I feel like Shalai is interesting, but isn't she just kind of win more? If you have that much mana, hopefully you've found Verdurous Gearhulk and swung for the win? She doesn't protect from board wipes which are generally the biggest weakness of the deck.
I might be wrong, but that's my gut feeling. Blue at least gives us Negate. Plus the black allows us Duress.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I couldn't care less about the second ability. I care about the Oprah Winfrey-style hexproof, which specifically protects from Settle the Wreckage. The flying body isn't bad either. I will say that I'm more interested in it for other decks though.
Oh d***. I didn't notice that Settle targets the player. I figured based on the attacking prereq it was probably just exile all attacking creatures. Well, now I can start to see it. Only having to worry about Fumigate might be nice.
Edit: Though I still feel like Sultai should be alright between Negate, Duress, and their need to draw those specific cards we are weak to. That and Settle can be played around.
"Oprah Winfrey style hexproof" I think you found the evergreen term for this if they ever need it.
I think the last ability of Shalia, Voice of Plenty looks decent. The plus one counters for 6 should help close out some games. It's not the reason she might be included, but having that ability doesn't hurt at all. I could see games where that ability helps close out the game at a critical moment.
The problem to me lies in that we already have Bristling Hydra and Ravenous Chupacabra in the 4 drop slot which are on color and really good. Also, I wouldn't cut Gearhulk for this chica either. I'm not seeing much more in white that seems to justify the splash. I mean Vraska's Contempt is easy enough to cast if you're not playing 3 colors.
"Oprah Winfrey style hexproof" I think you found the evergreen term for this if they ever need it.
I think the last ability of Shalia, Voice of Plenty looks decent. The plus one counters for 6 should help close out some games. It's not the reason she might be included, but having that ability doesn't hurt at all. I could see games where that ability helps close out the game at a critical moment.
This,
I find myself in boardstalls often and this can be repeatable advantage on an evasive body.
I've found that whilst strong on its own and with friends, the gearhulk does not always close out games.
The problem to me lies in that we already have Bristling Hydra and Ravenous Chupacabra in the 4 drop slot which are on color and really good. Also, I wouldn't cut Gearhulk for this chica either. I'm not seeing much more in white that seems to justify the splash. I mean Vraska's Contempt is easy enough to cast if you're not playing 3 colors.
Bristling Hydra is a mainstay, but with the bannings i've found it less likely to have the three energy counters for hydra when digging with Glint-Sleeve Siphoner.
The deck always has been a little heavy in the 4drop slot after the bannings, but focussing more on this aspect, whilst optimizing for Adventurous Impulse makes running Servant of the Conduit and Rishkar, Peema Renegade more meaningfull.
Pair these cards with the explorers and we potentially can have a leaner, a little more Green centered (untapped green on T1) manabase, which tops at 4cmc and ramps further.
What about curving Snake into Ranger into Shalai, this could potentially be a 6/5 hexproof bashing face from turn 4
Verdurous Gearhulk Is still very playable as a one or two off in my view. Just like he was in my winning sultai list, Next to the Scarab God.
I feel like Shalai is interesting, but isn't she just kind of win more? If you have that much mana, hopefully you've found Verdurous Gearhulk and swung for the win? She doesn't protect from board wipes which are generally the biggest weakness of the deck.
I might be wrong, but that's my gut feeling. Blue at least gives us Negate. Plus the black allows us Duress.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I couldn't care less about the second ability. I care about the Oprah Winfrey-style hexproof, which specifically protects from Settle the Wreckage. The flying body isn't bad either. I will say that I'm more interested in it for other decks though.
Triumph of Gerard look kind of cool, but I don't think it will be as effective as you want. The person can save their removal in hand until the last part of the saga goes off to destroy our best creature we just pumped up. I don't like that you don't choose where the counters go. Another 2 drop creature or removal looks a lot better than this. Or blossoming defense.
I like the looks of that G/W/B deck list though. Looking forward to hearing about how the games went.
Well, my meta looked very much the same after being away from it for about 4 months. Tons of "Ramunap" Red running around still. My deck didn't do too well with all the aggro. That said, I did get 4th out of 10, barely losing my game 3 match 4 against a good RR opponent. My curve was just too high. I also should still have been maindecking 4 fatal push given the circumstances. Gearhulk was constantly rotting in my hand or getting boarded out. Chandra's kept killing me with their incidental damage. I shouldn't have been so cocky and taken all of my Vraska's contempt out of the mainboard either. I did like having Cast down mb as it allowed me to take card of some Glorybringers before they could attack for cheap.
So, I'm back to building a "beat red rush" deck. I revamped the deck to include 4 steel leaf champions and a Thrashing brontodon. My deck now likes big butts and it cannot lie. The idea is to get out some early creatures that can't be Lightning Striked away, and can profitably block all of Red aggro's smaller creatures. If we can stick a Hydra or other big butt creature early enough, RR seems to struggle.
In theory, I really like Steel leaf champion's "can't be blocked" clause against RR too. If he comes out early enough, we can actually start to race RR and win, given we have enough removal during the game. I know what you're thinking "GGG?" concessions had to be made for this. I took out Glint-sleeve because we have to run fewer swamps in order to include steel leaf champion. I'm also less confident about casting Vraska's contempt. In some light testing, the color scheme seems to be working out though. Sure, we can't always steel leaf turn 3. However we can often turn 4 steel leaf and leave up a black for fatal push, which is pretty decent too. You can also adventerous impulse into a leaf on turn 4 given the right mana which feels damn fine.
Given I'm going heavy green, I'm also considering adding llanowar elves into the deck. I feel these little fellars could be decent against RR. A lot of their creatures are at 1 toughness, and I just want a one drop against them sometimes. They have to use their kill spells on it to stop us from getting an explosive start, or give us an extra creature to block with later on in the game. Anyone else looking at llanowar elves?
This list will get tuned up, but I think playing steel leaf may be more realistic than I first imagined. Given my small meta including tons of RR, what do you think of this list?
Quick follow up: Given my meta and my need to beat red aggro, I'm actually considering untamed Kavu as an additional 2 drop. The more I look at it, the more it convinces me I could use 1 or 2.
Remember, I'm not playing Glint-sleeve due to mana considerations. Also, I'm becoming more convinced that some adventurous impulse can start to replace Glint-sleeve siphoner. I think the upside of having steel leaf champion and consistent impulse plays is worth the trade off of dropping sleeve and adding more green to the mana base.
Back to kavu. I think my list needs more two drops, but it wouldn't mind something in the 5 slot either. At it's floor, a 2/2 vig. trample, it's still a decent threat against RR. We can usually attack in early game as red continues to have few creatures left up, plus it's left back to block. The ceiling of a 5/5 vig. trample, or 6/6 vig. trample if we have snek out, is crazy high. A 5/5 can't be killed by their best removal spells, namely chandra and glorybringer. A 5/5 will attack past anything on their board barring Hazoret. It will also block anything they can throw at us and live to attack in again.
I think the vigilance aspect is worth looking at for this beat RR build. Thoughts? Can you post your current list?
Kavu is certainly an option, though it does nothing synergystic with our deck untill it's kicked.
What is does do is scale well and lowering the curve of the deck. The vigilance pushes it over the top vs white control's best removal spell right now.
I'm not sure about your assessment on Glint-Sleeve Siphoner vs Adventurous Impulse. One being an CA engine, an Energy engine and a must deal with threat, while the other is Mana Fixing or Card Selection. I wouldn't run without either at this moment.
About the mana. You go heavy on green, but imho absolutely want to be able to cast snake on T2. When running snake, to me, there is no reason to cut siphoner for mana considerations.
You are VERY right about the big buts though. That's why T2 snake into T3 Rishkar is so strong. A 4/5 and 4/4 block for days, even with the "can't block" triggers of mono red.
No offense, but it looks like you're just playing an awkward mono-greenish list. I feel like if you go with the Llanowar Elves route in place of Servant, then you should just drop the entire energy mechanic. Seems pretty bad to have Woodland Cemetery/Fetid Pools, Forest and almost any land besides your 1 or 2 Swamp with Fatal Push and Llanowar Elves sitting in your hand. Short of a turn 1 [b]Blooming Marsh[/c], you may as well play more Cast Down. In general, it won't be a huge deal across a variety of matches, but since you're particularly concerned with mono-Red aggro, it's a very big deal when you're on the draw. I could even see an explore deck working better with that mana base (Wildgrowth Walker can get crazy). Dropping Servant of the Conduit, however, usually means Bristling Hydra is really weak or just useless.
I think Adventurous Impulse looks like a solid card. I just don't think it's a card I want to see many of if my deck is doing it's thing so maybe 1 or 2 in an aggresively built midrange deck? I don't know. I just haven't been up for testing much Standard. That said, I seriously doubt it replaces Glint-Sleeve Siphoner in any fashion, but I'm not exactly sure how you mean this.
So I did a couple of casual matches online with the aforementioned Abzan list. Mainly to check the manabase and the consistency of it with Adventurous Impulse.
Short version, it needs work.
The matches I played were against the new UW control (tough game but loss), UB discard scarab brew thing (scoop) and against BR aggro (win).
I had plenty of forests and thus green mana. Never had I enter a land tapped (except for topdecked fastland) but I could live with some more colour, so I swapped two forests for a swamp and a plains. This also helpes with settle blowouts or Field of Ruin to help us fix. It didn't seem to matter much,
The fixing early and the filtering late from Adventurous Impulse is great and I'll be on four copies for now!
Shalai, Voice of Plenty is just bonkers when she landed and the activation is not at all hard to use when the game goes a little longer.
I kind of miss my maindeck Blossoming Defense because after sideboard Shalai with Defense backup gets a million times stronger in the UW matchup.
I'll sure be testing more in the upcomming days, mainly tune numbers and try to adapt to these mew decks. Will certainly give Untamed Kavu a try since dodging Seal Away seems to be pretty important.
I want to mention Fungal Infection. Given my Red Rush problems I think this card is pretty solid as a sideboard option for me. This one cost spell can easily be a 2 for one against them. Kill a one toughness creature, then surprise block another after they have already used any of their "cannot block effects."
No offense, but it looks like you're just playing an awkward mono-greenish list. I feel like if you go with the Llanowar Elves route in place of Servant, then you should just drop the entire energy mechanic. Seems pretty bad to have Woodland Cemetery/Fetid Pools, Forest and almost any land besides your 1 or 2 Swamp with Fatal Push and Llanowar Elves sitting in your hand. Short of a turn 1 [b]Blooming Marsh[/c], you may as well play more Cast Down. In general, it won't be a huge deal across a variety of matches, but since you're particularly concerned with mono-Red aggro, it's a very big deal when you're on the draw. I could even see an explore deck working better with that mana base (Wildgrowth Walker can get crazy). Dropping Servant of the Conduit, however, usually means Bristling Hydra is really weak or just useless.
I think Adventurous Impulse looks like a solid card. I just don't think it's a card I want to see many of if my deck is doing it's thing so maybe 1 or 2 in an aggresively built midrange deck? I don't know. I just haven't been up for testing much Standard. That said, I seriously doubt it replaces Glint-Sleeve Siphoner in any fashion, but I'm not exactly sure how you mean this.
No offense taken. I actually did put together a mono-green list after building the one I posted above. I think it looks pretty spicy given my meta.
Part of the reason I don't like Glint-sleeve siphoner is that Red has that one drop creature that can be sacrificed to deal one damage to any creature. Glint-sleeve just ended up dying a lot. I felt like I had to drop glint-sleeve in order to ensure I can always play a 2 drop on turn 2. With my list going more green, it seemed to gum up the works to have 8 2 drops that require black to cast. In my online goldfishing run throughs, the deck always had something to play thanks to the branchwalkers, Jadelight Rangers and Adventurous Impulse. What I mean to say is, this list doesn't have to rely on glint-sleeve so much because our hand is usually full of playable cards throughout the game. Also, I think gaining Steel leaf Champion is worth dropping glint-sleeve. I'm trying to consider the cards' effects on the deck as a whole.
Perhaps I neutered my last energy list too much by not playing Servant of the Conduit and Aether Hub. I did run into a problem of having my Bristling Hydra killed in response to the enter the battlefield trigger. I don't see how servant helps much with this though. Playing one of these out before hydra doesn't give you the 3 energy needed for a Hydra activation. The scenarios you're banking on are getting out a snake, having it survive on turn 3 after you play a servant to get the 3 energy needed. Or you have to play 2 servants before hydra comes out, or a servant plus a glint-sleeve siphoner and save all the energy for a hydra when it comes out. This means Servant can't help us ramp or color fix, and Glint-sleeve can't help us draw cards. The list posted on the last page of the thread played 24 lands with 4 of them being aether hub. The 24 lands seems really high, but maybe it makes sense with aether hub? Part of the problem I see with Hub is that if we are trying to save that energy for hydra, hub just becomes a colorless land that doesn't help us fix colors anymore.
Is the idea that keeping all the energy you receive prior to playing a Hydra worth the ability to save the hydra when it enters? That just seems to neuter all the other energy cards played in the list. Perhaps it's well worth it. I'm not an extremely competitive player by any means. Am I just misjudging how important getting that 3 energy is prior to playing out a Hydra? I also just like Merfolk Branchwalker much more than Servant of the conduit as a two drop. Am I over estimating Branchwalker's worthiness compared to Servants? Branwalker also died quite often to red's 1 pinger damage, servant wouldn't do that at least. Finally, I can't think of a better 4 drop than hydra, despite it's energy troubles. Am I overlooking a more playable 4 drop than Hydra?
About your Fatal Push comment (against RR.) Should I just fatal push whatever creature they play out on turn 1 or 2? I've been saving it until after I play a 2 drop usually. Then play another 2 drop turn 3 plus a push at that point. Maybe I've been playing this wrong though. I can see how if they are on the play it becomes more important to push early. Maybe I just need to learn to play better against them then worry about changing my list too much...
You gave me a lot to consider. I'll try and puzzle it out before my next FNM.
I tuned up the last list I posted to include Untamed Kavu. This guy feels pretty great in goldfish testing. His flexibility is super clutch. Between him and impulse, the deck curves out smooth with a 2 drop, 3 drop, 4 drop and possibly a 5 drop and a 6 drop in Walking ballista. Having 6 of these two drop creatures that scale up late game is going to shape up into a pretty big advantage I feel. Not only do you keep from running out of gas, the gas becomes jet-fuel later on! I'm not abandoning this green heavy idea yet, I think steel leaf has merit. This FNM will let me know.
Well, a turn 2 Servant played with an Aether Hub and a green source is 3 energy on turn 2. If you land (and attack with a Siphoner, it's about the same assuming that you don't draw a card (I generally don't against mono Red). I'm not saying it's foolproof, but without Servant, Bristling Hydra's effectiveness is way too inconsistent. The beautiful part about energy is that you get to decide where to spend the energy. You don't have to use every Glint-Sleeve Siphoner trigger if you have available energy. If Bristling Hydra looks like it's going to carry the day, I generally don't use it elsewhere if I'm not forced to do so.
I do agree with Glint-Sleeve Siphoner being very poor against mono Red. The body doesn't play defense well, and it's rare that I ever get to go offensive with it. I generally cut all of them after game 1. I also didn't like Jadelight Ranger that much against them. It basically has to get 2 counters to be of much use to me, and even then, it still only has 3 toughness without a Winding Constrictor.
As for Fatal Push, I kill everything as soon as I can. If I can get their first two turns of play killed and land a Thrashing Brontodon on turn 3, I'm happy. That buys you some time to stabilize assuming they don't have or draw the nuts. Steel Leaf Champion should be equivalent. The weird part about Fatal Push is that it tends to get worse in games 2 and 3. Most mono-Red decks don't stay low to the ground against midrange decks. So I generally dump them after game 1.
I think Untamed Kavu is solid for what you're looking for. The vigilance means you can safely get chip shots in without giving up defense, which is really important against them imo. They play too many haste creatures for us to ever assume we can "safely" attack. Trample seems like a nice touch. I am curious how often it will be relevant for you though.
The only other 2-CMC creature I can think of that's really good against them is Gifted Aetherborn, but I don't know how well that works with your mana base.
I just played two leagues with GB constrictor. It seemed pretty solid, although felt somewhat prone to flooding (especially with Llanowar elves in our list now). With not a lot of fatal pushes around, Winding Constrictor felt really good and you can often keep it around pretty easily but not playing into the tapped creature removal. I was on 4x Jadelight Ranger and 1x Thrashing Brontodon MB, with 3x Brontodon in the SB. Jadelight felt pretty average most of the time, but Brontodon was AMAZING. I bring them in for like literally every matchup. Monored, UW control, any deck with Vehicles, GPG, and even white-based creature decks (they are not the best here but they can at least hit Cast Out and Ixilan's Binding). I would probably cut 2 Jadelight for 2 more brontodons maindeck and keep the 4th in the board.
That's exactly why I just cut Jadelight Ranger for Thrashing Brontodon. It just seemed better as a vanilla creature and the ability generally was more useful.
Karn is really powerful and does just about everything this archetype really wants. Card advantage, board presence, resilience to creature removal, even fills a spot on the curve (4) that's been awkward throughout the archetype's history.
I dislike Servant of the Conduit and am looking for literally anything remotely playable that has more than 1 toughness. I've had Merfolk Branchwalker in here for the synergy between Rishkar and Explore, and I'm even considering playing 2x Treasure Map and a 3rd Harvester, banking on Harvester + Gearhulk being unbeatable for red and calling it a day.
I cut Siphoner because Ballista, Goblin Chainwhirler and Fanatical Firebrand are everywhere. This might be wrong, but I think it's actually fine since Karn generates card advantage and there's no free energy anymore to keep Siphoner humming anyway.
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I think splashing for a third color that isn't red is basically impossible to do smoothly with the available mana, and I also don't think red adds anything as a splash color. Abrade would be a nice pickup, but trying to play it early strains the mana, and you also don't need it anyway.
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I know Karn is expensive and availability is a concern, but I strongly urge y'all to at least print proxies of Karn to test with your buddies. He's really powerful and adds two different angles of attack that this shell doesn't have, and which it very much likes.
Vehicles is such a beating on our creatures, GP results are small but 50% of that top 32 was Vehicles Cut // Ribbons and Unlicensed Disintegration kill our best stuff WITH value. and they have Abrades to spare for our very few Harvesters or to blank our exile removal targeting a Phoenix or Scrounger
Maybe this is the argument for bringing Blossoming Defense back up to 4 of maindeck.
our 1 toughness team(sadface Jadelight Ranger) might be on their way out with Chainwhirler. Llanowar Elves welcome to Standard lol
gonna have to think on this
@scasseden, I can agree with how a lot of people feel about Karn, Scion of Urza and your sentiments on the direction of the deck. It just seems like people are blindly adding it to everything when it doesn't actually do enough for a lot of decks. That said, I kinda feel like energy might be on its way out the door altogether. I think the focus should be on counters instead. I almost feel like mono-green just does what we're trying to do but better and with more consistency. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but I lost my taste for playing GB/x currently.
@scasseden, I can agree with how a lot of people feel about Karn, Scion of Urza and your sentiments on the direction of the deck. It just seems like people are blindly adding it to everything when it doesn't actually do enough for a lot of decks. That said, I kinda feel like energy might be on its way out the door altogether. I think the focus should be on counters instead. I almost feel like mono-green just does what we're trying to do but better and with more consistency. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but I lost my taste for playing GB/x currently.
I Agree with your comment on Karn, I don't think it is what the deck needs at all. We allready have Siphoner for CA and when left unchecked takes over the game. Also, I absolutely don't feel like throwing a great deal of money towards a deck that is going to rotate out in a few months and that's made virtually worthless from a financial standpoint, thanks to the chalanger decks.
I'll stick with straight GB or GBw for now and start brewing in the post rotation standard. I have a strong feeling I know in what direction i'm going with Dominaria.
I absolutely don't feel like throwing a great deal of money towards a deck that is going to rotate out in a few months and that's made virtually worthless from a financial standpoint, thanks to the challenger decks
Constrictor has been a mostly budget conscious list, as long as you're not tossing Torrential Gearhulk & Carnage Tyrant in it's super affordable especially with the challenger shell and the The Scarab Godfalling out of favor so you don't need all those Vraska's Contempt . You probably don't want to go 4 Ballistae now, what with their price rebound since March which brought them back to 20$/per. Thrashing Brontodon is like 3$ now, watch out for that
a challenger 'Counter Surge' deck has almost ~75$ worth of cards in it when they were priced 30-40 bucks. But yeah all the cards rotate. you want the U/W deck if you want cards worth $ that don't all rotate you get to keep almost 25$ from 3 cards in that one.
So I’ve been jamming this Abzan list in practice room and a couple leagues over the last 2 days. Went 3-2 then 4-1 with this 75. Mainly any and all losses were directly to mana issues so I think I need to look at the land situation. But deck felt incredibly powerful and sometimes wins out of nowhere on turn 6.
Some thoughts. One of my losses was to red, as usual Glint Sleeve looks bad in that match up so maybe the main deck needs more removal. I stomped control both times I played them, Shalai took over the game 1 and then serpopard plus bestiary/arguel buried them in card advantage in game 2’s.
Card thoughts. Maybe need a heroic intervention somewhere (don’t own any online currently). Maybe need more removal main, the Gideon’s felt so-so in this shell. Perhaps a couple Chupacabra’s instead. Servant is way better than Elves in 3 color, plus helps fuel Siphoner.
Siphoner is either amazing or a bad card depending on the matchup as it has always been. It’s upside in most outweighs the poor Game 1 vs red tho IMO. Best of luck snaking people.
Hey guys! I’m building this from the challenger deck and was windering if Adventurous Impulse has been worth dropping the extra spell removal. I’m seeing a lot of lists foregoing some removal for Chupacabras, which is nice as sort of searchable removal. Are we keeping a playset if Blossoming Defense still? Thanks!
So I’ve been jamming this Abzan list in practice room and a couple leagues over the last 2 days. Went 3-2 then 4-1 with this 75. Mainly any and all losses were directly to mana issues so I think I need to look at the land situation. But deck felt incredibly powerful and sometimes wins out of nowhere on turn 6.
Some thoughts. One of my losses was to red, as usual Glint Sleeve looks bad in that match up so maybe the main deck needs more removal. I stomped control both times I played them, Shalai took over the game 1 and then serpopard plus bestiary/arguel buried them in card advantage in game 2’s.
Card thoughts. Maybe need a heroic intervention somewhere (don’t own any online currently). Maybe need more removal main, the Gideon’s felt so-so in this shell. Perhaps a couple Chupacabra’s instead. Servant is way better than Elves in 3 color, plus helps fuel Siphoner.
Siphoner is either amazing or a bad card depending on the matchup as it has always been. It’s upside in most outweighs the poor Game 1 vs red tho IMO. Best of luck snaking people.
Interesting list for sure! A couple of questions.
How has Ajani been performing for you? Why take this over (more) Vraska?
How has Seal Away been for you?
I can't really get along with it yet
The manabase is definately tricky, maybe i'll try Scatered Groves and drop Adventurous Impulse to make Seal Away work.
In my current list, the only white source is needed in the 4cmc slot (Shalai and Cast Out) the rest is GB.
Truthfully, I think I would like 2 Vraska, 1 Ajani main, but I only have 1 online currently. Gonna try 2 at FNM tomorrow and see how it goes.
Next iteration I’m going 2 Seal Away, 2 Cast our, 2 Binding. The games I lost were almost all due to mana issues and I think the cycling could be nice. I can often get my board bigger than the Opp, so just making land drops is often better than removal.
Probably some number of cemetery is correct. This started as an experiment to see if it had promise, so now that I’ve done well in leagues it’s time to refine.
Lyra often wasn’t needed to close the game, may move her to SB for anti aggro matches and run more early interaction instead. Or maybe just Brontodons.
While I only know about it from being on the wrong end of things, the mostly green version can do some degenerate stuff.
Elf into Champion into Heart + crew + Ghalta... that's a pretty formidable board to have in play on turn three.
I don't know what all you would have to take out in order to make the stompy package fit, but the basic synergy between giant monsters and Ghalta seems legit.
while mono Gseems tempting the truth is it is not that easy.
the problem with mono G is they are weak to any other decks in current meta except mono R.
most player are already splashing B for scrapheap scroungerduress and vraska's contempt to support control and midrange matchup.
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Oh d***. I didn't notice that Settle targets the player. I figured based on the attacking prereq it was probably just exile all attacking creatures. Well, now I can start to see it. Only having to worry about Fumigate might be nice.
Edit: Though I still feel like Sultai should be alright between Negate, Duress, and their need to draw those specific cards we are weak to. That and Settle can be played around.
I think the last ability of Shalia, Voice of Plenty looks decent. The plus one counters for 6 should help close out some games. It's not the reason she might be included, but having that ability doesn't hurt at all. I could see games where that ability helps close out the game at a critical moment.
The problem to me lies in that we already have Bristling Hydra and Ravenous Chupacabra in the 4 drop slot which are on color and really good. Also, I wouldn't cut Gearhulk for this chica either. I'm not seeing much more in white that seems to justify the splash. I mean Vraska's Contempt is easy enough to cast if you're not playing 3 colors.
I'd very much like to explore white options next to Shalai, Voice of Plenty, Cast Out and Seal Away.
This,
I find myself in boardstalls often and this can be repeatable advantage on an evasive body.
I've found that whilst strong on its own and with friends, the gearhulk does not always close out games.
Bristling Hydra is a mainstay, but with the bannings i've found it less likely to have the three energy counters for hydra when digging with Glint-Sleeve Siphoner.
The deck always has been a little heavy in the 4drop slot after the bannings, but focussing more on this aspect, whilst optimizing for Adventurous Impulse makes running Servant of the Conduit and Rishkar, Peema Renegade more meaningfull.
Pair these cards with the explorers and we potentially can have a leaner, a little more Green centered (untapped green on T1) manabase, which tops at 4cmc and ramps further.
What about curving Snake into Ranger into Shalai, this could potentially be a 6/5 hexproof bashing face from turn 4
Verdurous Gearhulk Is still very playable as a one or two off in my view. Just like he was in my winning sultai list, Next to the Scarab God.
Edit: What about Triumph of Gerrard?
This is my first rough sketch:
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Aether Hub
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Concealed Courtyard
7 Forest
4 Adventurous Impulse
3 Fatal Push
2 Seal Away
1 Cast Out
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Winding Constrictor
3 Merfolk Branchwalker
3 Jadelight Ranger
2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
3 Bristling Hydra
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
4 Duress
3 Blossoming Defense
2 Naturalize
1 Seal Away
2 Deathgorge Scavenger
2 Cast Out
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I literally lol'ed at the Oprah Hexproof
I like the looks of that G/W/B deck list though. Looking forward to hearing about how the games went.
So, I'm back to building a "beat red rush" deck. I revamped the deck to include 4 steel leaf champions and a Thrashing brontodon. My deck now likes big butts and it cannot lie. The idea is to get out some early creatures that can't be Lightning Striked away, and can profitably block all of Red aggro's smaller creatures. If we can stick a Hydra or other big butt creature early enough, RR seems to struggle.
In theory, I really like Steel leaf champion's "can't be blocked" clause against RR too. If he comes out early enough, we can actually start to race RR and win, given we have enough removal during the game. I know what you're thinking "GGG?" concessions had to be made for this. I took out Glint-sleeve because we have to run fewer swamps in order to include steel leaf champion. I'm also less confident about casting Vraska's contempt. In some light testing, the color scheme seems to be working out though. Sure, we can't always steel leaf turn 3. However we can often turn 4 steel leaf and leave up a black for fatal push, which is pretty decent too. You can also adventerous impulse into a leaf on turn 4 given the right mana which feels damn fine.
Given I'm going heavy green, I'm also considering adding llanowar elves into the deck. I feel these little fellars could be decent against RR. A lot of their creatures are at 1 toughness, and I just want a one drop against them sometimes. They have to use their kill spells on it to stop us from getting an explosive start, or give us an extra creature to block with later on in the game. Anyone else looking at llanowar elves?
This list will get tuned up, but I think playing steel leaf may be more realistic than I first imagined. Given my small meta including tons of RR, what do you think of this list?
1x Llanowar elves
4x Winding Constrictor
4x merfolk branchwalker
3x walking ballista
1x Thrashing brontodon
4x Steel leaf Champion
3x Jadelight ranger
2x Rishkar, Peema Renegade
4x Bristling Hydra
1x Blossoming defense
3x Adventurous Impulse
4x Fatal Push
2x Cast Down
1x Vraska's Contempt
land 23
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Woodland Cemetery
2x Foul Orchard
8x forest
5x swamp
Remember, I'm not playing Glint-sleeve due to mana considerations. Also, I'm becoming more convinced that some adventurous impulse can start to replace Glint-sleeve siphoner. I think the upside of having steel leaf champion and consistent impulse plays is worth the trade off of dropping sleeve and adding more green to the mana base.
Back to kavu. I think my list needs more two drops, but it wouldn't mind something in the 5 slot either. At it's floor, a 2/2 vig. trample, it's still a decent threat against RR. We can usually attack in early game as red continues to have few creatures left up, plus it's left back to block. The ceiling of a 5/5 vig. trample, or 6/6 vig. trample if we have snek out, is crazy high. A 5/5 can't be killed by their best removal spells, namely chandra and glorybringer. A 5/5 will attack past anything on their board barring Hazoret. It will also block anything they can throw at us and live to attack in again.
I think the vigilance aspect is worth looking at for this beat RR build. Thoughts? Can you post your current list?
What is does do is scale well and lowering the curve of the deck. The vigilance pushes it over the top vs white control's best removal spell right now.
I'm not sure about your assessment on Glint-Sleeve Siphoner vs Adventurous Impulse. One being an CA engine, an Energy engine and a must deal with threat, while the other is Mana Fixing or Card Selection. I wouldn't run without either at this moment.
About the mana. You go heavy on green, but imho absolutely want to be able to cast snake on T2. When running snake, to me, there is no reason to cut siphoner for mana considerations.
You are VERY right about the big buts though. That's why T2 snake into T3 Rishkar is so strong. A 4/5 and 4/4 block for days, even with the "can't block" triggers of mono red.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I think Adventurous Impulse looks like a solid card. I just don't think it's a card I want to see many of if my deck is doing it's thing so maybe 1 or 2 in an aggresively built midrange deck? I don't know. I just haven't been up for testing much Standard. That said, I seriously doubt it replaces Glint-Sleeve Siphoner in any fashion, but I'm not exactly sure how you mean this.
Short version, it needs work.
The matches I played were against the new UW control (tough game but loss), UB discard scarab brew thing (scoop) and against BR aggro (win).
I had plenty of forests and thus green mana. Never had I enter a land tapped (except for topdecked fastland) but I could live with some more colour, so I swapped two forests for a swamp and a plains. This also helpes with settle blowouts or Field of Ruin to help us fix. It didn't seem to matter much,
The fixing early and the filtering late from Adventurous Impulse is great and I'll be on four copies for now!
Shalai, Voice of Plenty is just bonkers when she landed and the activation is not at all hard to use when the game goes a little longer.
I kind of miss my maindeck Blossoming Defense because after sideboard Shalai with Defense backup gets a million times stronger in the UW matchup.
I'll sure be testing more in the upcomming days, mainly tune numbers and try to adapt to these mew decks. Will certainly give Untamed Kavu a try since dodging Seal Away seems to be pretty important.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
No offense taken. I actually did put together a mono-green list after building the one I posted above. I think it looks pretty spicy given my meta.
Part of the reason I don't like Glint-sleeve siphoner is that Red has that one drop creature that can be sacrificed to deal one damage to any creature. Glint-sleeve just ended up dying a lot. I felt like I had to drop glint-sleeve in order to ensure I can always play a 2 drop on turn 2. With my list going more green, it seemed to gum up the works to have 8 2 drops that require black to cast. In my online goldfishing run throughs, the deck always had something to play thanks to the branchwalkers, Jadelight Rangers and Adventurous Impulse. What I mean to say is, this list doesn't have to rely on glint-sleeve so much because our hand is usually full of playable cards throughout the game. Also, I think gaining Steel leaf Champion is worth dropping glint-sleeve. I'm trying to consider the cards' effects on the deck as a whole.
Perhaps I neutered my last energy list too much by not playing Servant of the Conduit and Aether Hub. I did run into a problem of having my Bristling Hydra killed in response to the enter the battlefield trigger. I don't see how servant helps much with this though. Playing one of these out before hydra doesn't give you the 3 energy needed for a Hydra activation. The scenarios you're banking on are getting out a snake, having it survive on turn 3 after you play a servant to get the 3 energy needed. Or you have to play 2 servants before hydra comes out, or a servant plus a glint-sleeve siphoner and save all the energy for a hydra when it comes out. This means Servant can't help us ramp or color fix, and Glint-sleeve can't help us draw cards. The list posted on the last page of the thread played 24 lands with 4 of them being aether hub. The 24 lands seems really high, but maybe it makes sense with aether hub? Part of the problem I see with Hub is that if we are trying to save that energy for hydra, hub just becomes a colorless land that doesn't help us fix colors anymore.
Is the idea that keeping all the energy you receive prior to playing a Hydra worth the ability to save the hydra when it enters? That just seems to neuter all the other energy cards played in the list. Perhaps it's well worth it. I'm not an extremely competitive player by any means. Am I just misjudging how important getting that 3 energy is prior to playing out a Hydra? I also just like Merfolk Branchwalker much more than Servant of the conduit as a two drop. Am I over estimating Branchwalker's worthiness compared to Servants? Branwalker also died quite often to red's 1 pinger damage, servant wouldn't do that at least. Finally, I can't think of a better 4 drop than hydra, despite it's energy troubles. Am I overlooking a more playable 4 drop than Hydra?
About your Fatal Push comment (against RR.) Should I just fatal push whatever creature they play out on turn 1 or 2? I've been saving it until after I play a 2 drop usually. Then play another 2 drop turn 3 plus a push at that point. Maybe I've been playing this wrong though. I can see how if they are on the play it becomes more important to push early. Maybe I just need to learn to play better against them then worry about changing my list too much...
You gave me a lot to consider. I'll try and puzzle it out before my next FNM.
I tuned up the last list I posted to include Untamed Kavu. This guy feels pretty great in goldfish testing. His flexibility is super clutch. Between him and impulse, the deck curves out smooth with a 2 drop, 3 drop, 4 drop and possibly a 5 drop and a 6 drop in Walking ballista. Having 6 of these two drop creatures that scale up late game is going to shape up into a pretty big advantage I feel. Not only do you keep from running out of gas, the gas becomes jet-fuel later on! I'm not abandoning this green heavy idea yet, I think steel leaf has merit. This FNM will let me know.
4x Winding Constrictor
2x Glint-sleeve siphoner
3x merfolk branchwalker
3x Untamed Kavu
3x walking ballista
3x Steel leaf Champion
3x Jadelight ranger
1x Rishkar, Peema Renegade
4x Bristling Hydra
1x Blossoming defense
4x Adventurous Impulse
4x Fatal Push
1x Cast Down
2x Vraska's Contempt
land 22
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Woodland Cemetery
1x Foul Orchard
8x forest
5x swamp
I do agree with Glint-Sleeve Siphoner being very poor against mono Red. The body doesn't play defense well, and it's rare that I ever get to go offensive with it. I generally cut all of them after game 1. I also didn't like Jadelight Ranger that much against them. It basically has to get 2 counters to be of much use to me, and even then, it still only has 3 toughness without a Winding Constrictor.
As for Fatal Push, I kill everything as soon as I can. If I can get their first two turns of play killed and land a Thrashing Brontodon on turn 3, I'm happy. That buys you some time to stabilize assuming they don't have or draw the nuts. Steel Leaf Champion should be equivalent. The weird part about Fatal Push is that it tends to get worse in games 2 and 3. Most mono-Red decks don't stay low to the ground against midrange decks. So I generally dump them after game 1.
I think Untamed Kavu is solid for what you're looking for. The vigilance means you can safely get chip shots in without giving up defense, which is really important against them imo. They play too many haste creatures for us to ever assume we can "safely" attack. Trample seems like a nice touch. I am curious how often it will be relevant for you though.
The only other 2-CMC creature I can think of that's really good against them is Gifted Aetherborn, but I don't know how well that works with your mana base.
4 Winding Constrictor
4 Walking Ballista
3 Servant of the Conduit
4 Jadelight Ranger
2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
2 Thrashing Brontodon
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
3 Verdurous Gearhulk
4 Fatal Push
2 Aethersphere Harvester
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Vraska's Contempt
Lands (24)
4 Aether Hub
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Woodland Cemetery
7 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Duress
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Naturalize
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Treasure Map
1 Crushing Canopy
1 Doomfall
1 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
1 Vraska's Contempt
2 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Karn is really powerful and does just about everything this archetype really wants. Card advantage, board presence, resilience to creature removal, even fills a spot on the curve (4) that's been awkward throughout the archetype's history.
I dislike Servant of the Conduit and am looking for literally anything remotely playable that has more than 1 toughness. I've had Merfolk Branchwalker in here for the synergy between Rishkar and Explore, and I'm even considering playing 2x Treasure Map and a 3rd Harvester, banking on Harvester + Gearhulk being unbeatable for red and calling it a day.
I cut Siphoner because Ballista, Goblin Chainwhirler and Fanatical Firebrand are everywhere. This might be wrong, but I think it's actually fine since Karn generates card advantage and there's no free energy anymore to keep Siphoner humming anyway.
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I think splashing for a third color that isn't red is basically impossible to do smoothly with the available mana, and I also don't think red adds anything as a splash color. Abrade would be a nice pickup, but trying to play it early strains the mana, and you also don't need it anyway.
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I know Karn is expensive and availability is a concern, but I strongly urge y'all to at least print proxies of Karn to test with your buddies. He's really powerful and adds two different angles of attack that this shell doesn't have, and which it very much likes.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Cut // Ribbons and Unlicensed Disintegration kill our best stuff WITH value. and they have Abrades to spare for our very few Harvesters or to blank our exile removal targeting a Phoenix or Scrounger
Maybe this is the argument for bringing Blossoming Defense back up to 4 of maindeck.
our 1 toughness team(sadface Jadelight Ranger) might be on their way out with Chainwhirler. Llanowar Elves welcome to Standard lol
gonna have to think on this
I Agree with your comment on Karn, I don't think it is what the deck needs at all. We allready have Siphoner for CA and when left unchecked takes over the game. Also, I absolutely don't feel like throwing a great deal of money towards a deck that is going to rotate out in a few months and that's made virtually worthless from a financial standpoint, thanks to the chalanger decks.
I'll stick with straight GB or GBw for now and start brewing in the post rotation standard. I have a strong feeling I know in what direction i'm going with Dominaria.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Constrictor has been a mostly budget conscious list, as long as you're not tossing Torrential Gearhulk & Carnage Tyrant in it's super affordable especially with the challenger shell and the The Scarab Godfalling out of favor so you don't need all those Vraska's Contempt . You probably don't want to go 4 Ballistae now, what with their price rebound since March which brought them back to 20$/per.
Thrashing Brontodon is like 3$ now, watch out for that
a challenger 'Counter Surge' deck has almost ~75$ worth of cards in it when they were priced 30-40 bucks. But yeah all the cards rotate. you want the U/W deck if you want cards worth $ that don't all rotate you get to keep almost 25$ from 3 cards in that one.
4 Winding Constrictor
4 Walking Ballista
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Jadelight Ranger
2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
3 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
2 Lyra Dawnbringer
Spells (9)
3 Seal Away
2 Ixalan Binding
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
1 Ajani Unyielding
2 Gideon of the Trials
4 Aether Hub
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Scattered Groves
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Sunpetal Grove
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Thrashing Brontodon
1 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Lifecrafter’s Bestiary
2 Blossoming Defense
2 Prowling Serpopard
2 Settle the Wreckage
2 Urza’s Ruinous Blast
1 Ajani Unyielding
Some thoughts. One of my losses was to red, as usual Glint Sleeve looks bad in that match up so maybe the main deck needs more removal. I stomped control both times I played them, Shalai took over the game 1 and then serpopard plus bestiary/arguel buried them in card advantage in game 2’s.
Card thoughts. Maybe need a heroic intervention somewhere (don’t own any online currently). Maybe need more removal main, the Gideon’s felt so-so in this shell. Perhaps a couple Chupacabra’s instead. Servant is way better than Elves in 3 color, plus helps fuel Siphoner.
Siphoner is either amazing or a bad card depending on the matchup as it has always been. It’s upside in most outweighs the poor Game 1 vs red tho IMO. Best of luck snaking people.
Interesting list for sure! A couple of questions.
How has Ajani been performing for you? Why take this over (more) Vraska?
How has Seal Away been for you?
I can't really get along with it yet
How do you feel about Adventurous Impulse?
You run Isolated Chapel over Woodland Cemetery, Don't you think Lyra stretches the capabilities of the manabase?
The manabase is definately tricky, maybe i'll try Scatered Groves and drop Adventurous Impulse to make Seal Away work.
In my current list, the only white source is needed in the 4cmc slot (Shalai and Cast Out) the rest is GB.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Next iteration I’m going 2 Seal Away, 2 Cast our, 2 Binding. The games I lost were almost all due to mana issues and I think the cycling could be nice. I can often get my board bigger than the Opp, so just making land drops is often better than removal.
Probably some number of cemetery is correct. This started as an experiment to see if it had promise, so now that I’ve done well in leagues it’s time to refine.
Lyra often wasn’t needed to close the game, may move her to SB for anti aggro matches and run more early interaction instead. Or maybe just Brontodons.
Elf into Champion into Heart + crew + Ghalta... that's a pretty formidable board to have in play on turn three.
I don't know what all you would have to take out in order to make the stompy package fit, but the basic synergy between giant monsters and Ghalta seems legit.
the problem with mono G is they are weak to any other decks in current meta except mono R.
most player are already splashing B for scrapheap scrounger duress and vraska's contempt to support control and midrange matchup.