I really really like this deck
Just wondering how it deals with the ol' Ascetic/Hammer combo.
Also wonder about sideboarding strategy.
The 2of Profane Command also seems awesome in this deck. As a reanimation target, it's wonderful. I just wonder, without blink, if Riftwing is strong enough. Shadowmage is also an amazing card, but it's hard to say if it's main or sideboard.
The way I see it, this deck is everything midrange should be. It can stall the board, kills creatures, and has a great long game. The ironfoot/epochrasite combo is sweet (though, ancient grudge is a tad worrying).
When talking about the deck later, he mentioned the only changes he would make to the deck (after having played it in the tourney) would be to add a fourth Damnation to the board in place of either a Gnome or a Needle.
this isn't a deck for crituqe. It's already been critiqued. The only decision involved with the deck is the 3rd grim harvest vs the 4th mouth of ronom. This should be in the competitive section. Mods move it please.
I hate Damnation in the board, -3 Damnation, -1 Extirpate, +4 Sower is what I ran (also md: -1 Venser, +1 Harvest).
this isn't a deck for crituqe. It's already been critiqued. The only decision involved with the deck is the 3rd grim harvest vs the 4th mouth of ronom. This should be in the competitive section. Mods move it please.
This deck isn't competitive at all, leave it here so less people see it so I can q for the car tourney, :(.
this isn't a deck for crituqe. It's already been critiqued. The only decision involved with the deck is the 3rd grim harvest vs the 4th mouth of ronom. This should be in the competitive section. Mods move it please.
I agree, but I didn't think we were really allowed to put decks in the competative section blah blah without mods?
For the record, you can post decks in the competitive forum if they have shown tournament results. If you are in doubt, you can send one of us a PM and ask permission.
I really really like this deck
Just wondering how it deals with the ol' Ascetic/Hammer combo.
Not very well. In the entire 3 weeks of "mock tournament" testing prior to States, Jon Loucks (creator of the deck) did not lose until he faced GW Aggro with a Troll wielding Warhammer.
The ironfoot/epochrasite combo is sweet (though, ancient grudge is a tad worrying).
Combo? You mean because each of them is an absolute house against aggro? Ancient Grudge isn't showing up in many sideboards, and using Grudge on Epochrasite is hardly a "scary" play. It would have to be Grudge in combination with Nova Chaser or Phage or something else that can win in one attack.
Doesn't seem like the ... best solution
But edict or even smallpox could help against Ascetic. Not sure if you have enoguh removal to keep the non-trolls off your opponents side of the board. Your artifact mean can hold down a naked troll for a bit, but hammer and troll... pithing needle can only help so much. I'd almost consider running thoughtseize. Troll and hammer are relatively slow, so pulling tehm out your opponents hand can save you a world of hurt... more than makes up for the 2life
as for combo, i just meant running 4 of each (they don't play together in any meaningful way... but rather give you 8 slots of chump blocking might). many decks i've seen run 4 of one or the other, and, while I prefer Ironfoot if i have to choose, I love seeing a deck that runs a full playset of both. sadly, the epochrasite doesn't play as well with mannequin as it does with blink (as it's rarely in your grave).
Doesn't seem like the ... best solution
But edict or even smallpox could help against Ascetic.
I think Smallpox is a bad call for both the deck and the meta, but I haven't tested the deck myself, so don't take my word for it. Damnations and Pithing Needles from the board can help some.
sadly, the epochrasite doesn't play as well with mannequin as it does with blink (as it's rarely in your grave).
Yeah, but when it is in the 'yard Mannequin becomes a discount Beast Attack, with the added benefit that if your opponent tries to bounce Epochrasite it just gets suspended for 3 turns. Profane Command does good things with a discarded Epochrasite as well.
I'm probably playing this in GP Krakow. I was just wondering how is the matchup against Rack with Haakon/Inversion engine supposed to be, because I can't seem to find a solution to it in time. Double Command would to it, but that takes way too much time to find and I'll die to Prowler beatdown before that.
Save Cloudskates and Vensers for bouncing Haakon (unless Prowler is already in play, in which case bouncing Haakon does nothing); you should have enough Mulldrifters + Mulldrifter recursion to block Prowler, or just fling Mouth of Ronom at it. The matchup isn't great, but it isn't an auto-loss.
Are Needles really useful in the sideboard? They answer planeswalkers, but so does Psionic Blast. I'm also wondering if the Mournwhelks are really the best choice. Actually, the whole sideboard has me wondering.
Trust me, as a member of TUS who tested with and vs. the deck a lot, the SB a all solid. Needle also kills Treetop Village w/o taking 2, preemptively stops Walkers (key as they activate right then with Psi Blast), Warhammer, Troll, etc. It's a generic catch all for States on top of that.
Shapeshifter doesn't really fill a hole. It doesn't wreck aggro (ie. Ironfoot) or help you generate a critical mass of card advanl.tage (evoke guys). Plus, typically an inplay Maw or Drifter means it returned to play after an evoke, so a Shapeshifter is almost overkill.
Personally I don't like Epochrasite, but it has to be there to shut down aggro.
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This deck isn't competitive at all, leave it here so less people see it so I can q for the car tourney, :(.
I don't really think this deck beingg moved to the competitive section of the forum will hamper our chances of winning a tournament at a new jersey cardshop, especially if you make the trek down to AC.
Edit: I don't love damnation eithe,r but I'm not 100% on sower either. It seems deathmark is very good in the match-ups where damnation and sower would be played.
One other question... is 26 land the right number
I know with all the evoke/harvest shenanigans this deck is pretty mana hungry, but that still seems quite high... if anything, couldn't we swap some lands for mindstones? or do the mouths/faeries mean we're cool with such a high ratio?
One other question... is 26 land the right number
I know with all the evoke/harvest shenanigans this deck is pretty mana hungry, but that still seems quite high... if anything, couldn't we swap some lands for mindstones? or do the mouths/faeries mean we're cool with such a high ratio?
Think of the deck sort of like Pickles minus mana artifacts, you don't really want to miss a land drop, which is the reason for 26 lands. I think you might be able to go to 25, but I'd not go lower then that.
Would it be worthwhile to cut a swamp for a singleton Urborg? This doesn't seem like a deck that is all that hungry for black mana, and so taking out an opponent's urborg might actually be a benefit.
Other than that, I really like the list a lot. I wish I had known about it pre-states, because this is entirely the deck I was looking for.
I also think 26 seems to be the right number of lands, although I have no testing to back it up, so I'm just making claims at this point.
My old bro Ixidron does nothing against token swarms, only affects smaller creatures, which can be VERY useful against halfling/other tribal decks that focus off of tribal benefits, giving you the ability to: Morph your stuff again, Nerf their current cards in play, and make their future cards less powerful.
Interesting deck, seems well tested to have good results
I don't really think this deck beingg moved to the competitive section of the forum will hamper our chances of winning a tournament at a new jersey cardshop, especially if you make the trek down to AC.
Edit: I don't love damnation eithe,r but I'm not 100% on sower either. It seems deathmark is very good in the match-ups where damnation and sower would be played.
but even the inventor is scared of hammered trolls. so i dunno why you guys would wanna drop the damnations.
Now i have an alternate deck fo GP Krakow ...
On the build - i donn really like Finkels in this deck and it is because of the same reason i donn like them in Teachings deck - they are too fragile to any removal in Standart rite now. Fo sho, they were good in Block but in 2days Standart ... what do yall say? I think that it's not that bad to replace them wit 2 Chronicles and mayb 2 SS or 2 Considerations ...
i also wonder what are the odds against wat decks? can anyone provide us wit MU percentage? holla
A few notes (some of these are simply too difficult to explain in depth without actually seeing the deck in action):
-Shadowmage is amazing. This deck is a card advantage machine built to get in with evasive damage. A card that is a combination of those two aspects most definitely makes the grade.
-26 lands is correct. The only time this deck will lose is if it misses land drops. Your lands do things as well. This is why I upped the Mouth and Conclave count to 4X shortly before states. I wanted to always have something to do with excess mana.
-Damnation was definitely the MVP of the board. I would most definitely run 4X in light of States. Even with the surprise factor gone, it still plays similarly to how Glare would perform against other decks with creatures after board from years past when Glare brought in SB Wraths. This is that both decks would aim to commit enough of it's forces to the board to overwhelm the opponent similar to a situation in most limited formats. Damnation (or Wrath) shoots this plan directly in the face. If they don't know you have it, they walk into it and you win the game. If they know you are playing it, you are free to put the pressure on them before they seek to overwhelm you as they fear the mass-removal blowout.
-Urborg seems like a mistake in that there is the possibility of it assisting your opponent. The possibility is small, but still outweighs the need for you to include it (the mana base works excellently as it is).
-Needles were solid additions. In my matchup against UG Scryb I was facing down a Troll w/Hammer and a topdecked Needle allowed me to use the Venser in hand to bounce Hammer and Needle it before it could be replayed. Versatility like that is why you need to run it, as the format is still very, very random. Possibly with a more refined gauntlet could you remove the card for something else in the sideboard.
-Mournwhelk is a beating, plain and simple. This deck can often use him to wipe out most, if not all, of an opponents hand. Not to mention the 3/3 left behind. He works very well with the sideboarded Extirpates versus the control decks.
Their was originally 1 urborg in the deck. mascioli took it out after he got tendrills for a lots when his opponent didn't even havee an urborg in play. The deck has very stable mana and it's just not worth potentially helping your opponents.
This deck just wants to make DI drops. With mouth, and conclave you make good use out of your lands so it's fine.
What do you guys think about Razormane Masticore as a 1-2 of (maybe replacing some of the ironfoot). There is lots of card advantage in the deck, so he can stay alive for a long while. He beats up Doran, is extra creature removal and helps get guys in your yard for mannequin shenanigans. He also dodges shreikmaw and terror just like ironfoot.
The biggest problem I have with infiltrator is that this deck can't permanently illuminate the black and blue artifacts that block him. Of course, with Venser and Riftwing support, I can't imagine this is much of a problem as Infiltrator connecting even once can be pretty devastating.
Against Haakon, do you just rely on it being really slow, and then expirate in the board? Haakon himself is pretty easy to deal with and, if it's not being recurred, and you don't really care about your creatures being killed 1for1, seeing as they've all done their part already.
I've noticed is I've seen two lists. One that runs 2 vensers and 2 profane commands, and one that runs 1 and 3. Both cards can be completely back breaking, so I'm curious what you think the more correct ratio is.
A couple of questions about playing the deck:
Firstly, I take it you evoke your evokables whenever possible, with the assumption you'll get the back later.
Also, do you ever leave grim harvest in the yard without recover mana up. Against certain decks, I guess there's no liability in doing this, but being forced to remove it from the game seems pretty upsetting.
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4 Mulldrifter
4 Phyrexian Ironfoot
4 Riftwing Cloudskate
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Shriekmaw
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Grim Harvest
4 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Profane Command
4 Mouth of Ronom
4 River of Tears
3 Snow-Covered Island
7 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Underground River
3 Bottle Gnomes
3 Damnation
3 Extirpate
3 Mournwhelk
3 Pithing Needle
Looks very strong if you ask me Gaining tons of CA with the evokers and the instant reanimation and then more CA with that.
Just wondering how it deals with the ol' Ascetic/Hammer combo.
Also wonder about sideboarding strategy.
The 2of Profane Command also seems awesome in this deck. As a reanimation target, it's wonderful. I just wonder, without blink, if Riftwing is strong enough. Shadowmage is also an amazing card, but it's hard to say if it's main or sideboard.
The way I see it, this deck is everything midrange should be. It can stall the board, kills creatures, and has a great long game. The ironfoot/epochrasite combo is sweet (though, ancient grudge is a tad worrying).
And I agree, the deck looks very strong.
`Nim
This deck isn't competitive at all, leave it here so less people see it so I can q for the car tourney, :(.
I agree, but I didn't think we were really allowed to put decks in the competative section blah blah without mods?
For the record, you can post decks in the competitive forum if they have shown tournament results. If you are in doubt, you can send one of us a PM and ask permission.
Not very well. In the entire 3 weeks of "mock tournament" testing prior to States, Jon Loucks (creator of the deck) did not lose until he faced GW Aggro with a Troll wielding Warhammer.
Combo? You mean because each of them is an absolute house against aggro? Ancient Grudge isn't showing up in many sideboards, and using Grudge on Epochrasite is hardly a "scary" play. It would have to be Grudge in combination with Nova Chaser or Phage or something else that can win in one attack.
But edict or even smallpox could help against Ascetic. Not sure if you have enoguh removal to keep the non-trolls off your opponents side of the board. Your artifact mean can hold down a naked troll for a bit, but hammer and troll... pithing needle can only help so much. I'd almost consider running thoughtseize. Troll and hammer are relatively slow, so pulling tehm out your opponents hand can save you a world of hurt... more than makes up for the 2life
as for combo, i just meant running 4 of each (they don't play together in any meaningful way... but rather give you 8 slots of chump blocking might). many decks i've seen run 4 of one or the other, and, while I prefer Ironfoot if i have to choose, I love seeing a deck that runs a full playset of both. sadly, the epochrasite doesn't play as well with mannequin as it does with blink (as it's rarely in your grave).
I think Smallpox is a bad call for both the deck and the meta, but I haven't tested the deck myself, so don't take my word for it. Damnations and Pithing Needles from the board can help some.
Yeah, but when it is in the 'yard Mannequin becomes a discount Beast Attack, with the added benefit that if your opponent tries to bounce Epochrasite it just gets suspended for 3 turns. Profane Command does good things with a discarded Epochrasite as well.
What about Ixidron to deal with untargetable creatures and/or swarms??
Voidmage Husher?
Save Cloudskates and Vensers for bouncing Haakon (unless Prowler is already in play, in which case bouncing Haakon does nothing); you should have enough Mulldrifters + Mulldrifter recursion to block Prowler, or just fling Mouth of Ronom at it. The matchup isn't great, but it isn't an auto-loss.
Shapeshifter doesn't really fill a hole. It doesn't wreck aggro (ie. Ironfoot) or help you generate a critical mass of card advanl.tage (evoke guys). Plus, typically an inplay Maw or Drifter means it returned to play after an evoke, so a Shapeshifter is almost overkill.
Personally I don't like Epochrasite, but it has to be there to shut down aggro.
I don't really think this deck beingg moved to the competitive section of the forum will hamper our chances of winning a tournament at a new jersey cardshop, especially if you make the trek down to AC.
Edit: I don't love damnation eithe,r but I'm not 100% on sower either. It seems deathmark is very good in the match-ups where damnation and sower would be played.
I know with all the evoke/harvest shenanigans this deck is pretty mana hungry, but that still seems quite high... if anything, couldn't we swap some lands for mindstones? or do the mouths/faeries mean we're cool with such a high ratio?
Think of the deck sort of like Pickles minus mana artifacts, you don't really want to miss a land drop, which is the reason for 26 lands. I think you might be able to go to 25, but I'd not go lower then that.
Other than that, I really like the list a lot. I wish I had known about it pre-states, because this is entirely the deck I was looking for.
I also think 26 seems to be the right number of lands, although I have no testing to back it up, so I'm just making claims at this point.
Interesting deck, seems well tested to have good results
but even the inventor is scared of hammered trolls. so i dunno why you guys would wanna drop the damnations.
On the build - i donn really like Finkels in this deck and it is because of the same reason i donn like them in Teachings deck - they are too fragile to any removal in Standart rite now. Fo sho, they were good in Block but in 2days Standart ... what do yall say? I think that it's not that bad to replace them wit 2 Chronicles and mayb 2 SS or 2 Considerations ...
i also wonder what are the odds against wat decks? can anyone provide us wit MU percentage? holla
-Shadowmage is amazing. This deck is a card advantage machine built to get in with evasive damage. A card that is a combination of those two aspects most definitely makes the grade.
-26 lands is correct. The only time this deck will lose is if it misses land drops. Your lands do things as well. This is why I upped the Mouth and Conclave count to 4X shortly before states. I wanted to always have something to do with excess mana.
-Damnation was definitely the MVP of the board. I would most definitely run 4X in light of States. Even with the surprise factor gone, it still plays similarly to how Glare would perform against other decks with creatures after board from years past when Glare brought in SB Wraths. This is that both decks would aim to commit enough of it's forces to the board to overwhelm the opponent similar to a situation in most limited formats. Damnation (or Wrath) shoots this plan directly in the face. If they don't know you have it, they walk into it and you win the game. If they know you are playing it, you are free to put the pressure on them before they seek to overwhelm you as they fear the mass-removal blowout.
-Urborg seems like a mistake in that there is the possibility of it assisting your opponent. The possibility is small, but still outweighs the need for you to include it (the mana base works excellently as it is).
-Needles were solid additions. In my matchup against UG Scryb I was facing down a Troll w/Hammer and a topdecked Needle allowed me to use the Venser in hand to bounce Hammer and Needle it before it could be replayed. Versatility like that is why you need to run it, as the format is still very, very random. Possibly with a more refined gauntlet could you remove the card for something else in the sideboard.
-Mournwhelk is a beating, plain and simple. This deck can often use him to wipe out most, if not all, of an opponents hand. Not to mention the 3/3 left behind. He works very well with the sideboarded Extirpates versus the control decks.
(list not current)
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(list is always current)
This deck just wants to make DI drops. With mouth, and conclave you make good use out of your lands so it's fine.
Against Haakon, do you just rely on it being really slow, and then expirate in the board? Haakon himself is pretty easy to deal with and, if it's not being recurred, and you don't really care about your creatures being killed 1for1, seeing as they've all done their part already.
I've noticed is I've seen two lists. One that runs 2 vensers and 2 profane commands, and one that runs 1 and 3. Both cards can be completely back breaking, so I'm curious what you think the more correct ratio is.
A couple of questions about playing the deck:
Firstly, I take it you evoke your evokables whenever possible, with the assumption you'll get the back later.
Also, do you ever leave grim harvest in the yard without recover mana up. Against certain decks, I guess there's no liability in doing this, but being forced to remove it from the game seems pretty upsetting.