So I have been kicking this idea around my head for about a week or so, and I have decided to out source for some help and ideas. I have been religiously been reading just about every deck list that I have seen on these boards and about 85% are aggro, and 15% control. 0% combo,...0% combo?!?! What the effin eff?!?!? What's a format without some kind of combo deck? So I have been debating which route to take with a combo deck and have decided that combo/control will be the best way to go because of all the aggro that will be present, and every one knows that combo generally beats control. So, with all that being said, I have decided that Wild Pair / Whitemane Lion combo,(well,.. actually, Wild Pair and any other creature combo) would be the most abusable and most resilient and not to mention did pretty well during block season.
Having decided on which way to go, I kinda noticed the ridiculous creatures with evoke from Lorwyn, that would net some good card advantage with Wild Pair in play, (heck, even without Wild Pair in play) So on to some easy choices.
Mulldrifter - Holy Eff! this guy is insane! For those of you that don't quite understand, here is a typical scenario, evoke Mulldrifter with Wild Pair in play, stack triggers, go get another Mulldrifter / Whitemane Lion and draw 2 cards or set up your combo.
Shriekmaw - Ahhh, the 187 guy, did you know that if you cast a Wall of Roots, you get to off a creature!? Well, you do in this deck.
Whitemane Lion - The reusable tutor for the deck, plus saves your dudes!
Mystic Snake - Combo/Control, word on the street says this guy counters spells. The Tech!
And there we go, I would like some good criticism and thoughts on the deck and what everyone thinks. Trying to get this list ready for states too, so post as much as possible.
I really like your deck idea, and I agree that Familiar's Ruse can definitely use a spot here. I'd consider dropping Ponder for Riftwing Cloudskate; and maybe drop Delay for Familiar's Ruse. Otherwise, I really like the list!
You should flatter yourself that you spotted the interaction between Evoke and Wild Pair.
Yes, I said "should". This is an honest-to-goodness compliment.
It seems that what you're going for... is the ability to tack on utility, dare I say, spell-like effects onto the playing of creatures which inevitably occurs in a game of Magic. To that end, getting the Wild Pair into play is very crucial, is it not?
A tip: If you use Wall of Roots in response to Wild Pair, it will be a 0/4 when Wild Pair checks its stats. Please forgive me if you already saw this.
Also, Venser's subtitle is Shaper Savant.
Ponder doesn't seem to fit. Setting up early turns... meh. Later, Wild Pair will shuffle away whatever you set up. Heck, it becomes your card selector.
Why Coalition Relic? Why not just get lands?
Yes, so it seems that discard is pretty good against this deck, any ideas?
Pray you don't see any? I mean, what discard is there? And will it be run in the aggro meta?
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OMG I didn't know that about Wall of Roots, but now that I think about it, it does make sense. I chose Coalition Relic because of the color dependency on the deck and that it would seemingly able me to cast Wild Pair ASAP,(as soon as plausible ). But now having done a bit of testing, I really don't like it, but I struggle to find a better way, Lotus Bloom just seems kinda clunky, and just feels like I have to commit a bit too much. As for ponder, it's been either really good or really bad, so it is indeed rather meh. I have to go to work soon but I will think of some stuff that might be better.
Keep the posts coming. We must assemble The Brain, and I don't mean Gleemax.
Is there some reason why you're not using Wild Pair for one of its most broken uses, i.e. Tutoring specific one-ofs? Some situational cards that fall in the 4 and 5 total P/T range:
OMG I didn't know that about Wall of Roots, but now that I think about it, it does make sense. I chose Coalition Relic because of the color dependency on the deck and that it would seemingly able me to cast Wild Pair ASAP,(as soon as plausible ).
Red > White
Instead of Whitemane Lion, go with Grinning Ignus. He is both mana acceleration *and* reusable 2/2 (who only costs R to cast/recast instead of 1W like Lion!). Third turn put down the Ignus, then fourth turn add a land, return the Ignus, and bam - Wild Pair.
Next turn (with 5 mana perhaps?) you can play Ignus, (search Riders) destroy a land, return Ignus play Ignus, (search another Riders) destroy a land, return Ignus play Ignus, (search another Riders) destroy a THIRD land, then attack for 6 with your hasty Riders.
Next turn you could even use Gaia's Blessing to shuffle them back in your deck... and do it again. (Just an option!)
Also Ingot Chewer can be evoked on the cheap (one R!), eating an opposing Relic or Rack while tutoring up something nice (Enforcer? Stalking Yeti? <- Kills critters and returns to hand, too! Voidstone Gargoyle even, for opposing spells?)... Briarhorn too (and Briarhorn even can first give itself +3/+3, allowing you to search up a finisher like Akroma or one of the big Elementals).
Relic seems very strong, as it can accelerate two mana, allowing for turn 4 wild pair.
I like the idea of shriekmaw with the wildpair. Another option people toy with is Primal Forcemage, which lets you turn white main lion into: 1W: Bogardon Hellkite
this is a very interesting concept. i think i agree that red is better then white but i think i also feel like the deck really needs to have some blue in it both for the digging/searching effects and the awesomeness of Venser and Mulldrifter in this deck.
I think you need to be able to play what you draw, even if Wild pair is nowhere to be seen. To that end, WUG offers more consistency than R/G/U, and more options than just R/G. Plus you can play Blink if necessary, I had a list I called "2/2 187" since everything is basically a 2/2.... It does fairly well against basically everything. Lots of Burn in the early game sucks though.
I originally had Red in the deck when I first drew it up, but it gave it a janky feel, everything seemed to be just shoved together and nothing seem to flow, having said that, I find that the U/G/W version is far more stable against the unstable metagame. I am gonna work on a semi-toolbox version to help deal with certain things, I totally forgot about True Believer, that guy is good against Tarmorack.
I have to say that I am going to stick with the Coalition Relic route for now, because of the transformable sideboard. I am indeed going to be removing Ponder, and adding another Mulldrifter if there is a better draw spell that I am not thinking of,(and no Telling Time doesn't count) please just tell me. But I will be back with a new list by tomorrow.
ive never played wild pair but it looks awesome. the only problems i see:
1) the deck isnt so amazing without wild pair, so we need a better way to search it
2) i know this is probably wrong, and ill admit ive never played the deck but wild pair seems win more. its a lot of mana already, so id expect it to finish the game on its own. it seems that at that point theyll either counter or destroy it, or you will just have been able to win anyway wit another 6 drop. but im probably (and hopefull, cuz i like this deck) wrong.
3) with all the cards youre going to have to spend on mana accel and on getting pair out, it seems to me as though this deck would run out of gas quite quickly. mulldrifter i guess is good but are there any other options for drawing cards?
I am going to build my own list, but im going to make it very much based on tempo, because i believe a turn 4 wild pair can create some insane turn 5 bouncing. the only thing is, im going to want G for pair, U for search and blink flashback and bounce, W for blink and maybe lion, and red for ignus/riders. but 4 colors is too much i think
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck *********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like to to occur and validate you.
Both are examples of creatures who can control size for the purpose of Wild Pair. Just stack the triggers in the order preferable to you.
... it's probably too techy, though. You should stay close to your aggro-control roots. Just play a modest game until Wild Pair shows up, and then reap the card advantage and extra utility.
There's a difficulty with any deck using enchantments. They get no tutor love! The only place you see 'enchantment' in rules text is on enchantment removal (and enchantresses, but what's up with those ladies?)
You're going to want to cash in on as many multilands as possible. Think you can squeeze tribal duals in there? Probably not.
How are the Vivid lands working out? Wouldn't they be slow? And they can only fix you twice.
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As crazy as it sounds I would definitely test this deck WITHOUT the Wild Pairs, if it does well than this deck has a place in the new standard. Personally I think the deck has great potential. With all the 187s and Evoking creatures the deck can be tuned quite easily to LD, Bounce, Removal, etc. All those sorts of tricks also generate CA too. I wouldn't expect this deck to see many of the same colors among decklists (except green obviously)
As crazy as it sounds I would definitely test this deck WITHOUT the Wild Pairs, if it does well than this deck has a place in the new standard. Personally I think the deck has great potential. With all the 187s and Evoking creatures the deck can be tuned quite easily to LD, Bounce, Removal, etc. All those sorts of tricks also generate CA too. I wouldn't expect this deck to see many of the same colors among decklists (except green obviously)
are you sayind wild pair is win more or that just to test without just to see if its good enough if you dont draw it?
the deck is dieing for CA. drawing multiple wild pairs is =[. anyway, yeah i think the best way to do this deck is ld/bounce/etc. can somebody reassure me that wild pair is not win more please?
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck *********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like to to occur and validate you.
Its not. It just wins you the game if it comes down early enough, no matter if you were winning or losing before it, evry time.
In fact, a comparison can be drawn between saying Wild pair is a win more card in this deck and saying D-Storm is a win more card as you may as well cast a Hellkite-you just dont win without it so easily. I mean, this deck can go the distance without Pair in the same way 1 Hellkite can go the distance, but it is unlikely.
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck *********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like to to occur and validate you.
True Believer is fantastic as a one of, and I think that the final thing this deck really needs is a 2/2 that has a 187 Lifegain ability, and no I am not thinking of Venerable Monk. Mainly the Issue I see is the reach that Tarmorack and W/R Stoutarm Agro have on my life total, even After I have bounced or countered most of thier stuff.
wait a sec so what are the better colors to play the deck?
i guess it has to be UG+X will it be W or B or maybe R ?
what is more consistente?
Obviously G, as Wild Pair is green.
U is generally necessary, as card draw to find Wild Pair is definitely needed. No Wild Pair, not much of a deck!
I like R, as grinning ignus and avalanche riders are pretty awesome. Ignus is both acceleration *and* an engine.
W is also a good choice - W has some good 2/2s (True Believer), and then you have Whitemane Lion instead of Ignus. The Lion is not acceleration, but he allows tricks - you can grab Mystic Snake or Vesner in response to a spell.
Black? No, no. What bounce 2/2 do you have to search out everything? Can't make it work.
I'd honestly have to play with both of them to find the "right" build.
True Believer is fantastic as a one of, and I think that the final thing this deck really needs is a 2/2 that has a 187 Lifegain ability, and no I am not thinking of Venerable Monk. Mainly the Issue I see is the reach that Tarmorack and W/R Stoutarm Agro have on my life total, even After I have bounced or countered most of thier stuff.
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck *********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like to to occur and validate you.
When you play it, it does (or even as a 1/1 if you remove a counter for some reason). But if you want to fetch it from your library, it's a 0/0... so your 2/2s will not fetch it out with Wild Pair.
theres always highway robber, but that sucks. what about herd gnarl or whatever its called, 2/2 that gets +2+2 till EOT when a dude comes into play. anyway my super secret tech is 1 siege gang commander. gotta test it more though
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck *********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like to to occur and validate you.
Okay here is my newest list. I will talk about this deck more later on today, after I get some much needed sleep and tell you guys about card choices and all that good stuff. But until then, let me know what you think.
I think that between the relics and the vivid lands, you can splash red and/or black. I mean, a small splash of cards (looking at you, shriekmaw and avalanche riders) is still possible. Most of the time you won't even play them, if the deck works properly.
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We have laboured long to build a heaven, only to find it populated with horrors.
Having decided on which way to go, I kinda noticed the ridiculous creatures with evoke from Lorwyn, that would net some good card advantage with Wild Pair in play, (heck, even without Wild Pair in play) So on to some easy choices.
Mulldrifter - Holy Eff! this guy is insane! For those of you that don't quite understand, here is a typical scenario, evoke Mulldrifter with Wild Pair in play, stack triggers, go get another Mulldrifter / Whitemane Lion and draw 2 cards or set up your combo.
Shriekmaw - Ahhh, the 187 guy, did you know that if you cast a Wall of Roots, you get to off a creature!? Well, you do in this deck.
Whitemane Lion - The reusable tutor for the deck, plus saves your dudes!
Mystic Snake - Combo/Control, word on the street says this guy counters spells. The Tech!
Venser Shapeshifter - Again, counterspells, bounces stuff, pretty good.
Wall of Roots - Mana accels, tutors your 187 guy, slaps aggro in the face. Good times to be had by all!
So I am going to now present you with a rough list so we have a good starting point.
4x Terramorphic Expanse
3x Yavimaya Coast
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Gemstone Mine
4x Island
3x Plains
3x Forest
2x Mystic Snake
2x Venser, Shaper Savant
3x Mulldrifter
3x Whitemane Lion
1x Primal Forcemage
3x Bogardan Hellkite
4x Wall of Roots
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Riftwing Cloudskate
1x Aven Riftwatcher
3x Coalition Relic
3x Wild Pair
3x Momentary Blink
2x Prismatic Lens
3x Foresee
3x Eyes of the Wisent
3x Dodecapod
3x Krosan Grip
1x Aven Riftwatcher
1x Riftwing Cloudskate
And there we go, I would like some good criticism and thoughts on the deck and what everyone thinks. Trying to get this list ready for states too, so post as much as possible.
Trag3dy
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
Yes, I said "should". This is an honest-to-goodness compliment.
It seems that what you're going for... is the ability to tack on utility, dare I say, spell-like effects onto the playing of creatures which inevitably occurs in a game of Magic. To that end, getting the Wild Pair into play is very crucial, is it not?
A tip: If you use Wall of Roots in response to Wild Pair, it will be a 0/4 when Wild Pair checks its stats. Please forgive me if you already saw this.
Also, Venser's subtitle is Shaper Savant.
Ponder doesn't seem to fit. Setting up early turns... meh. Later, Wild Pair will shuffle away whatever you set up. Heck, it becomes your card selector.
Why Coalition Relic? Why not just get lands?
Pray you don't see any? I mean, what discard is there? And will it be run in the aggro meta?
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Keep the posts coming. We must assemble The Brain, and I don't mean Gleemax.
Trag3dy
Doran, the Siege Tower
Cloudchaser Kestrel (This could be necessary for the maindeck with the number of Oblivion Rings running around)
Gaddock Teeg
Saffi Eriksdotter
True Believer (hey, you said you had trouble with discard)
Sower of Temptation
Withered Wretch
Riftsweeper
Stonecloaker
Sulfur Elemental
At the very least I'l look at some of these for the sideboard.
Red > White
Instead of Whitemane Lion, go with Grinning Ignus. He is both mana acceleration *and* reusable 2/2 (who only costs R to cast/recast instead of 1W like Lion!). Third turn put down the Ignus, then fourth turn add a land, return the Ignus, and bam - Wild Pair.
Next turn (with 5 mana perhaps?) you can play Ignus, (search Riders) destroy a land, return Ignus play Ignus, (search another Riders) destroy a land, return Ignus play Ignus, (search another Riders) destroy a THIRD land, then attack for 6 with your hasty Riders.
Next turn you could even use Gaia's Blessing to shuffle them back in your deck... and do it again. (Just an option!)
Also Ingot Chewer can be evoked on the cheap (one R!), eating an opposing Relic or Rack while tutoring up something nice (Enforcer? Stalking Yeti? <- Kills critters and returns to hand, too! Voidstone Gargoyle even, for opposing spells?)... Briarhorn too (and Briarhorn even can first give itself +3/+3, allowing you to search up a finisher like Akroma or one of the big Elementals).
I like the idea of shriekmaw with the wildpair. Another option people toy with is Primal Forcemage, which lets you turn white main lion into: 1W: Bogardon Hellkite
Never a bad thing
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
3 Riftwing Cloudskate
1 Mystic Snake
3 Whitemane Lion
4 Mulldrifter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Vesuvan Shapeshifter
4 Wild Pair
3 Coalition Relic
3 Momentary Blink
4 Rune Snag
Lands: 23
4 Yavimiya Coast
2 Adarkar Wastes
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Nimbus Maze
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Brushland
4 Forest
3 Island
1 Plains
I have to say that I am going to stick with the Coalition Relic route for now, because of the transformable sideboard. I am indeed going to be removing Ponder, and adding another Mulldrifter if there is a better draw spell that I am not thinking of,(and no Telling Time doesn't count) please just tell me. But I will be back with a new list by tomorrow.
Keep those posts coming!
Trag3dy
1) the deck isnt so amazing without wild pair, so we need a better way to search it
2) i know this is probably wrong, and ill admit ive never played the deck but wild pair seems win more. its a lot of mana already, so id expect it to finish the game on its own. it seems that at that point theyll either counter or destroy it, or you will just have been able to win anyway wit another 6 drop. but im probably (and hopefull, cuz i like this deck) wrong.
3) with all the cards youre going to have to spend on mana accel and on getting pair out, it seems to me as though this deck would run out of gas quite quickly. mulldrifter i guess is good but are there any other options for drawing cards?
I am going to build my own list, but im going to make it very much based on tempo, because i believe a turn 4 wild pair can create some insane turn 5 bouncing. the only thing is, im going to want G for pair, U for search and blink flashback and bounce, W for blink and maybe lion, and red for ignus/riders. but 4 colors is too much i think
Kinsbaile Skirmisher
Both are examples of creatures who can control size for the purpose of Wild Pair. Just stack the triggers in the order preferable to you.
... it's probably too techy, though. You should stay close to your aggro-control roots. Just play a modest game until Wild Pair shows up, and then reap the card advantage and extra utility.
There's a difficulty with any deck using enchantments. They get no tutor love! The only place you see 'enchantment' in rules text is on enchantment removal (and enchantresses, but what's up with those ladies?)
You're going to want to cash in on as many multilands as possible. Think you can squeeze tribal duals in there? Probably not.
How are the Vivid lands working out? Wouldn't they be slow? And they can only fix you twice.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
are you sayind wild pair is win more or that just to test without just to see if its good enough if you dont draw it?
the deck is dieing for CA. drawing multiple wild pairs is =[. anyway, yeah i think the best way to do this deck is ld/bounce/etc. can somebody reassure me that wild pair is not win more please?
ah.thanks for clarifying.
I am also considering dropping the Rune Snags for Oblivion rings.
i guess it has to be UG+X will it be W or B or maybe R ?
what is more consistente?
Obviously G, as Wild Pair is green.
U is generally necessary, as card draw to find Wild Pair is definitely needed. No Wild Pair, not much of a deck!
I like R, as grinning ignus and avalanche riders are pretty awesome. Ignus is both acceleration *and* an engine.
W is also a good choice - W has some good 2/2s (True Believer), and then you have Whitemane Lion instead of Ignus. The Lion is not acceleration, but he allows tricks - you can grab Mystic Snake or Vesner in response to a spell.
Black? No, no. What bounce 2/2 do you have to search out everything? Can't make it work.
I'd honestly have to play with both of them to find the "right" build.
does spike feeder count as a 2/2?
When you play it, it does (or even as a 1/1 if you remove a counter for some reason). But if you want to fetch it from your library, it's a 0/0... so your 2/2s will not fetch it out with Wild Pair.
3x Gemstone Mine
4x Terramorphic Expanse
3x Horizon Canopy
2x Vivid Creek
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Forest
2x Venser, Shaper Savant
4x Mulldrifter
3x Whitemane Lion
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Sower of Temptation
1x True Believer
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Delay
3x Wild Pair
2x Momentary Blink
Trag3dy
i think that can be awesome