The Traverses smooth out the combo a bit but they don't help you dig to the New Perspectives, which in my experience is a much easier way to lose. Don't take my word for it. Take the deck out for a spin and try and beat Mardu Vehicles with your first real interaction coming in at four mana. See how often you just can't find New Perspectives.
When you run hot you can crush aggro by comboing off on turn 5. When you don't run hot they'll run you over. There's a reason the deck only put 43% of its pilots through to day two on the PT.
The control matchup is not that bad. They don't put too much of a clock on you so you can cycle to shape your hand and have a decent shot of forcing through a threat.
A drake haven by itself on the board is more of a distraction than a wincon. Most decks can either kill you before you start making drakes (Mardu, Zombies) or outclass the drakes (Dragonmaster Outcast, Zombies). Marvel just Ulamogs you and laughs, of course.
Against decks which run Lost Legacy how should we fight back?
We could:
Run 3-4x Angel of Sanctions and sweepers as an ult wincon seems viable since they should be cutting down removals against us.
or
Bring in Negates and try and get lucky.
I actually just posted on this issue over in the Second Sun thread. Figured I'd start posting here as well as my deck does revolve around New Perspectives in order to get Approach faster. Needless to say, I'm debating going full on control sideboard with Spell Queller, a playset of Negate, 3 Disallow and 2 Dispel. Yes, it slows down the deck A LOT but being a little slow and safer vs Lost Legacy may be the way to go. I'm making a Meta Prediction here in that we won't see to many full-on control decks until next set.
Opinions?
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Against any deck that plays black you should bring in one Faith of the Devoted and probably also one Drake Haven. Faith of the Devoted is a near perfect replacement for approach and Drake Haven is usually good enough if you're comboing off. If the opponent is smart enough to go after New Perspectives instead of the wincon you'll still want Drake Haven around to try and stall out the game while you manually assemble approach.
In all honesty the deck has a lot of trouble with zombies. They put you under enough pressure that any hiccup will probably leave you dead. Post-board the transgress the mind (plus forcing fogs) can keep you under the critical mass needed to combo off even if you survive long enough to play New Perspectives. Oddly enough I've found Roilmage's Trick to be pretty key against them since it can fog them without depleting your hand. It still feels like you need a 75th percentile hand to compete with their average hands.
You know I was thinking maybe we should discuss the possible metagames we can design the Main Deck and SB to fight. For Instance I think the Core of the deck is:
4x Shadow of the Grave
4x New Perspectives
4x Vizier of the Tumbling Sands
3-4x Weirding Wood
3-4x Shefet Monitor
1x Approach of the Second Sun (or if another wincon works that is fine as well though Approach seems the easiest)
4x Traverse
After this we can start customizing to our meta game. For instance I'm highly considering playing this deck for Game Day as I know our meta is mostly aggro with a splash of control decks. So the other possible choices could be
Haze of Pollen
Sweltering Suns
Cast Out
Renewed Faith
These 4 cards I believe are all very strong in the main if the meta is going to be heavy aggro with with Cast Out possibly getting the cut. If Control is more prevalent then I would add Censor instead of something else in that list and the 1 Sphinx to stop counters from catching my Approach. I don't like the splits I've seen so far so going all in one way or the other might be a better choice. I had considered a single Commit/Memory to shuffle things back in vs Control if they think they have me.
I think the Core is where we need to start then everything builds from there based on where your going or what you think the meta is. Thats the true strength of the deck right now is the ability to change things up. Amonkhet provided us the awesome mana base that is in theme as well so that was hugely important. As far as what lands to play I think that is really going to change depending on your main. Anyways I am beginning to ramble here. I will post up a decklist tomorrow according to my own FLGS meta and if I'm feeling really good a match report after Sat.
It was built upon the cycling deck that popped up on MTGO. The original list played like crap, and I piloted it to a 1-4 record. I made the above adjustments and the deck runs a lot smoother now, with the ability to go aggro with the Curators, Angels and Spell Quellers.
I'm debating taking Authority of the Consuls out for something and Watchers of the dead out for Scarab Feast or even run my own Lost Legacy
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I think those are fine adjustments. Authority doesn't seems very good right now. And Scarab Feast does seem like a strict upgrade to the Watchers since it does a better job of GY removal and it fits what we are trying to do. I'm interested in the Curators as they would be unexpected by almost all opponents.
I think those are fine adjustments. Authority doesn't seems very good right now. And Scarab Feast does seem like a strict upgrade to the Watchers since it does a better job of GY removal and it fits what we are trying to do. I'm interested in the Curators as they would be unexpected by almost all opponents.
The Curators have done some work, as it catches everyone except my wife off-guard. If we can get a Curator to stick, it also lets us dig our decks faster when combo out.
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This is my current take on the list. I still like the Sphinx in the main because my LGS knows what I will play and they just wait for my Approachto get countered. Might cut 1 land for 1 Faith of the Devoted, just to have another wincon in the deck.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
So is New Perspectives still a deck? I've been thinking of trying the The Locust God as a 1 of in the sideboard to bring in after my opponents side out most of their removal. I haven't tested it yet but I figure in games 2 and 3 when opponents bring in Lost Legacy it's a good way to diversify.
So what's peoples' thoughts on creatures winning instead of a combo win? cards like vile manifestation and hollow one come to mind and we back them up with countervailing winds? If you still want to "combo" I'm gonna try a list with faith of the devoted as the main combocon and shave copies of new perspectives itself.
My apologies for the lack of hyperlinks idk the way to longhand it and my phone doesn't allow me to insert them
So I changed my list a little bit (- 4 Censors, + 4 Sweltering Suns) and had some pretty nice games. Is anyone else till on this deck and wants to help getting it better for Gameday? Any of the new cards for our deck?
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
I've had some success in testing 2 copies of Countervailing Winds over Sphinx of the Final Word in the main deck. Countervailing Winds has some utility before you're comboing off and it also is easier to get to 17 mana over 21 mana, especially in those situations when you have access to only 2 Viziers when you try to combo off.
I've been working on a super-budget version of this deck lately. So far I've spent 7 tix on MTGO to build it basically from scratch - but that means my mana is slightly worse. I haven't died much to it yet, though.
The bad mana also enables an interesting card out of the sideboard...
The sideboard is mostly garbage - very much a work in progress as I continue to seek the ideal game 1 build.
I felt like I was dying to variance too much (no New Perspectives in the top 20-25 cards, die to beatdown), so I forked out the money for Sweltering Suns (about 60% of the value of the deck!).
I've liked having them so far.
I'm considering Struggle // Survive over Commit // Memory. Commit is better than Struggle, but Survive is a better emergency re-try than Memory. I've not yet needed the re-try though, so it makes me feel that the front end is more important.
The mana could get slightly better, but it's a lot closer to ideal as-is than it looks. It needs a lot of basics for Shefet Monitor, and Ramunap Hydra out of the board loves having all those deserts around.
Zero land-based ways to cast Second Sun or Shadow has never come up so far, but might be worth having a backup option for each.
5/5 Ramunap vs. most of the field, especially post-board with most removal gone, has been a house. Obviously invalidated by blue Gearhulk, but that's probably okay.
I've never won a game because of Hydra so far, but that's because I keep winning with Perspectives.
I'm definitely considering a copy of Scavenger Grounds - still an untapped land searchable with Shefet Monitor, with additional utility sometimes. However, it makes the sketchy mana even worse, if only slightly.
I have considered Supreme Will as well, but it has to work hard to earn a slot. I already have 25 slots devoted to non-cycling cards in the mainboard, and that feels really shallow - although I currently have a 0% loss rate after resolving New Perspectives, with this build. So maybe it's worth the extra digging.
Fun moments:
Nimble Obstructionist has been fantastic so far, and I may put 1 more in the main. A few days ago it countered a well-timed Scavenger Grounds from my opponent mid-combo who was trying to play gotcha on my Shadow of the Grave.
Yesterday I had a match against a Gifts deck - felt good to counter their Gate search ability. At worst, it's an awful Impeccable Timing.
My apologies for not including card links in post! Posting from my phone, so I'm a bit too lazy, haha.
I've abandoned the Sweltering Suns plan in my current build - I was convinced when I consecutively lost a match due to color screw, then lost another game vs. Ramunap Red after resolving two Swelterings.
Meanwhile, my win rate is doing okay without them.
On the Sphinx, I have never played it and have still been able to beat Control. My main deck has only one win condition, my other wins come in later games.
Another option is Carnage Tyrant, not too bad.
I agree on testing Spell Pierce, but honestly it seems even better AGAINST us, along with Duress. I'm a bit worried, but I think we'll survive.
When do you bring in Drake Havens, and have they been any good?
I tried a after rotation versio, and has fared well, with a 11 to 2 win lost ratio these past few days. Abbandoned censor and sent Sweltering suns to the side. 4 faith renewed and 4 cast out in the main. I play 4 of each UW, GW and BU duals, with 3 of each of the red duals for the side plans. 3 forest, 2 islands, 1 plain and 1 swamp round up the mana base. Also main deck I run 1 Commit//Memory and 1 Faith of the Devoted (worked wonders). My side is 3 Suns, 3 Countervailing winds, 3 Dissenter Deliverance as the cicle options, 3 Negate(that may mutate into spell pierce) and 3 Drake Haven. The Haven has felt a little...off to me lately.
Also 4x Drake Haven seem quite important - I imagine its MUCH easier to win the counter war on that front then it is for New Perspectives.
Basically I think the origin list looks better.
Enjoy Standard, Modern and Music (also some Pauper, Momir, Gaming, Animations and Legacy)? Then visit my channel:Here
When you run hot you can crush aggro by comboing off on turn 5. When you don't run hot they'll run you over. There's a reason the deck only put 43% of its pilots through to day two on the PT.
The control matchup is not that bad. They don't put too much of a clock on you so you can cycle to shape your hand and have a decent shot of forcing through a threat.
A drake haven by itself on the board is more of a distraction than a wincon. Most decks can either kill you before you start making drakes (Mardu, Zombies) or outclass the drakes (Dragonmaster Outcast, Zombies). Marvel just Ulamogs you and laughs, of course.
We could:
Run 3-4x Angel of Sanctions and sweepers as an ult wincon seems viable since they should be cutting down removals against us.
or
Bring in Negates and try and get lucky.
Enjoy Standard, Modern and Music (also some Pauper, Momir, Gaming, Animations and Legacy)? Then visit my channel:Here
I actually just posted on this issue over in the Second Sun thread. Figured I'd start posting here as well as my deck does revolve around New Perspectives in order to get Approach faster. Needless to say, I'm debating going full on control sideboard with Spell Queller, a playset of Negate, 3 Disallow and 2 Dispel. Yes, it slows down the deck A LOT but being a little slow and safer vs Lost Legacy may be the way to go. I'm making a Meta Prediction here in that we won't see to many full-on control decks until next set.
Opinions?
Co-Owner / Systems Administrator
Fail Gaming
www.FailGaming.com
Skype: Kibbelznbitz69
In all honesty the deck has a lot of trouble with zombies. They put you under enough pressure that any hiccup will probably leave you dead. Post-board the transgress the mind (plus forcing fogs) can keep you under the critical mass needed to combo off even if you survive long enough to play New Perspectives. Oddly enough I've found Roilmage's Trick to be pretty key against them since it can fog them without depleting your hand. It still feels like you need a 75th percentile hand to compete with their average hands.
4x Shadow of the Grave
4x New Perspectives
4x Vizier of the Tumbling Sands
3-4x Weirding Wood
3-4x Shefet Monitor
1x Approach of the Second Sun (or if another wincon works that is fine as well though Approach seems the easiest)
4x Traverse
After this we can start customizing to our meta game. For instance I'm highly considering playing this deck for Game Day as I know our meta is mostly aggro with a splash of control decks. So the other possible choices could be
Haze of Pollen
Sweltering Suns
Cast Out
Renewed Faith
These 4 cards I believe are all very strong in the main if the meta is going to be heavy aggro with with Cast Out possibly getting the cut. If Control is more prevalent then I would add Censor instead of something else in that list and the 1 Sphinx to stop counters from catching my Approach. I don't like the splits I've seen so far so going all in one way or the other might be a better choice. I had considered a single Commit/Memory to shuffle things back in vs Control if they think they have me.
I think the Core is where we need to start then everything builds from there based on where your going or what you think the meta is. Thats the true strength of the deck right now is the ability to change things up. Amonkhet provided us the awesome mana base that is in theme as well so that was hugely important. As far as what lands to play I think that is really going to change depending on your main. Anyways I am beginning to ramble here. I will post up a decklist tomorrow according to my own FLGS meta and if I'm feeling really good a match report after Sat.
4 Shefet Monitor
3 Curator of Mysteries
4 Vizier of Tumbling Sands
4 Haze of Pollen
4 Renewed Faith
3 Shadow of the Grave
4 Censor
1 Approach of the Second Sun
4 Cast Out
4 New Perspectives
3 Weirding Wood
4 Forest
2 Fortified Village
4 Irrigated Farmland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Scattered Groves
4 Sheltered Thicket
3 Angel of Sanctions
2 Dispel
2 Watchers of the Dead
2 Authority of Consuls
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
3 Spell Queller
2 Negate
It was built upon the cycling deck that popped up on MTGO. The original list played like crap, and I piloted it to a 1-4 record. I made the above adjustments and the deck runs a lot smoother now, with the ability to go aggro with the Curators, Angels and Spell Quellers.
I'm debating taking Authority of the Consuls out for something and Watchers of the dead out for Scarab Feast or even run my own Lost Legacy
Co-Owner / Systems Administrator
Fail Gaming
www.FailGaming.com
Skype: Kibbelznbitz69
The Curators have done some work, as it catches everyone except my wife off-guard. If we can get a Curator to stick, it also lets us dig our decks faster when combo out.
Co-Owner / Systems Administrator
Fail Gaming
www.FailGaming.com
Skype: Kibbelznbitz69
3 Weirding Wood
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 New Perspectives
2 Cast Out
4 Censor
3 Renewed Faith
3 Haze of Pollen
4 Vizier of Tumbling Sands
4 Shefet Monitor
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
4 Scattered Groves
4 Irrigated Farmland
2 Fetid Pools
1 Canyon Slough
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Forest
1 Renewed Faith
1 Haze of Pollen
3 Radiant Flames
1 Kefnet the Mindful
3 Drake Haven
3 Negate
2 Dispossess
1 Dispel
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15792&d=296913&f=ST
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
My apologies for the lack of hyperlinks idk the way to longhand it and my phone doesn't allow me to insert them
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
There are some good additions. I Now play Vile Manifestation and Razaketh's Rite and testing Countervailing Winds and Abandoned Sarcophagus. I tested Beneath the Sands and it's fine in the curve and give us a ramp. Didn't test Djeru's Renunciation yet.
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
4 Sheltered Thicket
4 Scattered Groves
3 Irrigated Farmland
2 Fetid Pools
1 Canyon Slough
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Forest
2 Game Trail
4 Vizier of Tumbling Sands
4 Shefet Monitor
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
SORCERIES 8
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Sweltering Suns
1 Approach of the Second Sun
INSTANTS 13
4 Shadow of the Grave
3 Haze of Pollen
3 Censor
3 Renewed Faith
ENCHANTMENT 7
4 New Perspectives
3 Weirding Wood
3 Negate
1 Haze of Pollen
1 Renewed Faith
1 Sweltering Suns
2 Drake Haven
1 Faith of the Devoted
3 Countervailing Winds
3 Hour of Devastation
Changes I would assume: Get a second Approach of the Second Sun into the main deck, maybe instead of the Sphinx of the Final Word or instead of 1 Censor.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
The bad mana also enables an interesting card out of the sideboard...
4 Desert of the Fervent
4 Desert of the Indomidable
4 Desert of the Mindful
4 Mountain
4 Forest
4 Island
CREATURES 9
4 Vizier of Tumbling Sands
4 Shefet Monitor
1 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Sweltering Suns
1 Approach of the Second Sun
INSTANTS 14
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Haze of Pollen
3 Censor
2 Countervailing Winds
1 Commit // Memory
ENCHANTMENT 8
4 New Perspectives
4 Gift of Paradise
4 Ramunap Hydra
1 Faith of the Devoted
3 Nimble Obstructionist
3 Negate
1 Censor
1 Commit // Memory
2 Island
The sideboard is mostly garbage - very much a work in progress as I continue to seek the ideal game 1 build.
I felt like I was dying to variance too much (no New Perspectives in the top 20-25 cards, die to beatdown), so I forked out the money for Sweltering Suns (about 60% of the value of the deck!).
I've liked having them so far.
I'm considering Struggle // Survive over Commit // Memory. Commit is better than Struggle, but Survive is a better emergency re-try than Memory. I've not yet needed the re-try though, so it makes me feel that the front end is more important.
The mana could get slightly better, but it's a lot closer to ideal as-is than it looks. It needs a lot of basics for Shefet Monitor, and Ramunap Hydra out of the board loves having all those deserts around.
Zero land-based ways to cast Second Sun or Shadow has never come up so far, but might be worth having a backup option for each.
5/5 Ramunap vs. most of the field, especially post-board with most removal gone, has been a house. Obviously invalidated by blue Gearhulk, but that's probably okay.
I've never won a game because of Hydra so far, but that's because I keep winning with Perspectives.
I'm definitely considering a copy of Scavenger Grounds - still an untapped land searchable with Shefet Monitor, with additional utility sometimes. However, it makes the sketchy mana even worse, if only slightly.
I have considered Supreme Will as well, but it has to work hard to earn a slot. I already have 25 slots devoted to non-cycling cards in the mainboard, and that feels really shallow - although I currently have a 0% loss rate after resolving New Perspectives, with this build. So maybe it's worth the extra digging.
Fun moments:
Nimble Obstructionist has been fantastic so far, and I may put 1 more in the main. A few days ago it countered a well-timed Scavenger Grounds from my opponent mid-combo who was trying to play gotcha on my Shadow of the Grave.
Yesterday I had a match against a Gifts deck - felt good to counter their Gate search ability. At worst, it's an awful Impeccable Timing.
My apologies for not including card links in post! Posting from my phone, so I'm a bit too lazy, haha.
I'm testing that list with gift of paradise, plan to add spell pierce after rotation and I'm a little clueless with what can we patch up the sphinx
Meanwhile, my win rate is doing okay without them.
On the Sphinx, I have never played it and have still been able to beat Control. My main deck has only one win condition, my other wins come in later games.
Another option is Carnage Tyrant, not too bad.
I agree on testing Spell Pierce, but honestly it seems even better AGAINST us, along with Duress. I'm a bit worried, but I think we'll survive.
When do you bring in Drake Havens, and have they been any good?
Will post my updated list when I can.
"He traded sand for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand."
—Afari, Tales