I do feel that 4 copies of Return and Abrade are necessary MD to help against Zombies and B/G based decks.
And Mono Red
I'm not sure that Hour of Devastation should be ran MD or not.
I keep reading about Hazoret in Mono Red and how HoD kills it. They run 4 of those so its definitely a card we have to answer so perhaps HoD can buy enough time until we get World Breaker out to block him.
Only testing will tell; though with the rise of Zombies (12 decks in the top 32 at the GP) that it might be needed since they can grow out of KR range (not as much if played out of the graveyard) so having a sweeper that can deal 3+ damage is nice. I know that Sweltering Suns can be used but I feel that having double RR buy turn 3 will be harder to pull off with only playing 4 sources of Rmana that don't come into play tapped if you are not playing Game Trail (which I've currently not).
What is your mana base? I am starting to think a split of 3 Rtn/Suns would be good to address those key 3 toughness creatures from Constrictor and zombies.
G/R is probably infamous for losing to itself most of the time by drawing the wrong part of your deck. I personally like U/G better because of glimmer of genius. G/R can play Oath of Nissa but with the list being so tight what should be cut?
This is the major part of the problem with Ramp currently. If you curve out then it is very hard to beat; but if you draw the wrong part of your deck at the wrong time; then things get more complicated. I'm currently not sure if U is better then R for the deck. U gives us access to card draw and counters; while R gives access to spot removal and sweepers.
I started with Oath in the MD to help smooth out some of the draw/opening hands; but as it was pointed out to me on Friday (I didn't play Ramp at FNM or Game Day) that it was a dead card in one of our hardest matchup's (Red Aggro) since it doesn't find an answer (i.e. sweeper except for Chandra). So I've removed them from the deck and replaced them with more removal. I've also go to running 4 Offshoots, 2 Druid's and a 3/3 split of Worldbreaker and Ullamog. I hope to get some testing in before this Friday and that might not happen due to RL getting in the way.
I do feel that 4 copies of Return and Abrade are necessary MD to help against Zombies and B/G based decks. I'm not sure that Hour of Devastation should be ran MD or not. Only testing will tell; though with the rise of Zombies (12 decks in the top 32 at the GP) that it might be needed since they can grow out of KR range (not as much if played out of the graveyard) so having a sweeper that can deal 3+ damage is nice. I know that Sweltering Suns can be used but I feel that having double RR buy turn 3 will be harder to pull off with only playing 4 sources of Rmana that don't come into play tapped if you are not playing Game Trail (which I've currently not).
What if we load up on mana dorks? 4 Druid of the Cowl + 4 Ulvenwald Captive to increase ramp consistency and maybe play more midrange card (chandra, Nissa vital force, glorybringer) instead of going all in. But if we go this route then we're probably just a bad temur energy deck....
Now that I think about it, walking ballista is probably better than jaddi offshoot. Its ability to trigger sanctum is invaluable.
its just a huge mana sink and can take over a game. Good against control too, direct damage, planewalkers.
I play 3, want to play 4, but I play grapple, maybe 3 is fine!?
I do feel that 4 copies of Return and Abrade are necessary MD to help against Zombies and B/G based decks.
And Mono Red
I'm not sure that Hour of Devastation should be ran MD or not.
I keep reading about Hazoret in Mono Red and how HoD kills it. They run 4 of those so its definitely a card we have to answer so perhaps HoD can buy enough time until we get World Breaker out to block him.
Only testing will tell; though with the rise of Zombies (12 decks in the top 32 at the GP) that it might be needed since they can grow out of KR range (not as much if played out of the graveyard) so having a sweeper that can deal 3+ damage is nice. I know that Sweltering Suns can be used but I feel that having double RR buy turn 3 will be harder to pull off with only playing 4 sources of Rmana that don't come into play tapped if you are not playing Game Trail (which I've currently not).
What is your mana base? I am starting to think a split of 3 Rtn/Suns would be good to address those key 3 toughness creatures from Constrictor and zombies.
I'm currently using the mana base that Todd posted in his SCG article. Though know that I've had a few days to think about it; I'll be making some changes to it for my meta. There are a few players at the store that are playing graveyard based decks (either Zombies or God-Pharaoh's Gift) and because of that I'll be adding in 2 to 3 Scavenger Grounds; which if I do; mean that I'll want to add 1 or 2 other deserts so that I'll have a way to interact with their graveyard multiple times if necessary. I'm just not fond of having to take damage from my own lands if I can help it. So I don't want to play too many; but we do need a way to interact with their graveyard. While the deck is not popular; it is still one that can win games if you are not prepared.
I'm just not sure how I would change it yet to add those lands into the deck.
Psy
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
I do feel that 4 copies of Return and Abrade are necessary MD to help against Zombies and B/G based decks.
And Mono Red
I'm not sure that Hour of Devastation should be ran MD or not.
I keep reading about Hazoret in Mono Red and how HoD kills it. They run 4 of those so its definitely a card we have to answer so perhaps HoD can buy enough time until we get World Breaker out to block him.
Only testing will tell; though with the rise of Zombies (12 decks in the top 32 at the GP) that it might be needed since they can grow out of KR range (not as much if played out of the graveyard) so having a sweeper that can deal 3+ damage is nice. I know that Sweltering Suns can be used but I feel that having double RR buy turn 3 will be harder to pull off with only playing 4 sources of Rmana that don't come into play tapped if you are not playing Game Trail (which I've currently not).
What is your mana base? I am starting to think a split of 3 Rtn/Suns would be good to address those key 3 toughness creatures from Constrictor and zombies.
I'm currently using the mana base that Todd posted in his SCG article. Though know that I've had a few days to think about it; I'll be making some changes to it for my meta. There are a few players at the store that are playing graveyard based decks (either Zombies or God-Pharaoh's Gift) and because of that I'll be adding in 2 to 3 Scavenger Grounds; which if I do; mean that I'll want to add 1 or 2 other deserts so that I'll have a way to interact with their graveyard multiple times if necessary. I'm just not fond of having to take damage from my own lands if I can help it. So I don't want to play too many; but we do need a way to interact with their graveyard. While the deck is not popular; it is still one that can win games if you are not prepared.
I'm just not sure how I would change it yet to add those lands into the deck.
Psy
I too am going to be adding a scavenger grounds after watching Gabriel Nassif play ramp in his channel Fireball video. I'm going to be taking out a hostile desert and putting in a Scavenging grounds and then I'll have seven deserts total for the deck. With four hour to promise and potentially any # of shefet monitors your access to Deserts should be increased that way you don't have to play more than two, which would be a waste in my opinion
Out of curiosity, as I play at a store with a somewhat control heavy meta, what has this iteration of ramp's matchup against UR and other control variants looked like? I know it was abysmal when control was always in black and hitting with infinite obliteration / hand disruption. Do we just go over the top now with the big Eldrazi, or is it still a tough MU?
I haven't lost to control. I run 3 TKS, 2 Reality Smasher, 3 Tireless tracker out of the board.
They'll counter a few spells.
But every threat is backbreaking.
Tracker has to die on arrival or he takes over the game.
TKS being a 4/4 means their removal lines up poorly. We get info to play around their hand and take one of their best spells.
Reality Smasher is the bane of all things control.
World Breaker starts blowing up their lands.
Ulamog is Ulamog.
Post-board vs Black based decks, I'll take Ulamog out. Lost Legacy naming Ulamog is LOL. I switch the deck to more of a midrange deck by siding in dudes, and taking out a lot of my spot removal.
I am looking to play a version of this tonight. One question: Is gaining 3 life or getting a clue with the enchantment accelerators better than just pulling a land out at instant speed with Natural Connection?
I get avoiding Druid of the Cowl to play around sweepers, just wondering the consensus on ramp.
I am looking to play a version of this tonight. One question: Is gaining 3 life or getting a clue with the enchantment accelerators better than just pulling a land out at instant speed with Natural Connection?
I get avoiding Druid of the Cowl to play around sweepers, just wondering the consensus on ramp.
I was thinking of playing a version with for gifts of paradise mean with four weirding wood sideboard and that way you can switch out the Life game for the clues if you're up against a non aggro match up I honestly think that we have sideboard space if one were to main deck against the heavy Agro maida
I have been testing Neheb, the Eternal as a 1 of and I am very satisfied.
He is a must deal threat right away but can survive under many removals such as push, grasp, abrade, Hour of Devastation, kozilek's return etc.
It's often that you ramp on turn 3 and cast him on turn 4, then turn 5 will be a blast.
So, I've been playing around with this on MTGO and I have a few questions...
#1) How often do you expect to lose to mana issues?
I went through a league with Nassif's list and played numerous matches in TP. I went 1-4 through the league losing 3x to Ranumap Red (2-6 in games) and 1x to G/R Pummeler (1-2). In all 4 of my losses, I lost at least 1 game each match to flood (most literally ending with twice as many lands as spells) or screw (stuck on 2 lands for multiple turns with a 3-mana ramp spell in hand). I think I could have easily been 4-1 if the variance could be reduced. Ideas?
#2) What guidelines do you use on keeping an open hand? Can you ever keep a 5-land opener? How heavily do you require interaction to keep a 4-land hand?
If I know I'm playing aggro, I've kept a 5-land (at least 1 desert) hand with Kozilek's Return and Hour of Promise with some success. Outside of that, I've not seen any reason to keep a 5-land hand (even against slow decks). For the 4-land hand, I feel like you need at least 1 removal spell (3-mana sweeper or spot removal) in order to keep. This may be because of my experience with the hyper-flooding on MTGO, though. Too often I feel like you take a 4-land hand and turn it into 8 lands in play, 2 zombies, and 2 mana pump enchantments with no interaction and still more ramp left in hand...
In terms of play, I really like Nassif's mana base. I feel like it is very solid and flexible - 8 deserts with a Scavenger Grounds, Sanctum of Ugin and Sea Gate Wreckage, enough red to reliably cast Hour of Devastation... It seems to work very well. I'm still not as convinced of the 7 3-mana ramp spells, 1 Shefnet Monitor, and 4 Hour of Promise as I feel that with 26 lands this is just a hair too much ramp. What are people's experiences with some of the other set-ups?
In looking at the last 10 decks published on MTGgoldfish plus Nassif's list (2 weeks of data):
27 lands - 1 deck (14 ramp - 8 sweepers)
26 lands - 5 decks (12,13,14,15x2 ramp - 6,7,8,9x2 sweepers)
25 lands - 1 deck (13 ramp - 7 sweepers)
24 lands - 4 decks (13,14,15x2 ramp - 7x2,8,9 sweepers)
That feels pretty wide open.
I'd love to hear some options on making the deck play a little more consistently...
So, I've been playing around with this on MTGO and I have a few questions...
#1) How often do you expect to lose to mana issues?
I went through a league with Nassif's list and played numerous matches in TP. I went 1-4 through the league losing 3x to Ranumap Red (2-6 in games) and 1x to G/R Pummeler (1-2). In all 4 of my losses, I lost at least 1 game each match to flood (most literally ending with twice as many lands as spells) or screw (stuck on 2 lands for multiple turns with a 3-mana ramp spell in hand). I think I could have easily been 4-1 if the variance could be reduced. Ideas?
#2) What guidelines do you use on keeping an open hand? Can you ever keep a 5-land opener? (NEVER) How heavily do you require interaction to keep a 4-land hand? (only if I had early removal/sweepers)
If I know I'm playing aggro, I've kept a 5-land (at least 1 desert) hand with Kozilek's Return and Hour of Promise with some success. Outside of that, I've not seen any reason to keep a 5-land hand (even against slow decks). For the 4-land hand, I feel like you need at least 1 removal spell (3-mana sweeper or spot removal) in order to keep. This may be because of my experience with the hyper-flooding on MTGO, though. Too often I feel like you take a 4-land hand and turn it into 8 lands in play, 2 zombies, and 2 mana pump enchantments with no interaction and still more ramp left in hand...
In terms of play, I really like Nassif's mana base. I feel like it is very solid and flexible - 8 deserts with a Scavenger Grounds, Sanctum of Ugin and Sea Gate Wreckage, enough red to reliably cast Hour of Devastation... It seems to work very well. I'm still not as convinced of the 7 3-mana ramp spells, 1 Shefnet Monitor, and 4 Hour of Promise as I feel that with 26 lands this is just a hair too much ramp. What are people's experiences with some of the other set-ups?
In looking at the last 10 decks published on MTGgoldfish plus Nassif's list (2 weeks of data):
27 lands - 1 deck (14 ramp - 8 sweepers)
26 lands - 5 decks (12,13,14,15x2 ramp - 6,7,8,9x2 sweepers)
25 lands - 1 deck (13 ramp - 7 sweepers)
24 lands - 4 decks (13,14,15x2 ramp - 7x2,8,9 sweepers)
That feels pretty wide open.
I'd love to hear some options on making the deck play a little more consistently...
Dude, gotta post your list.
A lower land count with land based ramp reduces your chance of making your lands drops each turn. Example, I wohld feel comfortable running 24 lands with enchantment based ramp but if I am running 4 Sands and Promises then I wouhldnt, 25 or 26 lands.
Super minor difference but it could be the difference between winning and losing.
I have been testing Neheb, the Eternal as a 1 of and I am very satisfied.
He is a must deal threat right away but can survive under many removals such as push, grasp, abrade, Hour of Devastation, kozilek's return etc.
It's often that you ramp on turn 3 and cast him on turn 4, then turn 5 will be a blast.
I play 1 too and he's been quite good. In one game I played him on turn 4, cast hour of devastation next turn to wipe the board, attack and cast hour of promise into Ulamog the turn after. LOL
Dude, gotta post your list.
A lower land count with land based ramp reduces your chance of making your lands drops each turn. Example, I wohld feel comfortable running 24 lands with enchantment based ramp but if I am running 4 Sands and Promises then I wouhldnt, 25 or 26 lands.
Super minor difference but it could be the difference between winning and losing.
Most of what I have been running has been much heavier on the enchantment-based ramp (6-7) than on the spell-based ramp (Beneath the Sands). After looking at this more and trying to adapt some of my play, I built this as the following:
I haven't had much time to test it yet, but the couple of matches I ran over lunch seemed to be a little smoother. I still feel like the deck is better at the ramp portion than the finish.
I may make a couple more tweaks but I do like this at 25 lands and I'm learning to be a little more aggressive with cycling Sheltered Thicket and Beneath the Sands.
Dude, gotta post your list.
A lower land count with land based ramp reduces your chance of making your lands drops each turn. Example, I wohld feel comfortable running 24 lands with enchantment based ramp but if I am running 4 Sands and Promises then I wouhldnt, 25 or 26 lands.
Super minor difference but it could be the difference between winning and losing.
Most of what I have been running has been much heavier on the enchantment-based ramp (6-7) than on the spell-based ramp (Beneath the Sands). After looking at this more and trying to adapt some of my play, I built this as the following:
I haven't had much time to test it yet, but the couple of matches I ran over lunch seemed to be a little smoother. I still feel like the deck is better at the ramp portion than the finish.
I may make a couple more tweaks but I do like this at 25 lands and I'm learning to be a little more aggressive with cycling Sheltered Thicket and Beneath the Sands.
what are your reasons for:
1 magma spray
2 Traverse
1 harness
1 deliverance
?
how do you feel about:
walking ballista
4 MD Kozilek's return......and on that note
What if one Main decked against red and zombies to improve the matc up with control Sideboard?
Dude, gotta post your list.
A lower land count with land based ramp reduces your chance of making your lands drops each turn. Example, I wohld feel comfortable running 24 lands with enchantment based ramp but if I am running 4 Sands and Promises then I wouhldnt, 25 or 26 lands.
Super minor difference but it could be the difference between winning and losing.
Most of what I have been running has been much heavier on the enchantment-based ramp (6-7) than on the spell-based ramp (Beneath the Sands). After looking at this more and trying to adapt some of my play, I built this as the following:
I haven't had much time to test it yet, but the couple of matches I ran over lunch seemed to be a little smoother. I still feel like the deck is better at the ramp portion than the finish.
I may make a couple more tweaks but I do like this at 25 lands and I'm learning to be a little more aggressive with cycling Sheltered Thicket and Beneath the Sands.
what are your reasons for:
1 magma spray
2 Traverse
1 harness
1 deliverance
?
how do you feel about:
walking ballista
4 MD Kozilek's return......and on that note
What if one Main decked against red and zombies to improve the matc up with control Sideboard?
My reasons for Magma Spray and Harnessed Lightning are that I feel like 6 spot removal cards are a good number. I split them to test if I like one over the other. I prefer Harnessed Lightning in most match-ups, but Magma Spray certainly has application vs Red and Zombies.
Dissenter's Deliverance is a utility card. Lately, I have been using it more for cycling to find land or a closer. I board it out in match-ups where the artifact kill is not needed.
Traverse the Ulvenwald is one I wanted to test to see if the mana screw issues could be solved simply. There is no non-creature ramp below 3 mana in a lot of lists that I have tried. I have played more than expected games where I sit on 2-mana for 3 turns, draw a land, and am dead on the board. I feel like we should be able to miss 1 land drop in the first 4 turns and expect to still play. I find if I miss 2, you're fighting uphill waiting for them to stall. If you miss 3, the game is lost. I feel much more confident keeping a hand with 2 lands and a Traverse than a hand with 2 lands and a Beneath the Sands. As you pointed out on the number of lands, it's probably a small, subtle difference, but it changes a lot of outcomes.
I've tried Walking Ballista and, as a 1-of, found it pretty 'meh'. It's best in the red match-up, of course, but I'm see a shift towards Zombies online.
Same thing with Kozilek's Return. It's certainly a boss vs red, but it's really a disappointment versus Zombies (and most other decks). I shifted to more maindeck Sweltering Suns, but could see keeping a Kozilek's Return in the board for added help vs Red.
That, to me, is the problem I am probably having right now. I think vs red, this deck should be set up in 1 way and versus other decks, even aggro, you would make different choices. Then again, I may just be playing wrong.
FINALLY got to play FNM after 4 weeks, last night went 4-0-1(started 4-0 then drew with last guy) playing against;
-Mardu walkers (Sideboarded in to MArdu aggro G2): Epic game 1 top decking Hour of devastation facing lethal from; 2 knight tokens, 2 servo tokens, 1 thraben inspector, Gideon at 4, Nahirir at 8 and defiant Chandra at 7. I have World Breaker in play and enough mana to cast HoD and activate Ramunap Ruins to kill Chandra after HoD and then attack Nahiri to clear his board, he was tilted! Game 2 I delivered 8 damage from Ruins to win. Also got to use scavenging grounds to exile 2 scrapheap and one cut//Ribbon while I was at 8 and he had 6 mana.
-U/W monument - bad match up for him IMO, 2 Kolilek's return, 2 sweltering suns, 2 HoD and 2 chandra flamecaller is too much to keep any board presence.
Only saw one monument that was immediately answered with Abrade.
-Temur Energy - opponent never curved out and gave me too much time.
-Mardu Vehicles - Again, all these sweepers he would play 2-3 creatures at a time and I would sweep them up, heart got met with Abrade or Deliverance.
Last guy was playing that "New Perspectives" combo deck, all I was told/observed is that it plays a 2 piece enchantment combination that allows the player to cycle for free then constantly drains the opponent.
Some Key points;
-Deserts are invaluable, its REAL nice having deserts in play already so you can fetch more exotic lands with HoP. Ruins gives you so much more reach with this deck, you can even hit planeswalkers. During the whole tournaments I only took one damage from the lands. I think going a full 9 deserts isnt a bad idea, 4 Oasis, 4 ruin and 1 scavenging grounds. Scavenging grounds has SO many applications in this meta, you HAVE to play at least one.
-I still wish I had 3 Ulamogs, I only cast him 3 times.
-I think eight 3 cmc ramp spells and full 4 HoP is right.
-HoD is a beast, at least 2 main!
-with weirding wood, sweltering sunds, beaneath the sands and sheltered thicket one can really dig through their deck to find cards.
Some Key points;
-Deserts are invaluable, its REAL nice having deserts in play already so you can fetch more exotic lands with HoP. Ruins gives you so much more reach with this deck, you can even hit planeswalkers. During the whole tournaments I only took one damage from the lands. I think going a full 9 deserts isnt a bad idea, 4 Oasis, 4 ruin and 1 scavenging grounds. Scavenging grounds has SO many applications in this meta, you HAVE to play at least one.
-I still wish I had 3 Ulamogs, I only cast him 3 times.
-I think eight 3 cmc ramp spells and full 4 HoP is right.
-HoD is a beast, at least 2 main!
-with weirding wood, sweltering sunds, beaneath the sands and sheltered thicket one can really dig through their deck to find cards.
Great Finish!
On your individual points, (1) I agree wholeheartedly on the deserts. I've taken more damage from land than you, but it's critical to have 1 in play for the turn 4 Hour of Promise. You lose so much value if you don't get the zombies... (2) I agree and I'm still playing three Ulamogs. I prefer him to World Breaker and Walking Ballista, but I've gone a slightly different direction (see below)... (3) I again agree with 8-9 3 cmc ramp spells. I split it a little differently... (4) I can see that, but I'm more comfortable in a slightly different direction... (5) I too have been impressed with how easy it is to see so much of the deck and I still don't think I cycle aggressively enough...
I took this deck through an MTGO league to a 3-2 finish. Should have been 4-1 if not for a major mistake...
Round 1 vs UW Spirits/Monument (1-0, 2-1)
Game 1 was decided by a couple of Fumigates keeping his board clear and my life total high enough. Game 2 was a mulligan to 5 followed by spirit beats. Game 3 saw a play mistake (wrong lands on Hour of Promise) not cost me a game as I was still able to cast 2 Ulamogs (after removing one with my own Descend upon the Sinful) with the 3rd in hand...
Round 2 vs RW Humans (1-1, 2-3)
Game 1 was a mulligan to 6 and a sound beating. I had no early interaction or sweeper to help against 3 creatures and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Game 2 was closer and, maybe, I used my 2x Cast Out on the wrong creatures, but the double striking Needle Spire still went a long way on me. This was one of the first games I lost with an active Authority of the Consuls.
Round 3 vs Mono B Zombies (2-1, 4-4)
Game 1 had me lead off with a blind turn 1 Authority of the Consuls. My life total never went below 20. Game 2 was a loss due to a misplay. I cast a World Breaker on a full board instead of the Descend upon the Sinful... Luckily Game 3 saw a perfect curve of turn 5 Fumigate and Turn 6 Ulamog (with a second Ulamog in hand).
Round 4 vs GB Cryptolith Rites (2-2, 5-6)
Game 1 was a mulligan and me just trying to figure out what he was doing. Authority of the Consuls kept me in the game to see what was going on, but at that point, I was dead to 2 swings from Ormendahl. Game 2 was understanding that Yahenni, Undying Partisan needs to be removed quickly and permanently followed up by a couple sweepers and Ulamog. Game 3 he had a fast flip on a Duskwatch Recruiter which flooded his board. No sweeper showed up on my side.
Round 5 vs UB Control (3-2, 7-6)
Game 1, I'm not sure he really understood the match-up and he may have made a couple mistakes. The result was a fight over an Ulamog with an Ugin trigger. It ended with me landing Ajani and removing the Gearhulk. My next Ajani activation revealed Balista, World Breaker, and Authority... Game 2 was pretty hard fought and once he lost his card advantage, I took over sweeping up The Scarab God with a Descend upon the Sinful netting an uncontested Angel...
At the end of the day, I was pretty happy with the white over red. Fumigate and Descend upon the Sinful made a nice sweeper suite, but the spot removal was really lacking.
I think my keys moving forward are:
(1) Lands make a huge difference. I never activated Sea Gate Wreckage, so while it sounds good - the consistency of another desert or colored mana source is probably better. As previously stated, you really want (at least) 1 desert by turn 4 to maximize the return on Hour of Promise. My own issue was tapping the right mana at the right time... Shorting yourself on white mana is never a positive...
(2) The deck needs better early interaction. White spot removal is not good. I sided in Blessed Alliance for a couple of Game 2s and almost always sided it back out for Game 3. Authority plus sweepers is great, but you have to find a way to the sweepers. Access to 'exile' interaction also seems to be a key right now... Not sure if the Pacifism approach would work, but maybe...
(3) Ajani Unyielding blew my mind. I had no idea how powerful he would be. Playing the enchantment acceleration with him is right as the card advantage he provides in the late game is back breaking for opponents.
(4) This was the first set of matches in a long time where play mistakes cost me in a big way either elongating the game or killing me on the spot. Many people talk about how ramp can 'lose to itself'. I want to quit adding to the number...
With nothing hitting the B&R list from Standard today, I'll probably make some minor changes and hit another league. If anyone has ideas, let me know! What are the thoughts on adding an additional color?
Why are people play Oblivion Sower in SideBoards now?
How is that better than other cards?
I currently don't play it in my sideboard, but I could see a use vs U/W Approach since it arbitrarily removes cards from the game and could hit an Approach. I tend to agree with you that this is not better than other options. I've actually found that with 7 enchantment accelerators, I'm able to support Lost Legacy in that match-up which is nice support for a Thought-Knot Seer.
Question for you, do you think this morphs into some kind of dinosaur ramp with Ixalan?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
And Mono Red
I keep reading about Hazoret in Mono Red and how HoD kills it. They run 4 of those so its definitely a card we have to answer so perhaps HoD can buy enough time until we get World Breaker out to block him.
What is your mana base? I am starting to think a split of 3 Rtn/Suns would be good to address those key 3 toughness creatures from Constrictor and zombies.
then you cant play sweepers........
its just a huge mana sink and can take over a game. Good against control too, direct damage, planewalkers.
I play 3, want to play 4, but I play grapple, maybe 3 is fine!?
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
I'm currently using the mana base that Todd posted in his SCG article. Though know that I've had a few days to think about it; I'll be making some changes to it for my meta. There are a few players at the store that are playing graveyard based decks (either Zombies or God-Pharaoh's Gift) and because of that I'll be adding in 2 to 3 Scavenger Grounds; which if I do; mean that I'll want to add 1 or 2 other deserts so that I'll have a way to interact with their graveyard multiple times if necessary. I'm just not fond of having to take damage from my own lands if I can help it. So I don't want to play too many; but we do need a way to interact with their graveyard. While the deck is not popular; it is still one that can win games if you are not prepared.
I'm just not sure how I would change it yet to add those lands into the deck.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
I too am going to be adding a scavenger grounds after watching Gabriel Nassif play ramp in his channel Fireball video. I'm going to be taking out a hostile desert and putting in a Scavenging grounds and then I'll have seven deserts total for the deck. With four hour to promise and potentially any # of shefet monitors your access to Deserts should be increased that way you don't have to play more than two, which would be a waste in my opinion
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-nassif-standard-rg-ramp/
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
They'll counter a few spells.
But every threat is backbreaking.
Tracker has to die on arrival or he takes over the game.
TKS being a 4/4 means their removal lines up poorly. We get info to play around their hand and take one of their best spells.
Reality Smasher is the bane of all things control.
World Breaker starts blowing up their lands.
Ulamog is Ulamog.
Post-board vs Black based decks, I'll take Ulamog out. Lost Legacy naming Ulamog is LOL. I switch the deck to more of a midrange deck by siding in dudes, and taking out a lot of my spot removal.
I get avoiding Druid of the Cowl to play around sweepers, just wondering the consensus on ramp.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
He is a must deal threat right away but can survive under many removals such as push, grasp, abrade, Hour of Devastation, kozilek's return etc.
It's often that you ramp on turn 3 and cast him on turn 4, then turn 5 will be a blast.
#1) How often do you expect to lose to mana issues?
I went through a league with Nassif's list and played numerous matches in TP. I went 1-4 through the league losing 3x to Ranumap Red (2-6 in games) and 1x to G/R Pummeler (1-2). In all 4 of my losses, I lost at least 1 game each match to flood (most literally ending with twice as many lands as spells) or screw (stuck on 2 lands for multiple turns with a 3-mana ramp spell in hand). I think I could have easily been 4-1 if the variance could be reduced. Ideas?
#2) What guidelines do you use on keeping an open hand? Can you ever keep a 5-land opener? How heavily do you require interaction to keep a 4-land hand?
If I know I'm playing aggro, I've kept a 5-land (at least 1 desert) hand with Kozilek's Return and Hour of Promise with some success. Outside of that, I've not seen any reason to keep a 5-land hand (even against slow decks). For the 4-land hand, I feel like you need at least 1 removal spell (3-mana sweeper or spot removal) in order to keep. This may be because of my experience with the hyper-flooding on MTGO, though. Too often I feel like you take a 4-land hand and turn it into 8 lands in play, 2 zombies, and 2 mana pump enchantments with no interaction and still more ramp left in hand...
In terms of play, I really like Nassif's mana base. I feel like it is very solid and flexible - 8 deserts with a Scavenger Grounds, Sanctum of Ugin and Sea Gate Wreckage, enough red to reliably cast Hour of Devastation... It seems to work very well. I'm still not as convinced of the 7 3-mana ramp spells, 1 Shefnet Monitor, and 4 Hour of Promise as I feel that with 26 lands this is just a hair too much ramp. What are people's experiences with some of the other set-ups?
In looking at the last 10 decks published on MTGgoldfish plus Nassif's list (2 weeks of data):
27 lands - 1 deck (14 ramp - 8 sweepers)
26 lands - 5 decks (12,13,14,15x2 ramp - 6,7,8,9x2 sweepers)
25 lands - 1 deck (13 ramp - 7 sweepers)
24 lands - 4 decks (13,14,15x2 ramp - 7x2,8,9 sweepers)
That feels pretty wide open.
I'd love to hear some options on making the deck play a little more consistently...
Dude, gotta post your list.
A lower land count with land based ramp reduces your chance of making your lands drops each turn. Example, I wohld feel comfortable running 24 lands with enchantment based ramp but if I am running 4 Sands and Promises then I wouhldnt, 25 or 26 lands.
Super minor difference but it could be the difference between winning and losing.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Here's the list I was playing:
4 Forest
4 Hashep Oasis
2 Mountain
3 Ramunap Ruins
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Sheltered Thicket
4 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
4 Abrade
1 Harnessed Lightning
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Dissenter's Deliverance
4 Kozilek's Return
1 Beneath the Sands
2 Gift of Paradise
4 Weirding Wood
2 Hour of Devastation
4 Hour of Promise
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Shefet Monitor
3 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Walking Ballista
Most of what I have been running has been much heavier on the enchantment-based ramp (6-7) than on the spell-based ramp (Beneath the Sands). After looking at this more and trying to adapt some of my play, I built this as the following:
2 Game Trail
3 Hashep Oasis
2 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Sheltered Thicket
3 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Abrade
1 Harnessed Lightning
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Dissenter's Deliverance
1 Kozilek's Return
3 Sweltering Suns
1 Beneath the Sands
2 Gift of Paradise
4 Weirding Wood
2 Hour of Devastation
1 Neheb, the Eternal
4 Hour of Promise
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Shefet Monitor
2 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
I haven't had much time to test it yet, but the couple of matches I ran over lunch seemed to be a little smoother. I still feel like the deck is better at the ramp portion than the finish.
I may make a couple more tweaks but I do like this at 25 lands and I'm learning to be a little more aggressive with cycling Sheltered Thicket and Beneath the Sands.
what are your reasons for:
1 magma spray
2 Traverse
1 harness
1 deliverance
?
how do you feel about:
walking ballista
4 MD Kozilek's return......and on that note
What if one Main decked against red and zombies to improve the matc up with control Sideboard?
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
My reasons for Magma Spray and Harnessed Lightning are that I feel like 6 spot removal cards are a good number. I split them to test if I like one over the other. I prefer Harnessed Lightning in most match-ups, but Magma Spray certainly has application vs Red and Zombies.
Dissenter's Deliverance is a utility card. Lately, I have been using it more for cycling to find land or a closer. I board it out in match-ups where the artifact kill is not needed.
Traverse the Ulvenwald is one I wanted to test to see if the mana screw issues could be solved simply. There is no non-creature ramp below 3 mana in a lot of lists that I have tried. I have played more than expected games where I sit on 2-mana for 3 turns, draw a land, and am dead on the board. I feel like we should be able to miss 1 land drop in the first 4 turns and expect to still play. I find if I miss 2, you're fighting uphill waiting for them to stall. If you miss 3, the game is lost. I feel much more confident keeping a hand with 2 lands and a Traverse than a hand with 2 lands and a Beneath the Sands. As you pointed out on the number of lands, it's probably a small, subtle difference, but it changes a lot of outcomes.
I've tried Walking Ballista and, as a 1-of, found it pretty 'meh'. It's best in the red match-up, of course, but I'm see a shift towards Zombies online.
Same thing with Kozilek's Return. It's certainly a boss vs red, but it's really a disappointment versus Zombies (and most other decks). I shifted to more maindeck Sweltering Suns, but could see keeping a Kozilek's Return in the board for added help vs Red.
That, to me, is the problem I am probably having right now. I think vs red, this deck should be set up in 1 way and versus other decks, even aggro, you would make different choices. Then again, I may just be playing wrong.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpden17/9-32-decklists-2017-08-20
2 Ajani Unyielding
Creature (12)
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Walking Ballista
1 World Breaker
Sorcery (13)
2 Descend upon the Sinful
4 Fumigate
4 Hour of Promise
3 Spring // Mind
Instant (1)
1 Dissenter's Deliverance
Enchantment (7)
2 Cast Out
3 Gift of Paradise
2 Weirding Wood
4 Forest
3 Fortified Village
3 Hashep Oasis
2 Plains
1 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Scattered Groves
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
3 Shefet Dunes
3 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Quarantine Field
2 Permeating Mass
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
2 Blessed Alliance
3 Authority of the Consuls
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
edifice of authority on Hazoret, Nice!
Which PPTQ was it? Where?
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
It was small this time though. 24 people only, PT qualification for top-2.
Other finalist was on Mardu Machines.
-Mardu walkers (Sideboarded in to MArdu aggro G2): Epic game 1 top decking Hour of devastation facing lethal from; 2 knight tokens, 2 servo tokens, 1 thraben inspector, Gideon at 4, Nahirir at 8 and defiant Chandra at 7. I have World Breaker in play and enough mana to cast HoD and activate Ramunap Ruins to kill Chandra after HoD and then attack Nahiri to clear his board, he was tilted! Game 2 I delivered 8 damage from Ruins to win. Also got to use scavenging grounds to exile 2 scrapheap and one cut//Ribbon while I was at 8 and he had 6 mana.
-U/W monument - bad match up for him IMO, 2 Kolilek's return, 2 sweltering suns, 2 HoD and 2 chandra flamecaller is too much to keep any board presence.
Only saw one monument that was immediately answered with Abrade.
-Temur Energy - opponent never curved out and gave me too much time.
-Mardu Vehicles - Again, all these sweepers he would play 2-3 creatures at a time and I would sweep them up, heart got met with Abrade or Deliverance.
Last guy was playing that "New Perspectives" combo deck, all I was told/observed is that it plays a 2 piece enchantment combination that allows the player to cycle for free then constantly drains the opponent.
3 Walking Ballista
3 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Spells - 27
1 Cut // Ribbon
4 Abrade
4 Beneath the Sands
4 Gift of Paradise
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Sweltering Suns
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Hour of Devastation
4 Hour of Promise
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
5 forest
2 Mountain
3 Sheltered Thicket
2 Game Trail
1 Cinder Glade
3 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
3 Hashep Oasis
3 Ramunap Ruins
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Weirding Wood - swap for gifts
4 Thought-knot Seer
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Prowling Serpopard
1 Hour of Devastation - midrange decks
1 Dissenter's Deliverance - vehicles
Some Key points;
-Deserts are invaluable, its REAL nice having deserts in play already so you can fetch more exotic lands with HoP. Ruins gives you so much more reach with this deck, you can even hit planeswalkers. During the whole tournaments I only took one damage from the lands. I think going a full 9 deserts isnt a bad idea, 4 Oasis, 4 ruin and 1 scavenging grounds. Scavenging grounds has SO many applications in this meta, you HAVE to play at least one.
-I still wish I had 3 Ulamogs, I only cast him 3 times.
-I think eight 3 cmc ramp spells and full 4 HoP is right.
-HoD is a beast, at least 2 main!
-with weirding wood, sweltering sunds, beaneath the sands and sheltered thicket one can really dig through their deck to find cards.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Great Finish!
On your individual points, (1) I agree wholeheartedly on the deserts. I've taken more damage from land than you, but it's critical to have 1 in play for the turn 4 Hour of Promise. You lose so much value if you don't get the zombies... (2) I agree and I'm still playing three Ulamogs. I prefer him to World Breaker and Walking Ballista, but I've gone a slightly different direction (see below)... (3) I again agree with 8-9 3 cmc ramp spells. I split it a little differently... (4) I can see that, but I'm more comfortable in a slightly different direction... (5) I too have been impressed with how easy it is to see so much of the deck and I still don't think I cycle aggressively enough...
I took this deck through an MTGO league to a 3-2 finish. Should have been 4-1 if not for a major mistake...
4 Forest
2 Fortified Village
4 Hashep Oasis
2 Plains
1 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Scattered Groves
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
3 Shefet Dunes
4 Shrine of the Forsaken
CREATURES (7)
2 World Breaker
2 Walking Ballista
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Ajani Unyielding
ENCHANTMENTS (12)
2 Authority of the Consuls
3 Gift of Paradise
4 Weirding Wood
3 Cast Out
SPELLS (13)
1 Dissenter's Deliverance
4 Fumigate
4 Hour of Promise
2 Descend upon the Sinful
1 Farm // Market
1 Spring // Mind
2 Authority of the Consuls
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Solemnity
2 Linvala, the Preserver
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Thought-Knot Seer
Round 1 vs UW Spirits/Monument (1-0, 2-1)
Game 1 was decided by a couple of Fumigates keeping his board clear and my life total high enough. Game 2 was a mulligan to 5 followed by spirit beats. Game 3 saw a play mistake (wrong lands on Hour of Promise) not cost me a game as I was still able to cast 2 Ulamogs (after removing one with my own Descend upon the Sinful) with the 3rd in hand...
Round 2 vs RW Humans (1-1, 2-3)
Game 1 was a mulligan to 6 and a sound beating. I had no early interaction or sweeper to help against 3 creatures and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Game 2 was closer and, maybe, I used my 2x Cast Out on the wrong creatures, but the double striking Needle Spire still went a long way on me. This was one of the first games I lost with an active Authority of the Consuls.
Round 3 vs Mono B Zombies (2-1, 4-4)
Game 1 had me lead off with a blind turn 1 Authority of the Consuls. My life total never went below 20. Game 2 was a loss due to a misplay. I cast a World Breaker on a full board instead of the Descend upon the Sinful... Luckily Game 3 saw a perfect curve of turn 5 Fumigate and Turn 6 Ulamog (with a second Ulamog in hand).
Round 4 vs GB Cryptolith Rites (2-2, 5-6)
Game 1 was a mulligan and me just trying to figure out what he was doing. Authority of the Consuls kept me in the game to see what was going on, but at that point, I was dead to 2 swings from Ormendahl. Game 2 was understanding that Yahenni, Undying Partisan needs to be removed quickly and permanently followed up by a couple sweepers and Ulamog. Game 3 he had a fast flip on a Duskwatch Recruiter which flooded his board. No sweeper showed up on my side.
Round 5 vs UB Control (3-2, 7-6)
Game 1, I'm not sure he really understood the match-up and he may have made a couple mistakes. The result was a fight over an Ulamog with an Ugin trigger. It ended with me landing Ajani and removing the Gearhulk. My next Ajani activation revealed Balista, World Breaker, and Authority... Game 2 was pretty hard fought and once he lost his card advantage, I took over sweeping up The Scarab God with a Descend upon the Sinful netting an uncontested Angel...
At the end of the day, I was pretty happy with the white over red. Fumigate and Descend upon the Sinful made a nice sweeper suite, but the spot removal was really lacking.
I think my keys moving forward are:
(1) Lands make a huge difference. I never activated Sea Gate Wreckage, so while it sounds good - the consistency of another desert or colored mana source is probably better. As previously stated, you really want (at least) 1 desert by turn 4 to maximize the return on Hour of Promise. My own issue was tapping the right mana at the right time... Shorting yourself on white mana is never a positive...
(2) The deck needs better early interaction. White spot removal is not good. I sided in Blessed Alliance for a couple of Game 2s and almost always sided it back out for Game 3. Authority plus sweepers is great, but you have to find a way to the sweepers. Access to 'exile' interaction also seems to be a key right now... Not sure if the Pacifism approach would work, but maybe...
(3) Ajani Unyielding blew my mind. I had no idea how powerful he would be. Playing the enchantment acceleration with him is right as the card advantage he provides in the late game is back breaking for opponents.
(4) This was the first set of matches in a long time where play mistakes cost me in a big way either elongating the game or killing me on the spot. Many people talk about how ramp can 'lose to itself'. I want to quit adding to the number...
With nothing hitting the B&R list from Standard today, I'll probably make some minor changes and hit another league. If anyone has ideas, let me know! What are the thoughts on adding an additional color?
Thanks!
How is that better than other cards?
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
It has a good body that ramps you, usually replace Hour of promise to dodge negate or warping wail, has some interacts with world breaker and ulamog.
I currently don't play it in my sideboard, but I could see a use vs U/W Approach since it arbitrarily removes cards from the game and could hit an Approach. I tend to agree with you that this is not better than other options. I've actually found that with 7 enchantment accelerators, I'm able to support Lost Legacy in that match-up which is nice support for a Thought-Knot Seer.
Question for you, do you think this morphs into some kind of dinosaur ramp with Ixalan?