I'd like to see more Field of Ruins
for help against U/B Azcanta's
and as a general color fixer
it comes into play untapped.
with a bunch of 1 drop removals you can still sac it on turn 3 and cast something.
What is the general opinion on Confiscation Coup? I been playing with one in the main instead of the third Scarab God/ forth Contempt and really like it, but can decide if it better than the other two
Just on the subject of profane procession, two options worth mentioning are consign/oblivion and rivers rebuke. Obviously both of these will only work before procession flips.
Once it has become a land, field of ruin is probably the main tool open to us. I have seen a couple of deck lists with a single field in the side.
Yup! I do play River's Rebuke on the sideboard for tokens deck. Consign // Oblivion is pretty cool too as you can cast the bounce much earlier than Commit. Although I guess we would need the additional 5 mana that same turn or perhaps have a counter ready in hand when they re-cast it.
What is the general opinion on Confiscation Coup? I been playing with one in the main instead of the third Scarab God/ forth Contempt and really like it, but can decide if it better than the other two
I also play a one-off in my deck and I like it! Taking a page from the pre-banning Temur Energy's book haha. As they say, "What's worse than killing their creature? Steal it!"
Anyway, just to share my experience this deck, I joined 2 events last weekend: PPTQ and a Standard Showdown. Didn't do so well in the PPTQ and ended up with a 2-3. But had a 3-0 in the showdown.
I lost to the following decks:
Mono-Red: I think it's fair to say that Grixis Energy generally has a good match up against mono-red. Magma spray is really a must as mentioned by moodles. Vraska's Contempt helps not only in dealing with Hazoret and Phoenix but to stop the bleeding with the life gain. I'm thinking of adding Moment of Craving in the sideboard. It was a good fight until I got short on lands on game 3 and I'm on the draw.
Green Black Ramp: I lost twice because of Carnage Tyrant...two of them! Nothing you can really do about it unless you have the right card at the right moment. Thinking of perhaps adding Vona's Hunger or Doomfall. But since the GB Ramp played Wildest Dreams perhaps Doomfall would be better.
Esper Approach: I'm not sure if this really is a bad match-up or I was just paying poorly but I just couldn't out-counter them and the white black portion just has the entire arsenal of removal / disabler of key cards. I did win a game though when Dreamstealer lived for a few turns and they had mana shortage as well.
I won over the following decks:
White Black Vampires:Rekindling Phoenix helped me trade blows and kept their creatures at bay. Bouncing Radiant Destiny with Commit // Memory during combat was one of the key moments that made me win.
Mono Black Aggro:Whirler Virtuoso was key in this game since they played a lot of one drops. I also managed to confiscate their Bone Picker to clear the airways.
Sultai Control:Dreamstealer and Glint-Sleeve Siphoner gets out of hand when left unchecked for even just a few turns. The deck splashed green for Carnage Tyrant but I was lucky he didn't draw it or perhaps didn't have the right mana to play it.
Overall, I'm satisfied with how it all went. I just need to practice more to polish my plays and correct my mistakes. I'm also toying with the idea of using Mastermind's Acquisition in the main.
Here is the list I have. Inputs are very much welcome!
I drew this up myself after playing other builds of Grixis, and some of the Naya/GR Monsters decks, to get an idea of what the format is about. I built it closer in style to the Monsters deck.
My main "innovations" are to the mana base and the inclusion of Seekers' Squire and Champion of Wits.
The more "stock" manabases with Grixis are fine, but I was nonetheless able to get the numbers to a very comfortable spot while including a lot of lands that will virtually always enter untapped. Four Aether Hub and six basics will always enter untapped, and the four Dragonskull Summit have twelve lands that will let them enter untapped (eight duals of the right type, four Mountain, one Swamp), which means that they should reliably be online by turn 3 or so, with exception to the games where you draw multiple Spirebluff Canal and rightfully play those out first.
You have eight untapped turn-1 red sources that aren't Aether Hub, which means you can have Magma Spray online around 2/3 of the time for turn 1. You will probably choose to have it online much less frequently because you want to play a tapped land to get your colors online, but you do have the option.
The mana has been excellent thus far. I have seventeen black sources and six creatures that can dig for lands, so I can reliably cast Vraska's Contempt, the only double-black spell. I have fourteen blue sources, which is enough for the light touch of blue that the deck makes; and I have nineteen red sources, which is ample to do anything I want with the many red spells in the deck.
I added the creatures for a couple of reasons.
(1) I'm more comfortable playing a deck with a lot of creatures in it. These guys are taking up the 11th-17th removal/interactive slots, and I prefer not to play too many reactive cards. They're essentially the same as the umpteenth removal spells, but they can get in chip shots, which make a significant difference when you're loaded up on 4-power flying beaters.
(2) In this format, most of the cards that cost under 4cc aren't major threats. You don't need a big pile of spot removal to beat them, just need to play to board and buy time for your mythics to outclass them.
(3) The creatures are very good at making sure you hit land drops. This deck needs three things: its curve-topping mythics that win the game, lands to cast those mythics, and time to make those land drops. The creatures help find the lands and block or otherwise play to board, making time. They even dig to those mythics as well.
The sideboard is a total scattershot mess right now, I'm just testing a bunch of cards that might interest me. Once I get some more game 1 reps in with this deck against the field, I'll have an idea of what I'm supposed to be playing in the sideboard.
This deck feels like old-school Elspeth-Siege Rhino Abzan. Highly recommend taking it for a spin!
I went 3-1 to finish 4th in a 16-player Showdown event today. I beat UB mid-range, merfolk and RB aggro but lost to mono-red.
Over and over it was fast starts by aggressive opponents that caused me most difficulty. Having recently dropped all my fatal pushes for red removal, I think I may have gone too far. Perhaps one or two pushes are worth keeping main deck.
Pia Nalar is a nice 3 drop that synergies well with whirler virtuoso but two is plenty. There may also be room for two of another 2-drop alongside siphoner. Dire-fleet daredevil may be that card. Gifted aetherborne would be great except for its BB cost.
At the top end, a suite of 4 Phoenix, 3 Glorybringer and 2 Scarab Gods is serving well. Generally, these seem to be enough to exhaust opponents’ exile effects and burst through for lethal given time.
Other value cards for me today include Gonti, Doomfall and Magma Spray.
I'll piggyback off my last post which explained the basic angle I'm trying to take.
After some testing, Seekers' Squire and Champion of Wits were good and I will stand by them forever... but... I realized once I added a 27th land that I didn't really need all the smoothing. I happened upon Chart a Course which was sick and filled in the gap left by those guys. Champion gave the deck a bit of lategame edge it's now lacking, but it's not a huge loss -- it's almost a benefit not to have to play the front side, which was already really stretching the imagination to be Constructed-caliber.
I wanted another two-drop, and I ended up trying out Dire Fleet Daredevil. Daredevil is awesome! The body plays better than it looks; you can totally just run it out on turn 2 to get on the board. Daredevil scales admirably as the game goes long. I don't think you can play four of him, because you'd rather not have to make him your turn 2 play. But, counting Chart a Course, you now have eight proactive t2 plays that you're not embarrassed about making, in addition to being able to hold up removal.
I also found that I liked Glorybringer more than The Scarab God, so I cut a God for a Glorybringer. Glorybringer turns the corner quicker and for less mana investment than the God.
Speaking of removal, I tuned that some more too. Harnessed Lightning wasn't what I wanted it to be. It's still a great card, but all the spells I have in here do more things that I want. Magma Spray costs one mana and exiles, Abrade hits artifacts, Contempt hits everything I need to hit, Coup is Contempt on steroids, and Essence Scatter is a miser card that has a timing restriction compared to Lightning, but is more efficient when you can play through the restriction.
In the sideboard, I favor a discard-focused approach to control decks. I'm thinking about Lost Legacy as a hammer against fringe strategies, but also as a way to strip The Scarab God from opposing decks, because TSG decks' overall power level plummets without him available as a draw, to the point where I think I can fight through being down a card. I also have four sweeper effects to beat go-wide decks, which have been a problem. I play two Chandra as an extra threat, Tetzimoc as a hybrid sweeper + midrange trump, Chandra's Defeat for Hazoret and Phoenix/Glorybringer decks, and another Essence Scatter as a clean answer to the format's best threats.
Just on the discard point you make. I had good times today with doomfall - a 3 CMC contempt without the life gain OR a duress that takes a critter. Flexible and disruptive.
I went 3-1 to finish 4th in a 16-player Showdown event today. I beat UB mid-range, merfolk and RB aggro but lost to mono-red.
Over and over it was fast starts by aggressive opponents that caused me most difficulty. Having recently dropped all my fatal pushes for red removal, I think I may have gone too far. Perhaps one or two pushes are worth keeping main deck.
Congrats! I agree, Mono-Red is really a pain to deal with. I'm in the same situation as you now wherein I removed all my fatal pushes in favor of magma spray. Have you tried Moment of Craving ? I watched a couple of GP Memphis vids and the card seemed to keep the match up against mono-red manageable. I've yet to try it, too.
I'll piggyback off my last post which explained the basic angle I'm trying to take.
After some testing, Seekers' Squire and Champion of Wits were good and I will stand by them forever... but... I realized once I added a 27th land that I didn't really need all the smoothing. I happened upon Chart a Course which was sick and filled in the gap left by those guys. Champion gave the deck a bit of lategame edge it's now lacking, but it's not a huge loss -- it's almost a benefit not to have to play the front side, which was already really stretching the imagination to be Constructed-caliber.
I wanted another two-drop, and I ended up trying out Dire Fleet Daredevil. Daredevil is awesome! The body plays better than it looks; you can totally just run it out on turn 2 to get on the board. Daredevil scales admirably as the game goes long. I don't think you can play four of him, because you'd rather not have to make him your turn 2 play. But, counting Chart a Course, you now have eight proactive t2 plays that you're not embarrassed about making, in addition to being able to hold up removal.
I also found that I liked Glorybringer more than The Scarab God, so I cut a God for a Glorybringer. Glorybringer turns the corner quicker and for less mana investment than the God.
Speaking of removal, I tuned that some more too. Harnessed Lightning wasn't what I wanted it to be. It's still a great card, but all the spells I have in here do more things that I want. Magma Spray costs one mana and exiles, Abrade hits artifacts, Contempt hits everything I need to hit, Coup is Contempt on steroids, and Essence Scatter is a miser card that has a timing restriction compared to Lightning, but is more efficient when you can play through the restriction.
In the sideboard, I favor a discard-focused approach to control decks. I'm thinking about Lost Legacy as a hammer against fringe strategies, but also as a way to strip The Scarab God from opposing decks, because TSG decks' overall power level plummets without him available as a draw, to the point where I think I can fight through being down a card. I also have four sweeper effects to beat go-wide decks, which have been a problem. I play two Chandra as an extra threat, Tetzimoc as a hybrid sweeper + midrange trump, Chandra's Defeat for Hazoret and Phoenix/Glorybringer decks, and another Essence Scatter as a clean answer to the format's best threats.
I'm really curious about Dire Fleet Daredevil as it gives you not only card advantage but a decent blocker as well for mono-red or mono-black due to it's first strike. And wow, that's a really bold move removing Harnessed Lightning completely! Sometimes I used to generate energy for free to create another thopter or draw a card from siphoner. Let us know how it turns out!
I'm on the same boat as you guys on the discard strategy. As for me Dreamstealer is my weapon of choice. Once it goes unanswered for at least 3 turns, the game's in the bag. At least from my experience anyway.
Here's the list I have from last time's tweaking and had awesome results from yesterday's standard showdown. I removed Glimmer of Genius in favor of Arguel's Blood Fast . It works great with the Phoenix as well when transformed, giving you life in dire situations. And Mastermind's Acquisition gives you access to your toolbox for some unexpected Game 1 match ups.
The mana - I'd like another red source in there. May need to lose a fetid pool or drowned catacomb for a canyon slough or dragonskull summit. Also, the absence of a basic island feels wrong.
The missing fourth Vraska's Contempt - Unsure whether the two doomfalls make up for it.
Two Abrades main deck - Haven't faced a vehicles deck for a while but I know they're still around. Gearhulks are manageable.
Pia Nalaar - Her synergy is great but she could be an extra chart a course or removal spell.
Gonti - Awesome against slower and mid-range decks. Makes all the difference when he steals a bomb like Scarab God or Glorybringer. He did that so many times yesterday, twice against the same opponent. Comes out against weenies. Doubled against control. Great Scarab God target. It's just possible that one is optimum though bearing in mind the curve.
No counters - I don't miss the negates, but essence scatter can be a back breaker against mid-range.
Harnessed Lightning - All four. All day long. It forces the opponent to make choices based on what's in your energy pool, and sometimes they daren't risk it. That said, I'm very interested to read what Scasseden has to say about his experiences without them.
No Planeswalkers - I was running a single Chandra but could not keep her on the battlefield. Too often she's a one-shot removal spell then dead, and I don't want to have to expend creature resources guarding her only to have her contempted or burned. But, when she sticks she's great.
I wish I had room for - Another Chart a Course, the fourth Contempt.
Dire Fleet Daredevil is great. It plays better than it reads because a 2/1 first strike body is a brick wall against aggro decks in this format. I wouldn't play more than two but I'm really happy to have two of them.
Harnessed Lightning obviously has some synergies with the other energy cards, but what I found was that without the "free" energy from the green cards that got banned in January, it didn't reliably kill what I needed to kill anymore. The format has also shifted more heavily toward creatures with hexproof (Bristling Hydra, Carnage Tyrant), indestructible (Hazoret the Fervent), or pseudo-indestructible (The Scarab God, Rekindling Phoenix). The remaining threats that matter are Torrential Gearhulk, which dies to Abrade much more reliably than Lightning; and Glorybringer, the one premier threat in the format for which I would actively be happy to have Lightning.
I like the broader coverage from Abrade more than Lightning's ability to hit Glorybringer, so I play Abrade instead.
Hope this note finds everyone winning with Grixis. When taking more of a control approach, I always get to 7+ turns hence I combo Locust god and Nezahal if playing blue black from the sideboard. It can get vicious. Anyone else here try that or more focused on mid range stomp?
Since the last update, I cut down some of the expensive spells, which at one point included cutting the 4th Glorybringer. I'm back on it because I realized my issue wasn't the top end but the bottom end -- I didn't have consistent enough interaction with red's early drops, which made all the high drops a liability, since I couldn't block well enough to get to them at a stable life total.
I cut Daredevil, although I still think it's a very good card in the archetype. It's good but wasn't doing quite what I needed against red consistently; if they just don't draw a Lightning Strike or Shock and you don't have a Siphoner to hit, it's hard to play Daredevil in a timely manner.
I added Champion of Wits in the slot that I had previously devoted to Chart a Course, because I wanted to affect the board. Champ occasionally has some lategame power that comes in handy. Most Grixis players have used Champ in here at some point so I'll save on further elaboration.
In the sideboard, I added a pair of Ammit Eternal in order to put pressure on control decks and durdly decks. Eternal lines up really well against UB Control's removal: they have to have a revolt trigger for Fatal Push or two Moment of Craving to kill it without resorting to premium spells like Vraska's Contempt or a counterspell, and the more threats you have like this, the more likely you are to run them out of answers. Against decks that play one spell a turn and don't affect the board much (Ramp, GPG come to mind), Eternal is clocking for four a turn. I really like how this guy has played out of the board in this exact shell. I don't think stock Grixis can leverage him since stock Grixis doesn't have a clock to complement the Ammit, and Ammit isn't quite good enough to carry the load on his own. Curving him into Phoenix and Glorybringer is a hell of a different story.
Spells
I cut Confiscation Coup despite its high power level because it encouraged me to stretch the manabase too hard. I cut Chart for Champ and Daredevil for more removal spells (which is 99% of what Daredevil does anyhow) in an effort to shore up the red matchup. I'm experimenting with Cut // Ribbons and really digging it, the extra reach is pretty clutch when so many play patterns in midrange mirrors involve spending two turns playing Scarab God and then making a 4/4. If the 4/4 can't block fliers then the Phoenix -> Glorybringer -> Ribbons curve really punishes that line of play; hell it's straight 20 damage if you make your sixth land drop!
I'm up to four Sprays and two Abrades because of red.
The two interesting one-ofs in the maindeck are Arguel's Blood Fast and Sweltering Suns. Suns is a game 1 out to tokens and some red draws. Since it cycles, the opportunity cost of maindecking one is pretty low. Blood Fast is a hammer in attrition games, which can be difficult for this build of Grixis, and has some narrow splash utility against red by "naturally" flipping into Temple of Aclazotz and gaining life repeatedly with Scarab God and Phoenix.
In the sideboard, I cut Tetzimoc and the third Sweltering Suns for a pair of Hour of Devastation. These are primarily for the go-wide token decks, but could be justified against red aggressive decks of all kinds (monored/Rx aggro, GR/GRx monsters).
Lands
Since I cut Coup, I got to streamline the manabase more. Not much to say except that it's great now. I cut the 27th land because I added Champ and Blood Fast.
I like the cut of your jib, kid! The deck looks tight, however, I have some suggestions that may improve it a little bit. I don't usually play this deck but I have played against it every week at FNM or Standard Showdown for the past couple of months.
Maindeck;
I recommend that you move the 2 Champion of Wits to the sideboard and you play the 2 Chandras main deck instead of them. The reason is that Champions are only good against control decks or maybe other midrange decks but they're not what you want to have in your deck against mono red, R/G monsters or even token decks. Against all those decks having Chandra main deck would work much better, at least you can kill a creature the turn she comes into play.
The other change I would suggest is taking out the 1 Arguel's blood fast and play a second Sweltering suns because again if you're playing against aggro decks or mirror match the sweltering suns would be much more useful and the arguel's blood fast is really not a card you want to top deck late game or cast it any time during the mid-late game.
Also, for lands I'd cut 2 Aether hub and 1 Island and play 3 Swamps and 5 mountains instead because you need black mana more than blue mana, and also it's not that good to have too many aether hubs since the only energy provider you have is siphoner and virtuoso. If you were playing 4 Harnessed lightning then it would make sense to play 4 hubs but not with just siphoner/virtuoso.
Sideboard:
Since one of the sweltering suns is moved to the main deck you have 1 empty space and also I think the 3 Duress are more than enough and you don't need to play 4. So instead of these 2 cards you could play 2 more ammit eternals because I think those cards are really good and underrated and they wreck control decks since they hit for a lot.
What about Hostage Taker against Coup? Whether we kill Hostage Taker or they do, we get our creature back. The only bad scenario is that they also Coup our Hostage Taker and are able to cast the creature before we kill the Hostage Taker.
Edit: A review of midrange decks is here. Whether you agree with the conclusions or not, it seems like an informed overview worth considering.
Won a very small Standard Showdown event with the deck today. A couple of points to make:
* Doomfall continues to perform well, both as a flexible discard spell and a further exile effect beyond spray and contempt. I have not regretted drawing it yet.
* dire fleet daredevil is ok. As Scasseden said, he’s more often a turn 2 speed bump against fast aggro than anything. I didn’t have the chance to play him later and use his extra ability today, but in the absence of a better two-drop i’ll Keep him for now
What about Hostage Taker against Coup? Whether we kill Hostage Taker or they do, we get our creature back. The only bad scenario is that they also Coup our Hostage Taker and are able to cast the creature before we kill the Hostage Taker.
Edit: A review of midrange decks is here. Whether you agree with the conclusions or not, it seems like an informed overview worth considering.
I don't think they can cast the hostage if they use Coup on Hostage Taker, right? "You" in the ability refers to the controller of the ETB trigger of Hostage Taker, so taking control of the Hostage Taker after it's hit the field shouldn't affect who has the ability to cast the card from exile.
I think Mengucci is right that Coup causes a lot of problems for players on the 4-5cc threats like my list, but I also don't think Coup is actually seeing significant play right now: it's only showing up in any amount in one deck (Grixis Energy) and at most as a 1-of, and often not even that. I don't think Coup should be the reason we're off of it.
But with that said, if you really need an answer to Coup, then Hostage Taker is pretty clean.
I think the real question to be asked is this: can you beat Hazored aggro decks with the higher density of creatures?
I used to think they would give an edge, since you turn the corner quicker with Phoenix and Glorybringer.
I'm starting to think that isn't really true for two reasons: (1) Scarab God "turns the corner" about as fast, even though it's a slower clock than Glorybringer; (2) playing the extra threats means you have less spot removal, and you want a lot of it to beat red's early draws reliably. Phoenix is great, but maybe Glorybringer isn't what we really want?
Glorybringer's real edge is against the white go-wide decks more than anything else -- being able to fly over tokens and clock is a big deal. The exert ability is also a big deal against Winding Constrictor decks. I'm starting to wonder if maybe Phoenix is good enough at that job on his own, though, and whether we might benefit from cutting Glorybringer for extra interaction (or maybe even something like Gearhulk up the curve).
I really do like Phoenix above the extra marginal interactive spells though.
Hi. New to this deck. I surveyed the last 20-25 lists on MtgTop8, and these feature on average 0.75 Phoenix and 0.25 Glorybringer.
Considering Phoenix, I think it's because we have better spells to play at 4 cmc : Contempt, Chandra, Gonti and Commit//Memory.
Chandra is better with The Scarab God than Phoenix. Both are Contempt magnets, but then Phoenix will have died doing nothing. But Chandra can at least remove a creature (or Burn for 2) before she dies, and the removed creature is a future zombie slave for our God (while Phoenix will never be a good target for the God).
Gonti is pure card advantage (except when you reveal 4 lands), on a respectable body.
Commit//Memory is one of the very few ways of dealing with artifacts and enchantments. It deserves a spot in the main deck, IMHO.
I think 1-2 Hostage Taker, can be quite good in our list. It does reverse Coup if opponent cast it on one of our creature, and it's otherwise a 3 for 1 when you can cast the kidnapped creature. The fact that is, it can deal with Hazoret, Scarab God, Phoenix, etc... And is an amazing target to reanimate.
For my list, at 4 mana, I would go with 3 Contempt, 1 Commit//Memory, 2 Chandra, 1 Gonti and 1 Taker. There's no room for Phoenix there.
Glorybringer is awkwardly at 5 mana, like the God, Liliana and Confiscation Coup. We don't want to many spells on that curve, and we should want 3 Gods in our list. That leaves 2 slots open at 5 mana.
While I love the dragon, and I have 3 sleeping in my collection, we're probably better served by Coup, which is always a 2 for 1 (either we've removed a creature and gained one, or they spend a removal on the confiscated creature and thus lose both a removal and a creature to our single Coup). Glorybringer can't deal with Hazoret, Gearhulk, Scarab God, Phoenix, etc. But Confiscation Coup can do this.
Liliana has some synergy with Scarab God, and could prove to be an annoying cushion of life to various Aggro decks. Mostly, it seems we have a bad matchup against UB Control. Liliana can be a solution to that problem.
In my main deck, I would go with 3 God, 1 Liliana and 1 Coup (with another Liliana and Coup in my SB). I don't see Glorybringer being any better than this combination of 5 cards, and the amazing results of Grixis Energy in the last month, featuring no Glorybringer and 0-1 Phoenix probably proves that point.
I agree with @Spotbran : Glorybringer and Phoenix better fit a RGx Monsters deck. Green is required to ramp them and aggressively profit from these cards.
I'm struggling with the manabase. I want to support BB and RR for Contempt/Chandra on T4, and UU for Coup/Gearhulk on T5/6. Ideally, this means 18 BR and 16/15 U ressources (for 90% odds of casting on curve). The best I've come up with is this :
This manabase provides 21 B, 18 R and 16 U. There are 10 Swamp/Mountain for Dragonskull Summit, but only 8 Swamp/Island for Drowned Catacomb. This translates into 89% and 81% chances of playing one of these two check-land untapped on T4.
Question is : Would it be better to add a Swamp and remove a Spirebluff Canal in order to have more basics to look at for my check-lands to ETB untapped? This at the cost of less reliable T4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance and T5 Confiscation Coup for color considerations? Or would they be more reliably cast on curve because check-lands are more likely to ETB untapped?
I would have liked to squeeze in some Evolving Wilds to trigger Fatal Push's Revolt, but the opportunity cost of losing the Cycle Lands seems too great. To play the check-lands untapped, I would be forced to fetch a Swamp (which doesn’t fix my color needs). Or a Mountain to play Dragonskull Summit, combination of both doesn’t fix my U needs (same goes for Island and Drowned Catacomb vs R needs). In the end, either Fatal Push doesn't make the cut, or it does but with no real hope of triggering Revolt. Opinion?
This is the list I will most probably register for the Store Championship (Gameday) :
Question is : Would it be better to add a Swamp and remove a Spirebluff Canal in order to have more basics to look at for my check-lands to ETB untapped? This at the cost of less reliable T4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance and T5 Confiscation Coup for color considerations? Or would they be more reliably cast on curve because check-lands are more likely to ETB untapped?
I haven't gone that deep into the maths of mana base, but to those who are into that, here's a link I saw:
Anyway, my answer to the question is yes (replace 1 spirebluff with 1 swamp). And below are the reasons which are based only on my personal experience:
- the 4th spirebluff will always come into play tapped anyway
- the need for the reliable red mana by T4 is understandable, but the blue / double blue won't be needed until T5, T6. I'm pretty confident the drowned catacomb, fetid pool, aether hub will be able to cover that. Besides, you only have two cards that require double blue and they are rather situational and not exactly a 'must-cast' by T5, T6
- an added swamp increases your chance of bring dragonskull and drowned catacomb untapped
- an added swamp increases your chance of T2 glint-sleeve
- in the event that i get field of ruin-ed by my opponent, it gives me the option to search for that swamp in the event that that's the mana color i need
Hope this helps in any way. Good luck to us who will be playing this weekend!
I didn't have much success playing Grixis Energy at Store Championship yesterday. I was more hyped on Modern lately, and started playing Standard just 2 days ago. I didn’t know the deck, forgot triggers, made mistakes, and had no experience of the format's metagame (I read articles, I had the knowledge, but not the experience). But I played against a guy who is probably one of the best player at our LGS, who’s on Grixis Energy too, and we talked a lot. That was very enlightening, and I just want to share a bit of his wisdom here...
Fatal Push is a better removal than Magma Spray. Too many creatures can survive 2 damage burn spells, and we don't want to exile too many future targets for The Scarab God's ability anyway. Chump blocking with a Thopter is a good way to trigger Revolt anyway, and this makes the case for full playset of Whirler Virtuoso.
Supreme Will's primary use is to protect Siphoner from a removal of turn 3, as this will put us ahead very fast.
Glimmer of Genius is not only draw 2, but also 2 more energy to spend on Siphoner's ability (a 3rd card). Passing the turn with 4 lands untapped is also quite threatening, because of Vraska’s Contempt. That should change opponent’s intended play, and offer a window to cast Glimmer.
No rush to cast The Scarab God. It should be the last card you play, unless you have nothing useful to do otherwise. This because it is pointless to cast it on empty graveyards, and because you want opponent to spend their removals on anything else you cast before. Once Scarab Gob hits the field, we'll be too busy with our mana activating its ability to cast most of our cards anyway. Because of this, overloading on spells that cost 2 is very important, as they can be played on top of God's ability. And 4 cmc instants like Glimmer and Contempt are important too, because is you have God and pass the turn with 4 untapped lands and cards in your hand, the possibilities are endless. Thus, Liliana and Confiscation Oup are really not well positioned to help our strategy.
Torrential Gearhulk #2 is more important than Vraska's Contempt #4. It can cast a Contempt from the graveyard anyway, and it's body is not only a 4 turns clock, but can survive Glorybringer's fire and block other Gearhulks, Scarab God, Hazoret, Rhonas, 4/4 Zombies, etc.
I didn't have much success playing Grixis Energy at Store Championship yesterday. I was more hyped on Modern lately, and started playing Standard just 2 days ago. I didn’t know the deck, forgot triggers, made mistakes, and had no experience of the format's metagame (I read articles, I had the knowledge, but not the experience). But I played against a guy who is probably one of the best player at our LGS, who’s on Grixis Energy too, and we talked a lot. That was very enlightening, and I just want to share a bit of his wisdom here...
Fatal Push is a better removal than Magma Spray. Too many creatures can survive 2 damage burn spells, and we don't want to exile too many future targets for The Scarab God's ability anyway. Chump blocking with a Thopter is a good way to trigger Revolt anyway, and this makes the case for full playset of Whirler Virtuoso.
Supreme Will's primary use is to protect Siphoner from a removal of turn 3, as this will put us ahead very fast.
Glimmer of Genius is not only draw 2, but also 2 more energy to spend on Siphoner's ability (a 3rd card). Passing the turn with 4 lands untapped is also quite threatening, because of Vraska’s Contempt. That should change opponent’s intended play, and offer a window to cast Glimmer.
No rush to cast The Scarab God. It should be the last card you play, unless you have nothing useful to do otherwise. This because it is pointless to cast it on empty graveyards, and because you want opponent to spend their removals on anything else you cast before. Once Scarab Gob hits the field, we'll be too busy with our mana activating its ability to cast most of our cards anyway. Because of this, overloading on spells that cost 2 is very important, as they can be played on top of God's ability. And 4 cmc instants like Glimmer and Contempt are important too, because is you have God and pass the turn with 4 untapped lands and cards in your hand, the possibilities are endless. Thus, Liliana and Confiscation Oup are really not well positioned to help our strategy.
Torrential Gearhulk #2 is more important than Vraska's Contempt #4. It can cast a Contempt from the graveyard anyway, and it's body is not only a 4 turns clock, but can survive Glorybringer's fire and block other Gearhulks, Scarab God, Hazoret, Rhonas, 4/4 Zombies, etc.
Thanks for sharing these insights! Made me reconsider adding back fatal push and glimmer of genius. Just to highlight though, Rhonas the Indomitable will still destroy torrential gearhulk because of deathtouch.
As for me, I was fortunate enough to participate in two different store championships over the weekend. I finished 2nd place in the first day and was bested by an Esper God Pharaoh's Gift deck. My Scarab God succumbed to a Lost Legacy in both games 2 and 3 and made the battle uphill from there. I was on the verge of turning the tides on game 3 but my opponent got lucky in drawing consecutive Noxious Gearhulk to destroy whatever creatures I have left.
The second day was a lot tougher as I went to a bigger store with more experienced players. I finished 10th place and was defeated twice on Grixis mirror matches. One of them ended up as the store champion that day. It's interesting to note that he played Negate in the main and it really helped him a lot in countering Vraska's Contempt thereby protecting his Chandra and / or Scarab God. He also played Champion of Wits and Glimmer of Genius and he boarded in Dire Fleet Daredevil. I must admit that I was not a fan of Champion of Wits in this deck but the card filtering and card advantage was what made him win.
All in all, I was happy with the results. It just means that I need to practice more and polish my game play. I love the deck even though it gets a little grindy on several matchups. :p:p
Is anybody still on this deck? I feel midrange/reanimator shell fits the new Nicol Bolas, the Ravager very well and i'm going to try it out for the last couple of months Liliana, Death's Majesty and The Scarab God are in standard.
Since it's a mostly proven shell it shouldn't be to hard to make it work.
What do you think of this deck? What card could be in it from the latest sets like maybe Goblin Instigator or Exclusion Mage and card what shouldn't in an open meta?
I'm planning to use this on FNM.
for help against U/B Azcanta's
and as a general color fixer
it comes into play untapped.
with a bunch of 1 drop removals you can still sac it on turn 3 and cast something.
Yup! I do play River's Rebuke on the sideboard for tokens deck. Consign // Oblivion is pretty cool too as you can cast the bounce much earlier than Commit. Although I guess we would need the additional 5 mana that same turn or perhaps have a counter ready in hand when they re-cast it.
I also play a one-off in my deck and I like it! Taking a page from the pre-banning Temur Energy's book haha. As they say, "What's worse than killing their creature? Steal it!"
Anyway, just to share my experience this deck, I joined 2 events last weekend: PPTQ and a Standard Showdown. Didn't do so well in the PPTQ and ended up with a 2-3. But had a 3-0 in the showdown.
I lost to the following decks:
Mono-Red: I think it's fair to say that Grixis Energy generally has a good match up against mono-red. Magma spray is really a must as mentioned by moodles. Vraska's Contempt helps not only in dealing with Hazoret and Phoenix but to stop the bleeding with the life gain. I'm thinking of adding Moment of Craving in the sideboard. It was a good fight until I got short on lands on game 3 and I'm on the draw.
Green Black Ramp: I lost twice because of Carnage Tyrant...two of them! Nothing you can really do about it unless you have the right card at the right moment. Thinking of perhaps adding Vona's Hunger or Doomfall. But since the GB Ramp played Wildest Dreams perhaps Doomfall would be better.
Esper Approach: I'm not sure if this really is a bad match-up or I was just paying poorly but I just couldn't out-counter them and the white black portion just has the entire arsenal of removal / disabler of key cards. I did win a game though when Dreamstealer lived for a few turns and they had mana shortage as well.
I won over the following decks:
White Black Vampires: Rekindling Phoenix helped me trade blows and kept their creatures at bay. Bouncing Radiant Destiny with Commit // Memory during combat was one of the key moments that made me win.
Mono Black Aggro: Whirler Virtuoso was key in this game since they played a lot of one drops. I also managed to confiscate their Bone Picker to clear the airways.
Sultai Control: Dreamstealer and Glint-Sleeve Siphoner gets out of hand when left unchecked for even just a few turns. The deck splashed green for Carnage Tyrant but I was lucky he didn't draw it or perhaps didn't have the right mana to play it.
Mardu Vehicles: Aside from Magma Spray to deal with Scrapheap Scrounger , Rekindling Phoenix was again the key card here as it was able to block Heart of Kiran and return unscathed next turn.
Overall, I'm satisfied with how it all went. I just need to practice more to polish my plays and correct my mistakes. I'm also toying with the idea of using Mastermind's Acquisition in the main.
Here is the list I have. Inputs are very much welcome!
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Whirler Virtuoso
2 Rekindling Phoenix
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Glorybringer
2 The Scarab God
1 Torrential Gearhulk
Spells (18)
3 Magma Spray
3 Harnessed Lightning
2 Abrade
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Essence Scatter
2 Supreme Will
1 Glimmer of Genius
3 Vraska's Contempt
1 Confiscation Coup
1 Commit // Memory
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Lands (26)
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Aether Hub
3 Spirebluff Canal
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Fetid Pools
3 Canyon Slough
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Field of Ruin
1 Chandra's Defeat
2 Deadeye Tracker
2 Duress
3 Negate
3 Dreamstealer
1 Vraska's Contempt
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1 River's Rebuke
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Seekers' Squire
4 Whirler Virtuoso
2 Champion of Wits
4 Rekindling Phoenix
3 Glorybringer
3 The Scarab God
Spells (10)
3 Magma Spray
3 Harnessed Lightning
4 Vraska's Contempt
4 Aether Hub
4 Canyon Slough
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Fetid Pools
4 Spirebluff Canal
3 Mountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Duress
1 Magma Spray
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Essence Scatter
2 Negate
1 Cartouche of Ambition
1 Champion of Wits
3 Sweltering Suns
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Angrath, the Flame-Chained
I drew this up myself after playing other builds of Grixis, and some of the Naya/GR Monsters decks, to get an idea of what the format is about. I built it closer in style to the Monsters deck.
My main "innovations" are to the mana base and the inclusion of Seekers' Squire and Champion of Wits.
The more "stock" manabases with Grixis are fine, but I was nonetheless able to get the numbers to a very comfortable spot while including a lot of lands that will virtually always enter untapped. Four Aether Hub and six basics will always enter untapped, and the four Dragonskull Summit have twelve lands that will let them enter untapped (eight duals of the right type, four Mountain, one Swamp), which means that they should reliably be online by turn 3 or so, with exception to the games where you draw multiple Spirebluff Canal and rightfully play those out first.
You have eight untapped turn-1 red sources that aren't Aether Hub, which means you can have Magma Spray online around 2/3 of the time for turn 1. You will probably choose to have it online much less frequently because you want to play a tapped land to get your colors online, but you do have the option.
The mana has been excellent thus far. I have seventeen black sources and six creatures that can dig for lands, so I can reliably cast Vraska's Contempt, the only double-black spell. I have fourteen blue sources, which is enough for the light touch of blue that the deck makes; and I have nineteen red sources, which is ample to do anything I want with the many red spells in the deck.
I added the creatures for a couple of reasons.
(1) I'm more comfortable playing a deck with a lot of creatures in it. These guys are taking up the 11th-17th removal/interactive slots, and I prefer not to play too many reactive cards. They're essentially the same as the umpteenth removal spells, but they can get in chip shots, which make a significant difference when you're loaded up on 4-power flying beaters.
(2) In this format, most of the cards that cost under 4cc aren't major threats. You don't need a big pile of spot removal to beat them, just need to play to board and buy time for your mythics to outclass them.
(3) The creatures are very good at making sure you hit land drops. This deck needs three things: its curve-topping mythics that win the game, lands to cast those mythics, and time to make those land drops. The creatures help find the lands and block or otherwise play to board, making time. They even dig to those mythics as well.
The sideboard is a total scattershot mess right now, I'm just testing a bunch of cards that might interest me. Once I get some more game 1 reps in with this deck against the field, I'll have an idea of what I'm supposed to be playing in the sideboard.
This deck feels like old-school Elspeth-Siege Rhino Abzan. Highly recommend taking it for a spin!
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Over and over it was fast starts by aggressive opponents that caused me most difficulty. Having recently dropped all my fatal pushes for red removal, I think I may have gone too far. Perhaps one or two pushes are worth keeping main deck.
Pia Nalar is a nice 3 drop that synergies well with whirler virtuoso but two is plenty. There may also be room for two of another 2-drop alongside siphoner. Dire-fleet daredevil may be that card. Gifted aetherborne would be great except for its BB cost.
At the top end, a suite of 4 Phoenix, 3 Glorybringer and 2 Scarab Gods is serving well. Generally, these seem to be enough to exhaust opponents’ exile effects and burst through for lethal given time.
Other value cards for me today include Gonti, Doomfall and Magma Spray.
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
2 Dire Fleet Daredevil
4 Whirler Virtuoso
4 Rekindling Phoenix
4 Glorybringer
2 The Scarab God
Spells (13)
2 Magma Spray
3 Abrade
2 Chart a Course
1 Essence Scatter
4 Vraska's Contempt
1 Confiscation Coup
4 Aether Hub
4 Canyon Slough
3 Dragonskull Summit
2 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Spirebluff Canal
3 Mountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Chandra's Defeat
4 Duress
1 Essence Scatter
2 Negate -or- Lost Legacy
3 Sweltering Suns
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Tetzimoc, Primal Death
I'll piggyback off my last post which explained the basic angle I'm trying to take.
After some testing, Seekers' Squire and Champion of Wits were good and I will stand by them forever... but... I realized once I added a 27th land that I didn't really need all the smoothing. I happened upon Chart a Course which was sick and filled in the gap left by those guys. Champion gave the deck a bit of lategame edge it's now lacking, but it's not a huge loss -- it's almost a benefit not to have to play the front side, which was already really stretching the imagination to be Constructed-caliber.
I wanted another two-drop, and I ended up trying out Dire Fleet Daredevil. Daredevil is awesome! The body plays better than it looks; you can totally just run it out on turn 2 to get on the board. Daredevil scales admirably as the game goes long. I don't think you can play four of him, because you'd rather not have to make him your turn 2 play. But, counting Chart a Course, you now have eight proactive t2 plays that you're not embarrassed about making, in addition to being able to hold up removal.
I also found that I liked Glorybringer more than The Scarab God, so I cut a God for a Glorybringer. Glorybringer turns the corner quicker and for less mana investment than the God.
Speaking of removal, I tuned that some more too. Harnessed Lightning wasn't what I wanted it to be. It's still a great card, but all the spells I have in here do more things that I want. Magma Spray costs one mana and exiles, Abrade hits artifacts, Contempt hits everything I need to hit, Coup is Contempt on steroids, and Essence Scatter is a miser card that has a timing restriction compared to Lightning, but is more efficient when you can play through the restriction.
In the sideboard, I favor a discard-focused approach to control decks. I'm thinking about Lost Legacy as a hammer against fringe strategies, but also as a way to strip The Scarab God from opposing decks, because TSG decks' overall power level plummets without him available as a draw, to the point where I think I can fight through being down a card. I also have four sweeper effects to beat go-wide decks, which have been a problem. I play two Chandra as an extra threat, Tetzimoc as a hybrid sweeper + midrange trump, Chandra's Defeat for Hazoret and Phoenix/Glorybringer decks, and another Essence Scatter as a clean answer to the format's best threats.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Just on the discard point you make. I had good times today with doomfall - a 3 CMC contempt without the life gain OR a duress that takes a critter. Flexible and disruptive.
Congrats! I agree, Mono-Red is really a pain to deal with. I'm in the same situation as you now wherein I removed all my fatal pushes in favor of magma spray. Have you tried Moment of Craving ? I watched a couple of GP Memphis vids and the card seemed to keep the match up against mono-red manageable. I've yet to try it, too.
I'm really curious about Dire Fleet Daredevil as it gives you not only card advantage but a decent blocker as well for mono-red or mono-black due to it's first strike. And wow, that's a really bold move removing Harnessed Lightning completely! Sometimes I used to generate energy for free to create another thopter or draw a card from siphoner. Let us know how it turns out!
I'm on the same boat as you guys on the discard strategy. As for me Dreamstealer is my weapon of choice. Once it goes unanswered for at least 3 turns, the game's in the bag. At least from my experience anyway.
Here's the list I have from last time's tweaking and had awesome results from yesterday's standard showdown. I removed Glimmer of Genius in favor of Arguel's Blood Fast . It works great with the Phoenix as well when transformed, giving you life in dire situations. And Mastermind's Acquisition gives you access to your toolbox for some unexpected Game 1 match ups.
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Whirler Virtuoso
3 Rekindling Phoenix
2 Glorybringer
2 The Scarab God
1 Torrential Gearhulk
Spells (17)
3 Magma Spray
3 Harnessed Lightning
2 Abrade
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Essence Scatter
1 Supreme Will
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
3 Vraska's Contempt
1 Mastermind's Acquisition
1 Confiscation Coup
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Lands (26)
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Canyon Slough
4 Aether Hub
3 Spirebluff Canal
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Fetid Pools
2 Mountain
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Field of Ruin
1 Deadeye Tracker
2 Duress
3 Negate
3 Dreamstealer
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Lost Legacy
1 Vraska's Contempt
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Commit // Memory
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
2 Dire Fleet Daredevil
4 Whirler Virtuoso
1 Pia Nalaar
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
4 Rekindling Phoenix
3 Glorybringer
2 The Scarab God
Spells
2 Fatal Push
1 Magma Spray
1 Chart a Course
4 Harnessed Lightning
2 Abrade
3 Vraska's Contempt
4 Aether Hub
4 Spirebluff Canal
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Canyon Slough
3 Fetid Pools
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Swamp
3 Mountain
3 Duress
2 Doomfall
2 Chandra's Defeat
1 Magma Spray
1 Abrade
2 Deadeye Tracker
1 Consign/Oblivion
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Rivers Rebuke
1 Sweltering Suns
A few things that still need sorting out:
The mana - I'd like another red source in there. May need to lose a fetid pool or drowned catacomb for a canyon slough or dragonskull summit. Also, the absence of a basic island feels wrong.
The missing fourth Vraska's Contempt - Unsure whether the two doomfalls make up for it.
Two Abrades main deck - Haven't faced a vehicles deck for a while but I know they're still around. Gearhulks are manageable.
Pia Nalaar - Her synergy is great but she could be an extra chart a course or removal spell.
Gonti - Awesome against slower and mid-range decks. Makes all the difference when he steals a bomb like Scarab God or Glorybringer. He did that so many times yesterday, twice against the same opponent. Comes out against weenies. Doubled against control. Great Scarab God target. It's just possible that one is optimum though bearing in mind the curve.
No counters - I don't miss the negates, but essence scatter can be a back breaker against mid-range.
Harnessed Lightning - All four. All day long. It forces the opponent to make choices based on what's in your energy pool, and sometimes they daren't risk it. That said, I'm very interested to read what Scasseden has to say about his experiences without them.
No Planeswalkers - I was running a single Chandra but could not keep her on the battlefield. Too often she's a one-shot removal spell then dead, and I don't want to have to expend creature resources guarding her only to have her contempted or burned. But, when she sticks she's great.
I wish I had room for - Another Chart a Course, the fourth Contempt.
I wish there was - a better sweeper.
Harnessed Lightning obviously has some synergies with the other energy cards, but what I found was that without the "free" energy from the green cards that got banned in January, it didn't reliably kill what I needed to kill anymore. The format has also shifted more heavily toward creatures with hexproof (Bristling Hydra, Carnage Tyrant), indestructible (Hazoret the Fervent), or pseudo-indestructible (The Scarab God, Rekindling Phoenix). The remaining threats that matter are Torrential Gearhulk, which dies to Abrade much more reliably than Lightning; and Glorybringer, the one premier threat in the format for which I would actively be happy to have Lightning.
I like the broader coverage from Abrade more than Lightning's ability to hit Glorybringer, so I play Abrade instead.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Hope this note finds everyone winning with Grixis. When taking more of a control approach, I always get to 7+ turns hence I combo Locust god and Nezahal if playing blue black from the sideboard. It can get vicious. Anyone else here try that or more focused on mid range stomp?
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Whirler Virtuoso
2 Champion of Wits
4 Rekindling Phoenix
4 Glorybringer
2 The Scarab God
Spells (14)
4 Magma Spray
2 Abrade
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Cut // Ribbons
1 Sweltering Suns
4 Vraska's Contempt
4 Aether Hub
4 Canyon Slough
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Fetid Pools
3 Spirebluff Canal
2 Island
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Chandra's Defeat
4 Duress
2 Ammit Eternal
2 Lost Legacy
1 Sweltering Suns
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Hour of Devastation
Creatures
Since the last update, I cut down some of the expensive spells, which at one point included cutting the 4th Glorybringer. I'm back on it because I realized my issue wasn't the top end but the bottom end -- I didn't have consistent enough interaction with red's early drops, which made all the high drops a liability, since I couldn't block well enough to get to them at a stable life total.
I cut Daredevil, although I still think it's a very good card in the archetype. It's good but wasn't doing quite what I needed against red consistently; if they just don't draw a Lightning Strike or Shock and you don't have a Siphoner to hit, it's hard to play Daredevil in a timely manner.
I added Champion of Wits in the slot that I had previously devoted to Chart a Course, because I wanted to affect the board. Champ occasionally has some lategame power that comes in handy. Most Grixis players have used Champ in here at some point so I'll save on further elaboration.
In the sideboard, I added a pair of Ammit Eternal in order to put pressure on control decks and durdly decks. Eternal lines up really well against UB Control's removal: they have to have a revolt trigger for Fatal Push or two Moment of Craving to kill it without resorting to premium spells like Vraska's Contempt or a counterspell, and the more threats you have like this, the more likely you are to run them out of answers. Against decks that play one spell a turn and don't affect the board much (Ramp, GPG come to mind), Eternal is clocking for four a turn. I really like how this guy has played out of the board in this exact shell. I don't think stock Grixis can leverage him since stock Grixis doesn't have a clock to complement the Ammit, and Ammit isn't quite good enough to carry the load on his own. Curving him into Phoenix and Glorybringer is a hell of a different story.
Spells
I cut Confiscation Coup despite its high power level because it encouraged me to stretch the manabase too hard. I cut Chart for Champ and Daredevil for more removal spells (which is 99% of what Daredevil does anyhow) in an effort to shore up the red matchup. I'm experimenting with Cut // Ribbons and really digging it, the extra reach is pretty clutch when so many play patterns in midrange mirrors involve spending two turns playing Scarab God and then making a 4/4. If the 4/4 can't block fliers then the Phoenix -> Glorybringer -> Ribbons curve really punishes that line of play; hell it's straight 20 damage if you make your sixth land drop!
I'm up to four Sprays and two Abrades because of red.
The two interesting one-ofs in the maindeck are Arguel's Blood Fast and Sweltering Suns. Suns is a game 1 out to tokens and some red draws. Since it cycles, the opportunity cost of maindecking one is pretty low. Blood Fast is a hammer in attrition games, which can be difficult for this build of Grixis, and has some narrow splash utility against red by "naturally" flipping into Temple of Aclazotz and gaining life repeatedly with Scarab God and Phoenix.
In the sideboard, I cut Tetzimoc and the third Sweltering Suns for a pair of Hour of Devastation. These are primarily for the go-wide token decks, but could be justified against red aggressive decks of all kinds (monored/Rx aggro, GR/GRx monsters).
Lands
Since I cut Coup, I got to streamline the manabase more. Not much to say except that it's great now. I cut the 27th land because I added Champ and Blood Fast.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I like the cut of your jib, kid! The deck looks tight, however, I have some suggestions that may improve it a little bit. I don't usually play this deck but I have played against it every week at FNM or Standard Showdown for the past couple of months.
Maindeck;
I recommend that you move the 2 Champion of Wits to the sideboard and you play the 2 Chandras main deck instead of them. The reason is that Champions are only good against control decks or maybe other midrange decks but they're not what you want to have in your deck against mono red, R/G monsters or even token decks. Against all those decks having Chandra main deck would work much better, at least you can kill a creature the turn she comes into play.
The other change I would suggest is taking out the 1 Arguel's blood fast and play a second Sweltering suns because again if you're playing against aggro decks or mirror match the sweltering suns would be much more useful and the arguel's blood fast is really not a card you want to top deck late game or cast it any time during the mid-late game.
Also, for lands I'd cut 2 Aether hub and 1 Island and play 3 Swamps and 5 mountains instead because you need black mana more than blue mana, and also it's not that good to have too many aether hubs since the only energy provider you have is siphoner and virtuoso. If you were playing 4 Harnessed lightning then it would make sense to play 4 hubs but not with just siphoner/virtuoso.
Sideboard:
Since one of the sweltering suns is moved to the main deck you have 1 empty space and also I think the 3 Duress are more than enough and you don't need to play 4. So instead of these 2 cards you could play 2 more ammit eternals because I think those cards are really good and underrated and they wreck control decks since they hit for a lot.
So the deck would look like this:
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Whirler Virtuoso
4 Rekindling Phoenix
4 Glorybringer
2 The Scarab God
Spells (14)
4 Magma Spray
2 Abrade
2 Cut // Ribbons
2 Sweltering Suns
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Lands (26)
2 Aether Hub
4 Canyon Slough
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Fetid Pools
3 Spirebluff Canal
1 Island
5 Mountain
3 Swamp
2 Chandra's Defeat
3 Duress
4 Ammit Eternal
2 Lost Legacy
2 Hour of Devastation
2 Champion of Wits
As I said, I think the deck looks tight, let me know if you chose to make any of the changes I suggested and how it went if you did!
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What about Hostage Taker against Coup? Whether we kill Hostage Taker or they do, we get our creature back. The only bad scenario is that they also Coup our Hostage Taker and are able to cast the creature before we kill the Hostage Taker.
Edit: A review of midrange decks is here. Whether you agree with the conclusions or not, it seems like an informed overview worth considering.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
* Doomfall continues to perform well, both as a flexible discard spell and a further exile effect beyond spray and contempt. I have not regretted drawing it yet.
* dire fleet daredevil is ok. As Scasseden said, he’s more often a turn 2 speed bump against fast aggro than anything. I didn’t have the chance to play him later and use his extra ability today, but in the absence of a better two-drop i’ll Keep him for now
I don't think they can cast the hostage if they use Coup on Hostage Taker, right? "You" in the ability refers to the controller of the ETB trigger of Hostage Taker, so taking control of the Hostage Taker after it's hit the field shouldn't affect who has the ability to cast the card from exile.
I think Mengucci is right that Coup causes a lot of problems for players on the 4-5cc threats like my list, but I also don't think Coup is actually seeing significant play right now: it's only showing up in any amount in one deck (Grixis Energy) and at most as a 1-of, and often not even that. I don't think Coup should be the reason we're off of it.
But with that said, if you really need an answer to Coup, then Hostage Taker is pretty clean.
I think the real question to be asked is this: can you beat Hazored aggro decks with the higher density of creatures?
I used to think they would give an edge, since you turn the corner quicker with Phoenix and Glorybringer.
I'm starting to think that isn't really true for two reasons: (1) Scarab God "turns the corner" about as fast, even though it's a slower clock than Glorybringer; (2) playing the extra threats means you have less spot removal, and you want a lot of it to beat red's early draws reliably. Phoenix is great, but maybe Glorybringer isn't what we really want?
Glorybringer's real edge is against the white go-wide decks more than anything else -- being able to fly over tokens and clock is a big deal. The exert ability is also a big deal against Winding Constrictor decks. I'm starting to wonder if maybe Phoenix is good enough at that job on his own, though, and whether we might benefit from cutting Glorybringer for extra interaction (or maybe even something like Gearhulk up the curve).
I really do like Phoenix above the extra marginal interactive spells though.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
The weakness that keeps frustrating me is our inherent lack of removal for enchantments and artifacts.
So, despite putting up decent results across the last three tournaments (1 win with 3 top 4 finishes) i’ve decided to experiment.
While keeping the big red core and black for disruption and card advantage (siphoner), I’m going to see what happens when I substitute green for blue.
People keep telling me that Jund is a stronger shell for the Phoenix/Glorybringer shell. We’ll see -
Considering Phoenix, I think it's because we have better spells to play at 4 cmc : Contempt, Chandra, Gonti and Commit//Memory.
Glorybringer is awkwardly at 5 mana, like the God, Liliana and Confiscation Coup. We don't want to many spells on that curve, and we should want 3 Gods in our list. That leaves 2 slots open at 5 mana.
I agree with @Spotbran : Glorybringer and Phoenix better fit a RGx Monsters deck. Green is required to ramp them and aggressively profit from these cards.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
- 4 Aether Hub
- 4 Canyon Slough
- 4 Dragonskull Summit
- 4 Drowned Catacomb
- 4 Fetid Pools
- 4 Spirebluff Canal
- 2 Mountain
This manabase provides 21 B, 18 R and 16 U. There are 10 Swamp/Mountain for Dragonskull Summit, but only 8 Swamp/Island for Drowned Catacomb. This translates into 89% and 81% chances of playing one of these two check-land untapped on T4.Question is : Would it be better to add a Swamp and remove a Spirebluff Canal in order to have more basics to look at for my check-lands to ETB untapped? This at the cost of less reliable T4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance and T5 Confiscation Coup for color considerations? Or would they be more reliably cast on curve because check-lands are more likely to ETB untapped?
I would have liked to squeeze in some Evolving Wilds to trigger Fatal Push's Revolt, but the opportunity cost of losing the Cycle Lands seems too great. To play the check-lands untapped, I would be forced to fetch a Swamp (which doesn’t fix my color needs). Or a Mountain to play Dragonskull Summit, combination of both doesn’t fix my U needs (same goes for Island and Drowned Catacomb vs R needs). In the end, either Fatal Push doesn't make the cut, or it does but with no real hope of triggering Revolt. Opinion?
This is the list I will most probably register for the Store Championship (Gameday) :
4 Aether Hub
4 Canyon Slough
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Spirebluff Canal
2 Mountain
Creatures (16)
4 Glint-Sleeve Syphoner
4 Whirler Virtuoso
2 Champion of Wits
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Hostage Taker
3 The Scarab God
1 Torrential Gearhulk
3 Magma Spray
4 Harnessed Lightning
1 Consign//Oblivion
2 Doomfall
3 Vraska's Contempt
1 Committ//Memory
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
1 Confiscation Coup
2 Abrade
2 Arguel's Bloodfast
1 Confiscation Coup
3 Duress
2 Fiery Cannonade
1 Jace's Defeat
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
2 Negate
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
I haven't gone that deep into the maths of mana base, but to those who are into that, here's a link I saw:
Anyway, my answer to the question is yes (replace 1 spirebluff with 1 swamp). And below are the reasons which are based only on my personal experience:
- the 4th spirebluff will always come into play tapped anyway
- the need for the reliable red mana by T4 is understandable, but the blue / double blue won't be needed until T5, T6. I'm pretty confident the drowned catacomb, fetid pool, aether hub will be able to cover that. Besides, you only have two cards that require double blue and they are rather situational and not exactly a 'must-cast' by T5, T6
- an added swamp increases your chance of bring dragonskull and drowned catacomb untapped
- an added swamp increases your chance of T2 glint-sleeve
- in the event that i get field of ruin-ed by my opponent, it gives me the option to search for that swamp in the event that that's the mana color i need
Hope this helps in any way. Good luck to us who will be playing this weekend!
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Thanks for sharing these insights! Made me reconsider adding back fatal push and glimmer of genius. Just to highlight though, Rhonas the Indomitable will still destroy torrential gearhulk because of deathtouch.
As for me, I was fortunate enough to participate in two different store championships over the weekend. I finished 2nd place in the first day and was bested by an Esper God Pharaoh's Gift deck. My Scarab God succumbed to a Lost Legacy in both games 2 and 3 and made the battle uphill from there. I was on the verge of turning the tides on game 3 but my opponent got lucky in drawing consecutive Noxious Gearhulk to destroy whatever creatures I have left.
The second day was a lot tougher as I went to a bigger store with more experienced players. I finished 10th place and was defeated twice on Grixis mirror matches. One of them ended up as the store champion that day. It's interesting to note that he played Negate in the main and it really helped him a lot in countering Vraska's Contempt thereby protecting his Chandra and / or Scarab God. He also played Champion of Wits and Glimmer of Genius and he boarded in Dire Fleet Daredevil. I must admit that I was not a fan of Champion of Wits in this deck but the card filtering and card advantage was what made him win.
All in all, I was happy with the results. It just means that I need to practice more and polish my game play. I love the deck even though it gets a little grindy on several matchups. :p:p
Since it's a mostly proven shell it shouldn't be to hard to make it work.
I'm currently on something like this:
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Aether Hub
3 Canyon Slough
2 Fetid Pools
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures 19
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Gifted Aetherborn
4 Champion of Wits
3 Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 The Scarab God
4 Fatal Push
1 Syncopate
4 Abrade
2 Essense Scatter
2 Supreme Will
1 Vraska's Contempt
2 Liliana, Death's Majesty
3 Duress
2 Essence Scatter
4 Negate
2 Lost Legacy
2 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Vraska's Contempt
What do you think of this deck? What card could be in it from the latest sets like maybe Goblin Instigator or Exclusion Mage and card what shouldn't in an open meta?
I'm planning to use this on FNM.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -