Do they bring Pyroclasm out of the board, or any other kind of board sweeper? When I play mana ramp games two and three they always seem to have 8x Board sweepers backed by Primal Command and a set of Colossus, it is pretty brutal any way you slice it.
Usually they don't have 8, they usually have the 3/3 split on Clasm and blast. Either way it is a tough match, as ramp is crafted to pretty much beat every deck.
Usually they don't have 8, they usually have the 3/3 split on Clasm and blast. Either way it is a tough match, as ramp is crafted to pretty much beat every deck.
Must, beat, mana, ramp !!!!
The 15 card all discard SB actually showed more success than anything else, too bad every other matchup got insignificantly harder
Played in a local standard tournament today.
I'm not going to list my deck again as I've done that on this board before . . .
My match ups before placing Top 4 were:
Player 1: G/R Big Mana (Won 2-1!)
Player 2: G/W Janky crap (Won 2-0)
Player 3: U/B Faeries w/ Damnation main (lost 2-1)
Player 4: G/R Big Mana (Draw)
I was VERY pleased that I beat G/R Big Mana, especially pre-board. Winning the dice roll was key, also main deck Thoughtseize and Noggin Whacks is SO good. Playing Rogues is NOT easy people. It's very important to remove the right cards via Thoughtseize, Noggin Whacks, and Earwig Squad. As written in Shin's article, this is not your typical aggro deck.
I found the Faeries MU to be difficult. But that was my fault. Post board I didn't side in all of my nameless inversions, which I found to be a big mistake. But at least I won a game due to Sudden Spoiling leading to a one sided wrath! We both had 6 creatures on the board
Re: Bitterblossom
You guys need to test your decks against the top decks in the meta. Not playing Bitterblossom means you will get destroyed by Faeries and Rock. It also means your deck is going to run out of gas before other Rogue players that are packing Bitterblossom.
Bitterblossom is basically a must if you run B. BR Goblins run it. I can't see a BR Rogues list not running it... It's like blasphemy to me. Whatever floats your boat though.
Anyways, here's a more aggro Bu list for those who want something in between MBR and Bu. It still has an extremely fast game 1, on par with MBR in most ways (8 reach spells can actually put you ahead in general), and can side for a stronger MU vs Big Mana and aggro. It's all reletive, I know, but this is where my list stands.
THIS LIST IS STILL IN TESTING. Biggest thing you see is the lack of Earwigs. This is only temporary, to try out a full MBR aggro list, with more emphasis on evasion+burn (and pump), rather than adding more disruption. It'll go back in when I'm done with this little experiment. It's noticeably faster, and I truly believe that the 8 burns are right, but Latchkey will probably get axed for Earwig most likely. That is, a full playset of earwigs, as I'm also testing lists with 3 Stinkdrinkers, functioning more as Overruns, as that's all they essentially are most of the time, and the evasive men are better in numbers. Flashfreeze>Negate for now, as I like being able to counter Collossus/Thresher if need-be. Not being able to counter a Damnation is irrelevant, as it's the red/green cards that are killing us the most right now (Rune Snags might be best in the long haul though).
We'll see. Lots of little tweaks.
Ok, but what happens when they wrath your board? A "PURE AGGRO DECK" needs a way to keep up. Just like Borderguard/Griffin Guide/Axe (in a sense) in other aggros, Rogues needs a fast way to recover (on TOP of not overextending). Mutavault is best for this, but that's only 4 cards. 3 Bitterblossom is just amazing. Like I said, we'll agree to disagree that Bitterblossom= win for aggro, regardless of how "pure" it is, but I'm sure most players will agree with me regardless. It's win-win.
And yes, I understand the "behavior" of a Rogue deck.
I really think that the blue splash is worth it in this deck. Because you have to run so many 1 mana enablers they can be quite awful late game, extra card drawing and the addition of Psi Blast give a little more reach. I have always found Morsel Theft to be amazing in that it pushes through non-combat damage and gets you an extra card.
Aaaaaand 68 pages later I've spent an entire afternoon reading this thread I've just assembled as much of this deck as I can, my list is presently as follows:
The less-than-4-ofs are due to me not having the cards, except in the case of Bitterblossom and Marsh Flitter, since I only really want one of each. So far I've only been playing it casually since constructed tournaments are few and far between in Australia, but I took some lessons away from a match against my friend's burn deck (Some cards may not be in standard, but it's not like the burn archetype changes much):
-Despite him playing Leyline of Lightning for free every game and mountains of burn on top of that, my deck was much faster than his. He was racing me, throwing everything at the face, then i hit him with a stinkdrinker-powered Earwig Squad and a couple of blossom tokens and it was game.
-Once he wised up though and started playing control, it was really hard to do anything significant. He burnt out all my enablers and that was that in most games.
-I wish I'd brought my other cards with me, siding in Cloak and Dagger would have made things so much easier.
I really need to get the extra two Stinkdrinkers and 3 Prowlers, though I'm not sure what to cut. Shin's deck squeezes out Morsel Theft, but I find it is a great help in racing and it draws you an extra card, which is not something rogues does very much of.
If I had the Psionic Blasts I'd definetly try the Bu version - a few counterspells to protect my precious enablers and hold off the big green jello man would be fantastic, I imagine.
Thanks everyone for your discussions so far, it's been educational!
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I imagine Maro has a huge ancient book in his office titled "Tempo Defined" and inside it is hollowed out and there is a bottle of whiskey
Even after a wrath I do not want to see a bitterblossom. After a wrath I like seeing marshflitter.
You want to see Bitterblossom on the field before a Wrath of God and a Marsh Flitter afterward. Bitterblossom is the nuts, and probably the best card black got in Morningtide. The Faerie Enchantment is a godsend in this deck for a plethora of a reason that have been previously discussed, just run it and enjoy it!
I play a BR version of the Rogue deck. After a Wrath I only want to draw a mutavault and to have an Auntie Snitch in the graveyard (dead by the wrath for example). This recovery is faster than the Bitterblossom one and save one card draw (which could be for example burn...)
I can see your point but still I am not convinced...
I play a BR version of the Rogue deck. After a Wrath I only want to draw a mutavault and to have an Auntie Snitch in the graveyard (dead by the wrath for example). This recovery is faster than the Bitterblossom one and save one card draw (which could be for example burn...)
I can see your point but still I am not convinced...
Then they drop a 3/4 Tarmogoyf and there it goes your recover...
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Current Playing [T2]:
UBB Rogues UUB Faeries RW Seismic Swans RRR Control
I've just added blue to my Rogues deck... I'm loving it, and I don't even play Psionic Blast! I will though, when I get some of them.
So, why did I do it? I wanted to try something new. Running MBR was fun, and it won a fair few games. But against Warriors (Chameleon Colossus, Bramblewood Paragon ++) and Sonic Boom-ish decks (Desert being the biggest problem), I've found 1 card making my chances of winning better. Which card? Mistbind Clique
We all know this card, and I've always loved it (and hated seeing it on the other side of the table). Turn 4, it delays Colossus or at least it's a semi-Time Walk. It survives Pyroclasm, evoked Cloudtresher etc. It's not my MVP, but it helps.
Another new favourite of mine, is also a faerie: Pestermite. It will also stall Colossus when it sees play. And that extra turn might be the only thing I need against Warriors to win.
I'm not playing UB faeries, and I'm not playing UB Rogues. I'm playing UB Faerie-Rogues, and it's still a sub-par list. And today, for the first time since Morningtide came out I won against both Warriors and RG Mana Ramp. Both those lists are higly tuned ones.
I'm just sharing some insight. You don't have to agree
I see ppl wanting to add U into their Rogue decks. :/ I tried that. it worked out absolutely spectacularly horribly. Granted it depends on your meta. But the 3cc and the 3 dmg back at you were terrible. The river of tears was sub-par at best. So what was my solution?? Glad you asked! I took out the U for R. Hear me out before you judge. Instead of PsiBlast, you get Incinerate. The 2cc of Incinerate, make the deck infinitely smoother with all the prowl costs you want to play. Another bonus to R over U is that you have the option of Gargadon. How many times have you run into a Wrath only to run out of gas afterwards?? Sac your dying Fae to Gargs and unsuspend him the next turn and smash face. in the SB you now have access to Cryoclasm vs those decks with ***. Another 3 dmg and your oppo loses a land? Sign me up. Especially if I'm playing aggro. And the lands are a small step up from the UB lands IMHO, you get Aunties Hovel ( How many of your rogues are also goblins, hmmm????), Sulfurous Springs and Graven Cairns. A small step up from the UB lands IMHO. I'll be the first to admit that Colossus doesn't die to Incinerate, but it fits into the curve better and works out better. Anyway, just my $0.02.
I will edit this post with my list if anyone wants it. PST me.
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Banner by ME.
***Currently Playing***
Type 2: BRGJUNDGRB
"I'll never see myself in the mirror with my eyes closed."
I've just added blue to my Rogues deck... I'm loving it, and I don't even play Psionic Blast! I will though, when I get some of them.
So, why did I do it? I wanted to try something new. Running MBR was fun, and it won a fair few games. But against Warriors (Chameleon Colossus, Bramblewood Paragon ++) and Sonic Boom-ish decks (Desert being the biggest problem), I've found 1 card making my chances of winning better. Which card? Mistbind Clique
We all know this card, and I've always loved it (and hated seeing it on the other side of the table). Turn 4, it delays Colossus or at least it's a semi-Time Walk. It survives Pyroclasm, evoked Cloudtresher etc. It's not my MVP, but it helps.
Another new favourite of mine, is also a faerie: Pestermite. It will also stall Colossus when it sees play. And that extra turn might be the only thing I need against Warriors to win.
I'm not playing UB faeries, and I'm not playing UB Rogues. I'm playing UB Faerie-Rogues, and it's still a sub-par list. And today, for the first time since Morningtide came out I won against both Warriors and RG Mana Ramp. Both those lists are higly tuned ones.
I'm just sharing some insight. You don't have to agree
You should post your list, every Faerie//Rogue list I make spectacularly sucks, but maybe you pulled it off.
So I just came up with an idea. What about a combination of Noggin Whack, Earwig Squad, Greater Gargadon, and Goatnapper to improve the matchup with Mana ramp? Obviously the noggin whack and earwig squad go off before they get the chance to go crazy with mana-rampnish to neutralize current threats in their hand and future threats in their deck (since most only run 2-3 copies of each threat) whilst Greater Gargadon and Goatnapper take care of Chameleon Colossi?
I think it's worth a shot, at least goatnapper in the SB if you have at least a 50/50 chance g1... or just threaten, but I noticed that Goatnapper steals goats (a.k.a. Changeling) and is a rogue.
"The accumulation of their filth will foam up around their waists, and all the [prostitutes] and politicians will look up and shout, 'SAVE US.' and I'll look down and whisper,'No.'"
Yeah I thought about goatnapper too. At first I dismissed it because I only get the CC for one turn but I realized that afterwards he can block the CC as well.
So I just came up with an idea. What about a combination of Noggin Whack, Earwig Squad, Greater Gargadon, and Goatnapper to improve the matchup with Mana ramp? Obviously the noggin whack and earwig squad go off before they get the chance to go crazy with mana-rampnish to neutralize current threats in their hand and future threats in their deck (since most only run 2-3 copies of each threat) whilst Greater Gargadon and Goatnapper take care of Chameleon Colossi?
I think it's worth a shot, at least goatnapper in the SB if you have at least a 50/50 chance g1... or just threaten, but I noticed that Goatnapper steals goats (a.k.a. Changeling) and is a rogue.
Thats a pretty creative solution, but isn't Thoughtsize strictly better than those options - along with Sudden Spoiling?
Has anyone considered splashing white for cards like mirror entity, condemn, crib swap, and mistmeadow skulk. Mirror entity can help us survive pyroclasms, sulfurous blasts, and cloudthreshers, the other cards can help against cards like chameleon colossus and countryside crushers.
The only problem is that there aren't any lands to support this mana base consistently I think.
Well I think we have plenty of rogues but our biggest problem right now seems to be r/g mana ramp and I figured we could make good use of a lot of white cards at least in our sideboard against it.
seriously though, dodger and skulk are the only rogues in standard in white, and they are both terrible. Skulk is almost certainly in Shadowmoor though, so we might end up with B/W in May!
Stinkdrinker Bandit is our mirror entity, and as for saving the team from pyroclasm Forfend does the same job for a lot less mana (I'm not advocating Forfend btw, just pointing out the weakness of the white rogues). O-Ring or Demystify against opposing bitterblossoms are about the only things that come to mind in white atm.
Usually they don't have 8, they usually have the 3/3 split on Clasm and blast. Either way it is a tough match, as ramp is crafted to pretty much beat every deck.
Must, beat, mana, ramp !!!!
The 15 card all discard SB actually showed more success than anything else, too bad every other matchup got insignificantly harder
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
Well, they do not deck check at my local FNM...Nevermind!!
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
I'm not going to list my deck again as I've done that on this board before . . .
My match ups before placing Top 4 were:
Player 1: G/R Big Mana (Won 2-1!)
Player 2: G/W Janky crap (Won 2-0)
Player 3: U/B Faeries w/ Damnation main (lost 2-1)
Player 4: G/R Big Mana (Draw)
I was VERY pleased that I beat G/R Big Mana, especially pre-board. Winning the dice roll was key, also main deck Thoughtseize and Noggin Whacks is SO good. Playing Rogues is NOT easy people. It's very important to remove the right cards via Thoughtseize, Noggin Whacks, and Earwig Squad. As written in Shin's article, this is not your typical aggro deck.
I found the Faeries MU to be difficult. But that was my fault. Post board I didn't side in all of my nameless inversions, which I found to be a big mistake. But at least I won a game due to Sudden Spoiling leading to a one sided wrath! We both had 6 creatures on the board
Re: Bitterblossom
You guys need to test your decks against the top decks in the meta. Not playing Bitterblossom means you will get destroyed by Faeries and Rock. It also means your deck is going to run out of gas before other Rogue players that are packing Bitterblossom.
Anyways, here's a more aggro Bu list for those who want something in between MBR and Bu. It still has an extremely fast game 1, on par with MBR in most ways (8 reach spells can actually put you ahead in general), and can side for a stronger MU vs Big Mana and aggro. It's all reletive, I know, but this is where my list stands.
4 Mutavault
1 Pendelhaven
4 River of Tears
8 Swamp
4 Underground River
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures 23:
3 Latchkey Faerie
4 Nightshade Stinger
4 Oona's Blackguard
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Prickly Boggart
4 Stinkdrinker Bandit
3 Bitterblossom
4 Morsel Theft
4 Noggin Whack
4 Psionic Blast
3 Sudden Spoiling
2 Extirpate
4 Flashfreeze
2 Deathmark
4 Thoughtseize
THIS LIST IS STILL IN TESTING. Biggest thing you see is the lack of Earwigs. This is only temporary, to try out a full MBR aggro list, with more emphasis on evasion+burn (and pump), rather than adding more disruption. It'll go back in when I'm done with this little experiment. It's noticeably faster, and I truly believe that the 8 burns are right, but Latchkey will probably get axed for Earwig most likely. That is, a full playset of earwigs, as I'm also testing lists with 3 Stinkdrinkers, functioning more as Overruns, as that's all they essentially are most of the time, and the evasive men are better in numbers. Flashfreeze>Negate for now, as I like being able to counter Collossus/Thresher if need-be. Not being able to counter a Damnation is irrelevant, as it's the red/green cards that are killing us the most right now (Rune Snags might be best in the long haul though).
We'll see. Lots of little tweaks.
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Alters for sale
And yes, I understand the "behavior" of a Rogue deck.
Art Page
Alters for sale
Land
20 Swamp
1 Pendelhaven
1 Mutavault
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures
4 Nightshade Stinger
4 Prickly Boggart
4 Oona's Blackguard
1 Oona's Prowler
4 Earwig Squad
2 Stinkdrinker Bandit
3 Marsh Flitter
Other Spells
3 Bitterblossom
4 Noggin Whack
4 Morsel Theft
4 Bad Moon
The less-than-4-ofs are due to me not having the cards, except in the case of Bitterblossom and Marsh Flitter, since I only really want one of each. So far I've only been playing it casually since constructed tournaments are few and far between in Australia, but I took some lessons away from a match against my friend's burn deck (Some cards may not be in standard, but it's not like the burn archetype changes much):
-Despite him playing Leyline of Lightning for free every game and mountains of burn on top of that, my deck was much faster than his. He was racing me, throwing everything at the face, then i hit him with a stinkdrinker-powered Earwig Squad and a couple of blossom tokens and it was game.
-Once he wised up though and started playing control, it was really hard to do anything significant. He burnt out all my enablers and that was that in most games.
-I wish I'd brought my other cards with me, siding in Cloak and Dagger would have made things so much easier.
I really need to get the extra two Stinkdrinkers and 3 Prowlers, though I'm not sure what to cut. Shin's deck squeezes out Morsel Theft, but I find it is a great help in racing and it draws you an extra card, which is not something rogues does very much of.
If I had the Psionic Blasts I'd definetly try the Bu version - a few counterspells to protect my precious enablers and hold off the big green jello man would be fantastic, I imagine.
Thanks everyone for your discussions so far, it's been educational!
You want to see Bitterblossom on the field before a Wrath of God and a Marsh Flitter afterward. Bitterblossom is the nuts, and probably the best card black got in Morningtide. The Faerie Enchantment is a godsend in this deck for a plethora of a reason that have been previously discussed, just run it and enjoy it!
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
can you post your BR build?
Then they drop a 3/4 Tarmogoyf and there it goes your recover...
UBB Rogues
UUB Faeries
RW Seismic Swans
RRR Control
I've just added blue to my Rogues deck... I'm loving it, and I don't even play Psionic Blast! I will though, when I get some of them.
So, why did I do it? I wanted to try something new. Running MBR was fun, and it won a fair few games. But against Warriors (Chameleon Colossus, Bramblewood Paragon ++) and Sonic Boom-ish decks (Desert being the biggest problem), I've found 1 card making my chances of winning better. Which card? Mistbind Clique
We all know this card, and I've always loved it (and hated seeing it on the other side of the table). Turn 4, it delays Colossus or at least it's a semi-Time Walk. It survives Pyroclasm, evoked Cloudtresher etc. It's not my MVP, but it helps.
Another new favourite of mine, is also a faerie: Pestermite. It will also stall Colossus when it sees play. And that extra turn might be the only thing I need against Warriors to win.
I'm not playing UB faeries, and I'm not playing UB Rogues. I'm playing UB Faerie-Rogues, and it's still a sub-par list. And today, for the first time since Morningtide came out I won against both Warriors and RG Mana Ramp. Both those lists are higly tuned ones.
I'm just sharing some insight. You don't have to agree
[High~Light Studios]
But you're not going to be happy in the mirror when the opponent drops a BB and Bad Moon or Scion of Oona (U/B faeries).
I will edit this post with my list if anyone wants it. PST me.
BRGJUNDGRB
You want a bitterblossom active BEFORE they wrath, and then play fglitter after they wrath.
You should post your list, every Faerie//Rogue list I make spectacularly sucks, but maybe you pulled it off.
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
I think it's worth a shot, at least goatnapper in the SB if you have at least a 50/50 chance g1... or just threaten, but I noticed that Goatnapper steals goats (a.k.a. Changeling) and is a rogue.
Thats a pretty creative solution, but isn't Thoughtsize strictly better than those options - along with Sudden Spoiling?
Thanks to [High~Light Studios]
The only problem is that there aren't any lands to support this mana base consistently I think.
seriously though, dodger and skulk are the only rogues in standard in white, and they are both terrible. Skulk is almost certainly in Shadowmoor though, so we might end up with B/W in May!
Stinkdrinker Bandit is our mirror entity, and as for saving the team from pyroclasm Forfend does the same job for a lot less mana (I'm not advocating Forfend btw, just pointing out the weakness of the white rogues). O-Ring or Demystify against opposing bitterblossoms are about the only things that come to mind in white atm.
edit: Ajani Goldmane and Oona's Blackguard is rather exciting actually, but no more exciting than the current deck.