^not always consider the turn after, plus also even if we don't over extend our hand they know the *** or Damnation is comming so chances are they'll be more prepared, atleast with Prowess if u have a couple out u have a huge advantage when the field's been taken out.
When you have masked admirers in the yard it doesn't matter. Masked is your anti wrath card, when they wrath, you draw honey bunches of cards. Plus the deck is super good vs. wrath. You have Garruk, Admirers, and Treetops (I run 4).
They're good anti-*** but prowess doesn't always even need garruk to be decent
4 elves with 2 prowess and a clear field, that's a swing for 8 next turn. Idk I think it's up for debate, I just prefer the S/B prowess
Many times it is Admirers 4 and 5 for me, or post wrath whetever I feel like going and getting, or when I'm against faeries fetching the guy that shoots faeries.
So far the harbinger build of elves has been doing alot better than my friends list that doesn't play harbinger.
Doing better where, at FNM's? At random play testing? Against a gaunlet of what sort of decks if you still think Shriekmaw should be mained decked? What sort of lists are your friends playing? Are they skilled players or weekend warriors?
There's really a lot more that you're going to need to devulge for me to believe that considering how myself, the people I test with and all of the people I know online do not play Harbinger. Also I look through results of several tournies when I find them online and I have yet to find a list that runs harbinger.
Bowmaster's not worth it either, there are better options against flying creatures.
Yeah, I agree on what you've said, but Bitterblossom serves a dual purpose in the SB, or even maindeck. It is also a threat that survives post Damnation. Many of the elf decks play Prowess of the Fair, as an additionally card against board sweepers. I think its a better idea to play Bitterblossom instead of both Thresher and Prowess. It is a good card in both cases, and allows you to use your slots on more effective cards. The difference between thresher and blossom is small as far as effectiveness. Blossom might actually be better then prowess already. But hey, I'm already inclined to put 2-3 blossom maindeck, because it is really a great card.
Prowess has been outdated for sometime now, Elves don't need to play it, the deck have several options for post sweeper or ways of dealing with them before hand in the first place. Damnation isn't a game ending problem for a smart player, so why should it become so now? Why do you need to play a card with no synergy in the deck,when you have answers for sweeper spells that do fit better into the deck? There isn't really a good reason to do so.
Why does it matter if I test at FNM or against a gauntlet of decks? I'm not a pro tour player, I don't need to test the deck 200 times vs. every deck in the format. I playtest against whoever is sitting around (Usually not someone who's bad) for like 5 or 6 games, and then there's FNM. Does testing at FNM not count because there are the handful of bad players in my area? Honestly, FNM would be better because I'd be testing against what I'm going to see in the future in my meta, not what I'm playing against when I go to a pro tour.
And I don't maindeck shriekmaw, I play 1 misers one for 1 more removal spell but I cut them because I hate shriekmaw. Also I added 2 colossus and I'm going to test my list tonight.
I like shriekmaw. I have 4 in my main deck. It may get sideboarded out if I am playing a mono black but thats it
this deck bounces back after wrath faster than any deck I've ever seen. you dont need prowess, full stop
Why does it matter if I test at FNM or against a gauntlet of decks? I'm not a pro tour player, I don't need to test the deck 200 times vs. every deck in the format. I playtest against whoever is sitting around (Usually not someone who's bad) for like 5 or 6 games, and then there's FNM. Does testing at FNM not count because there are the handful of bad players in my area? Honestly, FNM would be better because I'd be testing against what I'm going to see in the future in my meta, not what I'm playing against when I go to a pro tour.
Many players see the meta in a vacuum only thinking about the decks they face that their local FNM. How does that really help the rest of us though. This thread is trying ti develop the most competitive verison of the deck for higher level events then FNM's. Even a PTQ in the terms of rules enforcement, play skill and the decks played is a different setting then that of an FNM. As tournaments go they're the low end of the scale, and they're mostly centeralized to that local in regards to meta which is why most people do not regard FNM's accomplishments as competitive worthy results.
Quote from Jujuhawk »
And I don't maindeck shriekmaw, I play 1 misers one for 1 more removal spell but I cut them because I hate shriekmaw. Also I added 2 colossus and I'm going to test my list tonight.
Ok, Bitterblossom, entity, and Doran belong in completely different decks. There is NO reason to ruin your manabase for a card that doesn't belong in this archetype, as well as adding civic wayfinder which is well.... Terrible.
All in all, take out crappy white cards and bitterblossoms for good cards like Harbinger, or Thoughtsieze, or Shriekmaw.
...a page go which is why I made reference to Maw, why would you suggest it and call it a good card if you don't main deck it? Not saying that it's not a good card, but it is rather limited in use, and Elves have better removal.
"Many players see the meta in a vacuum only thinking about the decks they face that their local FNM. How does that really help the rest of us though. This thread is trying ti develop the most competitive verison of the deck for higher level events then FNM's. Even a PTQ in the terms of rules enforcement, play skill and the decks played is a different setting then that of an FNM. As tournaments go they're the low end of the scale, and they're mostly centeralized to that local in regards to meta which is why most people do not regard FNM's accomplishments as competitive worthy results".
Well said i aggre with you, so before i go can i get an answer to this question?
"how do we play against mannequin and rg mana ramp? and what do we side in and out against them?
what are some things i can do to put the odds in my hands?"
Many players see the meta in a vacuum only thinking about the decks they face that their local FNM. How does that really help the rest of us though. This thread is trying ti develop the most competitive verison of the deck for higher level events then FNM's. Even a PTQ in the terms of rules enforcement, play skill and the decks played is a different setting then that of an FNM. As tournaments go they're the low end of the scale, and they're mostly centeralized to that local in regards to meta which is why most people do not regard FNM's accomplishments as competitive worthy results.
You did say this...
...a page go which is why I made reference to Maw, why would you suggest it and call it a good card if you don't main deck it? Not saying that it's not a good card, but it is rather limited in use, and Elves have better removal.
I thought it was good until I played it more and found out it sites in my hand while my creatures do work.
And I could honestly care less about PTQ's. You say the playskill is higher at PTQ's which is totally BS, generally good players are at the top table and the rest of the people are bad. Even at high level events like regionals playskill and deck choices are terrible. =/
And I myself don't need to develop the best version of a deck. I play at FNM's and playtest with my friends for PTQ's with their own decks usually. I've 6-2'd regionals before, and that's the highest level tournament I've everattended/placed in the money in. Honestly I would rather just make my deck be able to win FNM and not worry bout it than make it pro tour ready and not attend a big tournament.
Jujuhawk, the point others are making is that they do care about PTQs and higher level events and thats why they are developing for. I am not asking you to leave of be quiet but take everyone else into consideration as well. We all share the internet and have different objectives.
The forum rules require decks in the competitive section to place well at high level events or win a great majority of games. Thats why ts competitive and not decks for critique.
OK, now the gloves come off. Magic is a game of entertainment. I purchase the game as a consumer with all the rights and abilities therein. If I do not like it, I am not required to try the new alternative (i.e. M10 rules changes). So stating, implying, or otherwise referencing to my opinion as less than whole is not wise.
It is an uneducated opinion, and you were quitting anyway, so WoTC, and none of us, care.
This is the kind of treatment you can look forward to here.
And I could honestly care less about PTQ's. You say the playskill is higher at PTQ's which is totally BS, generally good players are at the top table and the rest of the people are bad. Even at high level events like regionals playskill and deck choices are terrible. =/
And I myself don't need to develop the best version of a deck. I play at FNM's and playtest with my friends for PTQ's with their own decks usually. I've 6-2'd regionals before, and that's the highest level tournament I've everattended/placed in the money in. Honestly I would rather just make my deck be able to win FNM and not worry bout it than make it pro tour ready and not attend a big tournament.
Not to be rude, but why do you bother then?
Even if every person that regularly attentions your FNM also frequents Sally there would still be more people who will never play at your FNM on the boards. So why continue to suggest things that are tweaks for your own FNM meta when they likely are not even able to be applied to 8 mans on MOGO, or perhaps not even the FNM meta of other players, if you don't have the bigger picture in mind.
So what IS competitive? Pro Tour? GP? PTQ? EDH with your friend?
And basically I'm not allowed to post because I don't spend my life trying to make decks that are geared for high level events, just so they can go 0-2 drop because the pilot netdecked it and has no idea what he's doing?
Honestly, the FNM where I play is more competetive than the regionals that a 6-2'd. :/
I guess I just shouldn't bother posting because I'm not a super competetive magic player.
And actually I gear my deck towards a more competetive meta even tho I play at FNM. Maybe I'll change up a few slots because a card will be dead, but other than that I play competetive builds.
And generally I don't suggest stuff that's good in my meta. I'm not gonna say "Play that crappy radiance card from coldsnap because everyone in my meta plays snow". Actually, to contrast this, I SUGGESTED Shriekmaw, when I myself don't play it because it's bad in my meta.
I'm pretty much getting sick of these forums. WoTC boards are terrible too, but at least I can talk there without someone breathing down my neck every time I post, in fact some people there respect me because I furthered the development of the Snow White Archetype there. I know, wierd huh?
So what IS competitive? Pro Tour? GP? PTQ? EDH with your friend?
And basically I'm not allowed to post because I don't spend my life trying to make decks that are geared for high level events, just so they can go 0-2 drop because the pilot netdecked it and has no idea what he's doing?
Honestly, the FNM where I play is more competetive than the regionals that a 6-2'd. :/
I guess I just shouldn't bother posting because I'm not a super competetive magic player.
And actually I gear my deck towards a more competetive meta even tho I play at FNM. Maybe I'll change up a few slots because a card will be dead, but other than that I play competetive builds.
And generally I don't suggest stuff that's good in my meta. I'm not gonna say "Play that crappy radiance card from coldsnap because everyone in my meta plays snow". Actually, to contrast this, I SUGGESTED Shriekmaw, when I myself don't play it because it's bad in my meta.
I'm pretty much getting sick of these forums. WoTC boards are terrible too, but at least I can talk there without someone breathing down my neck every time I post, in fact some people there respect me because I furthered the development of the Snow White Archetype there. I know, wierd huh?
Go masterbate elsewhere. The point of the internet isn't people appreciating your ideas, or making yourself feel better. It is communication. Communication isn't just talking though, it is about the transfer of information. All you've been doing is giving bad ideas and wrong information. Then you now snipe at us for saying your information is wrong and because we don't respect your play environment. I'm sorry, this is the competitive seciton. If you want to just "have fun" go to the DFC. Otherwise, this section is for the improvement of the whole, not 1 person.
P.S. WOTC boards are so terrible. Every noob goes there to post. You can't even improve on the old "bests". The biggest example was CotH. For the longest time everyone there was refusing to take it out of any of their green decks. Guess what guys, testing has proven it is the WRONG choice the large amount of the time. You can't get this when you only care about being right, you get this by working with others and willing to sacrifice for the right answer.
Actually most of the people in the competetive forum just post their decklists to have the deck get the same reviews everytime by the same people.
And did I not say "The WoTC boards are terrible"? I know half of the people there don't even know how to spell magic correctly, let alone play it, but at least they don't make me feel like falming someone everytime I press the new post button. =/ These forums are awful too, there are NO good competetive MTG public forums because the general population that plays MtG don't play the game super competitbely, or they do but they're idiots and don't place so it doesn't matter.
How about we all just stop fighting seeing as every1 has an opinion and none of them are wrong, or seeing as fighting on the net is about as useless as fighting irl only I don't get to see some1 get punched. Now can we please get back to the subject of figuring out how to make B/G elves a bit better or should we rename this thread after the Jerry springer Show?
Also I play 2 profane commands, Idk if I should play 3 or even 4, They work REALLY well but every once in a blue moon that Double B doesn't come up and I'm left with a dead card in hand. Oh and is 3 packmasters too much?
Also I play 2 profane commands, Idk if I should play 3 or even 4, They work REALLY well but every once in a blue moon that Double B doesn't come up and I'm left with a dead card in hand. Oh and is 3 packmasters too much?
I like Profane as a 4 of, the card's has nearly no end to it's usefulness. With the 8 duals, Tomb and 1-2 Wayfinders (though I've since lists with all 4 Wayfinders) with 3-5 main swamps I rarely either have issue with BB.
Honestly I don't care for Packmaster in the deck. If he's working for you that's all well and good, but I don't reccommend him in the least.
The BB is not a problem. Having 2 in your opening hand is the problem. =[
Packmaster I have found is not good, and most of the time you're utilizing your mana so you can only make 1 wolf, if that.
I played this deck to a 2-2 preformance today. I got mana flooded vs. mannequin both games 4th round.I ran a more rockish build of the deck with 4 Goyfs, 4 thoughtsieze, and Wolf-Skulls, Perfects, etc.
Well I mean packmaster is like god against other aggro decks for me. When I have packmaster out they don't want to attack at all unless they're sure they can win that turn. Also he's great EOT mana dump. But idk if he's to slow or not. I only run 4 dual lands (all I can afford right now) 1 tomb 7 swamps and no wayfinders so sometimes it's trouble for me. I guess I could try to run a wayfinder or 2 to help out with it and then run another profane or 2, ty for the help.
The majority of the time hands with 2 commands are not good. There are of course the few that ARE good, like the one you posted. I personally have dropped to 2 commands because the majority of the time it sits in my hand and stares at a goyf.
The majority of the time hands with 2 commands are not good. There are of course the few that ARE good, like the one you posted. I personally have dropped to 2 commands because the majority of the time it sits in my hand and stares at a goyf.
With all that Command does I'm not sure how that happens to you very often unless you don't have the mana do anything with it.
If Goofy is standing in your way you can always give a few of your creatures fear and make them lose life.
Truth be told I find it rare with Command and at least 4-5 mana that you can't come up with something relevant to do with it.
If you want a sig as awesome as this, here's the place to get it: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=182339
4 elves with 2 prowess and a clear field, that's a swing for 8 next turn. Idk I think it's up for debate, I just prefer the S/B prowess
If you want a sig as awesome as this, here's the place to get it: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=182339
Doing better where, at FNM's? At random play testing? Against a gaunlet of what sort of decks if you still think Shriekmaw should be mained decked? What sort of lists are your friends playing? Are they skilled players or weekend warriors?
There's really a lot more that you're going to need to devulge for me to believe that considering how myself, the people I test with and all of the people I know online do not play Harbinger. Also I look through results of several tournies when I find them online and I have yet to find a list that runs harbinger.
Bowmaster's not worth it either, there are better options against flying creatures.
Prowess has been outdated for sometime now, Elves don't need to play it, the deck have several options for post sweeper or ways of dealing with them before hand in the first place. Damnation isn't a game ending problem for a smart player, so why should it become so now? Why do you need to play a card with no synergy in the deck,when you have answers for sweeper spells that do fit better into the deck? There isn't really a good reason to do so.
And I don't maindeck shriekmaw, I play 1 misers one for 1 more removal spell but I cut them because I hate shriekmaw. Also I added 2 colossus and I'm going to test my list tonight.
this deck bounces back after wrath faster than any deck I've ever seen. you dont need prowess, full stop
what are some things i can do to put the odds in my hands?
credit for banner high~light studios
:symb::symg::symw: doran doran
:symg::symb: elfs
working on :symb::symw: turbo fog, :symb::symu::symr: mannequin, rouges.
"Whats your mana base?"
"You dont need a mana base when playing turbo fog."
Many players see the meta in a vacuum only thinking about the decks they face that their local FNM. How does that really help the rest of us though. This thread is trying ti develop the most competitive verison of the deck for higher level events then FNM's. Even a PTQ in the terms of rules enforcement, play skill and the decks played is a different setting then that of an FNM. As tournaments go they're the low end of the scale, and they're mostly centeralized to that local in regards to meta which is why most people do not regard FNM's accomplishments as competitive worthy results.
You did say this...
...a page go which is why I made reference to Maw, why would you suggest it and call it a good card if you don't main deck it? Not saying that it's not a good card, but it is rather limited in use, and Elves have better removal.
Well said i aggre with you, so before i go can i get an answer to this question?
"how do we play against mannequin and rg mana ramp? and what do we side in and out against them?
what are some things i can do to put the odds in my hands?"
credit for banner high~light studios
:symb::symg::symw: doran doran
:symg::symb: elfs
working on :symb::symw: turbo fog, :symb::symu::symr: mannequin, rouges.
"Whats your mana base?"
"You dont need a mana base when playing turbo fog."
I thought it was good until I played it more and found out it sites in my hand while my creatures do work.
And I could honestly care less about PTQ's. You say the playskill is higher at PTQ's which is totally BS, generally good players are at the top table and the rest of the people are bad. Even at high level events like regionals playskill and deck choices are terrible. =/
And I myself don't need to develop the best version of a deck. I play at FNM's and playtest with my friends for PTQ's with their own decks usually. I've 6-2'd regionals before, and that's the highest level tournament I've everattended/placed in the money in. Honestly I would rather just make my deck be able to win FNM and not worry bout it than make it pro tour ready and not attend a big tournament.
The forum rules require decks in the competitive section to place well at high level events or win a great majority of games. Thats why ts competitive and not decks for critique.
This is the kind of treatment you can look forward to here.
Not to be rude, but why do you bother then?
Even if every person that regularly attentions your FNM also frequents Sally there would still be more people who will never play at your FNM on the boards. So why continue to suggest things that are tweaks for your own FNM meta when they likely are not even able to be applied to 8 mans on MOGO, or perhaps not even the FNM meta of other players, if you don't have the bigger picture in mind.
And basically I'm not allowed to post because I don't spend my life trying to make decks that are geared for high level events, just so they can go 0-2 drop because the pilot netdecked it and has no idea what he's doing?
Honestly, the FNM where I play is more competetive than the regionals that a 6-2'd. :/
I guess I just shouldn't bother posting because I'm not a super competetive magic player.
And actually I gear my deck towards a more competetive meta even tho I play at FNM. Maybe I'll change up a few slots because a card will be dead, but other than that I play competetive builds.
And generally I don't suggest stuff that's good in my meta. I'm not gonna say "Play that crappy radiance card from coldsnap because everyone in my meta plays snow". Actually, to contrast this, I SUGGESTED Shriekmaw, when I myself don't play it because it's bad in my meta.
I'm pretty much getting sick of these forums. WoTC boards are terrible too, but at least I can talk there without someone breathing down my neck every time I post, in fact some people there respect me because I furthered the development of the Snow White Archetype there. I know, wierd huh?
Go masterbate elsewhere. The point of the internet isn't people appreciating your ideas, or making yourself feel better. It is communication. Communication isn't just talking though, it is about the transfer of information. All you've been doing is giving bad ideas and wrong information. Then you now snipe at us for saying your information is wrong and because we don't respect your play environment. I'm sorry, this is the competitive seciton. If you want to just "have fun" go to the DFC. Otherwise, this section is for the improvement of the whole, not 1 person.
P.S. WOTC boards are so terrible. Every noob goes there to post. You can't even improve on the old "bests". The biggest example was CotH. For the longest time everyone there was refusing to take it out of any of their green decks. Guess what guys, testing has proven it is the WRONG choice the large amount of the time. You can't get this when you only care about being right, you get this by working with others and willing to sacrifice for the right answer.
And did I not say "The WoTC boards are terrible"? I know half of the people there don't even know how to spell magic correctly, let alone play it, but at least they don't make me feel like falming someone everytime I press the new post button. =/ These forums are awful too, there are NO good competetive MTG public forums because the general population that plays MtG don't play the game super competitbely, or they do but they're idiots and don't place so it doesn't matter.
Also I play 2 profane commands, Idk if I should play 3 or even 4, They work REALLY well but every once in a blue moon that Double B doesn't come up and I'm left with a dead card in hand. Oh and is 3 packmasters too much?
If you want a sig as awesome as this, here's the place to get it: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=182339
I like Profane as a 4 of, the card's has nearly no end to it's usefulness. With the 8 duals, Tomb and 1-2 Wayfinders (though I've since lists with all 4 Wayfinders) with 3-5 main swamps I rarely either have issue with BB.
Honestly I don't care for Packmaster in the deck. If he's working for you that's all well and good, but I don't reccommend him in the least.
Packmaster I have found is not good, and most of the time you're utilizing your mana so you can only make 1 wolf, if that.
I played this deck to a 2-2 preformance today. I got mana flooded vs. mannequin both games 4th round.I ran a more rockish build of the deck with 4 Goyfs, 4 thoughtsieze, and Wolf-Skulls, Perfects, etc.
If you want a sig as awesome as this, here's the place to get it: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=182339
You can mull if you have to, but it would depend on that hand.
Palace
Waste
Thoughtseize
Vanquisher
Perfect
Command
Command
For example is not a terrible hand. Seeing dubs Command is not always so awful.
With all that Command does I'm not sure how that happens to you very often unless you don't have the mana do anything with it.
If Goofy is standing in your way you can always give a few of your creatures fear and make them lose life.
Truth be told I find it rare with Command and at least 4-5 mana that you can't come up with something relevant to do with it.
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Wolf-Skull Shaman
3 Masked Admirers
2 Chameleon Colossus
1 Elvish Champion
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Boreal Druid
3 Bitterblossom
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Profane Command
3 Eyeblight's Ending
3 Nameless Inversion
3 Treetop Village
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Pendelhaven
6 Forest
5 Swamp
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Riftsweeper
2 Tombstalker
4 Terror
Lets just say that Bitterblossom is on of the best cards in this format and some honorable mentions being Wolf-Skull Shaman and Chameleon Colossus