Caught some of your stream yesterday, really enjoying this deck even though its getting crushed by aggro - Steel-leaf champions, UR prowess and mono-r aggro are everywhere at the minute. Any thoughts on how to adapt to an aggressive meta without diluting the game-plan? I've moved to two aetherflux main-deck, but it's still a struggle vs. decks that are swinging for lethal on turn 4/5.
Hey, thanks for dropping by the stream and here as well. Playing 2 Reservoirs in the main is as far as I'd probably go. If you're getting beaten by non-hasty aggro decks then moving to 4 Expertises and 3 Engineers is something you could consider, but I hate the idea as this deck has serious issues with flooding, and Engineer is crucial in alleviating that problem.
I'm still figuring out these MUs, this deck can draw pretty well or horribly bad, and figuring out where the average lies can be tough.
well it trades speed for having some proper game 1 interaction. Game 1 we're doing very little but goldfishing and it's pretty easy to just die to aggro before being able to assemble anything so the abrades and sweltering suns would go a long way to shoring that weakness up
What about... wait for it.............. Gleaming Barrier? Would help with aggro MUs.
This card actually caught my eye when it got spoiled, but I haven't actually gone as far as testing it. It's still so hard to board cards for anything. I could see myself testing 1-2.
Admiral's Order might be another one for control matchups. You can usually get raid when you need it and there's something to be said for an actual one mana hard counter. Otherwise a good UW pilot will just camp on the statuaries/reservoirs and never ever tap out. Metallic Rebuke will be live for like one turn after they cast Teferi and if you don't combo off in that one turn they will blank it for the rest of the game.
Admiral's Order might be another one for control matchups. You can usually get raid when you need it and there's something to be said for an actual one mana hard counter. Otherwise a good UW pilot will just camp on the statuaries/reservoirs and never ever tap out. Metallic Rebuke will be live for like one turn after they cast Teferi and if you don't combo off in that one turn they will blank it for the rest of the game.
Didn't this deck used to run 19 or 20 land?
Admiral's Orders is a viable option. The best thing about Rebuke, though, is that it allows you to develop your board and still have access to counter for Teferi. Teferi is definitely a scary card and usually a must-answer. The games I've had against UW have been very skill intensive thus far.
I did run 20 lands, but went down in numbers when Traveler's Amulet got reprinted. I've been thinking about going back to 19 lands, but it's really hard to find cuts. I think I'm going to try 2 Barals and 19 lands next, adding probably just an island.
I tried taking this version through a league. I felt like the midrange matchup is good, the control matchup is ok, but the aggro matchup is godawful. I found myself missing Engulf the Shore every game as I was getting run over again and again.
I was also not impressed with Mox Amber. The fact that you can only have one out at a time hurts it a lot compared to ye old Bone Saw. It makes hitting turn two Reverse Engineer much harder and badly limits the explosiveness of Paradoxical Outcome. If you can tap it for mana then you can do some neat stuff chaining outcomes together but even then you're only ever drawing one card off of it.
I don't know. I've liked this deck a lot for a long time but I'm not sure it's viable unless aggro gets hated out of the meta somehow.
I tried taking this version through a league. I felt like the midrange matchup is good, the control matchup is ok, but the aggro matchup is godawful. I found myself missing Engulf the Shore every game as I was getting run over again and again.
I was also not impressed with Mox Amber. The fact that you can only have one out at a time hurts it a lot compared to ye old Bone Saw. It makes hitting turn two Reverse Engineer much harder and badly limits the explosiveness of Paradoxical Outcome. If you can tap it for mana then you can do some neat stuff chaining outcomes together but even then you're only ever drawing one card off of it.
I don't know. I've liked this deck a lot for a long time but I'm not sure it's viable unless aggro gets hated out of the meta somehow.
I do agree with all of these points. Engulf was pretty crucial for this deck.
Nice! That looked satisfying. Who says Dispel is out of standard? Thanks for the gratuitous namecheck.
I always found before that we could outdraw control surprisingly well. Even without Key to the City or Merchant's Dockhand shenanigans the power of Reverse Engineer and Paradoxical Outcome is real. Now that you can't load up Bonesaw on the crane in a pinch it's a little trickier since you still have to resolve the kill spell, but if you have enough permission in the deck I think you can still force it through.
Any deck that plays one drops and any kind of interaction is rough. A red deck that curves one drop into two drop into Abrade is just about unbeatable. Ditto with the white aggro decks once they bring in Fragmentize. Even BG constrictor gets tough if they enough Naturalize/Brontodon action in their 75. I don't know if there's a good answer on color. I've tried stuff like Galestrike before, but it just seems too slow. When we bring in cards purely to interact we can wind up fizzling on the combo and just losing with a bunch of subpar interactive stuff in play.
The worst part is when you know the aggro matchup is bad so you take risky lines to shoot for the low percentage victory and then get punished for it.
I've cut some of the most unnecessary SB cards in order to gain % points against GPG decks. As for SBing, I've started to cut down to 1 Baral in most SB games when I know what kind of interaction I want.
Why not main deck Antiquities War over the Cranes? 2 Cranes costs the same mana but only digs for 8, 1 AW digs for 10 and gives you an alternate wincon. Not to mention you can bounce AW with Paradox when the third trigger is on the stack to get all the 5/5's and be able to recast it again.
I just started playing again a few weeks ago so I don't know the standard meta that well but is having those early 1/3 fliers for blocking really worth giving up a bonus wincon that doesn't require you to draw Reservoir?
Why not main deck Antiquities War over the Cranes? 2 Cranes costs the same mana but only digs for 8, 1 AW digs for 10 and gives you an alternate wincon. Not to mention you can bounce AW with Paradox when the third trigger is on the stack to get all the 5/5's and be able to recast it again.
I just started playing again a few weeks ago so I don't know the standard meta that well but is having those early 1/3 fliers for blocking really worth giving up a bonus wincon that doesn't require you to draw Reservoir?
Crane and Wars are not even comparable. Crane is definitely one the best cards in the whole deck. It makes an immediate impact to the game for two mana. Bouncing Wars is so expensive that it's not a realistic thing to happen in any game you would play.
Fair enough. I've seen lists online both ways so was just curious on the pros/cons of each.
As for bouncing AW it didn't really seem that expensive since by that point you are likely going to have a Statuary down so AW and a Glint-Nest both will technically cost 1 island. It seemed worth it to tap 2 extra artifacts to dig 1 deeper this turn and 5 more for free next turn.
Also what is the main purpose for Baral in the deck? I've seen some lists run it, some don't, and some have it in the sideboard. Other than allowing the Mox Ambers to tap for blue, the mana cost reduction doesn't seem particularly necessary considering how much mana is cheated with Statuary already.
Fair enough. I've seen lists online both ways so was just curious on the pros/cons of each.
As for bouncing AW it didn't really seem that expensive since by that point you are likely going to have a Statuary down so AW and a Glint-Nest both will technically cost 1 island. It seemed worth it to tap 2 extra artifacts to dig 1 deeper this turn and 5 more for free next turn.
Also what is the main purpose for Baral in the deck? I've seen some lists run it, some don't, and some have it in the sideboard. Other than allowing the Mox Ambers to tap for blue, the mana cost reduction doesn't seem particularly necessary considering how much mana is cheated with Statuary already.
Crane is a turn two play, War isn't. Moreover, Crane helps us to dig for Statuary for turn two, or possibly a 0-mana artifact so that we can cast Reverse Engineer on t3. These are the most common sequences. Bouncing our own creatures during blocks is the most common plays this deck does, so having Crane as a blocker is a necessity. Even just having chump blockers is quite important.
Baral isn't absolutely necessary, but it makes the hands without a Statuary a lot better. Baral + Mox make for a strong Outcome even without a Statuary in play. The cost reduction isn't meaningless either, especially when you go for Memory and need to chain more spells after that.
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Glint-Nest Crane
4 Ornithopter
3 Baral, Chief of Compliance
1 Artificer's Assistant
4 Paradoxical Outcome
4 Reverse Engineer
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Renegade Map
4 Inspiring Statuary
2 Commit/Memory
3 Baral's Expertise
4 Mox Amber
2 River's Rebuke
3 Metallic Rebuke
1 Efficient Construction
2 Treasure Map
1 Commit/Memory
1 The Antiquities War
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Key to the City
1 Unwind
1 Field of Ruin
deciding when to board Metallic Rebuke in is a tough decision. If you have found a plan that works for you then keep rocking it.
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Hey, thanks for dropping by the stream and here as well. Playing 2 Reservoirs in the main is as far as I'd probably go. If you're getting beaten by non-hasty aggro decks then moving to 4 Expertises and 3 Engineers is something you could consider, but I hate the idea as this deck has serious issues with flooding, and Engineer is crucial in alleviating that problem.
I'm still figuring out these MUs, this deck can draw pretty well or horribly bad, and figuring out where the average lies can be tough.
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I'm actually super stoked about this! thanks.
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Yeh nice job. I just hope it doesn't mean lots of people try to pick this up and suddenly dampening sphere is in everyone's sideboard lol
Also I am trying out a Hope of Ghirapur in the sideboard. With Ux so popular at the moment having a xantid swarm effect seems great.
give it some time, the Mox should come down in price sooner than later
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0 Glint-Nest Cranes makes me cringe
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That's a pretty hard sell, given my only concern with the deck atm is its aggro MUs. I doubt Jhoira would remedy those problems.
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This card actually caught my eye when it got spoiled, but I haven't actually gone as far as testing it. It's still so hard to board cards for anything. I could see myself testing 1-2.
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Didn't this deck used to run 19 or 20 land?
Admiral's Orders is a viable option. The best thing about Rebuke, though, is that it allows you to develop your board and still have access to counter for Teferi. Teferi is definitely a scary card and usually a must-answer. The games I've had against UW have been very skill intensive thus far.
I did run 20 lands, but went down in numbers when Traveler's Amulet got reprinted. I've been thinking about going back to 19 lands, but it's really hard to find cuts. I think I'm going to try 2 Barals and 19 lands next, adding probably just an island.
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I was also not impressed with Mox Amber. The fact that you can only have one out at a time hurts it a lot compared to ye old Bone Saw. It makes hitting turn two Reverse Engineer much harder and badly limits the explosiveness of Paradoxical Outcome. If you can tap it for mana then you can do some neat stuff chaining outcomes together but even then you're only ever drawing one card off of it.
I don't know. I've liked this deck a lot for a long time but I'm not sure it's viable unless aggro gets hated out of the meta somehow.
I do agree with all of these points. Engulf was pretty crucial for this deck.
By the way, I tried out the Admiral's Orders. I got paired against Esper control in this friendly league, hopefully I'll get more data in the future: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/260680933
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Nice! That looked satisfying. Who says Dispel is out of standard? Thanks for the gratuitous namecheck.
I always found before that we could outdraw control surprisingly well. Even without Key to the City or Merchant's Dockhand shenanigans the power of Reverse Engineer and Paradoxical Outcome is real. Now that you can't load up Bonesaw on the crane in a pinch it's a little trickier since you still have to resolve the kill spell, but if you have enough permission in the deck I think you can still force it through.
Any deck that plays one drops and any kind of interaction is rough. A red deck that curves one drop into two drop into Abrade is just about unbeatable. Ditto with the white aggro decks once they bring in Fragmentize. Even BG constrictor gets tough if they enough Naturalize/Brontodon action in their 75. I don't know if there's a good answer on color. I've tried stuff like Galestrike before, but it just seems too slow. When we bring in cards purely to interact we can wind up fizzling on the combo and just losing with a bunch of subpar interactive stuff in play.
The worst part is when you know the aggro matchup is bad so you take risky lines to shoot for the low percentage victory and then get punished for it.
2 Inventors' Fair
4 Glint-Nest Crane
4 Ornithopter
2 Baral, Chief of Compliance
4 Paradoxical Outcome
4 Reverse Engineer
2 Commit // Memory
3 Baral's Expertise
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Renegade Map
4 Inspiring Statuary
4 Mox Amber
1 River's Rebuke
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Metallic Rebuke
1 Commit // Memory
2 Admiral's Order
1 Efficient Construction
1 Key to the City
1 Navigator's Compass
1 Field of Ruin
2 Treasure Map
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Sentinel Totem
I've cut some of the most unnecessary SB cards in order to gain % points against GPG decks. As for SBing, I've started to cut down to 1 Baral in most SB games when I know what kind of interaction I want.
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That's a really cool performance. It'd be nice to hear from the player how they ended up on this list. 4x Zhalfirin Voids seems way too greedy to me.
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I just started playing again a few weeks ago so I don't know the standard meta that well but is having those early 1/3 fliers for blocking really worth giving up a bonus wincon that doesn't require you to draw Reservoir?
Crane and Wars are not even comparable. Crane is definitely one the best cards in the whole deck. It makes an immediate impact to the game for two mana. Bouncing Wars is so expensive that it's not a realistic thing to happen in any game you would play.
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As for bouncing AW it didn't really seem that expensive since by that point you are likely going to have a Statuary down so AW and a Glint-Nest both will technically cost 1 island. It seemed worth it to tap 2 extra artifacts to dig 1 deeper this turn and 5 more for free next turn.
Also what is the main purpose for Baral in the deck? I've seen some lists run it, some don't, and some have it in the sideboard. Other than allowing the Mox Ambers to tap for blue, the mana cost reduction doesn't seem particularly necessary considering how much mana is cheated with Statuary already.
Crane is a turn two play, War isn't. Moreover, Crane helps us to dig for Statuary for turn two, or possibly a 0-mana artifact so that we can cast Reverse Engineer on t3. These are the most common sequences. Bouncing our own creatures during blocks is the most common plays this deck does, so having Crane as a blocker is a necessity. Even just having chump blockers is quite important.
Baral isn't absolutely necessary, but it makes the hands without a Statuary a lot better. Baral + Mox make for a strong Outcome even without a Statuary in play. The cost reduction isn't meaningless either, especially when you go for Memory and need to chain more spells after that.
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