Sculptor to make everything far easier to cast.
Ok guys, the more and more I try using Salvage Titan, the less effective it is. Having to sac 3 artifacts to bring it into play is a huge investment and you will be ****ed in the face of removal. Boomerang and other bounce wrecks it. It doesn't help it can fall to stuff like Naturalize and other artifact destruction.
Even worse it doesn't have trample. It's not fun when this guy continues to run into 1/1 speedbumps and other chump blockers stopping it short of carving up your opponent's life total.
By focusing more on consistency and a solid aggro build, I think a Titan-less deck can work because he can screw you over so bad.
This looks alot better then salvage titan.dec
How useful are the spring drums tho? Short of getting it with heap doll or sculptor it dosen't do much beside be an artifact. Seems to tilt a bit to the "too situational" side in this type of deck.
@ Shinny Shinny
Heap Doll is an early drop that is needed, makes makeshift mannequin fairly worse, and trades with a decent number of things especially with a master of etherium in play. He gets there.
Even though it's not an Artifact i'd advice to play Figure of Destiny.. just to have some more beatdown.. i actually like the 1st turn off's for Salvage Titan (played nearly the same)
You gotta be kidding me. And I was just cursing my friend about 5 minutes ago. The guy freakin loves FoD and thinks that it can go in any deck.
I've been following this thread since its creation and you guys are finally now about 2 pages of conversation from where I am. So, allow me to aid you just a tiny bit. Lose the blue. Thats right I said lose the blue. What is blue really providing you that red can't? An alternate (unsynergistic) win condition in master of etherium? The main problems we have with the Turn 1 titan is that it gets chump blocked by a lanowar/birds or gets removed on Turn 3. Playing red allows us to make the most of both of these problems. T1 titan can be followed up with a T2 shock to a birds or T2 Incinerate and a swing for 6. Even better then that playing red makes the T3 win all that much easier. Turn 1 Titan. Turn 2 Swing for 6 Shock for 2 or Incinerate for 3. Turn 3 Swing for 6 and then soul fire or consumption for lethal. Granted how unlikely the above example is, it just demonstrates the kind of clock red could add to the deck. We are playing allouttempo.dec AKA nocardadvantage.dec, we might as well be playing the original tempo color.
I find the Red Black version I list above works fairly well. The biggest problem it faces is a turn 3 colossus when its on the draw. Actually, the deck preforms about 35% better when its on the play so that disadvantage alone is brutal. In my version I use Fountain of Youth as opposed to the springleaf drum simply because it gives me 4 extra 0 cost artifacts. I also find the hell's thunder to be insane tech. They usually take at least 6 from the titan (usually 12) and the thunder being able to deal the other 8 with evasion is just insane.
Here is some numbers for you from my random sampling of hands. Out of 1020 hands I drew the titan + the ability to play it on first turn 1 with my original 7 cards, 180 times. That is 17.64% of the time. After mulliganing once (when I did not have the combo) I got it in my 6 card hand 60 times. That is 5.88% of the time. After mulliganing down to 5 (again when I did not have the combo at 6 cards) I got it 30 times. That is 2.94% of the time. 750 times I did not get the titan and the ability to play it in my first 7 (double mulligan) cards. That is 73.52% of the time. Out of the 32 games I've playtested I've gotten the titan 12 times. That is 37.5% of the time. Out of those games I have won 11. That means when my deck succeeds at doing what it's built to do (1st turn titan) it wins 91% of the time. I should also point out the 11 games I've won I've been on the play every time. The one game I lost I was on the draw. Horrbile horrible truths
Edit: I should point out the deck has won only 4 games inwhich I did not get a titan on first turn and has won only 2 in which I did not get a titan within the first 3 turns. That puts my decks current win record at 17/32 53%ish. The matches I have played were all verse T1 deck from pre rotation meta. If that matters to anyone.
Sarf the idea of going red seems real good if your beating tier 1 decks 53% of the time means your on to something. I mean you have tested the crap out of the deck and I thank you for that because I want Titan to work and hope it can, and your definitely off to a good start. (keep up the good work). I am going to try it and see the results for myself, I have already ordered the titans for the deck I just need to test before ordering the Hells thunders again thank you for your unbelievable testing.
Namida, you and I think alike. I came to the conclusion I wasn't playing blue simply because sunken ruins cost me too much. Then the more I play tested it on MWS/Apprentice, the more I liked red. I just honestly believe staying in blue was not worth the two or so maindeck cards we got from it. Those being etherium sculptor, master of etherium. Especially when master of etherium and Salvage titan have a backwards synergy.
Edit: Rei, not to sound insulting or condescending in any way but 53% is not a reliable number in my opinion. It means at best I have an even match with T1 decks as long as I get titan on first turn (which most of us already knew) and the ammount of titans I got out on first turn could be attributed to luck. If I could find my MWS/Apprentice test sheet I could post the 50-60 games I've played on there. I'm not sure the numbers are so in our favor on that sheet. But since I can't find it, it doesn't exist!
Good point Sarf, but again 53% is a start, I mean is this not a new archetype that just came to be recently?? So a start is a start I am not saying that this deck is the nuts, because it definitely is not. Honestly were we expecting to just build something and it just wreck no not at all, but like I said earlier its a good start I was just praising you on decent results luck or not seems promising that you are heading in the right direction.
Heh I'll agree with that. I'll be playing Salvage titan, whether i'm 3-0 or 0-3 will be determined by how much we can problem shoot before I take it to the next FNM (I missed tonight, I'm at work ^^).
I honestly couldn't think of anything better to add to the side outside of pithing needle. it helps our big guy, and it hoses tons of stuff. something I thought was kinda tech was loxodon warhammer, since you can mid to late game drop it for free, and then just equip to the master and swing for alot.
the only thing cryptic does that's hard to replace is the tapping. the tap portion just wins games for an aggressive deck such as this.
Take your monoblack deck, then set aside 14 swamps. Add 4 Creeping Tar Pits, 4 Darkslick Shores, 4 Drowned Catacombs, and 2 Jwar isle Refuge and add 4 Jace, the Mindsculptors. Your monoblack deck is instantly better. Better yet, drop those refuges, throw in some islands and some mana leaks, and lo and behold, you're now playing a real deck. Congratulations. Welcome to the world of competitive M:TG.
Has anyone tried building a control esper titan deck??? The more I play the aggro version the more I think Salvage was made for control builds, there is just not enough cards in Standard to support the Titan as a aggro deck like affinity in extended. I will be trying to build a control deck with cards like esper charm Reveillark and titan and master of etherium stuff like that. More artifacts which can be brought back by Reveillark including Master of etherium.
Sarf- RB list is interesting, my only concern is that it would make the deck worse against QnT(probably the best deck in the format). The UB list isn't great against it but at least it can side in cheap counter like Negate to deal with Condemn and Bant Charm.
Also if you are going red i'd advocate taking the Quicksand's out of the list in favor of more red producing land(to better enable cheap Flame Javelin's), since they were only really in there to give a removal light deck extra removal(something RB doesn't need to worry about).
I'd also advocate using Magma Spray or Puncture Blast(maybe in the sideboard) to deal with Kitchen Finks, which is a major pain in the arse.
The lower number of 1cc artifacts is also probably causing a slight reduction in the number of 1st turn Titan drops.
EDIT: Also I'd recommend using a full playset of Guttural Response's and a playset of Thoughtseize's in the sideboard, as I said earlier QnT is going to be a tough matchup.
i can agree to the agro version of this deck but a few cards can make this effectivly agro and still have a very control oriented backbeat or undertone. the main stay of that is the canonist on turn 2 effectively as a 2/2 can be a beater if not facing any agression, or just a turn or 2 later a tempo stopper for the opponent. while still pumping the master and slowing the play of your opponent or even diverting some hate away from the titan or master. it has a multi purpose i like. and the other card beeing the esper charm although mana fixing intensive instant speed draw 2 once youve dumped your hand, or for a controlling matchup instant speed discard...very good. but overall i really want tezzeret,(in god draw hitting on turn 3) because in a late game a chrom-star or springleaf drum becomming a 5/5 for paying 0 after a sculptor hits play.....seems pretty fantastic. also a card i admire is the scarecrone, draw and graveyard recursion for any creature, neato. But more testing still to come.
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Dubbed "Andrew, of the Legendary EDH Deck"
by mtgcast #138, Thanks guys!
Ya Machius the SB shocks have been turned into magma sprays. As for the 1 cost artifacts I honestly think your ratio's are too high. Think of it this way, the chances of me being able to make a 1st turn titan are about 1/4 as I explained with my random samplings. To be honest I didn't record how many times I ended up with a hand that could drop a 1st turn titan but lacked the titan. I find the quicksands still to be a must, and they are the reason I'm only running 2 flame javs MD. With the way the deck is set up the extra -1 dmg to an attacking creature can make a huge difference. It makes the gouger that would kill my titan, well, not. The gutturals have been made into a full playset in my board, thoughtseize hadn't even crossed my mind, I'll definately start testing it. I'll post an updated list sometime tomorrow along with results. Till then fellow titans, good luck and happy optimizing.
I think what everybody needs to keep in mind is focus. I hear people calling out bitterblossoms and all sorts of control, but that effectively reduces the aggro nature of the deck. I could see maybe some negates sneaking in (if you had room) if only to protect your 4 card investment in salvage titan, but other then that i just don't see the need for any control.
Also has anybody even thought of profane command in here? I mean honestly...you have springleaf drum and imo you should have mindstone meaning that against a non-esper deck you could drain them for X then attack with X unblockable creatures...
this is what i've been goldfishing with on Apprentice for the past week. i agree with the above poster about Negate. i've been using it and it has been able to protect a turn one Salvage Titan or all my creatures from Firespout/Wrath of God. Ponder is there to help me go off turn 2 if i don't get an insane turn 1 hand. Ad Nauseum is a good mid-game refill. i usually invest around 8 life and get a few cards to offset the turn 1 Salvage Titan. and lastly, 18 lands ain't really a problem.
Decks have been playing the Heap Doll even without Scarecrone. It serves as a cheap artifact for beats, Springleaf Drum, and such while providing a nice benefical effect when sacced.
I don't have all the cards right now since I've only opened about 8 packs or so of Alara + some singles, but I really like what Scarecrone can do in this deck. He provides a draw engine and he reanimates your army by himself. That's a ton of persistant card advantage for just one card.
This looks alot better then salvage titan.dec
How useful are the spring drums tho? Short of getting it with heap doll or sculptor it dosen't do much beside be an artifact. Seems to tilt a bit to the "too situational" side in this type of deck.
@ Shinny Shinny
Heap Doll is an early drop that is needed, makes makeshift mannequin fairly worse, and trades with a decent number of things especially with a master of etherium in play. He gets there.
Heres my Version:
4 Sunken Ruins
4 Mutavault
3 Faerie Conclave
3 Swamp
2 Esper Panorama
1 Island
4 Tidehowler Strix
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Scarecrone
4 Master of Etherium
4 Juggernaught
2 Mind Stone
4 Courier's Capsule
4 Agony Warp
2 Sculpting Steel
2 Loxodon Warhammer
4 Tezzerret
2 Mind Stone
2 Negate
3 Flashfreeze
4 Thoughtsieze
You gotta be kidding me. And I was just cursing my friend about 5 minutes ago. The guy freakin loves FoD and thinks that it can go in any deck.
FoD is the new black.
4 Ornithopter
4 Salvage Titan
2 Heap Doll
4 Hell's Thunder
Other Spells
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Chromatic Star
4 Incinerate
4 Sigil of Distinction
4 Soul's Fire
4 Rite of Consumption
2 Flame Javelin
4 Mutavault
4 Sulfurous Springs
4 Graven Cairns
4 Mountain
4 Quicksand
4 Shock
4 Pyroclasm
4 Executioner Capsule
3 Guttural Response
I find the Red Black version I list above works fairly well. The biggest problem it faces is a turn 3 colossus when its on the draw. Actually, the deck preforms about 35% better when its on the play so that disadvantage alone is brutal. In my version I use Fountain of Youth as opposed to the springleaf drum simply because it gives me 4 extra 0 cost artifacts. I also find the hell's thunder to be insane tech. They usually take at least 6 from the titan (usually 12) and the thunder being able to deal the other 8 with evasion is just insane.
Here is some numbers for you from my random sampling of hands. Out of 1020 hands I drew the titan + the ability to play it on first turn 1 with my original 7 cards, 180 times. That is 17.64% of the time. After mulliganing once (when I did not have the combo) I got it in my 6 card hand 60 times. That is 5.88% of the time. After mulliganing down to 5 (again when I did not have the combo at 6 cards) I got it 30 times. That is 2.94% of the time. 750 times I did not get the titan and the ability to play it in my first 7 (double mulligan) cards. That is 73.52% of the time. Out of the 32 games I've playtested I've gotten the titan 12 times. That is 37.5% of the time. Out of those games I have won 11. That means when my deck succeeds at doing what it's built to do (1st turn titan) it wins 91% of the time. I should also point out the 11 games I've won I've been on the play every time. The one game I lost I was on the draw. Horrbile horrible truths
Edit: I should point out the deck has won only 4 games inwhich I did not get a titan on first turn and has won only 2 in which I did not get a titan within the first 3 turns. That puts my decks current win record at 17/32 53%ish. The matches I have played were all verse T1 deck from pre rotation meta. If that matters to anyone.
GWGreen White ControlWG
I'm not sure if it should be Shaffinity or A la Finity.
GWGreen White ControlWG
Sunken Ruins-$12
Graven Cairns-$4
I love it.
Edit: Rei, not to sound insulting or condescending in any way but 53% is not a reliable number in my opinion. It means at best I have an even match with T1 decks as long as I get titan on first turn (which most of us already knew) and the ammount of titans I got out on first turn could be attributed to luck. If I could find my MWS/Apprentice test sheet I could post the 50-60 games I've played on there. I'm not sure the numbers are so in our favor on that sheet. But since I can't find it, it doesn't exist!
GWGreen White ControlWG
GWGreen White ControlWG
4 Mystic Gate
4 Adarkar Wastes
3 Wanderwine Hub
7 Island
4 Plains
Creatures
3 Heap Doll
2 Ornithopter
2 Bottle Gnomes
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Master of Etherium
4 Etherium Sculpter
4 Juggernaut
3 Mind Stone
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Scourglass
3 Cryptic Command (entirely switchable with Punish Ignorance or Hindering Light for this deck)
4 Chromatic Star
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Pithing Needle
3 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Scourglass
1 Bottle Gnomes
3 Cauldron Haze
3 Dispeller's Capsule
I honestly couldn't think of anything better to add to the side outside of pithing needle. it helps our big guy, and it hoses tons of stuff. something I thought was kinda tech was loxodon warhammer, since you can mid to late game drop it for free, and then just equip to the master and swing for alot.
the only thing cryptic does that's hard to replace is the tapping. the tap portion just wins games for an aggressive deck such as this.
Also if you are going red i'd advocate taking the Quicksand's out of the list in favor of more red producing land(to better enable cheap Flame Javelin's), since they were only really in there to give a removal light deck extra removal(something RB doesn't need to worry about).
I'd also advocate using Magma Spray or Puncture Blast(maybe in the sideboard) to deal with Kitchen Finks, which is a major pain in the arse.
The lower number of 1cc artifacts is also probably causing a slight reduction in the number of 1st turn Titan drops.
EDIT: Also I'd recommend using a full playset of Guttural Response's and a playset of Thoughtseize's in the sideboard, as I said earlier QnT is going to be a tough matchup.
Machius proudly supports R_E's right to Rumour!
and look around every once and a while you could miss it. - ferris bueller
~Albert Einstein~
Dubbed "Andrew, of the Legendary EDH Deck"
by mtgcast #138, Thanks guys!
GWGreen White ControlWG
Agreed.
cut juggernaught for punish ignorance
how bout esper charm and capsules?
Also has anybody even thought of profane command in here? I mean honestly...you have springleaf drum and imo you should have mindstone meaning that against a non-esper deck you could drain them for X then attack with X unblockable creatures...
Thanks to SpiderBoy4 @ High~Light Studios
4 Heap Doll
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Master of Etherium
3 Salvage Titan
2 Juggernaut
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Sigil of Distinction
3 Sculpting Steel
3 Nameless Inversion
2 Ponder
2 Negate
2 Ad Nauseum
2 Swamp
3 Underground River
3 Adarkar Wastes
3 Sunken Ruins
3 Mystic Gate
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Loxodon Warhammer
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Deathmark
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bottle Gnomes
Esper Charms and Capsules fit better in midrange decks. If you want to check out a few, go to the "Budget Esper" thread in Decks for Critique.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW