Wasn't the main reason Smuggler's Copter was banned was that it could be a 4 of in legit any deck that played creatures? Now we have a card pushing 60 dollars that can be a 4 of in every single standard deck if you want to play it. I realize it will come down some, but 200 some odd dollar playset of anything should not be a thing in standard. If anyone is actually paying close to 500 dollars for standard I implore you just play a different format. You can buy good modern decks for that price.
I wouldn't say any deck since red decks rather play Chandra and UW Control doesn't really need it. It's really good, but it's definitely going to lose value once Kaladesh is gone.
Karn temporarily broke the format because there exists a critical mass of playable artifacts from Kaladesh. It's currently running roughshod over the format and isn't going to stop until Kaladesh rotates, but it will fade back into second-rate status very quickly afterward.
The value is probably going to stay there because he has become a modern staple, so don't expect him to tank much and he'll definitely be one of those cards that goes up more the longer the set is out of print.
The value is probably going to stay there because he has become a modern staple, so don't expect him to tank much and he'll definitely be one of those cards that goes up more the longer the set is out of print.
I have heard its getting Vintage and Legacy testing. Karn, two cards and two powerhouses.
Karn's power is subtle. He can be played early because of his colorless cost, his -2 is basically master of etherium tokens (which was a pretty solid beater in modern), if he pluses into draw he is hard to kill, he can't be hit by abrupt decay which is arguably the most common removal I've seen played. He nickel and dimes people with value, and has potential to run away with a game using those tokens.
Karn's power is subtle. He can be played early because of his colorless cost, his -2 is basically master of etherium tokens (which was a pretty solid beater in modern), if he pluses into draw he is hard to kill, he can't be hit by abrupt decay which is arguably the most common removal I've seen played. He nickel and dimes people with value, and has potential to run away with a game using those tokens.
As I understand it, boxes will be opened until the value inside equals the cost. Currently, boxes hold too much value and will go down. So either Karn goes down or everything else does. If Karn subsidizes Teferi, Lyra, History, Shalai, Chainwhirler and Champion for all of us, that is not the worst thing.
Karn seems like a generically good card to me that is particularly good with artifacts. I think that as the format shakes out, most non-artifact decks will find better cards to replace them, reducing demand. In all formats, if Karn is good, answers will make Karn worse, also reducing demand.
I've yet to have a karn resolved against me that was actually the threat I needed to remove from the table. It's increments advantage has been less punishing than Chandra and he doesn't build to a gain ending ult while doing it.
People are still testing what works in standard and he's particularly good with heart of kiran, this won't be a 2 year issue it'll be a 5 month issue until rotation.
The price is An issue of any tournament level playable card; it's a product of the volume of middle men, the competitive scene, scarcity by wizards, and the value people place on entertainment. Considering how strong Lyra, teferi, mox, history of benalia or chainwhirler are and how good the uncommons are he'll go down. To the point where a box is break even value on average if you break it down.
Compare to JtMS in worldwake during standard, where the boxes were Jace or bust because that deck had over 50% of the format.
I'm glad they didn't tack removal on him, because you can still kill his token and eat his face if you need to unlike Chandra who immediately removed the biggest threat by the time she landed.
When they built this version of Karn they balanced him extremely well, actually. Everyone is going "lets put him in everything for CA!", but he's a bad choice for a lot of decks. If someone plays Karn they aren't using both modes: They are either using his card draw mode or they are using his -2 mode to make a construct token. While he's good at drawing cards to keep games going, if someone has access to blue, blue draw is still superior to karns delayed version.
The deck in standard that gets the most out of him is BW vehicles, since it gives the mid-range deck the late-game card advantage to hopefully close out against control decks while making tokens that can potentially go over a Torrential Gearhulk. The one problem is that Lyra Dawnbringer is game ending in a lot of match ups and the traditional 4/4 flying vehicle of choice just isn't going to cut it anymore. Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp has sort of become a go-to card for dealing with Lyra since it can swing into a lyra and live. That's better than the vast majority of the format right now at the cheap cost of 4 mana.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
His draw value is really why I play him in my decks. Other formats it's largely for his -2 and that's where his value is really coming from. Standard he is good, but not the best, he's just able to slot into pretty much anything. He doesn't take over the game as soon as he lands.
I´m chiming in as a player who considered picking up a standard deck, but ultimately opted out because of the price and ubiquity of Karn. I strongly dislike feeling like I´m playing a budget/non-optimal list, and it seems like I have the choice of either doing that or dishing out an unreasonable amount on an insanely inflated card that´s bound to crash eventually. I know that buying singles that will go down in value is part of the format, but this is just too much. I actually started to scrape a white aggro deck together, I even have the playset of History, but now I´m going to feel like I´m playing a loser´s version of WB Vehicles, and there´s no way I´m buying into a $650 Standard deck. I could consider GB Constrictor, but I guess it´s just a matter of time before people figure out that Karn is good there too. So I´m giving it a pass and I´m selling the Standard relevant cards I have.
I´m convinced that Karn hurts the format. I can´t possibly be the only one who was tempted to get into Standard, then looked at the top decks and the prices and went "heeell no".
I´m chiming in as a player who considered picking up a standard deck, but ultimately opted out because of the price and ubiquity of Karn. I strongly dislike feeling like I´m playing a budget/non-optimal list, and it seems like I have the choice of either doing that or dishing out an unreasonable amount on an insanely inflated card that´s bound to crash eventually. I know that buying singles that will go down in value is part of the format, but this is just too much. I actually started to scrape a white aggro deck together, I even have the playset of History, but now I´m going to feel like I´m playing a loser´s version of WB Vehicles, and there´s no way I´m buying into a $650 Standard deck. I could consider GB Constrictor, but I guess it´s just a matter of time before people figure out that Karn is good there too. So I´m giving it a pass and I´m selling the Standard relevant cards I have.
I´m convinced that Karn hurts the format. I can´t possibly be the only one who was tempted to get into Standard, then looked at the top decks and the prices and went "heeell no".
G/B Constrictor decks are very fun to play, but may be a bad time putting money into since most of the key components all rotate out soon
It's my favourite deck, so I'll be sad to see it go.
This is a very interesting discussion on what makes a standard "Ban-able" good card.
Karn is a quality good card that is going in a lot of decks. He's costed reasonably and get high usage but not "Broken from power. The mythic leads to high price.
Smugglers Copter was a quality good card that went in ALMOST all decks due to cheap costing. Nothing it did was broken. Smugglers copter went to $20 due to being a rare with very high demand.
The problem with copter was that it was in the set BEFORE Fatal Push and limited removal at it's timeframe.
If Wizards is going to continue to be aggressive with banning cards in Standard because they have high meta-game saturation, Karn is probably a target. Otherwise, free Copter since it's not broken, just popular.
I´m chiming in as a player who considered picking up a standard deck, but ultimately opted out because of the price and ubiquity of Karn. I strongly dislike feeling like I´m playing a budget/non-optimal list, and it seems like I have the choice of either doing that or dishing out an unreasonable amount on an insanely inflated card that´s bound to crash eventually. I know that buying singles that will go down in value is part of the format, but this is just too much. I actually started to scrape a white aggro deck together, I even have the playset of History, but now I´m going to feel like I´m playing a loser´s version of WB Vehicles, and there´s no way I´m buying into a $650 Standard deck. I could consider GB Constrictor, but I guess it´s just a matter of time before people figure out that Karn is good there too. So I´m giving it a pass and I´m selling the Standard relevant cards I have.
I´m convinced that Karn hurts the format. I can´t possibly be the only one who was tempted to get into Standard, then looked at the top decks and the prices and went "heeell no".
THIS is what the problem is. It's not just a 4 cost 6 (+1 unless exiled immediately) loyalty plains walker that starts with value and continues to generate it.
It's the fact that right now standard is decimated. FNM barely fires in many places (even if your LGS is doing fine think big picture) and they print a card that CAN go in any deck and generate value. Is it optimized for every deck? No. Does it function in every deck? Yes. How many decks are answering T4 6 loyalty? Even if you do, they play another, still value. Paying attention to the 'artifacts matter' portion of the -2 is shallow. The +1 and needing to deal with 6 loyalty is the power. Sure Vehicles or RDW can just plow through and ignore him, but the fact is we have a card that is $70 bucks in a standard that needs more players. There was plenty of problem with the cost of standard with 20-25 dollar premium mythics before this. Now this bank busting price tag (doesn't matter if it EVENTUALLY drops) is making people refuse to play standard.
Karn does hurt an already bleeding and ragged format. The Kaladesh dumpster fire is still harming the format but all will not get better after it rotates and I guarantee Karn will NOT lose his luster as much as people think with Kaladesh rotation. After 2 years of stomping on their own game and driving people away from standard they need to be much smarter than this and proactively take action to make standard less expensive not more. They're doing nothing there, and they're doing nothing to attract people to the format. (The Challenger decks are not a hit but a total whiff)
I try new brews every week, and people are overwhining on Karn. He's great, don't get me wrong, but often times playing him in turn four or five costs you the game against aggro. Monored and any of the current Vehicles lists couldn't really care less. If you don't stabilize the board, or at the very least slow it down before dropping Karn, he isn't going to help you. If you are dead on board turn four, Karn won't help much.
I try new brews every week, and people are overwhining on Karn. He's great, don't get me wrong, but often times playing him in turn four or five costs you the game against aggro. Monored and any of the current Vehicles lists couldn't really care less. If you don't stabilize the board, or at the very least slow it down before dropping Karn, he isn't going to help you. If you are dead on board turn four, Karn won't help much.
we are not saying Karn is to good for standard, or at least I'm not. I am saying a card that can go in every deck that costs 65-70 dollars is really bad for the format.
Everyone wants card advantage and Karn does it for you along with producing tokens the power each other and off other artifacts.
And there are plenty of color combos that have weak or no ability to generate card advantage in Standard.
I am curious if he stronger or weaker with no Kaladesh sure Kaladesh provides a lot of artifacts to help power up Karns tokens but Kaladesh and its fleet of flying vehicles make it way to easy to go over the top and attack Walkers and Players.
I try new brews every week, and people are overwhining on Karn. He's great, don't get me wrong, but often times playing him in turn four or five costs you the game against aggro. Monored and any of the current Vehicles lists couldn't really care less. If you don't stabilize the board, or at the very least slow it down before dropping Karn, he isn't going to help you. If you are dead on board turn four, Karn won't help much.
Where he does his magic is in the Aggro decks, once they have establish board presence,they play a Karn so they can gain advantage to either increase board presence or recover after a wipe.
Think about an Aggro deck with Ruin Raider and Karn. That is drawing 3 cards per turn. In my Mono black deck, that just keeps filling my hand with more removal and creatures and the game gets away from them fast.
I try new brews every week, and people are overwhining on Karn. He's great, don't get me wrong, but often times playing him in turn four or five costs you the game against aggro. Monored and any of the current Vehicles lists couldn't really care less. If you don't stabilize the board, or at the very least slow it down before dropping Karn, he isn't going to help you. If you are dead on board turn four, Karn won't help much.
we are not saying Karn is to good for standard, or at least I'm not. I am saying a card that can go in every deck that costs 65-70 dollars is really bad for the format.
I get that, but the title of this thread is literally "Karn should not exist in Standard". That's what I'm refuting. Smuggler's Copter being seen as an auto-include two drop and Karn being expensive are exactly the same thing. Plenty of decks run only two Karn, and sure that's expensive, but he's not needed for any single strategy. He just adds something to decks, he doesn't spawn them.
I try new brews every week, and people are overwhining on Karn. He's great, don't get me wrong, but often times playing him in turn four or five costs you the game against aggro. Monored and any of the current Vehicles lists couldn't really care less. If you don't stabilize the board, or at the very least slow it down before dropping Karn, he isn't going to help you. If you are dead on board turn four, Karn won't help much.
we are not saying Karn is to good for standard, or at least I'm not. I am saying a card that can go in every deck that costs 65-70 dollars is really bad for the format.
I´m chiming in as a player who considered picking up a standard deck, but ultimately opted out because of the price and ubiquity of Karn. I strongly dislike feeling like I´m playing a budget/non-optimal list, and it seems like I have the choice of either doing that or dishing out an unreasonable amount on an insanely inflated card that´s bound to crash eventually. I know that buying singles that will go down in value is part of the format, but this is just too much. I actually started to scrape a white aggro deck together, I even have the playset of History, but now I´m going to feel like I´m playing a loser´s version of WB Vehicles, and there´s no way I´m buying into a $650 Standard deck. I could consider GB Constrictor, but I guess it´s just a matter of time before people figure out that Karn is good there too. So I´m giving it a pass and I´m selling the Standard relevant cards I have.
I´m convinced that Karn hurts the format. I can´t possibly be the only one who was tempted to get into Standard, then looked at the top decks and the prices and went "heeell no".
THIS is what the problem is. It's not just a 4 cost 6 (+1 unless exiled immediately) loyalty plains walker that starts with value and continues to generate it.
It's the fact that right now standard is decimated. FNM barely fires in many places (even if your LGS is doing fine think big picture) and they print a card that CAN go in any deck and generate value. Is it optimized for every deck? No. Does it function in every deck? Yes. How many decks are answering T4 6 loyalty? Even if you do, they play another, still value. Paying attention to the 'artifacts matter' portion of the -2 is shallow. The +1 and needing to deal with 6 loyalty is the power. Sure Vehicles or RDW can just plow through and ignore him, but the fact is we have a card that is $70 bucks in a standard that needs more players. There was plenty of problem with the cost of standard with 20-25 dollar premium mythics before this. Now this bank busting price tag (doesn't matter if it EVENTUALLY drops) is making people refuse to play standard.
Karn does hurt an already bleeding and ragged format. The Kaladesh dumpster fire is still harming the format but all will not get better after it rotates and I guarantee Karn will NOT lose his luster as much as people think with Kaladesh rotation. After 2 years of stomping on their own game and driving people away from standard they need to be much smarter than this and proactively take action to make standard less expensive not more. They're doing nothing there, and they're doing nothing to attract people to the format. (The Challenger decks are not a hit but a total whiff)
Printing Karn is a mistake.
Gary, your'e just mad because you do not understand why how Karn's price tag is what it is. And the going rate for a "plains" walker is not a reason to not print it.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I have heard its getting Vintage and Legacy testing. Karn, two cards and two powerhouses.
KNEEL BEFORE THE KARNFATHER.
Youtube Channel
Abrupt Decay isn't standard legal, though.
Youtube Channel
Karn seems like a generically good card to me that is particularly good with artifacts. I think that as the format shakes out, most non-artifact decks will find better cards to replace them, reducing demand. In all formats, if Karn is good, answers will make Karn worse, also reducing demand.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
This thread isn't particularly topical to standard -- despite discussing a standard card.
Talk about standard applications or #locked.
People are still testing what works in standard and he's particularly good with heart of kiran, this won't be a 2 year issue it'll be a 5 month issue until rotation.
The price is An issue of any tournament level playable card; it's a product of the volume of middle men, the competitive scene, scarcity by wizards, and the value people place on entertainment. Considering how strong Lyra, teferi, mox, history of benalia or chainwhirler are and how good the uncommons are he'll go down. To the point where a box is break even value on average if you break it down.
Compare to JtMS in worldwake during standard, where the boxes were Jace or bust because that deck had over 50% of the format.
I'm glad they didn't tack removal on him, because you can still kill his token and eat his face if you need to unlike Chandra who immediately removed the biggest threat by the time she landed.
The deck in standard that gets the most out of him is BW vehicles, since it gives the mid-range deck the late-game card advantage to hopefully close out against control decks while making tokens that can potentially go over a Torrential Gearhulk. The one problem is that Lyra Dawnbringer is game ending in a lot of match ups and the traditional 4/4 flying vehicle of choice just isn't going to cut it anymore. Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp has sort of become a go-to card for dealing with Lyra since it can swing into a lyra and live. That's better than the vast majority of the format right now at the cheap cost of 4 mana.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I´m convinced that Karn hurts the format. I can´t possibly be the only one who was tempted to get into Standard, then looked at the top decks and the prices and went "heeell no".
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
G/B Constrictor decks are very fun to play, but may be a bad time putting money into since most of the key components all rotate out soon
It's my favourite deck, so I'll be sad to see it go.
Karn is a quality good card that is going in a lot of decks. He's costed reasonably and get high usage but not "Broken from power. The mythic leads to high price.
Smugglers Copter was a quality good card that went in ALMOST all decks due to cheap costing. Nothing it did was broken. Smugglers copter went to $20 due to being a rare with very high demand.
The problem with copter was that it was in the set BEFORE Fatal Push and limited removal at it's timeframe.
If Wizards is going to continue to be aggressive with banning cards in Standard because they have high meta-game saturation, Karn is probably a target. Otherwise, free Copter since it's not broken, just popular.
THIS is what the problem is. It's not just a 4 cost 6 (+1 unless exiled immediately) loyalty plains walker that starts with value and continues to generate it.
It's the fact that right now standard is decimated. FNM barely fires in many places (even if your LGS is doing fine think big picture) and they print a card that CAN go in any deck and generate value. Is it optimized for every deck? No. Does it function in every deck? Yes. How many decks are answering T4 6 loyalty? Even if you do, they play another, still value. Paying attention to the 'artifacts matter' portion of the -2 is shallow. The +1 and needing to deal with 6 loyalty is the power. Sure Vehicles or RDW can just plow through and ignore him, but the fact is we have a card that is $70 bucks in a standard that needs more players. There was plenty of problem with the cost of standard with 20-25 dollar premium mythics before this. Now this bank busting price tag (doesn't matter if it EVENTUALLY drops) is making people refuse to play standard.
Karn does hurt an already bleeding and ragged format. The Kaladesh dumpster fire is still harming the format but all will not get better after it rotates and I guarantee Karn will NOT lose his luster as much as people think with Kaladesh rotation. After 2 years of stomping on their own game and driving people away from standard they need to be much smarter than this and proactively take action to make standard less expensive not more. They're doing nothing there, and they're doing nothing to attract people to the format. (The Challenger decks are not a hit but a total whiff)
Printing Karn is a mistake.
we are not saying Karn is to good for standard, or at least I'm not. I am saying a card that can go in every deck that costs 65-70 dollars is really bad for the format.
And there are plenty of color combos that have weak or no ability to generate card advantage in Standard.
I am curious if he stronger or weaker with no Kaladesh sure Kaladesh provides a lot of artifacts to help power up Karns tokens but Kaladesh and its fleet of flying vehicles make it way to easy to go over the top and attack Walkers and Players.
Where he does his magic is in the Aggro decks, once they have establish board presence,they play a Karn so they can gain advantage to either increase board presence or recover after a wipe.
Think about an Aggro deck with Ruin Raider and Karn. That is drawing 3 cards per turn. In my Mono black deck, that just keeps filling my hand with more removal and creatures and the game gets away from them fast.
I get that, but the title of this thread is literally "Karn should not exist in Standard". That's what I'm refuting. Smuggler's Copter being seen as an auto-include two drop and Karn being expensive are exactly the same thing. Plenty of decks run only two Karn, and sure that's expensive, but he's not needed for any single strategy. He just adds something to decks, he doesn't spawn them.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Just expensive.
It's a bummer -- but start cracking those packs!