Crappy deal. Nights like that are always disappointing.
What did you play against?
Aside from not drawing Scarab God (BTW can I be your friend's friend too??), can you report on any other cards as being standouts or duds? Sad but true the losses tend to offer more insights than the wins...
I made a long detailed reply, but I miss clicked a button and lost the reply... so I'll just keep it short.
Not a whole lot to learn really. It was such an off night that I don't think there's a lot to take away from it. It literally couldn't have gone any worse hehe (maybe if I also got a parking ticket) Everything the entire evening was just off.
Played against Temur match 1, had to sit 2nd match over because we were an uneven number, 3rd match was pseudo mardu vehicles and 4th match was pseudo temur without blue. Got annihilated in all matches.
Biggest thing to take away was this deck is very vulnerable against flying, but I think everybody's figured that out by now hehe.
Anybody see the deck spotlight at the pro tour for a sultai energy deck with the Electro Static Pummeler combo? It look really fun, but I can't find the list anywhere yet.
Only thing was it looked like he didn't use any removal at all in the main deck.
Sorry this won't look great, but I'm not sure how to make the deck list look pretty. This is what I've been playing for the last several weeks. I took a very slightly (one or two cards) to a PPTQ and went 3-2-1 one it. Feedback is great.
Sorry this won't look great, but I'm not sure how to make the deck list look pretty. This is what I've been playing for the last several weeks. I took a very slightly (one or two cards) to a PPTQ and went 3-2-1 one it. Feedback is great.
Sorry I don't know how to make the decklist layout. I'm probably going to tool around with the deck tomorrow but I'd appreciate any thoughts.
Welcome!
Three ways to pretty deck listings:
Put "deck" before and "/deck" after, only replace the double quotes with square brackets
"Quote" somebody else's post with a decklist and see for yourself. Since I fixed it in this one, you could just "Quote" this to see
Mouse over the widgets at the top of the editor and try the one labelled "Deck"
The deck looks generally pretty good to me.
You seemed light on U sources for Confiscation Coup. Botanical Sanctums are great, except for the recent price increases. You could cut back on B sources to make room. As a budget option, Evolving Wilds can help your Fatal Pushes. There is also an always come into play tapped dual also.
With two Cartouches, I would want more Bristling Hydra. I could see Hydra over Wonder and/or a land, as you are at 23 + 3 Attune.
The Scarab God is a messed up card. Hella expensive, but if you can get hold of at least one, the experience could be worth.
Thanks for the input. I've never had a problem hitting double blue, with 10 sources plus 3 attune. But I plan on cutting down to 22 lands. To address some points:
1. No scarab god for me. I tried him during the PPTQ, and so far Gonti has performed better.
2. The decks I bring the cartouche in against I'd rather curve 2 drop into cartouche for quick life gain. Waiting on hydra is usually too late. As for cutting a hydra, Multiform is a hedge against red based decks and performed.....wonderfully.
Seth Manfield got in the Ixalan Pro Tour top 8 with a Sultai Energy deck. Some pretty interesting sideboarding. I was talking to some of the other guys last time I played in a store and said I really liked having the Amonkhet Nissa in my Temur deck's sideboard and they all went "nah she sucks, why would you want that" and now the top 8 Sultai deck has two of her in the sideboard and a lot of the other temur decks used her too, hehe.
I'm so glad to see he's using Die Young. The two cards, Live fast and Die Young have some of my favourite artwork. I really hope they film him in the feature match area today so we can get a look at how he plays against Temur. That's really the one I've been wanting to see the most this pro tour.
well sultai won the pro tour. we have a target on our heads now lol
i have a pptq this weekend (my first time doing one) and was thinking of trying this list. saw it on mtggoldfish and dunno how you guys feel about it? or should i just run manfield's deck straight copy?
i've been playing snakeless sultai lately but i feel snake is much better situated. thoughts? any help would be great in what direction to take. i want to do really well with this pptq.
Personally I don't see the point of playing Sultai without Winding Constrictor, as it makes almost everything else better. I'll also go on the record as disagreeing with zero Bristling Hydra (but I've never won a PT either, so...)
As far as your list goes, my only other suggestion would be to try and find room for a couple more Blossoming Defense. It can be such a blowout in a lot of different ways, and really changes the way your opponents play to hedge against it.
I also see you've gone away from playing Rogue Refiner. How has that worked for you in testing? It's been forever that I've seen an energy list without one that I just assumed it was there until I reread your list a second time! Do you find that Glint-Sleeve on its own offers sufficient draw power?
Also curious how consistent the mana is to get up to playing your 4/5/6-drops. Your list looks a little more top heavy than others. Is the extra mana from Rishkar-powered +1/+1 counters enough to get there? (I've been off the Rishkar plan for a while so I genuinely don't know!)
As much as I love this deck, I feel like it's very medium and am surprised it won.especially compared to decks like Temur and 4 color energy. Props for the pilot for being able to take it all the way.
As much as I love this deck, I feel like it's very medium and am surprised it won.especially compared to decks like Temur and 4 color energy. Props for the pilot for being able to take it all the way.
Yeah, it always seems like the underdog going up against Temur and some other decks. I wish Seth had played against some temur on screen so we could have seen how he beat it and how he sideboarded stuff.
I just hope everybody won't jump on sultai now hehe. I went back to the constrictor deck because I didn't want to be on the band wagon, so I hope it doesn't turn into one now hehe. But I'm glad to see it won.
Personally I don't see the point of playing Sultai without Winding Constrictor, as it makes almost everything else better. I'll also go on the record as disagreeing with zero Bristling Hydra (but I've never won a PT either, so...)
As far as your list goes, my only other suggestion would be to try and find room for a couple more Blossoming Defense. It can be such a blowout in a lot of different ways, and really changes the way your opponents play to hedge against it.
I also see you've gone away from playing Rogue Refiner. How has that worked for you in testing? It's been forever that I've seen an energy list without one that I just assumed it was there until I reread your list a second time! Do you find that Glint-Sleeve on its own offers sufficient draw power?
Also curious how consistent the mana is to get up to playing your 4/5/6-drops. Your list looks a little more top heavy than others. Is the extra mana from Rishkar-powered +1/+1 counters enough to get there? (I've been off the Rishkar plan for a while so I genuinely don't know!)
So from what I'm reading online and what I've seen playing, Refiner is just a mediocre card that doesn't draw an answer to it. I've seen a few 5-0 lists on mtgo and a few first place pptq wins with lists very similar that did not run any refiners. They all were saying something similar to this (quote from a guy's pptq victory about his list):
Rogue Refiner is more of a value card and not very aggressive. The list I ran was very tight and Rogue Refiner is not that good at attacking. Playing a Rishkar t3 to ramp you and to pump your t2 is just better (even so, when it is a Winding Constrictor). Especially against Decks like GPG or Tokens Rogue Refiner is not impressive. It prolongs the game and that’s what they are trying to do, to get their engine going. When he attacks he just trades with nearly everything, leaving nothing on your board. Against RR he dies to shock and every other removal. Giving them a big tempo advantage. You get the card into your hand, but in most games I’m dead before I can even deploy all my stuff.
So I really feel that it is not a card that is needed. Granted, it draws a card which is very good but it just doesn't seem needed. I was watching the PT finals last night and refiner really didn't add anything to the board. What good attack could it make? I just feel that the extra card and energy isn't really worth a spot in the 3 drop. I may be wrong about the whole thing but like I said, there have been a few 5-0 results that did not run rogue refiner.
Blossoming defense - I'm really looking to see how to add 1 or 2 more to the deck but I really dunno. I honestly feel like taking Manfield's deck and playing around with it. I feel on my list, main deck negate is huge against so many decks. Could possibly be a blow out if the opponent isn't considering it. 2 mana open on their turn 4/5 to stop a fumigate/settle is huge. Stopping GFG with it early on is great. Stopping Coup. There are a lot of uses for it that I feel it deserves a spot.
Mana...I'm honestly not too sure. It seems to be fine with me running 21 lands. The list depends on your 2 drops so much that getting to 4-5-6 mana seems doable as the game progresses.
But like I said, I'm really not sure if this is the list I want. I should probably decide pretty damn quick though. I personally like it but I also like Manfield's list but feel that it's going to be hated on a lot. Honestly thinking of switching back to Sultai Red. I had a lot of success with that.
[quote from="TechnoWriter »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/782517-gbx-snek?comment=164"]
But like I said, I'm really not sure if this is the list I want. I should probably decide pretty damn quick though. I personally like it but I also like Manfield's list but feel that it's going to be hated on a lot. Honestly thinking of switching back to Sultai Red. I had a lot of success with that.
I don't really think Manfield's list is going to get a lot of hate other than some jelly people hating that he won and the typical energy moaners. It'll get some hate, but not much compared to Temur haters.
I think RR is a filler for now. It's not as bad as most people think.
Pros:
Evades a non-revolted Fatal Push.
Draws a card & gets 2 energy.
Chump blocker.
Cons:
Dies to all red removal spells
Weak body
Possible replacements:
Greenbelt Rampager
Deathgourge Scavenger
Shielded Aether Thief
Champion of Wits
Or even Bristling Hydra
I am testing this pack since a couple of days, and I wonder if Scrapheap Scrounger is better than Deathgorge Scavenger SB, for 2 reasons : UB control and ramunap.
Cartouche is good later in the game but early is just setting you up for a 2-1. Never would I play this early in a game vs red. UB control:
You get some recursive crea which can come back after essence scatter attack and empty your graveyard.
that seems good when The Scarab God is in
Ramunap
the second reason is that Deathgorge Scavengeris not so good vs monored.
I prefer Cartouche of Ambitioncoz it kills a crea, weaks hazoret the fervent , and seems fantastic on walking ballista, or any other creat with 3 basis thougness
by playing this deck, I got feeling the challenge is to deal with f*****g glorybringer , coz don't have any removal, or maybe just 2 Vraska's ContemptSB...
but the more I play this deck, the more I think you don't really have bad matchup, but don't have good either.. all are close and that's the reason why your side tech should be perfect.
While the scrounged is good vs UB control, the scavenger is good too. Hits all split targets, vizer, champion of witts, and all gearhulk targets.
Vs rumunap, the scavenger is one of the best cards atm. I’m not sure what could possibly lead you to thinking it’s not good. Gains life, can block great, and can get in for dmg afterwards. Wayyyyyy better than scrapheap. Heap can’t block, it’s worthless vs red.
I think RR is a filler for now. It's not as bad as most people think.
Pros:
Evades a non-revolted Fatal Push.
Draws a card & gets 2 energy.
Chump blocker.
Cons:
Dies to all red removal spells
Weak body
Possible replacements:
Greenbelt Rampager
Deathgourge Scavenger
Shielded Aether Thief
Champion of Wits
Or even Bristling Hydra
What do you guys think?
Well, I'm already running Hydras, so my answer is to keep Refiner in as well because my list has that additional energy hunger that non-Hydra lists don't have. I also disagree that it's weak. It's not meant to be an aggressive card, it's a utility role player. 3 power for 3 is on-curve, and it both feeds our hand and our energy plan. If it eats removal that's one less we have to worry about for our beaters. And if it's a chump/trade, hey there's some life saved. I can't see how that's bad.
All that said... If you're not running Hydra, meaning your energy is only needed for Cub and Siphoner, I could see Deathgorge as a partial alternative (I wouldn't run 4), but that's only if (IMO) your meta is skewed to Ram Red and/or GPG. Otherwise you just bought the same size body that didn't replace itself or up your energy count.
Champion of Wits doesn't feel better than Refiner, especially given we have basically no graveyard synergies to exploit with its discard. Shielded Aether Thief is not where Sultai wants to be; it's way too defensive. I haven't seen Greenbelt played in months, and that was a one-time deal, so I'm just gonna assume it's not worth it (but if I'm wrong about that please correct that assumption!).
I really like Nissa, Steward of Elements, especially as I play her more. If she comes down as a 3-drop there's a lot of long term value coming from her, and late-game she can just win from nowhere. However she is not an aggressive play, so if that's what you're looking for in this slot then it's back to the drawing board.
Finally, from the "out-of-left-field" department... Skyship Plunderer. Comes down a turn sooner, gives us some evasion & shores up the weakness to flyers, and plays nicely with the +1 counters and energy plans. No card draw tho. Same cons as noted for Refiner, plus eats Fatal Push all day, but unchecked it has the potential to do a lot of good things. Turn 2 Plunderer into turn 3 Rishkar seems OK.
Rogue Refiner as a cantrip should not be undervalued. The energy is also quite important, but even if the energy wasn't there, we have a barely-below-rate P/T for CMC creature that replaces itself. Each creature fills a role in the deck, and Siphoner and Refiner are the card draw. Being able to hit your land drops because you're seeing extra cards is huge, as is drawing into answers or more threats. Two Refiners represent a freeDivination on top of the bodies and energy. People began splashing blue because of Refiner, and since then, all the other benefits have been found (Scarab God, Negate, Hostage Taker, etc). Is he strong? Not particularly. But he fills in the 3-drop slot nicely and provides a lot of value. You might go down on the numbers if you need flex slot (-1, but I'd be reluctant to go less than 3 Refiners), but I wouldn't consider dropping them altogether.
I started this format with a build that had Refiner, but no Siphoner. I believe that was wrong. We are a synergy deck without card draw like Glimmer of Genius. We need our creatures to get us ahead on cards. Rogue Refiner and Glint-Sleeve Siphoner do that. Think about going 1/1 with a control deck and just falling behind when they Glimmer. Without card advantage, we are not winning that game. I'm not leaving home without 4 each of Refiner/Siphoner. With an extra card, we can have Constrictor with a synergistic card that wins us the game.
Of cos no one is right or wrong. Is RR a flexi slot? Not too sure. If we wanted to go aggro, Rampager is something we should really look at but Sultai is currently a midrange deck and RR helps in that sense.
Maybe the new set will bring something better? I personally think that we can play with the numbers of RR, WB and HT in the list. For example, i play 2x HT and 1x BH. Seeing Seth playing with 3 WB, i'm quite interested to add in a 2nd Hydra.
Shapers sanctuary for the mirror? Kinda shuts down walking ballista, hostage taker and such. I still don't have botanical sanctums so I've been running 2mb and it puts in work. Ripjaw raptor too
I recall Shapers' Sanctuary being discussed a couple pages aka weeks ago, and the thought at that point is that it's a pretty awful play anytime after turn 1 due to tempo loss. But since we seem to be in a state of reevaluating a bunch of things, it could be worthy of a new conversation, especially if this flavour of energy gets a larger target on its head now. I haven't played Sanctuary myself so I'll defer to those who have used it
Speaking of reevaluating things, let's talk about the other notable absence from Seth Manfield's list (the first IMO being Bristling Hydra), which is zero copies of Verdurous Gearhulks in his 75. I still run a pair, and the recent lists you guys have posted seem to keep including it as well. I'd love to see some discussion on this guy.
Could also use a Sorcerous Spyglass against mirror and other energy decks to take care of ballistas, glint sleeve siphoners and hydras. I feel like Sorcerous Spyglass is a very overlooked card. (I really like it, but mostly because the artwork looks exactly like my gf lol)
It's a real hate card. Could also use it against long tusk cubs and stuff like that.
What do you think Seth Manfield swapped out against Temur? 3 Ballsitas and 2 Rishkar for 1 essence scatter, 2 nissa and 2 Die young?
I'm going to try and bring a copy of Seth's deck, but instead of 2 nissa bring 1 nissa and 1 Vraska. And instead of a second scarab god in the sideboard (I only have one and don't want to spend so much money for a second) I'd like Yahenni's expertise against ramunap or mardu. Sorcerous Spyglass does seem awfully tempting to take care of hydras though... May swap the expertise out for that one actually.
I recall Shapers' Sanctuary being discussed a couple pages aka weeks ago, and the thought at that point is that it's a pretty awful play anytime after turn 1 due to tempo loss. But since we seem to be in a state of reevaluating a bunch of things, it could be worthy of a new conversation, especially if this flavour of energy gets a larger target on its head now. I haven't played Sanctuary myself so I'll defer to those who have used it
Speaking of reevaluating things, let's talk about the other notable absence from Seth Manfield's list (the first IMO being Bristling Hydra), which is zero copies of Verdurous Gearhulks in his 75. I still run a pair, and the recent lists you guys have posted seem to keep including it as well. I'd love to see some discussion on this guy.
I like verdurous gearhulk. He's not better than a second copy of the scarab god however. If you have 2 the scarab god, run those, if not, fill in the gap with verdurous gearhulk. I'm really curious why we don't see more decks playing 2 copies of the Scarab God mb. It's good in all of the major matchups. I feel substituting a 22nd land for the 4th attune helps when playing 6: 4cmc cards and 3: 5cmc cards. I also like Drowned Catacomb over Fetid Pools. We want those lands to come into play untapped turns 4/5 so we can keep playing creatures on curve.
The reasoning behind a higher cmc is that most decks will lose if I can stick a Hydra, gearhulk, Rhonas or scarab god. More high cmc creautes can turn on Rhonas easily. Gearhulk can break board stalls in the mirror matchup and Temur energy. I do wonder sometimes if my gearhulk should be a liliana, death's majesty or Nissa, Vital force or even the new Vraska walker. A copy of gearhulk instead of a 3rd the scarab god can make our god larger than an opponent's god allowing us to attack more profitably.
A higher cmc deck is probably more vulnerable to Ramunap Red than faster decks. In my small amount of playing my meta, RR opponents aren't the best players/there aren't that many of them, so playing a slower deck is fine. I have added a copy of Die Young and blossoming defense mb, which should help against ramunap though. I've been playing 2 copies of Walking ballista for a while due to lacking other copies. However, I have not missed having more than 2 copies of this card and don't feel the need to find a place for them right now. Going from 4 to 2 ballista opens up those slots for hulk and a second the scarab god.
I recall Shapers' Sanctuary being discussed a couple pages aka weeks ago, and the thought at that point is that it's a pretty awful play anytime after turn 1 due to tempo loss. But since we seem to be in a state of reevaluating a bunch of things, it could be worthy of a new conversation, especially if this flavour of energy gets a larger target on its head now. I haven't played Sanctuary myself so I'll defer to those who have used it
Speaking of reevaluating things, let's talk about the other notable absence from Seth Manfield's list (the first IMO being Bristling Hydra), which is zero copies of Verdurous Gearhulks in his 75. I still run a pair, and the recent lists you guys have posted seem to keep including it as well. I'd love to see some discussion on this guy.
I like verdurous gearhulk. He's not better than a second copy of the scarab god however. If you have 2 the scarab god, run those, if not, fill in the gap with verdurous gearhulk. I'm really curious why we don't see more decks playing 2 copies of the Scarab God mb. It's good in all of the major matchups. I feel substituting a 22nd land for the 4th attune helps when playing 6: 4cmc cards and 3: 5cmc cards. I also like Drowned Catacomb over Fetid Pools. We want those lands to come into play untapped turns 4/5 so we can keep playing creatures on curve.
The reasoning behind a higher cmc is that most decks will lose if I can stick a Hydra, gearhulk, Rhonas or scarab god. More high cmc creautes can turn on Rhonas easily. Gearhulk can break board stalls in the mirror matchup and Temur energy. I do wonder sometimes if my gearhulk should be a liliana, death's majesty or Nissa, Vital force or even the new Vraska walker. A copy of gearhulk instead of a 3rd the scarab god can make our god larger than an opponent's god allowing us to attack more profitably.
A higher cmc deck is probably more vulnerable to Ramunap Red than faster decks. In my small amount of playing my meta, RR opponents aren't the best players/there aren't that many of them, so playing a slower deck is fine. I have added a copy of Die Young and blossoming defense mb, which should help against ramunap though. I've been playing 2 copies of Walking ballista for a while due to lacking other copies. However, I have not missed having more than 2 copies of this card and don't feel the need to find a place for them right now. Going from 4 to 2 ballista opens up those slots for hulk and a second the scarab god.
I think a lot of people are only running one Scarab God because he's so damn expensive hehe. I was on the verge of buying a couple copies back when he was just released and only cost €6.... regret it sorely now hehe.
Lands like Drowned Catacombs and Roobound Crag are amazing (what do you call that type of dual land?) I can see why fetid pools would be nice because of the cycle ability. I think it's something you have to test out and see which one you prefer, because both are good in their own way.
...
I think a lot of people are only running one Scarab God because he's so damn expensive hehe. I was on the verge of buying a couple copies back when he was just released and only cost €6.... regret it sorely now hehe.
Lands like Drowned Catacombs and Roobound Crag are amazing (what do you call that type of dual land?) I can see why fetid pools would be nice because of the cycle ability. I think it's something you have to test out and see which one you prefer, because both are good in their own way.
Sure, but I'm guessing money isn't the reason for Seth having only one The Scarab God main, particularly since he had a second in the side. I'm guessing it is due to curve considerations. In addition, with Blossoming Defense, they can survive better.
With a higher curve, adding a land makes sense. but cutting an attune for a land just seems like making the fixing and energy production worse.
I've been liking 21 lands /4 Attunes. That seems to be a sweet spot. I'm not sure if I would want to add an extra land unless I start adding more 5/6 drops.
I'm also on the Fetid Pools plan (I only run 1) but I can't say that going with Drowned Catacombs instead is incorrect. I like the upside of cycling slightly more than the downside of coming in tapped. Especially as it's only a singleton there is less risk of slowing the curve down. If I were to up my land count I don't know which dual I would add, but either one would not be at the expense of an Attune.
In my experience (grain of salt and all that), the core cards for Sultai seem to be:
4 Attune
3-4 Push
2-4 Blossoming Defense
4 Cub
4 Constrictor
4 Refiner
4 Siphoner
1-2 Scarab God
(as much as I want to put Hydra here I can't simply due to PT results)
With 21 lands, this gives us a core of @ 47-50 cards. Plenty of room to customize with the last dozen or so slots.
Thoughts?
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I made a long detailed reply, but I miss clicked a button and lost the reply... so I'll just keep it short.
Not a whole lot to learn really. It was such an off night that I don't think there's a lot to take away from it. It literally couldn't have gone any worse hehe (maybe if I also got a parking ticket) Everything the entire evening was just off.
Played against Temur match 1, had to sit 2nd match over because we were an uneven number, 3rd match was pseudo mardu vehicles and 4th match was pseudo temur without blue. Got annihilated in all matches.
Biggest thing to take away was this deck is very vulnerable against flying, but I think everybody's figured that out by now hehe.
Only thing was it looked like he didn't use any removal at all in the main deck.
Main deck:
4x Longtusk Cub
4x Winding Constrictor
2x Rishkar, Peema Renegade
4x Rogue Refiner
1x Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2x Bristling Hydra
4x Walking Ballista
3x Attune with Aether
4x Blossoming Defense
1x Confiscation Coup
4x Aether Hub
4x Blooming Marsh
1x Fetid Pools
4x Drowned Catacombs
1x Island
5x Swamp
4x Forest
Sideboard:
2x Deathgorge Scavenger
1x Multiform Wonder
3x Negate
1x Confiscation Coup
2x Duress
1x Vraska's Contempt
2x Cartouche of Ambition
2x Appetite for the Unnatural
Sorry I don't know how to make the decklist layout. I'm probably going to tool around with the deck tomorrow but I'd appreciate any thoughts.
Three ways to pretty deck listings:
The deck looks generally pretty good to me.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
1. No scarab god for me. I tried him during the PPTQ, and so far Gonti has performed better.
2. The decks I bring the cartouche in against I'd rather curve 2 drop into cartouche for quick life gain. Waiting on hydra is usually too late. As for cutting a hydra, Multiform is a hedge against red based decks and performed.....wonderfully.
Here's a link to the top 8 lists including Seth's Sultai deck.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptxln/top-8-decklists-2017-11-04
I'm so glad to see he's using Die Young. The two cards, Live fast and Die Young have some of my favourite artwork. I really hope they film him in the feature match area today so we can get a look at how he plays against Temur. That's really the one I've been wanting to see the most this pro tour.
i have a pptq this weekend (my first time doing one) and was thinking of trying this list. saw it on mtggoldfish and dunno how you guys feel about it? or should i just run manfield's deck straight copy?
4x Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
2x Hostage Taker
4x Longtusk Cub
3x Rishkar, Peema Renegade
3x The Scarab God
2x Verdurous Gearhulk
3x Walking Ballista
4x Winding Constrictor
4x Attune with Aether
4x Aether Hub
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Botanical Sanctum
2x Fetid Pools
4x Forest
1x Island
2x Swamp
4x Fatal Push
2x Negate
2x Vraska's Contempt
1x Vraska, Relic Seeker
2x Aethersphere Harvester
2x Appetite for the Unnatural
2x Deathgorge Scavenger
4x Duress
2x Negate
1x Nissa, Steward of Elements
1x Spell Pierce
1x Vraska, Relic Seeker
i've been playing snakeless sultai lately but i feel snake is much better situated. thoughts? any help would be great in what direction to take. i want to do really well with this pptq.
As far as your list goes, my only other suggestion would be to try and find room for a couple more Blossoming Defense. It can be such a blowout in a lot of different ways, and really changes the way your opponents play to hedge against it.
I also see you've gone away from playing Rogue Refiner. How has that worked for you in testing? It's been forever that I've seen an energy list without one that I just assumed it was there until I reread your list a second time! Do you find that Glint-Sleeve on its own offers sufficient draw power?
Also curious how consistent the mana is to get up to playing your 4/5/6-drops. Your list looks a little more top heavy than others. Is the extra mana from Rishkar-powered +1/+1 counters enough to get there? (I've been off the Rishkar plan for a while so I genuinely don't know!)
Yeah, it always seems like the underdog going up against Temur and some other decks. I wish Seth had played against some temur on screen so we could have seen how he beat it and how he sideboarded stuff.
I just hope everybody won't jump on sultai now hehe. I went back to the constrictor deck because I didn't want to be on the band wagon, so I hope it doesn't turn into one now hehe. But I'm glad to see it won.
So from what I'm reading online and what I've seen playing, Refiner is just a mediocre card that doesn't draw an answer to it. I've seen a few 5-0 lists on mtgo and a few first place pptq wins with lists very similar that did not run any refiners. They all were saying something similar to this (quote from a guy's pptq victory about his list):
Rogue Refiner is more of a value card and not very aggressive. The list I ran was very tight and Rogue Refiner is not that good at attacking. Playing a Rishkar t3 to ramp you and to pump your t2 is just better (even so, when it is a Winding Constrictor). Especially against Decks like GPG or Tokens Rogue Refiner is not impressive. It prolongs the game and that’s what they are trying to do, to get their engine going. When he attacks he just trades with nearly everything, leaving nothing on your board. Against RR he dies to shock and every other removal. Giving them a big tempo advantage. You get the card into your hand, but in most games I’m dead before I can even deploy all my stuff.
So I really feel that it is not a card that is needed. Granted, it draws a card which is very good but it just doesn't seem needed. I was watching the PT finals last night and refiner really didn't add anything to the board. What good attack could it make? I just feel that the extra card and energy isn't really worth a spot in the 3 drop. I may be wrong about the whole thing but like I said, there have been a few 5-0 results that did not run rogue refiner.
Blossoming defense - I'm really looking to see how to add 1 or 2 more to the deck but I really dunno. I honestly feel like taking Manfield's deck and playing around with it. I feel on my list, main deck negate is huge against so many decks. Could possibly be a blow out if the opponent isn't considering it. 2 mana open on their turn 4/5 to stop a fumigate/settle is huge. Stopping GFG with it early on is great. Stopping Coup. There are a lot of uses for it that I feel it deserves a spot.
Mana...I'm honestly not too sure. It seems to be fine with me running 21 lands. The list depends on your 2 drops so much that getting to 4-5-6 mana seems doable as the game progresses.
But like I said, I'm really not sure if this is the list I want. I should probably decide pretty damn quick though. I personally like it but I also like Manfield's list but feel that it's going to be hated on a lot. Honestly thinking of switching back to Sultai Red. I had a lot of success with that.
I don't really think Manfield's list is going to get a lot of hate other than some jelly people hating that he won and the typical energy moaners. It'll get some hate, but not much compared to Temur haters.
Pros:
Evades a non-revolted Fatal Push.
Draws a card & gets 2 energy.
Chump blocker.
Cons:
Dies to all red removal spells
Weak body
Possible replacements:
Greenbelt Rampager
Deathgourge Scavenger
Shielded Aether Thief
Champion of Wits
Or even Bristling Hydra
What do you guys think?
While the scrounged is good vs UB control, the scavenger is good too. Hits all split targets, vizer, champion of witts, and all gearhulk targets.
Vs rumunap, the scavenger is one of the best cards atm. I’m not sure what could possibly lead you to thinking it’s not good. Gains life, can block great, and can get in for dmg afterwards. Wayyyyyy better than scrapheap. Heap can’t block, it’s worthless vs red.
Well, I'm already running Hydras, so my answer is to keep Refiner in as well because my list has that additional energy hunger that non-Hydra lists don't have. I also disagree that it's weak. It's not meant to be an aggressive card, it's a utility role player. 3 power for 3 is on-curve, and it both feeds our hand and our energy plan. If it eats removal that's one less we have to worry about for our beaters. And if it's a chump/trade, hey there's some life saved. I can't see how that's bad.
All that said... If you're not running Hydra, meaning your energy is only needed for Cub and Siphoner, I could see Deathgorge as a partial alternative (I wouldn't run 4), but that's only if (IMO) your meta is skewed to Ram Red and/or GPG. Otherwise you just bought the same size body that didn't replace itself or up your energy count.
Champion of Wits doesn't feel better than Refiner, especially given we have basically no graveyard synergies to exploit with its discard. Shielded Aether Thief is not where Sultai wants to be; it's way too defensive. I haven't seen Greenbelt played in months, and that was a one-time deal, so I'm just gonna assume it's not worth it (but if I'm wrong about that please correct that assumption!).
I really like Nissa, Steward of Elements, especially as I play her more. If she comes down as a 3-drop there's a lot of long term value coming from her, and late-game she can just win from nowhere. However she is not an aggressive play, so if that's what you're looking for in this slot then it's back to the drawing board.
Finally, from the "out-of-left-field" department... Skyship Plunderer. Comes down a turn sooner, gives us some evasion & shores up the weakness to flyers, and plays nicely with the +1 counters and energy plans. No card draw tho. Same cons as noted for Refiner, plus eats Fatal Push all day, but unchecked it has the potential to do a lot of good things. Turn 2 Plunderer into turn 3 Rishkar seems OK.
I started this format with a build that had Refiner, but no Siphoner. I believe that was wrong. We are a synergy deck without card draw like Glimmer of Genius. We need our creatures to get us ahead on cards. Rogue Refiner and Glint-Sleeve Siphoner do that. Think about going 1/1 with a control deck and just falling behind when they Glimmer. Without card advantage, we are not winning that game. I'm not leaving home without 4 each of Refiner/Siphoner. With an extra card, we can have Constrictor with a synergistic card that wins us the game.
Am I wrong?
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Maybe the new set will bring something better? I personally think that we can play with the numbers of RR, WB and HT in the list. For example, i play 2x HT and 1x BH. Seeing Seth playing with 3 WB, i'm quite interested to add in a 2nd Hydra.
Speaking of reevaluating things, let's talk about the other notable absence from Seth Manfield's list (the first IMO being Bristling Hydra), which is zero copies of Verdurous Gearhulks in his 75. I still run a pair, and the recent lists you guys have posted seem to keep including it as well. I'd love to see some discussion on this guy.
It's a real hate card. Could also use it against long tusk cubs and stuff like that.
What do you think Seth Manfield swapped out against Temur? 3 Ballsitas and 2 Rishkar for 1 essence scatter, 2 nissa and 2 Die young?
I'm going to try and bring a copy of Seth's deck, but instead of 2 nissa bring 1 nissa and 1 Vraska. And instead of a second scarab god in the sideboard (I only have one and don't want to spend so much money for a second) I'd like Yahenni's expertise against ramunap or mardu. Sorcerous Spyglass does seem awfully tempting to take care of hydras though... May swap the expertise out for that one actually.
I like verdurous gearhulk. He's not better than a second copy of the scarab god however. If you have 2 the scarab god, run those, if not, fill in the gap with verdurous gearhulk. I'm really curious why we don't see more decks playing 2 copies of the Scarab God mb. It's good in all of the major matchups. I feel substituting a 22nd land for the 4th attune helps when playing 6: 4cmc cards and 3: 5cmc cards. I also like Drowned Catacomb over Fetid Pools. We want those lands to come into play untapped turns 4/5 so we can keep playing creatures on curve.
4x Glint-sleeve Siphoner
4x Longtusk Cub
2x Walking ballista
4x Rogue Refiner
1x Rishkar, Peema renegade
1x Rhonas, the indomitable
4x Bristling Hydra
1x Verdurous gearhulk
2x The Scarab God
3x Attune with Aether
4x Fatal Push
1x Die Young
1x Blossoming defense
2x Vraska's Contempt
land 22
4x Aether Hub
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Botanical Sanctum
1x foul orchard
3x Drowned Catacomb
3x forest
2x swamp
1x Island
The reasoning behind a higher cmc is that most decks will lose if I can stick a Hydra, gearhulk, Rhonas or scarab god. More high cmc creautes can turn on Rhonas easily. Gearhulk can break board stalls in the mirror matchup and Temur energy. I do wonder sometimes if my gearhulk should be a liliana, death's majesty or Nissa, Vital force or even the new Vraska walker. A copy of gearhulk instead of a 3rd the scarab god can make our god larger than an opponent's god allowing us to attack more profitably.
A higher cmc deck is probably more vulnerable to Ramunap Red than faster decks. In my small amount of playing my meta, RR opponents aren't the best players/there aren't that many of them, so playing a slower deck is fine. I have added a copy of Die Young and blossoming defense mb, which should help against ramunap though. I've been playing 2 copies of Walking ballista for a while due to lacking other copies. However, I have not missed having more than 2 copies of this card and don't feel the need to find a place for them right now. Going from 4 to 2 ballista opens up those slots for hulk and a second the scarab god.
I think a lot of people are only running one Scarab God because he's so damn expensive hehe. I was on the verge of buying a couple copies back when he was just released and only cost €6.... regret it sorely now hehe.
Lands like Drowned Catacombs and Roobound Crag are amazing (what do you call that type of dual land?) I can see why fetid pools would be nice because of the cycle ability. I think it's something you have to test out and see which one you prefer, because both are good in their own way.
With a higher curve, adding a land makes sense. but cutting an attune for a land just seems like making the fixing and energy production worse.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I'm also on the Fetid Pools plan (I only run 1) but I can't say that going with Drowned Catacombs instead is incorrect. I like the upside of cycling slightly more than the downside of coming in tapped. Especially as it's only a singleton there is less risk of slowing the curve down. If I were to up my land count I don't know which dual I would add, but either one would not be at the expense of an Attune.
In my experience (grain of salt and all that), the core cards for Sultai seem to be:
With 21 lands, this gives us a core of @ 47-50 cards. Plenty of room to customize with the last dozen or so slots.
Thoughts?