All of the cards have been doing well but probably my favorite I haven't seen listed much, that card being Thoughtseize. It's probably won me more games then any other card here. Is it the price that keeps it out of lists or is there another reason?
I'm really interested, if anyone has the time...
`Nim
thoughtseize is a good card at the beginning (turn 1) against control matches if they have a *** or damnation on hand!.
Actually I find it is still quite good even late in the game vs most control as they will always have cards in hand to make it useful. Forcing out their last counter to push through a key card late or taking their last removal/the wrath that was going to stabalize the board are just a couple of key uses I've had for it.
Vs Aggro decks it's less useful late game as they have the habit of dumping their hand quickly but even here taking their best drop or the Incinerate that would eat your Champion are both game winning plays.
but if you're low on life or in topdeckmode it's not really a card you want to come across!
I must ask if you've actually had a time where you where at 2 or less life and needed to cast Thoughtseize... I know in all of the games I've played my answer to that would be no. Not once has the life lost been the cause of my lossing the game. In fact, if you think about it, vs aggro (usually the match up people worry about life loss in), you'll almost always "make up" that life with the card you take (just think of the damage that incinerate/creature would of done if you hadn't taken it... Much more then two I imagine).
As for a topdeck, I've actually had games where it was the topdeck I needed to win. That doesn't mean it's at its best late game but I've rarely been unhappy to draw it.
I've tested it and not liked it, true, sometimes it can be good but in a lot of matches it's not handy
also don't forget that we're an aggro deck and thoughtseize in my eyes is a controlcard
I can accept the first part (if it didn't work for you then it didn't, we all have our own ways of playing) but the second part makes me wonder. Early pinpoint disruption is indeed a good card in control but if you've ever seen some Black Weenie decks in action you'll know that it's even better in weenie decks. For only B (a price that shouldn't slow the aggro deck down too much) you strip their hand of their most immediate response and buy a fair amount of time to hopefully kill them before they can recover. True the Elf decks in Std are not quite as fast but the same idea applies.
-> tip: play some removal MD (like eyeblight's ending so you have an answer to black creatures, slaughter pact is good but not that good to be a 4off in SB, nameless inversion is also a possibility or my favourite deathmark)
As for removal, I haven't really found a use for it. The Pact is just for the mirror when I fear the topdecked champion. Otherwise, between Thoughtseize, all the deaththouch creatures, and simply haveing enough (and usually much bigger) creatures to swarm/crush other creature decks, I really haven't had many times where I went... "I wish I could kill that specific creature". It's just never came up. Matchups where I am glad that I don't have any critter kill maindecked? Those come up fairly often...
Would anyone else like to share their experiance with Thoughtseize?
I wonder if I'm just an odd one out when it comes to this...
`Nim
It's up to you what you will put in the sideboard, and what to replace in the main. I wish you good luck taking on all that Control without the cards i mentioned.
Garruk Wildspeaker is one of the best (If not main) things that non-red aggro has to beat control decks. It lets you consistantly power out more guys, over loading their removal. Than, it offer an uncounterable Overrun effect to push through massive damage. I really don't see how that isn't better than the cards you mentioned.
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Would anyone else like to share their experiance with Thoughtseize?
I wonder if I'm just an odd one out when it comes to this...
`Nim
I agree with you completely. My current list doesn't run any Thoughtseize (because of I can't afford them just yet) but the build I test with on MWS uses 4 of them. In my deck right now I'm playing Augur of Skulls as their substitute, and he actually does quite well. Against control, I wait till turn 3 or 4 to drop him (as by then they're down to only a few key answers in their hand) and against aggro I just use him as a chump blocker/regenerator. But once I purchase 4 Thoughtseize, they will replace him.
In a control heavy meta, I think 3-4 maindeck is absolutely imperative. In a more aggro-heavy meta, I would rather just put more removal in the maindeck, and keep Thoughtseize in the sideboard. Regardless, I agree with you 100%. Thoughtseize is nuts, and definitely belongs in BG Elves.
Also,
I have a new idea for this deck. I'd like to see what you all think. This list might not even belong in this thread, but there are more elves in the deck than any other creature type, so I'll post it here and you all can tell me what you think. It's a much more aggro-control-ish BG build, but I think it has enough tools to handle aggro and control.
I also dont like Thoughtseize MB its just not so important to play that instead of Llanowar Elves on turn 1.Also there are better cards for SB than that cashseize(exterpate! ) .O and yeah GARRUK RLZ !!
I rarely play Thoughtseize on turn 1. Only time I ever play it turn 1 is if I don't get a mana maker. The best play I've found is:
T1:
Play a land. Play Llanowar Elves. Pass the turn.
T2:
Play a land. Use Llanowar Elves and one land to play Wren's Run Vanquisher. Use the other land to play Thoughtseize, removing a ***/DMN, or anything they might use to destroy the affirmentioned Vanquisher. Pass the turn.
and there you have it.
ALSO,
How on earth is Extirpate better than Thoughtseize? They do completely different things. Don't even compare the two...
-> If you play it out VS aggro they'll just incinerate you in response, that's 5 damage you have to take for nothing!
If they want to toss it at my head they are more then welcome to. The key is that then they can't burn your champion (which you play after your thoughtseize, ie. protected). Or they simply don't have the mana when you cast Thoughtseize for them to cast Incinerate. Or you just take another card from their hand, which still more then makes up for the two life. And if they only have one card in hand, unless you have a very poor board position (which is pretty hard to do with elves I find), you'll be just as happy clearing it of anything unexpected.
-> Late game most players only have land on hand, so you take 2 damage often for nothing, in my experience!
Vs Aggro perhaps but then again, late game is very good for the elf deck and not so good for the red deck. If they really only have land in hand then thats great! You can just keep making elves and beast tokens to your heart's content. The early game is where Thoughtseize is very helpful there and it's the early game that you need help in that match up anyway. And if for some reason you really don't have any targets to hit in his deck (extreemly rare... so much so I've not seen it happen myself) you can just SB them out. Just because they fail vs a specific deck (what deck I don't know) doesn't mean they are not golden vs the rest of the field.
-> It's cheap indeed, but you need you first turn mana accel to do damage fast and build an army quick.
No one said it had to be cast turn one. If I don't have a mana elf I'll play it on one, otherwise I usually play the elf (unless I expect them to play a back breaking card early). It's much more a turn two/three card for me. Which is just in time to hit that *** or the Incinerate after they tap out for their two/three drop.
Personally I consider thoughtseize as a SB card, I really like it, I have a playset, but to my belief it doesn't belong in the MD here. What do the others think, I believe we already had a discussion about this before^^
I'm sorry, I must have missed it. Was it in this thread? What page? I'll look but it's easier if you could point it out to me.
(I did skim the thread earlier but I'll be honest and say I didn't read it all/closely)
I can hardly recall you never ever want to kill a creature of the opponent? Heard of Tarmogoyf? Not to mention: Tombstalker, Sower of Temptation, Shriekmaw, Oona's Prowler? These cards can easily screw us or so I have figured out
I don't fear Tarmogoyf at all. I have eight two drops that trade with him, a four (or earlier) drop thats usually bigger and makes tokens that trade with him, I have an infinite token maker to stall it indefinatly, and eight anthem effects that tend to make my creatures bigger then him or unblockable... So yeah, I'm not worried about 'goyf.
Tombstalker is moderatly rare to see on MtGO (I've only seen it played as a finisher in MBC decks) and even when I do see it it's usually slow enough/comes late enough that I can race it. This may be worth killing straight out but isn't something I feel I really need to worry about.
Sower of Temptation is much more common but it's weakness is the deck type it's commonly run in, namely blue control. And the majority of those decks don't run enough creatures to back it up. First game I just let them have whatever they want and win by swarming past them. He'll need to chump with it some time or die anyway. Post SB I can side in Pact if I really need to. This is one of the few creatures I do actually want to kill.
Shriekmaw is easily raceable. His main effect is killing my creature. After that I really could care less if they get a body from it or not.
Oona's Prowler. Aside from being even more rare then Tombstalker, I must question how this creature screws me? Hakkon is not played online atm (and if it was I would run Extirpate before some random creature kill) and otherwise it's a 3/1 flier... I'm not worried.
what are the good/bad match's for this deck? I'm still looking for a deck to play P.L.. I don't want to spend an arm and a leg on it and this looked pretty good that way but I want to know the meta in which this deck works.
what are the good/bad match's for this deck? I'm still looking for a deck to play P.L.. I don't want to spend an arm and a leg on it and this looked pretty good that way but I want to know the meta in which this deck works.
In my testing, the worst match-ups for this deck are MBA and Mannequin. Overall, pretty much just recurring Shriekmaw is really hard to deal with. Epochrasite and Riftwing Cloudskate can also be a nuisance. I've found that Riftsweeper in the sideboard is the best choice for dealing with those two threats. This deck is not just the run-of-the-mill aggro deck that a lot of people seem to think it is. It has very decent late game control, and fears many things more than a Wrath of God or Damnation. Although, I would say that this isn't a deck for the budget minded.
I can see how he is powerful against any deck, but i seriosly doubt your opponent will let you have him long enough to do any serious harm. If he can't counter then he will bounce him and then counter him.
And his Overrun is an activated ability yes? Stifle or Trickbind
And in both cases, the opponent has used two cards to deal with your one. Seems like card advantage to me.
If a control deck has to bounce and then counter him, then they have used two cards to your one. Meaning, they have wasted two turns and probably haven't dealth with the creatures that you've been consistantly throwing down.
In the second case, Trickbind can definately cancel out an activation. However, Trickbind also hasn't seen much play since Dragonstorm fell out of the top deck spot. Trickbind, at most, will probably be used as a one-of in the sideboards of a Teachings deck, meaning it will usually cost them a Mystical Teachings and the Trickbind to deal with one Garruk. I still don't see how we're not coming out on top.
If the opponent wastes multiple turns, mana, and resources to eliminate a SINGLE Garruk Wildspeaker, than I'd say that Garruk served his purpose just as much as he would have spawning out beast tokens or pumping for an Overrun. And after all is said and done, we still have more copies of Garruk that they have to deal with.
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I have yet to test this iteration of the deck, but here are my explanations.
I relegated 'Goyf to the board, where he will be put in for matches where...he is bound to be beefy.
I also boarded Eyeblight's (and am open to full out removing it from the side in favor of Deathmark) because I would rather not wait for the three open mana to kill something. Yes, this deck is big on mana, but it is also big on playing creatures too. You can kill something while not wasting a turn with inversion. Inversion kills enough relevant creatures to make the cut.
I also took out one Shriekmaw.
For the Goyfs and Shriekmaw, I added an Admirers maindeck, added two Warhammers, and added two Thornweald Archer for kicks.
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Most of the times, your Garruk will likely just be countered, as he is one of the bigger threats in the deck. Using Thorns will only help the elves, as your deck is faster than his. In the end, he will have to spend far more mana than you. Yes, it slows Garruk a bit, but mana isn't a problem with this deck, is it?
This is ridiculous. Then I guess every single plausible good card is horrible then, since those cards will always get countered? Back to reality please; the fact that he's one of the bigger threats in your deck is EXACTLY why you run him; increasing your threat density is always good, especially when your thickening it with cards quite so flat out good. Using Thorns is an all right solution, but Thorns is nowhere near broad enough to merit a slot in the MD; Garruk, on the other hand, is easily one of the best planeswalkers, and is one of the most prominent threats in standard by himself. Forcing them to hold back a counter for Garruk, of, if you're lucky in the matchup, Garruks, forces them to play much more on edge, which means more of your beaters come through and less of their threats; later in the game, its still a great tempo play, since, as we've established, Garruk is a "must coutner" card. While, of course, the deck will have situations where Guile comes down to harass him, forcing them to counter the Garruk, leads the way for your removal spells, which, while you'll still be at a disadvantage, gives you a few more turns to live. And in other situations, where the "Sonic Boom" isn't possible, forcing them to counter it keep them on their toes, which will often give you the tempo needed to win the game. "Because they can answer it" is never a valid reason not to play a card, unless your entire deck shapes itself around that card; as that's not happening here, I'm not entirely sure where you're coming from. And, of course, if you really like Eyes or Thorn quite so much, you could always run both if you have the room; finding that room may be a problem however, as neither card is spectacular on its own; Garruk, on the other hand, is always amazing.
Also... sorry if the argument's not quite level; this was more a jump-in argument than anything, so I don't really have the whole picture. It seems like Skizzet is attempting to argue that Garruk is a poor card, though... and that's bull.
I also boarded Eyeblight's (and am open to full out removing it from the side in favor of Deathmark) because I would rather not wait for the three open mana to kill something. Yes, this deck is big on mana, but it is also big on playing creatures too. You can kill something while not wasting a turn with inversion. Inversion kills enough relevant creatures to make the cut.
I also took out one Shriekmaw.
If you're looking for a kill spell that lets you keep casting creatures, might I recommend Slaughter Pact? With the only drawback of the card being a failure to kill black creatures, you get a spell that lets you tap out any/all the time, thus allowing you to develope the board at your best speed, while still always being able to kill problematic creatures at will.
If you're looking for a kill spell that lets you keep casting creatures, might I recommend Slaughter Pact? With the only drawback of the card being a failure to kill black creatures, you get a spell that lets you tap out any/all the time, thus allowing you to develope the board at your best speed, while still always being able to kill problematic creatures at will.
It's worked very well for me.
`Nim
3 mana now or 3 mana later doesn't make much difference to me. However, I do have a playset of those and could stand to test them out in the deck.
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In the early game the 3 mana makes a difference. It´s really good in early racing - you are able to lay down more cretures, remove a blocker and attack at the same time. Next turn the paying 3 doesn´t matter so much(depends how much free mana u have). If you are in lead with tempo, then it will be quite hard for your opponent to catch up.
Indeed, thats what I ment. Dropping an "anthem" elf on turn 3/4 and removing a blocker that same turn is pretty nice and rather hard to come back from. Its also nice for forcing play mistakes as I find people don't think about Slaughter Pact too much at the moment.
Just about everyone in my area loves black decks so i dont run pacts or Shriekmaws and i find that 3 Profane Command and 4 Eyeblight's Ending is more then enough to make my way to a victorie. But no argument that Garruk really is a game winner!
i never found room in my build for pacts i play 2 Commands,3Eyeblights Endings and 2 Shriekmaws...i think these are better removal spells for the deck.Pacts i dont realy like in here,its dark banishing for P. sake:)
Those are all fine cards indeed, however urzassedatives was asking for other options because he didn't like how one of them was working for him. This is probably a personal/meta choice more then anything else so nearly any combination of cards could be good for your removal depending on what works for you. I, for example, don't run any removal main deck and I do just fine.
Just goes to show that even a competitive deck has plenty of variations.
`Nim
4x Eyeblight's Ending
3x Krosan Grip
4x Eyes of the Wisent
3x Elvish Champion
1x Masked Admirers
I know i prefer Eyeblight's Ending, but Shriekmaw fits in the manacurve. Still not sure if i should cut a few high-cost spells, also this can hardly be called a real Elvesdeck as i only run 15 Mainboard.
Any comments?
IMHO, your biggest problem here is that you're playing 4 Wren's Run Vanquishers with only 15 elves maindeck. That seems a little too harsh. I would swap the 4 Shriekmaws and the 4 Eyeblight's Endings (from maindeck to sb). Not just for the fact that its an elf, but because it just takes out more things than Shriekmaw aswell.
I run a standard G/B elf build and have been having problems with mannequin decks, so I was wondering what you guys have sideboard or main against that type of deck? I was considering siding some Withered Wretches to make their mannequins useless, I already have Prowess of the fair against damnation and Viridian Shaman against Ironfoot/Epocrasite. But I still am having problems dealing with em. I would appreciate any advice.
The above deck is the deck that I played.
Good cards:
-Profane Command worked beautifully. My only complaint was that I didn't get it often enough, and the 2 black mana (for some reason) was sometimes an issue.
-Masked Admirers are a favorite. I think 3 is a good number for them in this deck, as you don't want a hand full of them, but playing them is the way to go for sure.
-GARRUK. This deck ran on the back of the overrunning nightmareman. I completely understand why people may choose to not shell out for him, but the deck is just so much better with him than without him. People still don't know when it is right to attack planeswalkers or the player...
-Vanquisher. Obviously.
-Imperious Perfect only stayed on the board long enough to make a token/attack maybe twice in 5 rounds. Some games it was used as a Warrior's Honor, on turns when I overran anyway...
-Shriekmaw. 3 Is a good number. I don't like to have too many, and he was always gravy to have. Evoking him is usually what was done.
Iffyness:
-Slaughter Pact. I am still unsure about this removal slot. It was nice to use this surprise factor card, but I felt slowed down by it when I had to pay for it the next turn. I could see dumping these for Inversions, and then replacing the boarded Inversions for Deathmarks.
-Loxodon Warhammer. In the games where I got it to stick, it was a win more. In other games, it was irrelevant. (vs Doran, of course...and don't even bother against Mannequin...) I am taking it out for a land and a command.
-Nath of the Gilf-Leaf. I could never get him to stick either, despite how few spells can kill him outright. I was always siding him out. I might just put 'Goyf back into the deck, actually.
My sideboard was a mess. I need a better one. It doesn't really have good answers to Mannequin. Riftsweeper isn't the NUTZ against Mannequin. I would rather have had many other cards.
*bids on Extirpates*
I went 3-2 with the deck, snagging fourth place. I beat two not-exactly-tier1 decks, and a Doran.dec. Doran rolls over to Garruk. But it influenced what cards are just...not so great in the deck. The blink Mannequin deck hit me with a damnation in game two... (I still had a hand full of creatures, but he gained control of the board after...and that was that) And before anyone says it, Prowess of the Fair is no answer to a Mannequin deck, with all their bounce shenanigans. I just had two horrid games against the mannequin.dec, mulliganning (my own mistake actually) to 4 first game, and having a subpar second game, making the final game a speedy affair.
Riftsweeper is supposed to do what against mannequin? Maybe get rid of epoch. Play nameless inversion, case solved. Other than that, the only thing I would add is try storage lands. It's nuts with garruk, and even more so, it's nuts with profane command, making BB easier and such. I know earlier in the thread I said Nath was crazy, but he just seems too expensive for a mediocre beater. I would almost rather have tombstalker, which dodges just as much, if not more removal and can be cheaper for evasion and added effectiveness. And running Inversion makes up for the lack of elvishness on tombstalker.
"The accumulation of their filth will foam up around their waists, and all the [prostitutes] and politicians will look up and shout, 'SAVE US.' and I'll look down and whisper,'No.'"
Riftsweeper is supposed to do what against mannequin? Maybe get rid of epoch. Play nameless inversion, case solved. Other than that, the only thing I would add is try storage lands. It's nuts with garruk, and even more so, it's nuts with profane command, making BB easier and such. I know earlier in the thread I said Nath was crazy, but he just seems too expensive for a mediocre beater. I would almost rather have tombstalker, which dodges just as much, if not more removal and can be cheaper for evasion and added effectiveness. And running Inversion makes up for the lack of elvishness on tombstalker.
A storage land isn't really necessary in this deck. The mana dudes make a big command likely.
I am running maindeck inversions already, as I have said above.
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3x Boreal Druid
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Elvish Champion
2x Masked Admirers
4x Imperious Perfect
4x Thornweald Archer
2x Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
4x Wren's Run Vanquisher
3x Wren's Run Packmaster
4x Thoughtseize
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
Lands:
2x Swamp
13x Forest
4x Gilt-Leaf Palace
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Riftsweeper
2x Liliana Vess
4x Gaea's Herald
3x Slaughter Pact
2x Masked Admirers
All of the cards have been doing well but probably my favorite I haven't seen listed much, that card being Thoughtseize. It's probably won me more games then any other card here. Is it the price that keeps it out of lists or is there another reason?
I'm really interested, if anyone has the time...
`Nim
A: yavimaya dryad
Actually I find it is still quite good even late in the game vs most control as they will always have cards in hand to make it useful. Forcing out their last counter to push through a key card late or taking their last removal/the wrath that was going to stabalize the board are just a couple of key uses I've had for it.
Vs Aggro decks it's less useful late game as they have the habit of dumping their hand quickly but even here taking their best drop or the Incinerate that would eat your Champion are both game winning plays.
I must ask if you've actually had a time where you where at 2 or less life and needed to cast Thoughtseize... I know in all of the games I've played my answer to that would be no. Not once has the life lost been the cause of my lossing the game. In fact, if you think about it, vs aggro (usually the match up people worry about life loss in), you'll almost always "make up" that life with the card you take (just think of the damage that incinerate/creature would of done if you hadn't taken it... Much more then two I imagine).
As for a topdeck, I've actually had games where it was the topdeck I needed to win. That doesn't mean it's at its best late game but I've rarely been unhappy to draw it.
I can accept the first part (if it didn't work for you then it didn't, we all have our own ways of playing) but the second part makes me wonder. Early pinpoint disruption is indeed a good card in control but if you've ever seen some Black Weenie decks in action you'll know that it's even better in weenie decks. For only B (a price that shouldn't slow the aggro deck down too much) you strip their hand of their most immediate response and buy a fair amount of time to hopefully kill them before they can recover. True the Elf decks in Std are not quite as fast but the same idea applies.
As for removal, I haven't really found a use for it. The Pact is just for the mirror when I fear the topdecked champion. Otherwise, between Thoughtseize, all the deaththouch creatures, and simply haveing enough (and usually much bigger) creatures to swarm/crush other creature decks, I really haven't had many times where I went... "I wish I could kill that specific creature". It's just never came up. Matchups where I am glad that I don't have any critter kill maindecked? Those come up fairly often...
Would anyone else like to share their experiance with Thoughtseize?
I wonder if I'm just an odd one out when it comes to this...
`Nim
Garruk Wildspeaker is one of the best (If not main) things that non-red aggro has to beat control decks. It lets you consistantly power out more guys, over loading their removal. Than, it offer an uncounterable Overrun effect to push through massive damage. I really don't see how that isn't better than the cards you mentioned.
I agree with you completely. My current list doesn't run any Thoughtseize (because of I can't afford them just yet) but the build I test with on MWS uses 4 of them. In my deck right now I'm playing Augur of Skulls as their substitute, and he actually does quite well. Against control, I wait till turn 3 or 4 to drop him (as by then they're down to only a few key answers in their hand) and against aggro I just use him as a chump blocker/regenerator. But once I purchase 4 Thoughtseize, they will replace him.
In a control heavy meta, I think 3-4 maindeck is absolutely imperative. In a more aggro-heavy meta, I would rather just put more removal in the maindeck, and keep Thoughtseize in the sideboard. Regardless, I agree with you 100%. Thoughtseize is nuts, and definitely belongs in BG Elves.
Also,
I have a new idea for this deck. I'd like to see what you all think. This list might not even belong in this thread, but there are more elves in the deck than any other creature type, so I'll post it here and you all can tell me what you think. It's a much more aggro-control-ish BG build, but I think it has enough tools to handle aggro and control.
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Boreal Druid
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Epochrasite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Masked Admirers
Removal/Utility:
3 Thoughtseize
4 Nameless Inversion
4 Eyeblight's Ending
4 Gaea's Anthem
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Treetop Village
4 Gilt-leaf Palace
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Pendelhaven
6 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Damnation
3 Riftsweeper
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
Draft My Cube!
I rarely play Thoughtseize on turn 1. Only time I ever play it turn 1 is if I don't get a mana maker. The best play I've found is:
T1:
Play a land. Play Llanowar Elves. Pass the turn.
T2:
Play a land. Use Llanowar Elves and one land to play Wren's Run Vanquisher. Use the other land to play Thoughtseize, removing a ***/DMN, or anything they might use to destroy the affirmentioned Vanquisher. Pass the turn.
and there you have it.
ALSO,
How on earth is Extirpate better than Thoughtseize? They do completely different things. Don't even compare the two...
Draft My Cube!
If they want to toss it at my head they are more then welcome to. The key is that then they can't burn your champion (which you play after your thoughtseize, ie. protected). Or they simply don't have the mana when you cast Thoughtseize for them to cast Incinerate. Or you just take another card from their hand, which still more then makes up for the two life. And if they only have one card in hand, unless you have a very poor board position (which is pretty hard to do with elves I find), you'll be just as happy clearing it of anything unexpected.
Vs Aggro perhaps but then again, late game is very good for the elf deck and not so good for the red deck. If they really only have land in hand then thats great! You can just keep making elves and beast tokens to your heart's content. The early game is where Thoughtseize is very helpful there and it's the early game that you need help in that match up anyway. And if for some reason you really don't have any targets to hit in his deck (extreemly rare... so much so I've not seen it happen myself) you can just SB them out. Just because they fail vs a specific deck (what deck I don't know) doesn't mean they are not golden vs the rest of the field.
No one said it had to be cast turn one. If I don't have a mana elf I'll play it on one, otherwise I usually play the elf (unless I expect them to play a back breaking card early). It's much more a turn two/three card for me. Which is just in time to hit that *** or the Incinerate after they tap out for their two/three drop.
I'm sorry, I must have missed it. Was it in this thread? What page? I'll look but it's easier if you could point it out to me.
(I did skim the thread earlier but I'll be honest and say I didn't read it all/closely)
I don't fear Tarmogoyf at all. I have eight two drops that trade with him, a four (or earlier) drop thats usually bigger and makes tokens that trade with him, I have an infinite token maker to stall it indefinatly, and eight anthem effects that tend to make my creatures bigger then him or unblockable... So yeah, I'm not worried about 'goyf.
Tombstalker is moderatly rare to see on MtGO (I've only seen it played as a finisher in MBC decks) and even when I do see it it's usually slow enough/comes late enough that I can race it. This may be worth killing straight out but isn't something I feel I really need to worry about.
Sower of Temptation is much more common but it's weakness is the deck type it's commonly run in, namely blue control. And the majority of those decks don't run enough creatures to back it up. First game I just let them have whatever they want and win by swarming past them. He'll need to chump with it some time or die anyway. Post SB I can side in Pact if I really need to. This is one of the few creatures I do actually want to kill.
Shriekmaw is easily raceable. His main effect is killing my creature. After that I really could care less if they get a body from it or not.
Oona's Prowler. Aside from being even more rare then Tombstalker, I must question how this creature screws me? Hakkon is not played online atm (and if it was I would run Extirpate before some random creature kill) and otherwise it's a 3/1 flier... I'm not worried.
So, mmm yeah...
`Nim
In my testing, the worst match-ups for this deck are MBA and Mannequin. Overall, pretty much just recurring Shriekmaw is really hard to deal with. Epochrasite and Riftwing Cloudskate can also be a nuisance. I've found that Riftsweeper in the sideboard is the best choice for dealing with those two threats. This deck is not just the run-of-the-mill aggro deck that a lot of people seem to think it is. It has very decent late game control, and fears many things more than a Wrath of God or Damnation. Although, I would say that this isn't a deck for the budget minded.
Draft My Cube!
And in both cases, the opponent has used two cards to deal with your one. Seems like card advantage to me.
If a control deck has to bounce and then counter him, then they have used two cards to your one. Meaning, they have wasted two turns and probably haven't dealth with the creatures that you've been consistantly throwing down.
In the second case, Trickbind can definately cancel out an activation. However, Trickbind also hasn't seen much play since Dragonstorm fell out of the top deck spot. Trickbind, at most, will probably be used as a one-of in the sideboards of a Teachings deck, meaning it will usually cost them a Mystical Teachings and the Trickbind to deal with one Garruk. I still don't see how we're not coming out on top.
If the opponent wastes multiple turns, mana, and resources to eliminate a SINGLE Garruk Wildspeaker, than I'd say that Garruk served his purpose just as much as he would have spawning out beast tokens or pumping for an Overrun. And after all is said and done, we still have more copies of Garruk that they have to deal with.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Boreal Druid
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
3 Shriekmaw
3 Masked Admirers
2 Thornweald Archer
2 Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
4 Nameless Inversion
3 Profane Command
2 Loxodon Warhammer
Lands
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Treetop Village
6 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Eyeblight's Ending
3 Riftsweeper
1 Masked Admirers
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tarmogoyf
I have yet to test this iteration of the deck, but here are my explanations.
I relegated 'Goyf to the board, where he will be put in for matches where...he is bound to be beefy.
I also boarded Eyeblight's (and am open to full out removing it from the side in favor of Deathmark) because I would rather not wait for the three open mana to kill something. Yes, this deck is big on mana, but it is also big on playing creatures too. You can kill something while not wasting a turn with inversion. Inversion kills enough relevant creatures to make the cut.
I also took out one Shriekmaw.
For the Goyfs and Shriekmaw, I added an Admirers maindeck, added two Warhammers, and added two Thornweald Archer for kicks.
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This is ridiculous. Then I guess every single plausible good card is horrible then, since those cards will always get countered? Back to reality please; the fact that he's one of the bigger threats in your deck is EXACTLY why you run him; increasing your threat density is always good, especially when your thickening it with cards quite so flat out good. Using Thorns is an all right solution, but Thorns is nowhere near broad enough to merit a slot in the MD; Garruk, on the other hand, is easily one of the best planeswalkers, and is one of the most prominent threats in standard by himself. Forcing them to hold back a counter for Garruk, of, if you're lucky in the matchup, Garruks, forces them to play much more on edge, which means more of your beaters come through and less of their threats; later in the game, its still a great tempo play, since, as we've established, Garruk is a "must coutner" card. While, of course, the deck will have situations where Guile comes down to harass him, forcing them to counter the Garruk, leads the way for your removal spells, which, while you'll still be at a disadvantage, gives you a few more turns to live. And in other situations, where the "Sonic Boom" isn't possible, forcing them to counter it keep them on their toes, which will often give you the tempo needed to win the game. "Because they can answer it" is never a valid reason not to play a card, unless your entire deck shapes itself around that card; as that's not happening here, I'm not entirely sure where you're coming from. And, of course, if you really like Eyes or Thorn quite so much, you could always run both if you have the room; finding that room may be a problem however, as neither card is spectacular on its own; Garruk, on the other hand, is always amazing.
Also... sorry if the argument's not quite level; this was more a jump-in argument than anything, so I don't really have the whole picture. It seems like Skizzet is attempting to argue that Garruk is a poor card, though... and that's bull.
If you're looking for a kill spell that lets you keep casting creatures, might I recommend Slaughter Pact? With the only drawback of the card being a failure to kill black creatures, you get a spell that lets you tap out any/all the time, thus allowing you to develope the board at your best speed, while still always being able to kill problematic creatures at will.
It's worked very well for me.
`Nim
3 mana now or 3 mana later doesn't make much difference to me. However, I do have a playset of those and could stand to test them out in the deck.
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Indeed, thats what I ment. Dropping an "anthem" elf on turn 3/4 and removing a blocker that same turn is pretty nice and rather hard to come back from. Its also nice for forcing play mistakes as I find people don't think about Slaughter Pact too much at the moment.
`Nim
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Those are all fine cards indeed, however urzassedatives was asking for other options because he didn't like how one of them was working for him. This is probably a personal/meta choice more then anything else so nearly any combination of cards could be good for your removal depending on what works for you. I, for example, don't run any removal main deck and I do just fine.
Just goes to show that even a competitive deck has plenty of variations.
`Nim
IMHO, your biggest problem here is that you're playing 4 Wren's Run Vanquishers with only 15 elves maindeck. That seems a little too harsh. I would swap the 4 Shriekmaws and the 4 Eyeblight's Endings (from maindeck to sb). Not just for the fact that its an elf, but because it just takes out more things than Shriekmaw aswell.
Draft My Cube!
Blahhhhh.
Just did the Northeast Challenge at my store. Top 4 was:
U/B mannequin, U/B/W mannequin, U/B mannequin, Elves (me)
Truth be told, I didn't do enough testing of my build, and after this event, I now know what is trash and what is good.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Boreal Druid
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
3 Shriekmaw
3 Masked Admirers
2 Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
4 Slaughter Pact
2 Profane Command
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Loxodon Warhammer
Lands - 21
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Treetop Village
6 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Nameless Inversion
3 Riftsweeper
1 Masked Admirers
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tarmogoyf
The above deck is the deck that I played.
Good cards:
-Profane Command worked beautifully. My only complaint was that I didn't get it often enough, and the 2 black mana (for some reason) was sometimes an issue.
-Masked Admirers are a favorite. I think 3 is a good number for them in this deck, as you don't want a hand full of them, but playing them is the way to go for sure.
-GARRUK. This deck ran on the back of the overrunning nightmareman. I completely understand why people may choose to not shell out for him, but the deck is just so much better with him than without him. People still don't know when it is right to attack planeswalkers or the player...
-Vanquisher. Obviously.
-Imperious Perfect only stayed on the board long enough to make a token/attack maybe twice in 5 rounds. Some games it was used as a Warrior's Honor, on turns when I overran anyway...
-Shriekmaw. 3 Is a good number. I don't like to have too many, and he was always gravy to have. Evoking him is usually what was done.
Iffyness:
-Slaughter Pact. I am still unsure about this removal slot. It was nice to use this surprise factor card, but I felt slowed down by it when I had to pay for it the next turn. I could see dumping these for Inversions, and then replacing the boarded Inversions for Deathmarks.
-Loxodon Warhammer. In the games where I got it to stick, it was a win more. In other games, it was irrelevant. (vs Doran, of course...and don't even bother against Mannequin...) I am taking it out for a land and a command.
-Nath of the Gilf-Leaf. I could never get him to stick either, despite how few spells can kill him outright. I was always siding him out. I might just put 'Goyf back into the deck, actually.
My sideboard was a mess. I need a better one. It doesn't really have good answers to Mannequin. Riftsweeper isn't the NUTZ against Mannequin. I would rather have had many other cards.
*bids on Extirpates*
I went 3-2 with the deck, snagging fourth place. I beat two not-exactly-tier1 decks, and a Doran.dec. Doran rolls over to Garruk. But it influenced what cards are just...not so great in the deck. The blink Mannequin deck hit me with a damnation in game two... (I still had a hand full of creatures, but he gained control of the board after...and that was that) And before anyone says it, Prowess of the Fair is no answer to a Mannequin deck, with all their bounce shenanigans. I just had two horrid games against the mannequin.dec, mulliganning (my own mistake actually) to 4 first game, and having a subpar second game, making the final game a speedy affair.
Proposed new decklist:
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Boreal Druid
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
3 Shriekmaw
3 Masked Admirers
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Nameless Inversion
3 Profane Command
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
Lands - 22
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Treetop Village
6 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Deathmark
3 Riftsweeper
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tarmogoyf
Comments?
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A storage land isn't really necessary in this deck. The mana dudes make a big command likely.
I am running maindeck inversions already, as I have said above.
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