If a problematic permanent gets through the typical wall of counter magic you have, Commit can take care of it. Albeit not indefinitely, but it should be enough for you to have an answer to it next time it comes down. A card that has over-performed has been Baral, Chief of Compliance. With such an abundance of permission, this card lets you filter a ton of draws. Oftentimes pitching a newly drawn land, which is welcomed because at least you aren't wasting a real draw step and you're diving past the fluff. That's not even mentioning the discount that you get on every card in the deck that's not a land or creature.
Another boon to this list is the nonbasic lands. The fact that they're actually islands is what I think makes this deck more viable than the past iterations of this particular control archetype. He doesn't provide a sideboard to this list, but in testing I've obviously created one. With these duals, it allows me to splash for "free" some pretty useful spells. Renewed Faith is a great inclusion that gives us more inevitability against the aggro decks. I also have given a slot to Forsake the Worldly which is a flexible tool to have against any troublesome enchantment or artifact. Since the white source count isn't that high, I feel it's wise to stay away from tempting double white spells like Fumigate.
Some points of observation:
- Censor isn't as bad as I originally thought. If the opponent sees it game one, most people will play around it for the remainder of the match. So shaving one or two post board (p/d dependent) hasn't been punishing.
- Baral, Chief of Compliance is insane. Casting Glimmer of Genius for 3 seems like cheating, and turning all your 3cmc counters into Failed Inspections is great for reasons I need not explain.
- Pull from Tomorrow is also obviously very good in this deck, helping you refuel and dig for answers. The non-bo with Torrential Gearhulk hasn't been an issue. You can pitch a Commit to cast the back end on your turn to recycle your graveyard and hand if you dont have any targets for Commit or just want to leave up more mana after you've cast it for its aftermath cost. The deck draws so many cards and loots so much that it hasn't been uncommon for me to discard an extra copy of it.
- Kefnet the Mindful is as good as one would assume. Not great, not horrible, just okay. It's a late game card that closes games quickly. You can use it's ability to bounce some cycle lands and cash them in for value, if you're into that sort of thing.
- While playtesting, I felt I almost wanted more Disallows instead of Void Shatters because cards that allow certain graveyard synergies to thrive, like Haunted Dead, circumvent typical countermagic. I found Disallow to be more relevant in the late game when all they're trying to do is bin and resurrect Haunted Deads, Prized Amalgams, Dread Wanderers, and Scrapheap Scroungers. This opinion might change once I test out adding black to the mana base and implement graveyard hate.
Thank you. And wall of text is fine when it explains as well as yours did. This is kinda what I was thinking when you said mono-U control, though exact numbers eluded me. I am interested in why the duals are included, but that could be for some side board techs. Overall I like the look and might give it a shot. Sphinx of the Final Word might like being in the side board, and maybe a copy or two of Drake Haven to take advantage of all the discard and cycling.
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
With a manabase like that, I can't imagine very many situations where Port Town would come into play tapped. Add 4 of those and you have 12 white sources... some number of Cast Out or Blessed Alliance could easily fit.
That's true, but it makes your Engulf the Shores worse. There's been plenty of times where if one of my lands were a non-island, a creature or two would stick. I don't think that's where I'd want to be with this style of deck.
So I'm thinking Essence Scatter is not that good for u/w. White has Immolating Glare, Blessed Alliance, Stasis Snare, and Cast Out, for instant speed removals, all of which can handle literally any creature in the format. Also, white as the only sweeper in the format that destroys all creatures. With all this, u/w really doesn't need an unconditional creature counter spell, as there are so many, essentially, unconditional creature removal spells. I'd rather have Negate, Censor, and Cancel as my counter spells, and rely on the white creature removal suite to deal with the resolved creatures.
Essence Scatter seems good when paired with red or black, with cards like Fatal Push, Grasp of Darkness, Magma Spray, and shock, all of which are super efficient at cleaning up the early threats, but are really bad when facing down gearhulks or giant angels, which is where essence scatter shines.
I disagree. In this day and age where creatures have ETB effects that replace themselves (rogue refiner, virtuoso, tireless tracker -which 99% of the time is played with a and in hand- cat blinking a permanent like oath of nissa, or the trials, etc) it is imperative to not let the creatures etb. Otherwise, every time you remove a creature that gave them value you loose a little bit of value yourself (i.e. you are not really trading 1-1, sometimes even 2-for-1ing yourself). Eventually that lost value adds up and they out grind you.
I think, in as sense, this is the crux of why standard is so bad. Developers scratch their head and say "what do you want, the removal is great, it can deal with everything". Well, not really, because if you have to spend a card to kill a cantrip creature, you really just cast a 2-1 on yourself... thats why countersspells need to be seriously pumped up in power (at least, if R&D wants to continue their quest for slapping more and more etb effects on already efficient creatures)
Okay, after a few matches of testing, I can say that drake haven is basically *****. It's a 3 mana enchantment that doesn't effect the board when it comes down, can't do anything on its' own, and the "payoff" of cycling cards isn't much of a payoff. You make 2/2 drakes and that's it.
I disagree. In this day and age where creatures have ETB effects that replace themselves (rogue refiner, virtuoso, tireless tracker -which 99% of the time is played with a and in hand- cat blinking a permanent like oath of nissa, or the trials, etc) it is imperative to not let the creatures etb. Otherwise, every time you remove a creature that gave them value you loose a little bit of value yourself (i.e. you are not really trading 1-1, sometimes even 2-for-1ing yourself). Eventually that lost value adds up and they out grind you.
Yeah, fair point. Especially a card like Virtuoso that is just so annoying to deal with when it resolves. It's actually a reason why I want a few Dampening Pulse in the side, because it shuts down combo and virtuoso, the main threats from combo.
And this circles around why censor is potentially game changing for control. If censor is the real deal, which I kind of suspect it is, draw-go control has a legitimate shot at being played in standard. The main reason is, the top 2 decks, vehicles and combo, have such a variety of threats it makes choosing counterspells really difficult. Vehicles is just as likely to slam an artifact, creature, or planeswalker down on any given turn, so both negate and scatter look good. Combo is the same deal, it's either planeswalkers or creatures on any given turn. Censor is the only 2 mana counterspell capable of dealing with these threats while on curve, and later in the game when opponent has the spare mana, hopefully you have some of the more unconditional counterspells.
I suppose I'm just not sure how many of negate and essence scatter I should main deck, and against something like vehicles, how many negates and scatter should I have.
The more I look at our options the more I believe that WB control is going to a real contender. As much as I like draw go control I think WB tap out will just be better
So I've been playing U(r) Control for the last while to decent success. https://deckbox.org/sets/1599823 You really have to know your matchups to win, and no, gearhulk should NOT be included. But I've been trying to update it for Amonkhet and I'm kinda all around unsure.
Commit//Memory can fill the awkward 4 drop counterspell slot, after trying out Insidious Will a lot. I had been planning on using Summary Dismissal since it exiles the Serpopard as well as Embalm/scrounger/graveyard cards with the added functions of Disallow, but Commit//Memory has a lot of versatility as well, and also deals with (to some degree) the Serpopard/Scrounger stuffs. Memory seems useless for me though.
Pull From Tomorrow would really pull me ahead card wise, if I have the mana, which could be an issue, but I think it might be better than Glimmer (especially without gearhulk) but I'm probably gonna test around with 2-2, 3-1, and 3-2 for a while.
Censor appears to be the real deal, but I'm a little suspicious of how well it helps filter the deck early. It's possible they can slot over a few Anticipates. At the VERY least, it's a straight upgrade to Revolutionary Rebuff. I started on 2 (because I wanted slots for Negate/Essence Scatter/Horribly Awry) but I'm pretty sure it should be at least 3, and I'll bump it up to 4 if I think I can drop an Anticipate for it.
Essence Scatter 'bout gave me a heart attack when they spoiled it. However, I don't think it's correct to even play 4 because I need Horribly Awry for exiling stuff. It's still good and makes it a lot easier to answer gearhulks.
As far as other adjustments these make to my deck, Censor and Scatter make me think I can probably go down to 22 lands again, but I'll need to test that. Sideboard could use Magma Spray over Incendiary Flow, but I think I'll want the extra 1 damage from flow. I'll be checking this while I play. Other than that, they open up options for the fourth Negate/Essence Scatter, and I might want some Summary Dismissal to help with Serpopard, which I guarantee will be all over my LGS. Lastly, By Force as an option for killing Artifacts would be handy since it's cheaper than Release the Gremlins (although still Sorcery speed) which is why I don't play Release. I don't really know what I'd drop though.
If a problematic permanent gets through the typical wall of counter magic you have, Commit can take care of it. Albeit not indefinitely, but it should be enough for you to have an answer to it next time it comes down. A card that has over-performed has been Baral, Chief of Compliance. With such an abundance of permission, this card lets you filter a ton of draws. Oftentimes pitching a newly drawn land, which is welcomed because at least you aren't wasting a real draw step and you're diving past the fluff. That's not even mentioning the discount that you get on every card in the deck that's not a land or creature.
Another boon to this list is the nonbasic lands. The fact that they're actually islands is what I think makes this deck more viable than the past iterations of this particular control archetype. He doesn't provide a sideboard to this list, but in testing I've obviously created one. With these duals, it allows me to splash for "free" some pretty useful spells. Renewed Faith is a great inclusion that gives us more inevitability against the aggro decks. I also have given a slot to Forsake the Worldly which is a flexible tool to have against any troublesome enchantment or artifact. Since the white source count isn't that high, I feel it's wise to stay away from tempting double white spells like Fumigate.
Some points of observation:
- Censor isn't as bad as I originally thought. If the opponent sees it game one, most people will play around it for the remainder of the match. So shaving one or two post board (p/d dependent) hasn't been punishing.
- Baral, Chief of Compliance is insane. Casting Glimmer of Genius for 3 seems like cheating, and turning all your 3cmc counters into Failed Inspections is great for reasons I need not explain.
- Pull from Tomorrow is also obviously very good in this deck, helping you refuel and dig for answers. The non-bo with Torrential Gearhulk hasn't been an issue. You can pitch a Commit to cast the back end on your turn to recycle your graveyard and hand if you dont have any targets for Commit or just want to leave up more mana after you've cast it for its aftermath cost. The deck draws so many cards and loots so much that it hasn't been uncommon for me to discard an extra copy of it.
- Kefnet the Mindful is as good as one would assume. Not great, not horrible, just okay. It's a late game card that closes games quickly. You can use it's ability to bounce some cycle lands and cash them in for value, if you're into that sort of thing.
- While playtesting, I felt I almost wanted more Disallows instead of Void Shatters because cards that allow certain graveyard synergies to thrive, like Haunted Dead, circumvent typical countermagic. I found Disallow to be more relevant in the late game when all they're trying to do is bin and resurrect Haunted Deads, Prized Amalgams, Dread Wanderers, and Scrapheap Scroungers. This opinion might change once I test out adding black to the mana base and implement graveyard hate.
I apologize for the Great Wall of Text.
I do like a go bit of your (Chapin's?) decklist (especially the Mono U Part :)), but I also want to point out the deckbuilding differences between ours. Mine is counterspell based and runs fewer lands while using Baral as a crutch, with less card draw (seriously, 7 looks like too much) and no "removal"/threats in Engulf/Gearhulk. Instead, I'm using Tower as both. Since I'm not running top end cards, I can afford to drop a lot of lands. Your thoughts on Commit//Memory make me want to play it though, and I confirm your experiences with Baral.
The other two big things are lands and the splash. Your base needs islands for Engulf, while I wanted creaturelands for dealing with opposing creature(land)s. You are in white for the basic subtype duals where I'm in Ur for manlands and more sideboard stuff. ie, Kozi's Return which does a lot of stuff like Engulf without removing Baral.
Essentially, my deck doesn't deal with stuff once it hits the field very well, although lategame Tower/Fumarole get the job done, and adding Commit would help with that more. My question for you is how you're dealing with Serpopard. In a competitive environment, I expect very little, but if you use something like this at an LGS regularly they'll probably adapt to hate you.
Personally love the idea of playing a UW control deck moving more away from gearhulk and more towards glyph keeper as a wincon. Not to say run 0 gearhulk, since it's a huge value engine. But with a large amount of enchantment based removal, gearhulk gets worse. And glyph keeper is not only more resilant a threat, it's also evasive.
Seven draw spells may look like a lot, but there's a reason to play a relative high number of them. You want to see them often and in your opener if possible, obviously. Pull from Tomorrow is a card you don't want to see too frequently, though. It's a card I'd rather play for 4 or more as a payoff/refuel card and not as a worse Glimmer of Genius. The snake leopard isn't really on my radar or a concern. As you said, a card like that is less likely to bleed in the meta in larger tournaments or online unless control is a real tier 1 contender. If they do play it, it typically won't be game one. If you suspect they have it post board, you can always Engulf the Shore it/the team, or just flash in Torrential Gearhulk and block to remedy that problem. Then it's business as usual. This scenario is possible games one, two, and if you're unlucky, game three. Winning game one in a quick fashion is almost unimaginable. So worst case, you win game one and just have to not die game two. I play some number of Dynavolt Towers in the side, they're less for attacking their life total and more for board control. In the end, we all build sideboards to sure-up matchups or make a bad matchups better. So just do that if you're worried about Prowling Serpopard.
I personally am not a fan of playing a control deck with that few of lands like you play (22? seems blasphemous). I feel if I didn't have bad luck, I'd have no luck at all. I always assume I'll get mana-screwed, so relying on Anticipates and Censors to reliably hit your land drops is not a route I'd consciously take. The dilemma with playing so few lands is that you'll have all this permission in your hand and you won't be able to deploy it. We need to get to a point where we can play two spells a turn. But if you have to Anticipate or cycle Censor just to try to keep up, it's possible you end up succumbing to those one or two creatures that snuck through while you were trying to stay on par with your opponent. The choice of digging for lands or countering a spell when you're already being pressured is sometimes a hard one. It's a bad feeling when you get knowingly baited, but have to counter whatever they play because you can't afford the clock increase or have very few outs to that spell once it resolves (at least in hand), all while missing land drops. If you've ever died to a Thraben Inspector you know what I'm talking about.
Also , the inclusion of manlands in your list just makes me even more skeptical about playing a low land count like you have. I'd want to be able to animate and kill/counter something. I just don't see how often you'd be able to do something like that reliably. Just my thoughts.
Personally, I think flash creatures are the solution. Rather than tapping out for a hexproof flyer, I'd rather flash in my win cons EOT, hope the opponent doesn't have instant speed, unconditional removal (so basically either Unlicensed Disintegration or Natural Obsolescence), and then hopefully untap and be able to keep counter magic mana up and actually counter any removal. I'm currently on a pure draw-go style list, with 4 Gearhulks, 3 Spell Quellers, and no sweepers, so every spell is instant speed, and it's been pretty awesome.
If you want to tap out for a hard to deal with threat, then I think Gideon of the Trials is the answer. He can pressure opposing planeswalkers, put a decent clock on the opponent, not die to and keep at bay something like Heart of Kiran, and only costs 3cmc. He's the control Gideon walker, and looks a lot better than something like Haven or Glyph Keeper.
EDIT
Also, if we're looking for some alternate, not creature win cons, then I think the answer is to go black and try and win with Cruel Reality
Seven draw spells may look like a lot, but there's a reason to play a relative high number of them. You want to see them often and in your opener if possible, obviously. Pull from Tomorrow is a card you don't want to see too frequently, though. It's a card I'd rather play for 4 or more as a payoff/refuel card and not as a worse Glimmer of Genius. The snake leopard isn't really on my radar or a concern. As you said, a card like that is less likely to bleed in the meta in larger tournaments or online unless control is a real tier 1 contender. If they do play it, it typically won't be game one. If you suspect they have it post board, you can always Engulf the Shore it/the team, or just flash in Torrential Gearhulk and block to remedy that problem. Then it's business as usual. This scenario is possible games one, two, and if you're unlucky, game three. Winning game one in a quick fashion is almost unimaginable. So worst case, you win game one and just have to not die game two. I play some number of Dynavolt Towers in the side, they're less for attacking their life total and more for board control. In the end, we all build sideboards to sure-up matchups or make a bad matchups better. So just do that if you're worried about Prowling Serpopard.
I personally am not a fan of playing a control deck with that few of lands like you play (22? seems blasphemous). I feel if I didn't have bad luck, I'd have no luck at all. I always assume I'll get mana-screwed, so relying on Anticipates and Censors to reliably hit your land drops is not a route I'd consciously take. The dilemma with playing so few lands is that you'll have all this permission in your hand and you won't be able to deploy it. We need to get to a point where we can play two spells a turn. But if you have to Anticipate or cycle Censor just to try to keep up, it's possible you end up succumbing to those one or two creatures that snuck through while you were trying to stay on par with your opponent. The choice of digging for lands or countering a spell when you're already being pressured is sometimes a hard one. It's a bad feeling when you get knowingly baited, but have to counter whatever they play because you can't afford the clock increase or have very few outs to that spell once it resolves (at least in hand), all while missing land drops. If you've ever died to a Thraben Inspector you know what I'm talking about.
Also , the inclusion of manlands in your list just makes me even more skeptical about playing a low land count like you have. I'd want to be able to animate and kill/counter something. I just don't see how often you'd be able to do something like that reliably. Just my thoughts.
22 lands has mostly worked, and no, having Anticipate and Censor are in every control deck and they give the OPTION of trying to dig for lands. I rarely used Anticipate for such, and when it was worth it, it was the correct play. I run enough 2 mana counters to hold out on two lands for an opening. If I try to up the land count I end up flooding out since I don't have much board control or 2 for 1s. It's possible that Also, definitely died to Thraben Inspector. Dude dropped 4 of them and I couldn't find any of my Kozilek's Returns or Towers. (EDIT: My highest win rates with the AER version were against 4c Saheeli, Temur Tower, and Mardu Vehicles, whereas against rogue decks I mostly lost, excluding Fog and Mono White Servos)
And remember, I don't need as many lands as you. I can operate on 2-3 lands for a while. Manlands are generally a lategame play for both sides and have been very useful.
However, I'm going to say, I just went 0-4 on untap.in. I'm also going to say that's the most losses in a row I've ever achieved. One deck was on the 4/3 for 1R, etb discard as well as piles of flash creatures, all of which are quite good against me, another was Temur Tower where things didn't quite line up and they went into a completely creature based aggro deck for g2 (I talked to the guy, it was a complete transformation, 15 in 15 out, kinda cool tbh, and both games were very close), another R/G flash deck with the same creature although I lost game 1 to it and game 2 to a resolved Hazoret. Played against WB Lifegain where I lost game 1 to a flipped Lone Rider + Manland with an Always Watching out (drew the Tower a turn late), and they resolved two gideons and an Always Watching game 2 since I couldn't pull ahead on cards. Made all them land drops at least.
Things I learned from this:
-Graveyard shenanigans are a pain (I had used a lot of resources in every game to NOT die to Embalm/Scrounger/etc.)
-Instant Speed decks are a pain and they're more popular than they used to be (every deck I faced had a significant instant speed portion)
-Pull from Tomorrow doesn't work (similarly to gearhulk) with only 22 lands
-I need to hit all my land drops for the first and still have counters against flash/instant decks, and preferably have Baral out since flash means they can just double spell me on my turn so I need the mana
-Increasing the number of conditional counters in the deck makes topdecking more awkward but also makes Anticipate better.
-Commit//Memory would have save my bacon a few times. Definitely going to add some.
In conclusion, this deck doesn't work as well where this format is headed atm compared to AER standard. I may switch to a deck like that if things keep looking like this.
EDIT: Result: I'm dropping 1 Pull from Tomorrow, two Essence Scatters, and the Summary Dismissal for 1 Island, 1 Glimmer of Genius, and 2 Commit//Memory. I'm not sure how much this will help, but I guess we'll see.
EDIT EDIT: Played another match, beat GW Tokens (with Embalm) 2-0. His/her deck wasn't that great on the edges, but it did have plenty of good cards, as well as embalm (just not the good embalm cards). I was worried I'd lose game 2 to his Westvale Abbey + Anointed Procession but won anyways via disallowing the flip trigger (he should have just been making tokens). Eventually got him with Towers. The changes felt pretty good that game. I definitely don't want to see more than 1 Pull from Tomorrow, but it's good enough I'll probably be leaving at 1 like Confirm Suspicions. I might add the 4th Glimmer though. More testing will be done later.
Personally, I think flash creatures are the solution. Rather than tapping out for a hexproof flyer, I'd rather flash in my win cons EOT, hope the opponent doesn't have instant speed, unconditional removal (so basically either Unlicensed Disintegration or Natural Obsolescence), and then hopefully untap and be able to keep counter magic mana up and actually counter any removal. I'm currently on a pure draw-go style list, with 4 Gearhulks, 3 Spell Quellers, and no sweepers, so every spell is instant speed, and it's been pretty awesome.
If you want to tap out for a hard to deal with threat, then I think Gideon of the Trials is the answer. He can pressure opposing planeswalkers, put a decent clock on the opponent, not die to and keep at bay something like Heart of Kiran, and only costs 3cmc. He's the control Gideon walker, and looks a lot better than something like Haven or Glyph Keeper.
EDIT
Also, if we're looking for some alternate, not creature win cons, then I think the answer is to go black and try and win with Cruel Reality
I wouldn't tap out for a big flier, I'd play it turn 9+ to hold to hold up counter/kill spell. Not in too big a hurry. Though I'm not playing any big end game stuff in my current list. Just Gearhulks and new Gideon cause I agree that he seems like a solid card for control. My list should be near the bottom of page one.
On another note, I want to start testing this bw list. It started out at 46 spells and was thinned down to a 61 card deck. I welcome suggestions because this is a first draft.
I've heard that it's legal for you to cast the memory side of commit//memory when you flash it back with gearhulk. EOT timetwister seems totally insane if that's actually legal...
You can cast the sorcery side of Commit with the Torrential Gearhulk flashback trigger. I don't think it's only for super fast decks or combo decks. If anything, I'd feel it's almost exclusively for grindy control decks. If a control deck has many pieces of permission, than being able to recycle all your counters is huge. The backside of Commit being cast and having so many lands that you have 4+ mana open afterwards puts the control player pretty far ahead. Most of the time you should hit a land drop every turn, your opponent most likely won't (archetype dependent) and they'll be bottle-necked on what they can play. You can just shoot down every spell you care about after that.
A Torrential Gearhulk will eventually come down and they'll have less resources to work with than you. They'll have to start moving into chump block mode after taking 10 or so, and the game is pretty academic at that point.
In my opinion Mardu is the best control deck in the new format. You have several boardwipes, 1 for 1 removal, many walkers.
U is playable only if there are instaspeed reanimator, storm or big spell decks that need countering. I don't know such thing in Standard.
There is no card draw engine for the Mardu colors. The only standard playable spell for card draw is Painful Truths, and after playing with this card a lot, it really is a sub optimal option for card draw, at least in standard (In some older formats its pretty good). Also, the tap out control with sweepers and planeswalkers just looses to combo, and lines up very badly against vehicles, which are still the top 2 kings of standard.
One of the big reasons B/W control was able to do so well a few standard seasons ago was Read the Bones, which really only made the cut because of the scry 2, and why it's a step above something like Succumb to Temptation which is just not standard playable. The other main reason B/W did as well as it did was because the main aggro deck in the format, mono white humans, would simply be devastated by Languish, which was a guaranteed board clear.
I'm of the opinions that sweepers are generally week to vehicles, which is a deck full of artifacts, planeswalkers, and recursive creatures. When the opponent has a board of Thraben Inspector, Scrapheap Scrounger, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Heart of Kiran, spells like Fumigate and the new Sweltering Suns do absolutely nothing, it puts you down a card while not touching the 2 biggest threats which are swinging for 9 next turn while your're tapped out.
If the format changes to something with bigger mid range decks then I could see a Mardu planeswalker control list doing well, but not when vehicles and combo are the 2 best decks out there.
I'd firstly not play 8 Yahenni's Expertise, truthfully I might play only 2 in the entire 75. I also wouldn't want to play any creatures that die to the aforementioned expertise. Playing Vizier of Deferment seems like a liability due to the fact it's a temporary fix to a permanent problem, not to mention the how poorly it lines up against sweepers. Final Reward is an expensive removal spell that doesn't make much sense to have when there's so many other premium removal spells in the format. I do understand that it exiles and it is sometimes relevant, but the mana cost makes it slow and pseudo unplayable for what it does. I think you'd probably want to play a full set of Shambling Vents too. The card is good for pressuring walkers and stabilizing.
I do like Regal Caracal though; I think the card is nuts and it'll see more play than people currently think. Oath of Liliana is an expensive Trial of Ambition with an upside. I can only expect that the format will be aggressive for the first few weeks as usual, and the oath may be too slow. It's possible that Succumb to Temptation may just be better than Painful Lesson. I know it's more strenuous on your manabase, and there'll be times where you wish you had the sorcery speed draw spell to kill your opponent. Even though the chances of that scenario coming up are greater than zero, I'd bet that telling your buddies the story about how you killed your opponent in the fashion won't be very often. This I see is a more tappout style control deck, but I think it'd be more beneficial to do as many things you can do on your opponents end step. That way you can leave mana up for removal and don't have to choose between drawing cards or playing a walker on your turn.
You can cast the sorcery side of Commit with the Torrential Gearhulk flashback trigger. I don't think it's only for super fast decks or combo decks. If anything, I'd feel it's almost exclusively for grindy control decks. If a control deck has many pieces of permission, than being able to recycle all your counters is huge. The backside of Commit being cast and having so many lands that you have 4+ mana open afterwards puts the control player pretty far ahead. Most of the time you should hit a land drop every turn, your opponent most likely won't (archetype dependent) and they'll be bottle-necked on what they can play. You can just shoot down every spell you care about after that.
A Torrential Gearhulk will eventually come down and they'll have less resources to work with than you. They'll have to start moving into chump block mode after taking 10 or so, and the game is pretty academic at that point.
Exactly. Anytime you're ahead on permanents, Timetwister is value and as a control deck, you'll often be ahead on permanents right after casting a sweeper of some kind.
To clarify: you can cast the sorcery side of Commit with gearhulk at opponent's EOT, right? If you can do that right after an Engulf the Shores, I think that should close out most games.
I think you are right about 8 yahenni's expertise being too many so I cut the second set of 4. I may still have too many but it's my best way to deal with aggressive starts or token decks. And I should always have something relevant to cast off it
I'm not sold on vizier, but stalling a threat with her ability and sticking around to block it the next turn seems worth testing. Maybe it will stall the turns I need to draw an answer, maybe it's a wasted spot and I'll cut it.
You make a good point for succumb, with only two colors the double black probably won't be a problem. And I have sign in blooded for the win exactly one time in all the time it was in standard lol
I like that oath can make blockers, but I originally had a split between it and trial and if it's too slow I'll swap them. I also thought it would be fun to have one copy of the black cartouche because lifelink and resetting the trial, but it's probably too cute.
I try to minimize my etbt lands but I suspect you are right about a 4ty vents and will add it.
Final reward is my one peace of instant speed, unconditional removal. I could play a singleton murder in its place but I think the exiling will be worth the extra mana. Once again, time and testing will tell.
Thanks for the input, I will definitely be adding succumb and anither vent. And will be keeping a close eye on your other suggestions during testing
3x Torrential Gearhulk
3x Baral, Chief of Compliance
1x Kefnet the Mindful
Land
18x Island
4x Irrigated Farmland
4x Prairie Stream
3x Censor
3x Commit
1x Confirm Suspicions
1x Disallow
3x Engulf the Shore
3x Essence Scatter
4x Glimmer of Genius
4x Negate
3x Pull from Tomorrow
2x Void Shatter
If a problematic permanent gets through the typical wall of counter magic you have, Commit can take care of it. Albeit not indefinitely, but it should be enough for you to have an answer to it next time it comes down. A card that has over-performed has been Baral, Chief of Compliance. With such an abundance of permission, this card lets you filter a ton of draws. Oftentimes pitching a newly drawn land, which is welcomed because at least you aren't wasting a real draw step and you're diving past the fluff. That's not even mentioning the discount that you get on every card in the deck that's not a land or creature.
Another boon to this list is the nonbasic lands. The fact that they're actually islands is what I think makes this deck more viable than the past iterations of this particular control archetype. He doesn't provide a sideboard to this list, but in testing I've obviously created one. With these duals, it allows me to splash for "free" some pretty useful spells. Renewed Faith is a great inclusion that gives us more inevitability against the aggro decks. I also have given a slot to Forsake the Worldly which is a flexible tool to have against any troublesome enchantment or artifact. Since the white source count isn't that high, I feel it's wise to stay away from tempting double white spells like Fumigate.
With zombies and delirium/reanimator lists running around, I think we can stretch the mana even a little further. By possibly taking out some basics to make room for some Sunken Hollows and Fetid Pools, and possibly trimming one or two Irrigated Farmland. By doing so, I think being able to have the access to some graveyard interaction like Scarab Feast could be helpful against creatures like Haunted Dead, Prized Amalgam, Dread Wanderer, and Relentless Dead as well as any targets for Torrential Gearhulk.
Some points of observation:
- Censor isn't as bad as I originally thought. If the opponent sees it game one, most people will play around it for the remainder of the match. So shaving one or two post board (p/d dependent) hasn't been punishing.
- Baral, Chief of Compliance is insane. Casting Glimmer of Genius for 3 seems like cheating, and turning all your 3cmc counters into Failed Inspections is great for reasons I need not explain.
- Pull from Tomorrow is also obviously very good in this deck, helping you refuel and dig for answers. The non-bo with Torrential Gearhulk hasn't been an issue. You can pitch a Commit to cast the back end on your turn to recycle your graveyard and hand if you dont have any targets for Commit or just want to leave up more mana after you've cast it for its aftermath cost. The deck draws so many cards and loots so much that it hasn't been uncommon for me to discard an extra copy of it.
- Kefnet the Mindful is as good as one would assume. Not great, not horrible, just okay. It's a late game card that closes games quickly. You can use it's ability to bounce some cycle lands and cash them in for value, if you're into that sort of thing.
- While playtesting, I felt I almost wanted more Disallows instead of Void Shatters because cards that allow certain graveyard synergies to thrive, like Haunted Dead, circumvent typical countermagic. I found Disallow to be more relevant in the late game when all they're trying to do is bin and resurrect Haunted Deads, Prized Amalgams, Dread Wanderers, and Scrapheap Scroungers. This opinion might change once I test out adding black to the mana base and implement graveyard hate.
I apologize for the Great Wall of Text.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Essence Scatter seems good when paired with red or black, with cards like Fatal Push, Grasp of Darkness, Magma Spray, and shock, all of which are super efficient at cleaning up the early threats, but are really bad when facing down gearhulks or giant angels, which is where essence scatter shines.
I disagree. In this day and age where creatures have ETB effects that replace themselves (rogue refiner, virtuoso, tireless tracker -which 99% of the time is played with a and in hand- cat blinking a permanent like oath of nissa, or the trials, etc) it is imperative to not let the creatures etb. Otherwise, every time you remove a creature that gave them value you loose a little bit of value yourself (i.e. you are not really trading 1-1, sometimes even 2-for-1ing yourself). Eventually that lost value adds up and they out grind you.
I think, in as sense, this is the crux of why standard is so bad. Developers scratch their head and say "what do you want, the removal is great, it can deal with everything". Well, not really, because if you have to spend a card to kill a cantrip creature, you really just cast a 2-1 on yourself... thats why countersspells need to be seriously pumped up in power (at least, if R&D wants to continue their quest for slapping more and more etb effects on already efficient creatures)
Yeah, fair point. Especially a card like Virtuoso that is just so annoying to deal with when it resolves. It's actually a reason why I want a few Dampening Pulse in the side, because it shuts down combo and virtuoso, the main threats from combo.
And this circles around why censor is potentially game changing for control. If censor is the real deal, which I kind of suspect it is, draw-go control has a legitimate shot at being played in standard. The main reason is, the top 2 decks, vehicles and combo, have such a variety of threats it makes choosing counterspells really difficult. Vehicles is just as likely to slam an artifact, creature, or planeswalker down on any given turn, so both negate and scatter look good. Combo is the same deal, it's either planeswalkers or creatures on any given turn. Censor is the only 2 mana counterspell capable of dealing with these threats while on curve, and later in the game when opponent has the spare mana, hopefully you have some of the more unconditional counterspells.
I suppose I'm just not sure how many of negate and essence scatter I should main deck, and against something like vehicles, how many negates and scatter should I have.
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
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Commit//Memory can fill the awkward 4 drop counterspell slot, after trying out Insidious Will a lot. I had been planning on using Summary Dismissal since it exiles the Serpopard as well as Embalm/scrounger/graveyard cards with the added functions of Disallow, but Commit//Memory has a lot of versatility as well, and also deals with (to some degree) the Serpopard/Scrounger stuffs. Memory seems useless for me though.
Pull From Tomorrow would really pull me ahead card wise, if I have the mana, which could be an issue, but I think it might be better than Glimmer (especially without gearhulk) but I'm probably gonna test around with 2-2, 3-1, and 3-2 for a while.
Censor appears to be the real deal, but I'm a little suspicious of how well it helps filter the deck early. It's possible they can slot over a few Anticipates. At the VERY least, it's a straight upgrade to Revolutionary Rebuff. I started on 2 (because I wanted slots for Negate/Essence Scatter/Horribly Awry) but I'm pretty sure it should be at least 3, and I'll bump it up to 4 if I think I can drop an Anticipate for it.
Essence Scatter 'bout gave me a heart attack when they spoiled it. However, I don't think it's correct to even play 4 because I need Horribly Awry for exiling stuff. It's still good and makes it a lot easier to answer gearhulks.
As far as other adjustments these make to my deck, Censor and Scatter make me think I can probably go down to 22 lands again, but I'll need to test that. Sideboard could use Magma Spray over Incendiary Flow, but I think I'll want the extra 1 damage from flow. I'll be checking this while I play. Other than that, they open up options for the fourth Negate/Essence Scatter, and I might want some Summary Dismissal to help with Serpopard, which I guarantee will be all over my LGS. Lastly, By Force as an option for killing Artifacts would be handy since it's cheaper than Release the Gremlins (although still Sorcery speed) which is why I don't play Release. I don't really know what I'd drop though.
So, AKH Decklist: https://deckbox.org/sets/1680519
I do like a go bit of your (Chapin's?) decklist (especially the Mono U Part :)), but I also want to point out the deckbuilding differences between ours. Mine is counterspell based and runs fewer lands while using Baral as a crutch, with less card draw (seriously, 7 looks like too much) and no "removal"/threats in Engulf/Gearhulk. Instead, I'm using Tower as both. Since I'm not running top end cards, I can afford to drop a lot of lands. Your thoughts on Commit//Memory make me want to play it though, and I confirm your experiences with Baral.
The other two big things are lands and the splash. Your base needs islands for Engulf, while I wanted creaturelands for dealing with opposing creature(land)s. You are in white for the basic subtype duals where I'm in Ur for manlands and more sideboard stuff. ie, Kozi's Return which does a lot of stuff like Engulf without removing Baral.
Essentially, my deck doesn't deal with stuff once it hits the field very well, although lategame Tower/Fumarole get the job done, and adding Commit would help with that more. My question for you is how you're dealing with Serpopard. In a competitive environment, I expect very little, but if you use something like this at an LGS regularly they'll probably adapt to hate you.
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
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I personally am not a fan of playing a control deck with that few of lands like you play (22? seems blasphemous). I feel if I didn't have bad luck, I'd have no luck at all. I always assume I'll get mana-screwed, so relying on Anticipates and Censors to reliably hit your land drops is not a route I'd consciously take. The dilemma with playing so few lands is that you'll have all this permission in your hand and you won't be able to deploy it. We need to get to a point where we can play two spells a turn. But if you have to Anticipate or cycle Censor just to try to keep up, it's possible you end up succumbing to those one or two creatures that snuck through while you were trying to stay on par with your opponent. The choice of digging for lands or countering a spell when you're already being pressured is sometimes a hard one. It's a bad feeling when you get knowingly baited, but have to counter whatever they play because you can't afford the clock increase or have very few outs to that spell once it resolves (at least in hand), all while missing land drops. If you've ever died to a Thraben Inspector you know what I'm talking about.
Also , the inclusion of manlands in your list just makes me even more skeptical about playing a low land count like you have. I'd want to be able to animate and kill/counter something. I just don't see how often you'd be able to do something like that reliably. Just my thoughts.
If you want to tap out for a hard to deal with threat, then I think Gideon of the Trials is the answer. He can pressure opposing planeswalkers, put a decent clock on the opponent, not die to and keep at bay something like Heart of Kiran, and only costs 3cmc. He's the control Gideon walker, and looks a lot better than something like Haven or Glyph Keeper.
EDIT
Also, if we're looking for some alternate, not creature win cons, then I think the answer is to go black and try and win with Cruel Reality
22 lands has mostly worked, and no, having Anticipate and Censor are in every control deck and they give the OPTION of trying to dig for lands. I rarely used Anticipate for such, and when it was worth it, it was the correct play. I run enough 2 mana counters to hold out on two lands for an opening. If I try to up the land count I end up flooding out since I don't have much board control or 2 for 1s. It's possible that Also, definitely died to Thraben Inspector. Dude dropped 4 of them and I couldn't find any of my Kozilek's Returns or Towers. (EDIT: My highest win rates with the AER version were against 4c Saheeli, Temur Tower, and Mardu Vehicles, whereas against rogue decks I mostly lost, excluding Fog and Mono White Servos)
And remember, I don't need as many lands as you. I can operate on 2-3 lands for a while. Manlands are generally a lategame play for both sides and have been very useful.
However, I'm going to say, I just went 0-4 on untap.in. I'm also going to say that's the most losses in a row I've ever achieved. One deck was on the 4/3 for 1R, etb discard as well as piles of flash creatures, all of which are quite good against me, another was Temur Tower where things didn't quite line up and they went into a completely creature based aggro deck for g2 (I talked to the guy, it was a complete transformation, 15 in 15 out, kinda cool tbh, and both games were very close), another R/G flash deck with the same creature although I lost game 1 to it and game 2 to a resolved Hazoret. Played against WB Lifegain where I lost game 1 to a flipped Lone Rider + Manland with an Always Watching out (drew the Tower a turn late), and they resolved two gideons and an Always Watching game 2 since I couldn't pull ahead on cards. Made all them land drops at least.
Things I learned from this:
-Graveyard shenanigans are a pain (I had used a lot of resources in every game to NOT die to Embalm/Scrounger/etc.)
-Instant Speed decks are a pain and they're more popular than they used to be (every deck I faced had a significant instant speed portion)
-Pull from Tomorrow doesn't work (similarly to gearhulk) with only 22 lands
-I need to hit all my land drops for the first and still have counters against flash/instant decks, and preferably have Baral out since flash means they can just double spell me on my turn so I need the mana
-Increasing the number of conditional counters in the deck makes topdecking more awkward but also makes Anticipate better.
-Commit//Memory would have save my bacon a few times. Definitely going to add some.
In conclusion, this deck doesn't work as well where this format is headed atm compared to AER standard. I may switch to a deck like that if things keep looking like this.
EDIT: Result: I'm dropping 1 Pull from Tomorrow, two Essence Scatters, and the Summary Dismissal for 1 Island, 1 Glimmer of Genius, and 2 Commit//Memory. I'm not sure how much this will help, but I guess we'll see.
EDIT EDIT: Played another match, beat GW Tokens (with Embalm) 2-0. His/her deck wasn't that great on the edges, but it did have plenty of good cards, as well as embalm (just not the good embalm cards). I was worried I'd lose game 2 to his Westvale Abbey + Anointed Procession but won anyways via disallowing the flip trigger (he should have just been making tokens). Eventually got him with Towers. The changes felt pretty good that game. I definitely don't want to see more than 1 Pull from Tomorrow, but it's good enough I'll probably be leaving at 1 like Confirm Suspicions. I might add the 4th Glimmer though. More testing will be done later.
I wouldn't tap out for a big flier, I'd play it turn 9+ to hold to hold up counter/kill spell. Not in too big a hurry. Though I'm not playing any big end game stuff in my current list. Just Gearhulks and new Gideon cause I agree that he seems like a solid card for control. My list should be near the bottom of page one.
On another note, I want to start testing this bw list. It started out at 46 spells and was thinned down to a 61 card deck. I welcome suggestions because this is a first draft.
3 vzier if determent
2 regal caracal
2 angel of sanctions
planeswalkers:
3 Gideon of the trials
1 sorin grim nemesis
2 Liliana the last hope
enchantments:
3 cast out
3 oath if Liliana
3 painful lesson
1 never
2 fumigate
4 yahenni's expertise
1 sram's expertise
instants:
1 final reward
2 to the slaughter
1 anguished unmaking
2 fatal push
2 grasp of darkness
3 concealed courtyard
3 shambling vent
10 swamp
9 plains
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
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A Torrential Gearhulk will eventually come down and they'll have less resources to work with than you. They'll have to start moving into chump block mode after taking 10 or so, and the game is pretty academic at that point.
There is no card draw engine for the Mardu colors. The only standard playable spell for card draw is Painful Truths, and after playing with this card a lot, it really is a sub optimal option for card draw, at least in standard (In some older formats its pretty good). Also, the tap out control with sweepers and planeswalkers just looses to combo, and lines up very badly against vehicles, which are still the top 2 kings of standard.
One of the big reasons B/W control was able to do so well a few standard seasons ago was Read the Bones, which really only made the cut because of the scry 2, and why it's a step above something like Succumb to Temptation which is just not standard playable. The other main reason B/W did as well as it did was because the main aggro deck in the format, mono white humans, would simply be devastated by Languish, which was a guaranteed board clear.
I'm of the opinions that sweepers are generally week to vehicles, which is a deck full of artifacts, planeswalkers, and recursive creatures. When the opponent has a board of Thraben Inspector, Scrapheap Scrounger, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Heart of Kiran, spells like Fumigate and the new Sweltering Suns do absolutely nothing, it puts you down a card while not touching the 2 biggest threats which are swinging for 9 next turn while your're tapped out.
If the format changes to something with bigger mid range decks then I could see a Mardu planeswalker control list doing well, but not when vehicles and combo are the 2 best decks out there.
I do like Regal Caracal though; I think the card is nuts and it'll see more play than people currently think. Oath of Liliana is an expensive Trial of Ambition with an upside. I can only expect that the format will be aggressive for the first few weeks as usual, and the oath may be too slow. It's possible that Succumb to Temptation may just be better than Painful Lesson. I know it's more strenuous on your manabase, and there'll be times where you wish you had the sorcery speed draw spell to kill your opponent. Even though the chances of that scenario coming up are greater than zero, I'd bet that telling your buddies the story about how you killed your opponent in the fashion won't be very often. This I see is a more tappout style control deck, but I think it'd be more beneficial to do as many things you can do on your opponents end step. That way you can leave mana up for removal and don't have to choose between drawing cards or playing a walker on your turn.
Exactly. Anytime you're ahead on permanents, Timetwister is value and as a control deck, you'll often be ahead on permanents right after casting a sweeper of some kind.
To clarify: you can cast the sorcery side of Commit with gearhulk at opponent's EOT, right? If you can do that right after an Engulf the Shores, I think that should close out most games.
I'm not sold on vizier, but stalling a threat with her ability and sticking around to block it the next turn seems worth testing. Maybe it will stall the turns I need to draw an answer, maybe it's a wasted spot and I'll cut it.
You make a good point for succumb, with only two colors the double black probably won't be a problem. And I have sign in blooded for the win exactly one time in all the time it was in standard lol
I like that oath can make blockers, but I originally had a split between it and trial and if it's too slow I'll swap them. I also thought it would be fun to have one copy of the black cartouche because lifelink and resetting the trial, but it's probably too cute.
I try to minimize my etbt lands but I suspect you are right about a 4ty vents and will add it.
Final reward is my one peace of instant speed, unconditional removal. I could play a singleton murder in its place but I think the exiling will be worth the extra mana. Once again, time and testing will tell.
Thanks for the input, I will definitely be adding succumb and anither vent. And will be keeping a close eye on your other suggestions during testing
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
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Charlotte/Greensboro area, NC
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