MagicMan and Btons - I don't think you have anywhere near enough white sources to be able to reliably get your white cards out in any sort of decent time. I may be wrong, but that's just a gut feeling looking at your lists.
Talking of lists, here's another from the Red Deck Winning podcast that seemed to do well for them...
MagicMan and Btons - I don't think you have anywhere near enough white sources to be able to reliably get your white cards out in any sort of decent time. I may be wrong, but that's just a gut feeling looking at your lists.
Talking of lists, here's another from the Red Deck Winning podcast that seemed to do well for them...
As you can see, the deck splashes B for Yahenni's Expertise. More than 85% of the cards in the entire 75 (MB and SB) can be cast off of it. I needed a sweeper that can get past Selfless Spirit, and the deck isn't running enough colors to run Radiant Flames. Also needed B to recur Scrapheap Scrounger.
Pia's Revolution + Chandra, Torch of Defiance + Indomitable Creativity + Artifacts is insane!!! For every artifact sacked to Creativity, your opponent takes 3 damage if they don't allow you to put those artifacts back into your hand. Chandra's second +1 gives you extra RR mana to cast Creativity for more. Renegade Map is such a great card for this deck because it not only thins the deck, but provides fuel for Key to the City (toss an excess land you don't need) and can recurred with Revolution for more damage later.
Pia's Rev, Chandra, and Creativity seems interesting to work with. Have you thought about the combo interaction with Rev and Bomat courier? That just seems evil - sac it to get the cards and 3 damage, or back to the hand to reload... I'd be interested to see results from this list.
I'm going to go try my Big Red (or alternatively Mono-red Control) tonight. Hope it goes well against the new stuff!
Well, last night was interesting... Took out an Esper Walker Control deck, and a UR Thermo-Thing deck, but struggled against Saheeli Turbo Twin (both games was 1 turn away from winning) and a RW Vehicles deck that used Siege Modification and Start Your Engines (but a bad mulligan decision and some unwise discards to Lightning Axe didn't help!). I think my main deck Towers may go back to Sin Prodders, both for another body and also more library filtering, and I may switch positions of Harnessed Lightnings and Hungry Flames. Either that or Flames main, Shock in the side...
I think that hulk is the #1 last card that should be in this deck, reason being is because your opp always picks the less harmful mode based on the game state. Not to mention, chances are the mode they pick, you needed them to pick the other to win, with that being said, I can understand the pure fun factor of the card but realistically there are better cards that fit this decks game plan and curve. maxing out on cards like hungry flames and collective defiance where you get to burn a creature and the player at the same time, thus gaining tempo to actually burn them out on time and not die. I think flame lash has a serious home in this deck, 4 damage is huge here.
I haven't played in a few weeks but this is what I ran before the bans and will probably be running when I come back to magic, anyway it's at least a discussion point
Shock is the only change I made post rotation, but I'm sure there's more you could make easily. Like I said just food for thought.
EDIT: Maybe this was the wrong place to post this list, it seems like most of you are in the big red style of deck. I'm gonna leave it here though because it does say you wanted a red aggro style decklist.
I think that hulk is the #1 last card that should be in this deck, reason being is because your opp always picks the less harmful mode based on the game state.
It's far from "the last card". In fact, the pressure that it puts on the opponent is what makes it half decent. Chances are if they tell you to draw because they're on such low life, you'll draw in to something to kill them (plus you'll have a 6/6 first striker as well). If they take the hit, yes, sometimes it's only a couple of points, but when put in a deck with GDD, Flamecallers, and Revelers, I've had multiple times where I've hit 10+ damage from the flip.
This is my current list. It's had two outings in the current form, going 3-1 and 3-0-1 so far. I've been eyeing up the Stalker (aka build your own Stormbreath), but not sure where I'd make cuts in my list. Sideboard, maybe, instead of the Castigators? Also not sure of Nahiri's Wrath vs Devour in Flames...
Also, here's another list that the Red Deck Winning podcast took to a 4-1 record in a league. Kind of similar to Btons' deck, with a transform to GDD/Gearhulks in the side.
What about Drownyard Temple for the madness package deck (i.e. my list). They can be pitched whenever and brought back, plus are good value to pitch as a second card to Nahiri's Wrath to increase the number of targets by one, and to some extent, get value of the Devour in Flames too - play it, return it with Flames, pitch it to something else.
I'm also tempted (mildly) by Crumbling Vestige to up the number of pseudo-red sources, given the need to play Chandra TOD as soon as possible, and based on the Karsten math, I need 18 red sources, and only get that with Aether Hubs...
ghirapur orrery is a card you might consider for this kind of deck.
plop this down, play your lands, empty your hand, draw 3 card, win?
I'd actually tried this previously (see the deck list in the original post), but now that the meta is shifting to be either vehicle heavy (which means they benefit from it by dumping their hand quickly) or you play a lot more controlling (and keep cards in your hand, thus not getting the benefit), it fell by the wayside to make space for more applicable cards. I think I took it out for the Castigators in my current list.
That's so interesting that this deck is turning into more of a Big Red kinda deck. I recently was playing around with that sort of deck, though it ended up with a slight black splash. It has a bit of ramp in it, but I think it's a decent start. I haven't put it in any real testing or actual games. It's just something that's been rolling around in my head, a starting point.
I've been playing around with Voices/Reunions + Grafstone ramp, and it's been seriously good in my main deck, so I've imported it here. I'm happy with the results. Having 4 mana on turn 3 or 5/6 mana on turn 4 is pretty good for the deck. Let's me do more impactful things like filling up the GY and having much cheaper Revelers or getting a GDD down faster sending more burn to the face faster.
A card I'm a bit iffy on is Scrapheap Scrounger. It's a holdover from a previous list that also had Prized Amalgam in it for more resiliency. I feel like it needs to be something that can do more to help survive against smaller decks. I'm not sure what that card should be. With the number of card types in my list, I'm kinda leaning towards Scourge Wolf, but mostly because I want to see that card in something.
In the main, all of the burn goes to the face as well as acting as removal. I feel like that's a good G1 strategy. In the sideboard, I'd put more specialized removal, like having Unlicensed Disintegration for large threats or Fatal Push/Lightning Axe if I just need more removal. Even larger threats of my own.
Jon - I'm curious about Combustible Gearhulk. It seems like an incompatible (might be a strong word) card with Goblin Dark-Dwellers. Dark-Dwellers wants you to keep the casting cost low, Gearhulk wants you to have it big. Are you finding Gearhulk to be less impactful than other decks with higher curves? Is it a situation where there's a littler red version that has GDD and one that's a bigger Gearhulk version?
At first, I was trying to splash another color and decided it wasn't worth it, and ended up going down from 22 lands to 18 lands as well as lowering the curve. This deck can have some pretty explosive hands, I've gotten several kills on turn 4 with it.
Scourge Wolf was the card that made me want to build this deck in the first place, and it's been working pretty well so far. I end up getting delirium active surprisingly often, mainly through Bomat Courier being able to discard my hand, while being two different card types going to the graveyard itself. Hope of Ghirapur can also sac itself to put an artifact and creature in the yard as well. Even without delirium, having a 2/2 first strike isn't too bad. I've had games where I swing with a wolf and courier, and I'm able to sac the courier, and cast Invigorated Rampage on the wolf, activating delirium and swinging in for 12.
Skin Invasion was initially only in the deck because I wanted an enchantment to help with delirium, but this card has ended up being one of my favorites in the deck. It has pretty sweet synergy with Hope of Ghirapur and Bomat Courier, and even being able to force opponent's creatures to attack is relevant a lot of the time.
Hope of Ghirapur, like I've mentioned, has a lot of synergy with the deck. You can sac it to activate delirium, or to bring back Skin Invasion. It's one of the few artifacts to pump up Inventor's Apprentice. The actual ability of the card is relevant sometimes, mainly to stop a planeswalker turn, or to stop a fumigate.
Kari Zev's Expertise seems a little strange to run mainboard, but with all the G/B decks, I'm a huge fan of it. The only matchup this card has been really dead for me is against control decks, but having this card against most other decks is just insane. It's a sorcery, so it usually ends up activating delirium when I cast it, and mostly every card in the deck is 2 mana or less, so it can cast everything except Reckless Bushwhacker.
I've been messing around with this list a little more, and I have to say I'm enjoying it. You can scroll up to see my original Big Red (Splash Black) Burn list. Having ramp in the list has been great. It's been so great that it turns out I want more ramp in the list. I've been playing around with some more ramp, and having so much mana early has meant that I've been able to make my madness plays earlier in addition to making other plays earlier too. Here's my current list:
The ramp in this deck feels ssssoooo good! Surprisingly, Vessel of Volatility has been making the deck feel so good in the early game. Having 5 mana on turn 3 is sweet! Being able to Turn 3 Voice/Reunion into a Madness creature or Turn 3 Chandra + 3 mana spell is so awesome. A bonus to adding Vessel to the deck is hitting delirium is even more consistent, which means when I get around to making a sideboard, To the Slaughter and Pick the Brain are much stronger sideboard options than they were previously.
I am loving having the madness cards in the deck. They make Tormenting Voices and Cathartic Reunions feel more like true card advantage. Having the ramp means that madness isn't getting wasted either in the early game. It's great!
Having that ramp in the deck made Walking Ballista in the list much much stronger. I can cast a spell and still have mana left over to add counter(s) to the Ballista. It also makes delirium much more consistent, so there's that too!
As before, main deck burn all kills creatures and goes to the face. I personally think that's what this deck wants the most. Having more efficient removal burn, like Harnessed Lightning seems to belong in the sideboard. I'm looking for a deck to take to MTGO as my main deck, and the way this one is coming together, I might make it the one. I really like it.
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Talking of lists, here's another from the Red Deck Winning podcast that seemed to do well for them...
4 Hanweir Battlements
2 Looming Spires
19 Mountain
Creatures (22)
2 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Insolent Neonate
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Sin Prodder
1 Skyship Stalker
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Spells (11)
4 Shock
3 Harnessed Lightning
4 Incendiary Flow
2 Falkenrath Gorger
3 Galvanic Bombardment
2 Lightning Axe
1 Harnessed Lightning
2 Collective Defiance
1 Destructive Tampering
2 Devour in Flames
2 Goldnight Castigator
Yeah, Jon, I agree with you concerning the deck I posted. I was using btons28's deck as an example on what I thought could be improved with his build. In all honesty, I would probably go Big Red the same as you or more burn centered. Or maybe even better, go WR Humans. That deck is getting a lot of it's power back thanks to the recent bannings. You should check out: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/established-standard/757829-humans?page=8 if you're interested. Also, I made a thread a month and a half ago concerning burn here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-new-card-discussion/765259-introducing-the-family-nalaar-an-r-x-burn-artifact I haven't updated it a while because I had other deck ideas I was working on. If I were to build it today, it'd look something like:
4 Aether Hub
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
8 Mountain
CREATURES
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Scrap Trawler
2 Pia Nalaar
PLANESWALKERS
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Fiery Temper
4 Shock
4 Harnessed Lightning
2 Indomitable Creativity
ARTIFACTS
4 Renegade Map
4 Heart of Kiran
2 Key to the City
ENCHANTMENTS
2 Pia's Revolution
2 Hungry Flames
3 Galvanic Bombardment
2 Collective Defiance
2 Release the Gremlins
3 Kari Zev's Expertise
3 Yahenni's Expertise
As you can see, the deck splashes B for Yahenni's Expertise. More than 85% of the cards in the entire 75 (MB and SB) can be cast off of it. I needed a sweeper that can get past Selfless Spirit, and the deck isn't running enough colors to run Radiant Flames. Also needed B to recur Scrapheap Scrounger.
Pia's Revolution + Chandra, Torch of Defiance + Indomitable Creativity + Artifacts is insane!!! For every artifact sacked to Creativity, your opponent takes 3 damage if they don't allow you to put those artifacts back into your hand. Chandra's second +1 gives you extra RR mana to cast Creativity for more. Renegade Map is such a great card for this deck because it not only thins the deck, but provides fuel for Key to the City (toss an excess land you don't need) and can recurred with Revolution for more damage later.
I'm going to go try my Big Red (or alternatively Mono-red Control) tonight. Hope it goes well against the new stuff!
Here's my list from last night.
2 Blighted Gorge
2 Geier Reach Sanitarium
20 Mountain
Creatures (9)
2 Bedlam Reveler
3 Combustible Gearhulk
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Planeswalkers (4)
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Flame Lash
3 Harnessed Lightning
3 Lightning Axe
4 Fiery Temper
4 Shock
4 Tormenting Voice
Artifacts (3)
3 Dynavolt Tower
1 Release the Gremlins
2 Nahiri's Wrath
2 Ghirapur Orrery
2 Goldnight Castigator
2 Bedlam Reveler
3 Incendiary Flow
3 Hungry Flames
19 Mountain
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
Creatures: 25
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Furyblade Vampire
2 Ravenous Bloodseeker
3 Sin Prodder
4 Incorrigle Youths
4 Lathnu Hellion
4 Incendiary Flow
Instant: 11
3 Lightning Axe
4 Shock
4 Fiery Temper
Shock is the only change I made post rotation, but I'm sure there's more you could make easily. Like I said just food for thought.
EDIT: Maybe this was the wrong place to post this list, it seems like most of you are in the big red style of deck. I'm gonna leave it here though because it does say you wanted a red aggro style decklist.
4 Hanweir Garrison
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
3 Skyship Stalker
4 Sin Prodder
Sorceries:
4 Incendiary Flow
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Shock
4 Hungry Flames
Planeswalkers:
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Lands:
2 Looming Spires
4 Hanweir Battlements
19 Mountain
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Impetuous Devils
2 Release the Gremlins
2 Collective Defiance
2 Flame Lash
2 Lightning Axe
1 Destructive Tampering
3 Devour in Flames
2 Mirrorpool
2 Aether Hub
2 Blighted Gorge
2 Geier Reach Sanitarium
16 Mountain
Creatures (12)
2 Bedlam Reveler
3 Combustible Gearhulk
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Sin Prodder
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Spells (20)
2 Flame Lash
3 Harnessed Lightning
3 Incendiary Flow
4 Lightning Axe
4 Fiery Temper
4 Tormenting Voice
1 Devour in Flames
2 Bedlam Reveler
2 Goldnight Castigator
2 Nahiri's Wrath
2 Release the Gremlins
3 Hungry Flames
3 Shock
Also, here's another list that the Red Deck Winning podcast took to a 4-1 record in a league. Kind of similar to Btons' deck, with a transform to GDD/Gearhulks in the side.
4 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Brazen Scourge
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Akoum Firebird
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Shock
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Incendiary Flow
4 Collective Defiance
Lands (24)
3 Hanweir Battlements
21 Mountain
1 Hanweir Battlements
2 Release the Gremlins
4 Hungry Flames
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Combustible Gearhulk
What about Drownyard Temple for the madness package deck (i.e. my list). They can be pitched whenever and brought back, plus are good value to pitch as a second card to Nahiri's Wrath to increase the number of targets by one, and to some extent, get value of the Devour in Flames too - play it, return it with Flames, pitch it to something else.
I'm also tempted (mildly) by Crumbling Vestige to up the number of pseudo-red sources, given the need to play Chandra TOD as soon as possible, and based on the Karsten math, I need 18 red sources, and only get that with Aether Hubs...
plop this down, play your lands, empty your hand, draw 3 card, win?
3 Bedlam Reveler
3 Bloodhall Priest
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
Planeswalker 1
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
4 Corrupted Grafstone
Instants 8
4 Shock
4 Fiery Temper
Sorceries 11
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Collective Defiance
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Drownyard Temple
4 Foreboding Ruins
10 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp
I've been playing around with Voices/Reunions + Grafstone ramp, and it's been seriously good in my main deck, so I've imported it here. I'm happy with the results. Having 4 mana on turn 3 or 5/6 mana on turn 4 is pretty good for the deck. Let's me do more impactful things like filling up the GY and having much cheaper Revelers or getting a GDD down faster sending more burn to the face faster.
A card I'm a bit iffy on is Scrapheap Scrounger. It's a holdover from a previous list that also had Prized Amalgam in it for more resiliency. I feel like it needs to be something that can do more to help survive against smaller decks. I'm not sure what that card should be. With the number of card types in my list, I'm kinda leaning towards Scourge Wolf, but mostly because I want to see that card in something.
In the main, all of the burn goes to the face as well as acting as removal. I feel like that's a good G1 strategy. In the sideboard, I'd put more specialized removal, like having Unlicensed Disintegration for large threats or Fatal Push/Lightning Axe if I just need more removal. Even larger threats of my own.
Jon - I'm curious about Combustible Gearhulk. It seems like an incompatible (might be a strong word) card with Goblin Dark-Dwellers. Dark-Dwellers wants you to keep the casting cost low, Gearhulk wants you to have it big. Are you finding Gearhulk to be less impactful than other decks with higher curves? Is it a situation where there's a littler red version that has GDD and one that's a bigger Gearhulk version?
4 Bomat Courier
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Village Messenger
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Scourge Wolf
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
3 Hope of Ghirapur
2 Inventor's Apprentice
4 Invigorated Rampage
3 Kari Zev's Expertise
2 Built To Smash
2 Shock
Artifacts:
1 Key to the City
Enchantments:
2 Skin Invasion
Lands:
18 Mountain
1 Mountain
3 Lathnu Hellion
2 Goldnight Castigator
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Key to the City
2 Release the Gremlins
2 Magmatic Chasm
3 Lightning Axe
At first, I was trying to splash another color and decided it wasn't worth it, and ended up going down from 22 lands to 18 lands as well as lowering the curve. This deck can have some pretty explosive hands, I've gotten several kills on turn 4 with it.
Scourge Wolf was the card that made me want to build this deck in the first place, and it's been working pretty well so far. I end up getting delirium active surprisingly often, mainly through Bomat Courier being able to discard my hand, while being two different card types going to the graveyard itself. Hope of Ghirapur can also sac itself to put an artifact and creature in the yard as well. Even without delirium, having a 2/2 first strike isn't too bad. I've had games where I swing with a wolf and courier, and I'm able to sac the courier, and cast Invigorated Rampage on the wolf, activating delirium and swinging in for 12.
Skin Invasion was initially only in the deck because I wanted an enchantment to help with delirium, but this card has ended up being one of my favorites in the deck. It has pretty sweet synergy with Hope of Ghirapur and Bomat Courier, and even being able to force opponent's creatures to attack is relevant a lot of the time.
Hope of Ghirapur, like I've mentioned, has a lot of synergy with the deck. You can sac it to activate delirium, or to bring back Skin Invasion. It's one of the few artifacts to pump up Inventor's Apprentice. The actual ability of the card is relevant sometimes, mainly to stop a planeswalker turn, or to stop a fumigate.
Kari Zev's Expertise seems a little strange to run mainboard, but with all the G/B decks, I'm a huge fan of it. The only matchup this card has been really dead for me is against control decks, but having this card against most other decks is just insane. It's a sorcery, so it usually ends up activating delirium when I cast it, and mostly every card in the deck is 2 mana or less, so it can cast everything except Reckless Bushwhacker.
In the board, I sort of go a little higher curve against control decks, siding in a Mountain, 3 Lathnu Hellion, 2 Goldnight Castigator, and a Chandra, Torch of Defiance.
Overall, the deck is by no means amazing, but it's been really fun for me, and it's surprising how many random wins the deck can pull out.
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Bloodhall Priest
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
2 Incorrigible Youths
3 Walking Ballista
Planeswalkers 2
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Vessel of Volatility
Artifacts 3
3 Corrupted Grafstone
Instants 7
4 Fiery Temper
3 Shock
Sorceries 9
2 Cathartic Reunion
3 Collective Defiance
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Drownyard Temple
4 Foreboding Ruins
9 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp
The ramp in this deck feels ssssoooo good! Surprisingly, Vessel of Volatility has been making the deck feel so good in the early game. Having 5 mana on turn 3 is sweet! Being able to Turn 3 Voice/Reunion into a Madness creature or Turn 3 Chandra + 3 mana spell is so awesome. A bonus to adding Vessel to the deck is hitting delirium is even more consistent, which means when I get around to making a sideboard, To the Slaughter and Pick the Brain are much stronger sideboard options than they were previously.
I am loving having the madness cards in the deck. They make Tormenting Voices and Cathartic Reunions feel more like true card advantage. Having the ramp means that madness isn't getting wasted either in the early game. It's great!
Having that ramp in the deck made Walking Ballista in the list much much stronger. I can cast a spell and still have mana left over to add counter(s) to the Ballista. It also makes delirium much more consistent, so there's that too!
As before, main deck burn all kills creatures and goes to the face. I personally think that's what this deck wants the most. Having more efficient removal burn, like Harnessed Lightning seems to belong in the sideboard. I'm looking for a deck to take to MTGO as my main deck, and the way this one is coming together, I might make it the one. I really like it.