As many people have stated... threats have become so much better than the meager answers that are afforded to us. And FINALLY, WotC has acknowledged this:
"The pendulum of threats versus answers has swung too far toward the threats, and that has caused problems with our metagame. Our decision to not print enough answer cards also has shown to be a real problem."
Thank christ that they've come to this realization. You have to have a balance for healthy gameplay. When your threats are resilient, generate five for ones, or otherwise relegate answer cards to tier 3 status... that's a problem. Each avenue to play the game needs to be equally represented. Due to the adoption of a State of Standard thread that includes this subject matter, this thread is locked. -hoser2
They admit the problem, but what they are going to do about it is the real question. Fatal Push is an extremely good answer card, but it's not back breakingly amazing in standard like it is in the older formats. They need to bring back two mana ramp spells and four mana wraths. They tried not doing it and it's just not working.
Also, freaking cantrips. Green's draw is literally better than blue's. No wonder thay get samey midrange slugfest interspersed with T4 combo: even if there were good counterspells, there's no blue decks that want 'em. Even Grixis Control basically had to play Glimmer of Genius and Painful Truths for card draw; green gets Oath of Nissa, Tireless Tracker, and Duskwatch Recruiter. I mean, when a midrange deck can outdraw control decks, why bother with anything else? (And let's not even talk about Collected Company. Awesome card, and great even for Standard... if there were good counterspells and there weren't Reflector Mage and all the other ones I mentioned.)
Also, graveyard hate. I know SOI was meant to be the graveyard block, but did we really need to have a total zero answers?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Also, freaking cantrips. Green's draw is literally better than blue's. No wonder thay get samey midrange slugfest interspersed with T4 combo: even if there were good counterspells, there's no blue decks that want 'em. Even Grixis Control basically had to play Glimmer of Genius and Painful Truths for card draw; green gets Oath of Nissa, Tireless Tracker, and Duskwatch Recruiter. I mean, when a midrange deck can outdraw control decks, why bother with anything else? (And let's not even talk about Collected Company. Awesome card, and great even for Standard... if there were good counterspells and there weren't Reflector Mage and all the other ones I mentioned.)
Also, graveyard hate. I know SOI was meant to be the graveyard block, but did we really need to have a total zero answers?
I don't have the link right now but Sam Stoddard already admitted the problem with the */*+1 problem and that they were going to work to avoid those (as commonly) onwards, and I think to a certain degree we have seen them starting to fix that with kaladesh and aether revolt abundance of *+1/1 creatures. Also Maro acknwoledge that blue needs better draw (and that glimmer wasn't ideal) just after the kaladesh pro tour and pointed that the next set would have better efforts in that department.
I think Emraukl got banned because they don't have any graveyard hate in the next blocks, so it was easier (and healthier) to just ban it than slipping Tormod's crypt somewhere and risk breaking standard again.
Unrelated, but MTGS_User8233: you get a trillion cool points for having Reparations flavor text in your signature. That's my favorite of all time
Also has to be said that it's incredibly appropriate for this particular discussion Wish we could give him cookie points.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
I've been out of constructed (cube only) since sometime around Shards block when they started the whole NWO thing and the powering-down of Magic (e.g. weaker burn, slower removal, weak counterspells, etc). I didn't like the decisions then and haven't played since. I've watch Wizards whiff again and again and again and I think it's because of the aforementioned paradigm shift. To see them admitting mistakes (seemingly frequently) leads me to believe these changes were, in fact, poorly planned and executed. I'm glad to see them acknowledging the problems of their near decade-long ***** fest and I'm excited to see how they remedy it.
I hope this means that they will print more color-specific hate.
That was always my favorite part of Magic: off-color hate like Lifebane Zombie, Witchstalker, or even Encase in Ice.
I hope this means that they will print more color-specific hate.
That was always my favorite part of Magic: off-color hate like Lifebane Zombie, Witchstalker, or even Encase in Ice.
I agree, But I would like to see more global hate cards like Chill, Warmth, and Story circle. Perish, Hibernation would keep green creatures in check and gives A out against hexproof.
I hope this means that they will print more color-specific hate.
That was always my favorite part of Magic: off-color hate like Lifebane Zombie, Witchstalker, or even Encase in Ice.
I agree, But I would like to see more global hate cards like Chill, Warmth, and Story circle. Perish, Hibernation would keep green creatures in check and gives A out against hexproof.
Fine by me. I think the big thing off-color hate gives is an outlet valve against meta consolidation. If the meta gets too [color], then [card] becomes more powerful.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
true then we wouldnt have seen that much outrage for banning cards that have just been in print for about 3 months, also the lack of artifact hate.
Are Natural State and Fragmentize not good artifact hate?
Ones sorcery speed and the other doesn't hit enough targets in the current meta, so they both are fairly weak when you have to deal with stuff like Aetherworks Marvel and Smuggler's Copter. Plus, to mainboard those you have to take something out to use them. They are pretty dead draws if you go up against something like a creature and you need removal or a creature of your own.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
true then we wouldnt have seen that much outrage for banning cards that have just been in print for about 3 months, also the lack of artifact hate.
Are Natural State and Fragmentize not good artifact hate?
Ones sorcery speed and the other doesn't hit enough targets in the current meta, so they both are fairly weak when you have to deal with stuff like Aetherworks Marvel and Smuggler's Copter. Plus, to mainboard those you have to take something out to use them. They are pretty dead draws if you go up against something like a creature and you need removal or a creature of your own.
exactly took the words out of my mouth. If we had pithing, bolt or mana leak or something like abrupt decay I doubt Smugglers would have been banned. Also the lack of any GY hate is weird.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
Improvise decks got mana leak in a way, at the very least.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Are Natural State and Fragmentize not good artifact hate?
In addition to those not being very good, red, the color of artifact hate, has exactly 0 instant speed artifact answers, and 0 good artifact killing cards. I play a UR deck, not looking to splash W or G, and there's a terrible assortment of artifact answers. They're either overcosted, way over costed, or entirely underwhelming. I think it's so odd to print an artifact heavy block, and give red no real artifact answers. I'm not even asking for a Shattering Spree, just a shatter would be nice.
I hope this means that they will print more color-specific hate.
That was always my favorite part of Magic: off-color hate like Lifebane Zombie, Witchstalker, or even Encase in Ice.
I agree, But I would like to see more global hate cards like Chill, Warmth, and Story circle. Perish, Hibernation would keep green creatures in check and gives A out against hexproof.
I don't really care for cards like that. I feel they punish you too strongly just for playing a particular color. I don't mind "color hate" if it's just a creature or spell that's more efficient against decks employing that color, like the cycles in Magic 2010 (Celestial Purge/Flashfreeze/etc.) and Dragons of Tarkir (Rending Volley/Surge of Righteousness/etc.), but things like Chill and Perish screw over a player just for daring to play a particular color.
They are actually going further away from color-specific hate by phasing out things like Protection from ______ and Landwalk. According to Maro's last column, both of those keywords are on their way out as part of a larger philosophy to not just randomly punish people for playing a color (or the corresponding basic land). I think that if they do swing things back towards being more answer-centric, color will not play a big part of that.
Every problem with the current standard is a direct result from having bad removal. None of these cards are spectacular in any way. Copter would have seen no play if lightning strike or doom blade was in the format. Reflector Mage is only good because there are no ETB creatures. Every creature is a vanilla with some activated cost tacked on. Emrakul would also never have been an issue if there was any kind of graveyard hate.
Look at the bans for Standard in the past. Skullclamp, JTMS, and Academy. ******* copter? Really?
Every problem with the current standard is a direct result from having bad removal. None of these cards are spectacular in any way. Copter would have seen no play if lightning strike or doom blade was in the format. Reflector Mage is only good because there are no ETB creatures. Every creature is a vanilla with some activated cost tacked on. Emrakul would also never have been an issue if there was any kind of graveyard hate.
Look at the bans for Standard in the past. Skullclamp, JTMS, and Academy. ******* copter? Really?
Right. And this is the thread where we discuss Wizards admitting this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
"The pendulum of threats versus answers has swung too far toward the threats, and that has caused problems with our metagame. Our decision to not print enough answer cards also has shown to be a real problem."
Thank christ that they've come to this realization. You have to have a balance for healthy gameplay. When your threats are resilient, generate five for ones, or otherwise relegate answer cards to tier 3 status... that's a problem. Each avenue to play the game needs to be equally represented.
Due to the adoption of a State of Standard thread that includes this subject matter, this thread is locked. -hoser2
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Ramps, Wraths, Bolt, COUNTERSPELL, cards like Ancient Grudge. Better discards...
Spirits
Also, freaking cantrips. Green's draw is literally better than blue's. No wonder thay get samey midrange slugfest interspersed with T4 combo: even if there were good counterspells, there's no blue decks that want 'em. Even Grixis Control basically had to play Glimmer of Genius and Painful Truths for card draw; green gets Oath of Nissa, Tireless Tracker, and Duskwatch Recruiter. I mean, when a midrange deck can outdraw control decks, why bother with anything else? (And let's not even talk about Collected Company. Awesome card, and great even for Standard... if there were good counterspells and there weren't Reflector Mage and all the other ones I mentioned.)
Also, graveyard hate. I know SOI was meant to be the graveyard block, but did we really need to have a total zero answers?
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
I don't have the link right now but Sam Stoddard already admitted the problem with the */*+1 problem and that they were going to work to avoid those (as commonly) onwards, and I think to a certain degree we have seen them starting to fix that with kaladesh and aether revolt abundance of *+1/1 creatures. Also Maro acknwoledge that blue needs better draw (and that glimmer wasn't ideal) just after the kaladesh pro tour and pointed that the next set would have better efforts in that department.
I think Emraukl got banned because they don't have any graveyard hate in the next blocks, so it was easier (and healthier) to just ban it than slipping Tormod's crypt somewhere and risk breaking standard again.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Also has to be said that it's incredibly appropriate for this particular discussion Wish we could give him cookie points.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
That was always my favorite part of Magic: off-color hate like Lifebane Zombie, Witchstalker, or even Encase in Ice.
Fine by me. I think the big thing off-color hate gives is an outlet valve against meta consolidation. If the meta gets too [color], then [card] becomes more powerful.
true then we wouldnt have seen that much outrage for banning cards that have just been in print for about 3 months, also the lack of artifact hate.
“Homo homini lupus est.”
-Chandra Nalaar
Ones sorcery speed and the other doesn't hit enough targets in the current meta, so they both are fairly weak when you have to deal with stuff like Aetherworks Marvel and Smuggler's Copter. Plus, to mainboard those you have to take something out to use them. They are pretty dead draws if you go up against something like a creature and you need removal or a creature of your own.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
exactly took the words out of my mouth. If we had pithing, bolt or mana leak or something like abrupt decay I doubt Smugglers would have been banned. Also the lack of any GY hate is weird.
“Homo homini lupus est.”
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't really care for cards like that. I feel they punish you too strongly just for playing a particular color. I don't mind "color hate" if it's just a creature or spell that's more efficient against decks employing that color, like the cycles in Magic 2010 (Celestial Purge/Flashfreeze/etc.) and Dragons of Tarkir (Rending Volley/Surge of Righteousness/etc.), but things like Chill and Perish screw over a player just for daring to play a particular color.
For global hate cards, I prefer ones that go after particular strategies rather than colors. Things like Engineered Plague, Blood Moon, Stony Silence, and Rest In Peace.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Look at the bans for Standard in the past. Skullclamp, JTMS, and Academy. ******* copter? Really?
Right. And this is the thread where we discuss Wizards admitting this.